Curious.
How would an INFp (male) and ESTp (female) relationship work?
Curious.
Good.
{If the male is secure and comfortable letting the female lead in non conventional gendered ways, it could work out. Male would also have to concede to the fact she may be more capable and competent than him. He should understand that when she acts robotic at times, it does not mean she feels any less than him, and to be open to her way of language and helping him. If he is not to prideful, and remains conscientious to her hidden vulnerabilities, it could work out.
IEI are the manipulative ones, people don't recognize that. Usually they are just trying to hide and cover for personal shortcomings, yet this is hard for SLE to see, being so ST focused.
They need to have authentic communication in person preferably, to avoid miscommunication and misunderstanding on both sides. This is a dual that works well up close in person, not at a distance.
SLE female needs to respect IEI space even if she thinks she is doing that. That way IEI can "wander" out in the world (day dream, meander) and still have a place to come home to without the drama. If SLE grip to tightly IEI male will start to become shifty as he attempts to ethically manipulate his woman, teaching her in roundabout ways that leave her puzzled.
IEI needs to trust and open up to SLE woman as she has much to teach and offer of herself and the SLE needs to respect his efforts at self improvement.
Rocky starts for these results types. If they can get on the same page it really looks like heaven. IEI gets to bring someone stargazing and SLE gets someone who loves them, needs them, and can help them navigate pretty much anything. }
That's what I've seen. :/
I think it could work out quite well provided they both are confident in their own abilities, of comparable intellect, on similar paths, and of course, mature. In a strong relationship, there's no leader and egos are in the back seat; the partner that takes point usually depends on the situation. Partner roles and interaction should be analysed separately from careers, domestic chores and measures of individual success. How a relationship will work is as varied as DNA so one cannot estimate success based on the success or failure of other partnerships.
a.k.a. I/O
INFp and ESTp are duals.
Potential problem with dual relatioships, they are all Sensor - Intuitor partnerships. They share an emotional bonding but live mentally in different worlds.
Thats my own expirience with alpha NT - alpha SF bondings.
By Stratiyevskaya
Link: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
An example from life of an IEI-SLE couple: "She (SLE) has arrived to the music conservatory's graduation ceremony of her IEI partner in everyday work clothes, conventional business dress and boots, without flowers to present them to her IEI partner and his graduate advisor. She didn't have the time to stop by home to change her outfit - didn't think of this in advance. She didn't bother to put on makeup or do her hair. And of course, it did not occur to her to arrange for a celebration in honor of his graduation. However, she did remember to criticize him for his mediocre performance at the final concert, and the "C" mark that he has gotten for his graduate work: he's put so much effort into it and the result was less than modest, a C with so many difficulties. She didn't forgive him this mediocre success, while he has never forgiven her for her offhand and dismissive attitude towards such an important event in his life. And in less than a week they parted. After the concert, he went out to visit some of his friends. Then, a week later, he gathered his things and filed for a divorce. She thought that after getting his diploma he has grown arrogant and pretentious, and therefore no longer saw her as an equal to him partner. On the average, this wasn't too far from the truth: he didn't consider her to be someone sensitive and considerate enough to be a match for him. In some sense he has decided to take revenge on her for her rude and offhand approach to such an important event in his life. He tried to talk with her about it, but she again didn't understand him: "Who cares if he's gotten a diploma. That's nothing exceptional. He should try to find a job with this certificate. There are so many musicians around ... Now there's one more." From her point of view, it was too early to celebrate - with his specialty it wasn't clear whether it's better to even have a diploma. Additionally, she was afraid that his new requirements will lead to even further disappointments for which she will have to pay with her labor, her patience, and material support. But none of this has happened for he has simply left her. This new stage of him has coincided with a search for a new environment that is more accepting and conductive towards his bearing in life.
i wish more people would recognize this. it's hush-hush that intuition is merely compensation for a lack of "sensoric" qualities (real objects and experiences). it's akin to playing poker with a poor hand and making it by on a mean bluff alone. it moves you in inexplicable ways. good and badOriginally Posted by wacey
Sounds much like using Te-demonstrative against Te-PoLR of IEI, to me....she did remember to criticize him for his mediocre performance at the final concert, and the "C" mark that he has gotten for his graduate work: he's put so much effort into it and the result was less than modest, a C with so many difficulties. She didn't forgive him this mediocre success...
...There are so many musicians around ... Now there's one more.
And I see also a lot of Fi-devaluing.
But I think we shall not generalize. Some people are jerks and other people are kind.
People of every type can be jerks, imo.
Is this really type-related?
Doesn't happen irl – in the vast majority of cases.
