Discussion of Benefit Relations
Relations of benefit are weird. Sometimes it they are really cool, and both partners are energized and drawn to each other. Both partners find each other surprisingly interesting. Although I have also heard that these relations are not actually good and can go very sour.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
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-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Discussion of Benefit Relations
Am I the only one who feels that the descriptions of this relationship are somewhat inaccurate?
I feel that it is the other way around - ENFps seem to be solving my problems, and I try to solve those of ESTps. Furthermore, it seems to me that ENFps try to give merelated help, whereas I try to give
related help to ESTps.
Energy-wise, I always feel revved up when I am with either benefit relation. Feels similar to activity partners, but always with an underlying hint of awkwardness (identical for both ESTps and ENFps).
ENTj
"A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
- Thomas E Lawrence
I have definitely seen the "one-sidedness" of benefit relations, where I am in awe of INFps and (at least one) ISTp is in awe of me. On the other hand, I can be revved-up by anyone who can hold a conversation with me (perhaps that is a poor way to say "good Fe, intentional or not").
Perhaps relationships of benefit lose their effect once you've spent a good bit of time with your dual.
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
@pezzonovante: I wonder if you might have the benefit ring the wrong way around? I only say so since the first post of yours looks to me like you think it's (in theory) the ESTp benefiting the ENTj, the ENTj benefiting the ENFp, etc., and are responding to this saying that the opposite is true in practice. If that is the case, then the way you're saying it is in practice is how it is in the theory also... apologies if that doesn't make sense.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
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Actually, I'm not referring to romance. The ISTp who's in awe of me is another heterosexual guy. The INFps were women and brought on thoughts of romance, but it never went anywhere. Although I suspect an INFp man is the professor of my favorite class...Originally Posted by istpunk
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Discussion of Benefit Relations
Reading the descriptions of the relations of benefit, it seems like it might be an unpleasant interaction. However, I am finding myself getting along really well with a couple people now who i suspect are benefactors (ESEs), of course this is assuming i'm IEE. Not really sure about relationships with my beneficiaries (LIEs) because I dont know that type too well and I'm not sure that I know any closely.
How do relations of benefit feel? I am having some difficulty understanding this from the descriptions.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
I've never really felt a benefit relationship, despite my dad being ESFj. If anything, our relationship was a reverse benefit, where he tried to please me more than I did him. hmmmmmmmmmmm
Yeah that's kind of how I feel with a relatively new ESE friend. But I guess it makes sense--the benefactor likes to give, and if the beneficiary doesn't need the benefactor, that's when things go sour?
There's another girl I suspect was ESE from my previous job, who would always display a lot of positive Fe whenever she would see me and we got along really well and I think fondly of her. However, we never quite felt like bosom friends. At work, sort of. Never outside of work. Maybe a little too much Fe for me. . .not enough Fi.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
I think it can go especially bad when the beneficiary tries to help the benefactor as this is trying to usurp the benefactor of their position of "high helper" and put the relationship on equal footing and so the benefactor must squash this impertinent attempt asap.
sweet! wow I'm pretty lucky to have ESEs as my benefactors, huh? The ultimate caregivers. . .I'll feel less guilty about accepting their favors then.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
No they are not.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
My relation of benefits are pretty correct, and others who I type seem to have these pretty close to description too. Though of course I'm not suggesting you're SLE. I wonder why yours doesn't work though... My dad's an ESE too. It comes across more like conflict and he is always trying to please me, asking me how I'm doing directly, pretty pushy guy though friendly, and I always make sure I'm not critical of him or else his Fe side gets all anal, so you can say my Fi helps out pretty well in these circumstances, but I feel like it helps me a lot more than it does him. He never understands why I don't want to include myself in stimulating conversations or group situations with him, and why I never get excited about anything. I'm too exhausted by him, and his really directly bright optimism, full of fake emotion, same feeling I get from a lot of Fe dominants no offense. You guys are just really too much, and I've spent a lot of time crying about Fe-EJ crap when I was younger, because it is truly negatively impacting as a vulnerable function. My dad has come a long way in trying to reach me though... Relations of conflict suck. I guess Fe types were just born to interact on a more powerful and friendly level, something I can't handle. I say every relation of mine has been positively successful at points in my life, except for with ESEs.
What do u mean by correct? Your whole post is kind of confusing actually. . .why SLE??
ESE is IEE's benefactor no?
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
From observation of the few i've known, I don't think IEE-ESE is the worst type of benefit relation. They both generally try to be nice people so that seems to help them get on in first place.
so what's a typical benefactor-beneficiary relationship like then?
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
atm i'm not sure how to summarise the typical benefactor-beneficiary relation, except referring to the descriptions already present on the socionic sites - kinda busy and a bit tired blah blah blah.