Most SLE women look for an "equal", and they see that rather in a fellow Beta ST than an IEI; a big reason for this is the gender roles. SLE women tend to feel not as "feminine" generally, so they are going to look for a man who is at least just as "masculine" and strong as them, or more. And that is usually a fellow Beta ST. Besides that, SLE women are unlikely going to meet an IEI male, because of different lifestyles and the fact IEI men are not as common as other types (in my estimation).
Having said all that, if a female SLE and male IEI actually fall in love and get together, the usual duality dynamic for those two types should ensue, with certain gender roles-related alterations; like the SLE female not being as aggressively pursuing the IEI as the men stereotypically do, and the IEI man not being as clearly sexually submissive (though they might be).
Never implied that Herzy. Never implied butch females nor pansy males. Many of these ideas I spoke of come from a SLE female. You don't need to automatically take the contrary position. There is merit im what I've said its not just empty theory I pulled out of my ass.
What I said also had some advice for more unhealthy variations, which is totally possible.
Olimpia and I are not affiliated with each other and I do not endorse her ideas on this topic. With all due respect much of what she says is not based on her experience, only pet thoeries.
Have a specific case in mind when asking this? I often see members here generalize a question to then tailor broad results to the individual scenario. If you have an example that you wonder about we could try it the other way around!If not the answer is, it works as usual duality, plainly, depending how society approves/the couple withstands the pressure when you practically have gender role reversal there.
From my experience SLE women are definitely tough and presevering but not like a butch lesbian as people here usually imply. I find them far more receptive and cunning/smarter than their male counterparts most of the time. Some (not all of them) might have something tomboyish about them, but not in a way it is very in your face. I do find they somehow wear the pants in their relationships but they are more like cat women, very independet and strong. I find some SLE women are like tough and hot business women, knowing what they want.
I also think it is bullshit to assume that SLE women IEI males cannot communicate the same way as with switched genders, duality makes no exception because of gender (though gender roles could stop certain rather insecure individuals from pursuing a relationship). Duality ensures you can really be yourself. It's probably better to get to know some SLE women irl before making generalisations, they are as diverse as other types and it might surprise you that some people you wouldn't have thought were actually SLEs. Especially SLE-Tis are way more ambiguous than the 'obvious' SLE-Se subs.
Ni can definitely try to steer someone/influence someone indirectly, but I find most SLEs do what they want anyways, lol. I am not sure if manipulative is the right word though, it's probably just an inherent trait of Ni people.
I get that now. Its not the norm.
If you want objective description stay away from Stratiyevskaya. She is the most convoluted socionist there is. She lumps all the bad qualities that some representative has possessed into a whole.
(God, those Holographical panoramic people think they are holistic when they just mutilate data to a point where there is no return. It is irreversible process, I tell ya. It still escapes me how it can be holistic if it can not go both ways because it is like using blinders but I digress.)
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I cant think of a word for it.
Manipulation is learned behaviour that any type may adopt. INFps are observers that seem to be preoccupied a lot with image, fitting-in and defence; any attempts at influence or manipulation would likely be in support of these preoccupations, and is often nothing more than a strategic bluff - it wouldn't be unusual for them to use silence or a smile to fake having an actual opinion. SLEs usually have clearer pictures of what they want so would tend more to actively manipulate in order to obtain something, but this would not normally be their first course of action.
a.k.a. I/O
What you stated is for less than optimal IEI or those who are really self oriented, not all INFPs, you also make it sound like ESTP/SLE is the one to suffer through this, this is a bullshit response you made
wacey is a looney, probably like other INFJs that have overly complex ideas about socionics to wrap people in their pseudo-mysticism, searching on the internet, they seem to think they are the most special breeds with the right things to say
You do know it's a translated story done by a nutjob making up random stories to illustrate a point
I like your generalizations and talking like you think you understand woman, like placing them in a box and presuming they all behave the same way especially ESTP women. So basically people tend to like those with similar personalities, isn't that enlightening? It gets a little boring and limiting when that happens in my opinion
ESTP women aren't common either. And INFP and ESTP are individuals, come from different backgrounds, do not behave the same within their group, and are on different pages of their life that influences how the relationship will continue, heck even Socionics page describes duality in the same way that it works best if they have some things in common/moving towards similar goalsBesides that, SLE women are unlikely going to meet an IEI male, because of different lifestyles and the fact IEI men are not as common as other types (in my estimation).