To contrast with another benefactor/beneficiary and explain some more what I mean.. some LII's can be quite rude and obnoxious people, so that can be a bit annoying to commence a beneficiary/benefactor interaction...socionics aside it helps to have something in common in someone or that they are approachable in some way before the relationship interaction as it's generally described can commence and all that.
I suppose the approachable thing I mention can help IEE-ESE to interact in first place, of course can be zillion other reasons to interact with someone (like they're hot).
I get along really well with ESEs too. I have lots of ESE friends. Honestly, if there's a problem, it involves an LII who doesn't like me and helps the ESE "see the light" about me. But generally we get along great.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
SLE is ESEs benefactor I think. I mean correct as in it fits really well with the various relation of benefit descriptions. Since this is a Soc forum, I thought I would talk about my conflictor too. Didn't want to find a new thread, kind of lazy but nice way to go about it anyway. Need to write more about my beneficiaries and benefactors though...
I'm also wondering if Arctures fits with the ILI-ESE conflict, since I don't think he's an IEE. Probably a little confused with all the opinions going around, looking for something that fits like I was, looking for a system that appears stable like Socionix galleries.
I'm SEI. I've had romantic relationships with my benefactor EII. I have always felt 4 things:
- We have some sort of connection
- I have to take a break from them very often to recharge and find myself again, I start to feel that I'm loosing myself in their company
- For some reason I stick around
- They dont really understand what I'm saying, although they are very understanding people, or I dont like the response I'm getting.
To summarize: The relationship is very confusing. But I like EII (women) very much.
Of course, these things might not be related to the relationship of benefit itself, but rather to the specific type EII, I dont know.
Anyway, it has caused a lot of pain.
I know a few benefit couples that seem to get along rather well. They're all extroverted.
I think my step dad is my benefactor because whenever I have a problem he gets that way too and it just makes mad about that instead of the problem, so by the time I'm done talking with him, I'm even more angry than I was before. lol.
*insert witty comment here*
My cousin who is an Fi-ESFp has an odd way of trying to protect me in ways i never asked or wanted to be protected. This poses a problem because shes convinced that Im weaker than her or something and I have no way of proving the contrary since all her arguements rest on
benefit (particularly between extroverts)
Anyone with tons of first hand experience or observation about this? What I want to know is if this intertype relation is one that tends to just drain all of your energy away... Like it's too fun and you physically/mentally burn out.
I guess I could roughly phrase it as "Activity with an unbalanced feeling".
I've had experiences as both Beneficiary and Benefactor. In either case, things feel very unbalanced. As a Beneficiary, I wound up feeling guilty for constantly requesting Ne insights from my then-close EII friend, and then having my Si advice seem kind of... lame... in comparison. As a Benefactor, it's great fun have someone respond so much to your Fe, but it just feels really strange having your Creative function in the "on" position for as long as it tends to be there as with Benefit.
It still contrasts with Supervision (and I've been on both sides of that too). As a Supervisor, you're just totally yourself, and wind up stomping all over your Supervisee totally without realising it or getting any signals. So when your Supervisee is like "You been stomping all over me bro" it's out of the blue and a bit "What."
EDIT
I could see it being draining for Extravert pairs. For me as an Introvert, Activity at least tends to run into problems because Activators are very attractive friends, and you normally hit it off great. Sometimes it can be really grating because you wind up burning things that aren't fuel. I find I get irritated at my LII friends if we interact for too much for too long, which it is always tempting to do.
I was dating one for a while. an IEE
Yeah it was really draining, but in a good way. We would just talk non-stop for hours. She didn't get drained by it though, and she did more of the taking. On several occasion I even mentioned being mentally drained. She didn't seem to experience it though.
based on my experience as a beneficiary, I wonder if the draining effect of activity relations has to do with the role-demonstrative dynamic. Like the one demonstrating it kind of coaxes you into focusing on it, but since they aren't directly focusing on it, it's not as uncomfortable as being around someone with it in their ego. This is opposed to someone who ignores your role all together, relaxing you.
Perhaps because she was reciting known information and you were learning something new? Using your brain to process information and focus on things tends to make you pretty tired.
Anyway, just a thought.
It's possible
She talked a lot about her various interests and thoughts about things in general, and I'd usually step in and try to explain it. That's basically what we always talked about, but always on various topics, though socionics was a major one. lol
She would always change the topic.
I'd just see her rambling off into a different direction, and in my head I'm like "noooo waaait!" Occaionally we would battle for the 'floor' to speak, once in a while talking over the other. I think that's a general extro-extro thing.
This all makes tons of sense.
Um, we used to battle over Si and Se stuff, but now we seem to "get it". I can appreciate the Si fwiw to me (particularly when I'm sick or just totally drained) and offer validation for what he has to offer. And he knows my default is that I'm gonna be Se about shit and that's gotta be cool. And when I'm lost in Si-sickland and say I just need a kick in pants, he can do it.
I've tried to understand how Ni vs Ne played out in our relationship. I'm still not sure, but I think some of it might have had to do with our totally incompatible world views. From my pov, she had a very unrealistic outlook on life. She always wanted the ideal of everything. Everything had o be the best and she'd never settle for less, and she always emphasized settling and as terrible thing. I agreed with her that settling is not a good thing and you should always be on the look out for greener pastures, but the amount she emphasized it was detrimental the way I saw it. Sometimes the ideal scenario is unattainable and you should take what you can get. Every time I tried to make this point, she'd turn around and say "I'll never settle." I'm not saying you should settle, I'm saying that when you're dealt cards you have to use what you get.
I tried to reduce this to Ni vs Ne ideology. Maybe being Ne base, she just focused on finding something better out in the world, and Ni is focused on the idea that situations come and go and there's really nothing you can do about it.
The thing was that I agreed with what she was saying. I myself have a lot of rosy ideal life circumstance that I'd like to reach, but I'm pushing myself to get there in a realistic manner, imo. I'm taking what I have in front of me and using it to hopefully reach the stars, but I've accepted that I probably won't accomplish everything that I want in the way I want because that's just how reality works. The way I see it, shes just trying to run away from reality and refuses to come to terms with it.
She's just setting herself up for disappointed, which she has described to me that she is very often disappointed. She says she has a lot of expectations, and things rarely turn out the way she was thinking it would.
YES. You totally get where they're coming from... but it's not as simple as all of that. Or much simpler, depending on the situation.
Benefit is overrated. It's basically just another one of the awkward relations that don't lead to anything. I don't think I've ever come across an INFp that "benefitted" me the way the descriptions say they should. The overwhelming sentiment I get from being around them is "what is your POINT?!".
Yeah, i've had a number of benefit interactions with people. My mom (likely Si-ESE), a good friend from work (Fe-ESE), Ashton, to name a few.
And I have to say I do relate to a lot of what was said. I get very drained by extended interaction with both my mom and my ESE friend. I mean, I have a good time while we're at it (well, my mom and I can clash eventually over Fe/Fi matters, but that might also be parent-related not type-related, overall we get along).
With Ashton, I feel like he activates me in conversation, but yeah in a sort of unbalanced way like Gul mentioned. I have noticed that we start out talking animatedly, then he sort of winds down sooner than I do, but in the end I realize I feel very drained too.
Maybe it's that the beneficiaries feel drained sooner than the benefactors?
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
No but, i feel that way with my benefactors vs beneficiaries.
I could say the same thing about myself too actually (what you said above).
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
My ex was more of the social type. It could be. I haven't had a lot of experience with SLEs, so I don't know what it would be like the other way around. All I can say is that they're usually fun to joke around with. I feel charged around them, and I would imagine that they would wear me out too, but idk maybe i'd just stay charged.
i find a good connection with relations of benefit. i notice though, that we tend to drift toward work topics, both with LSE and EIE.
the benefactor gets more out of the relation that the beneficiary, it's sort of counter intuitive. you'd think based on the words benefactor and beneficiary, the beneficiary would get more, but it's the reverse.
Azeroffs, you wrote some interesting things about Ne vs Ni, described it well. Ne does tend to create snapshots...moments where everything is perfect lol. being static, we hold on to these, convinced that they will come again. Ni, being dynamic, sees that there is perfection only in looking back and forward and time and seeing that everything is the way it's supposed to be. the other thing about Ne leading is that a lot of different possibilities are laterally developed. some of these lead nowhere but are pretty when they go off like fireworks...others become something more over time. others still become something for awhile and then melt away. Ne leading wants to move forward bringing all possibilities with him in a vertical move. Ni doesn't take the firework....only the things that are pulled into the vortex. to my way of thinking, Ni misses out on some pretty cool stuff....maybe stuff that ends up going somewhere in a parallel universe. you never know what's going to end up being important....even if you are Ni leading.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
I know of three extroverted beneficiary couples.
ILEs think I'm weird and/or like me. I'm the same toward SEEs.
x
As someone said: the benefactor thinks "beneficiary, you are a good guy/girl but a bit stupid"
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp
DCNH: Dominant
--> perhaps Normalizing
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
i'm curious about benefit because the descriptions of it seem weirdly specific compared to other descriptions. my guess is that what happens is probably more fluid and not necessarily like a step-by-step thing like what is described, and that the details depend on the types involved.
just based on function positioning, i think its something like this:
-beneficiaries try to help their benefactors because they can see help is needed with their base function, which they are happy to provide.
-beneficiaries can't provide benefactors with the the benefactor's DS and as they become aware of this they see it as a "request." i suppose the behavior that looks like issuing a request would just be your typical DS expressing behavior?
i have no idea what the "social" thing means.
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