What is with people presuming INFP men as Yes Men or Super Passive and ESTP women as being in charge using her force of will to control people? Those quirks might be true for some, and they may be happening because the other person has zero problem with that through a certain history of trust or understanding. You make ESTP women sound like they're the bosses, they would make superb military leaders or CEOs! if that's the case why don't they start wars or terrorism like men do or handle stockholder takeovers? Why is it that men are the ones who spread violence more than 75%+ of the time than women are?
Having said all that, if a female SLE and male IEI actually fall in love and get together, the usual duality dynamic for those two types should ensue, with certain gender roles-related alterations; like the SLE female not being as aggressively pursuing the IEI as the men stereotypically do, and the IEI man not being as clearly submissive (though they might be).
I've met INFP men of different types with different women. One is a bitchboy to an horrid looking ENTJ woman with no filter, another is a spineless wimp with a ISFP beast hog hungering for the next donut, another is a gay flamer dry humping who likes public exhibiting this behavior to a gay ISFP, another likes to play as a pseudo-drunk weed Caribbean pirate while going for women of similar personality which is a piss boring choice, another is a whiney basement dweller jerking off to furry porn - everyone's different
can we use the 3 letter codes, I want to be able to follow this slapfight but I'm not entirely sure whats going on
i think you're using mbti INFP = IEI, which is correct, but I think commonly misunderstood, so I want to be explicit about it
This is an interesting combination. I don't know any female SLEs offline, but have talked to a few on the forum about their dating preferences. My observations:
SLEs of both genders prefer to actively court and pursue their partners. They like a challenge, and will be attracted to shy, inexperienced people - but not people who they think they can walk over. A male IEI probably doesn't have to do much to attract his dual, in fact, except be in the right place at the right time. Discover locations where female SLEs are likely to hang out. Be there. A few drinks in her and it should happen.
The biggest hindrance to duality is that duals tend to have very different interests, and thus often do not move in the same social circles.
You will need to get out of your comfort zone if you want to meet them. For a male IEI, that might mean taking up a martial art. For a female SLE, that might mean attending classical music concerts. And so on.
okay, you made your point.
colloquially speaking there are definitely negative connotations attached to the word "manipulative" but I think any form of indirect influence could be categorized as "manipulative" which may be something as simple as praising someone in an area you think they've got potential in, such as telling them they're a good writer, which way may or may not be entirely true since you've only read a handful of pieces written by them, but the positive current underlying your words may positively influence their behavior. so you've got a point there, how that "manipulative" behavior manifests would most definitely depend on the individual Ni-ego and their upbringing and values -- perhaps "indirectly influential" would work in place of "manipulative"?
It's not merely, but yes it does try to make up for lacking of sensing plus logic.
Sure this works.
Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love is a good example of an IEI male-SLE female partnership. The SLE will pursue the IEI aggressively.
If you read about the love story between Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love, it was Courtney who developed a crush on Kurt first and then she ended up making all the moves, and Kurt was doubtful initially but he eventually became receptive to her advances.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...-courtney-love
INFp male/ESTp female straight people duality can happen very easily I think.
This attractive estp woman at toys r us once kept kind of flirting with me/talking to me/asking me questions even after I tried avoiding her three times. Now I am really super shy around most people but for some reason I felt comfortable around her. She wanted my opinion about everything, and I helped her buy stuff for her daughter's b-day party. She just sorta bluntly and confidently/defiantly kept pursuing me, paying no attention at all of my attempts to ignore her. It was so cute, and I could tell that she liked me and what I had to say. If I was into women and if she wasn't already married, I would have asked for her number really easily. She did all the initiation but once I got comfortable (which I quickly did) I would have easily just 'been the man' and seduced her with my masculinity. And then it would fit more naturally gendered patterns. I'm no einstein but I'd wager that's how it generally goes down.
To add: it was interesting/amusing just how 'oblivious' this woman was to my natural IEI passive-ness that yes, has a huge tendency to turn most women off. It's not that the passiveness turned her on she was just oblivious/whatever about it and wanted to talk to me, so she just kept chasing me around the store until we had a conversation lol. Just sorta 'okay whatever' about it, and I know if I was straight, it would just kind of um unlock or something in me to be more dominant because well, I'm still a guy and she's still a woman as herzy said.
She suddenly sounds attractive for some reason. I relate to the thing about being comfortable to the point you could easily become masculine or in my case ,assertive, I get very energised with good friends and family, however, I doabt I'm an IEI.
Male INFp lays down on back. Female ESTp sits on his face.
Yes. By understanding the expectations of one another and respecting it. Don't block. Don't be hardheaded. When.you.started becoming hard headed and not willing to go mid way, then.well, conflict rises
SLE women often also end up ESI males..
But it's so hard not to be hard headed.
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