<3's you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Um, I'm not good at VI, I just had to say that <3 thing...O_O
<3's you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Um, I'm not good at VI, I just had to say that <3 thing...O_O
YAY!!!!
*worship*
I say Beta, based on lyrics.
Adios is teh cool.
He also has a soft look, maybe an Ethical type?
he does not look soft, he is what your typical depressed logical type looks like.Originally Posted by ishysquishy
he does not look soft, he is what your typical depressed logical type looks like.
"He does not look like a depressed logical type, he is what your gentle, non-obtrusive type looks like."
Look at his facial expressions, they are soft. No severity.
typical non-INFp replyhe does not look soft, he is what your typical depressed logical type looks like.
"He does not look like a depressed logical type, he is what your gentle, non-obtrusive type looks like."
Look at his facial expressions, they are soft. No severity.
Quite possibly ISTj.
I'm also quite sure he's not ENFj.
ENTj, but don't take my word for it. Look at the V.I. pictures at socioniko.net and see for yourself.
Hm, his look and facial expression are very much like an ENFJ friend of mine. He also loves metal and making this kind of music
Metal definitely seems like a Beta thing. An INFp friend of mine is an amazing guitarist, but for some reason he chooses to waste his skill on metal.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
He looks like Robert Downey Jr. And I see T not F.
Entp
ILE
Tell me that's not BetaSex ist ein Schlacht
Liebe ist Krieg
*cough*Ich bin der Reiter
du bist das Ross
ich steige auf
wir reiten los
du stöhnst
ich sag dir vor
ein Elefant im Nadelöhr
Rein Raus
Ich bin der Reiter
du bist das Ross
ich hab den Schlüssel
du hast das Schloß
die Tür geht auf
ich trete ein
das Leben kann so prachtvoll sein
Rein Raus
Tiefer tiefer
sag es sag es laut
tiefer tiefer
ich fühl mich wohl in deiner Haut
und tausend Elefanten brechen aus
Der Ritt war kurz
es tut mir leid
ich steige ab
hab keine Zeit
muss jetzt zu den anderen Pferden
wollen auch geritten werden
Rein Raus
Rein (tiefer)
Raus (tiefer)
He could be an SLE based simply on his creativity with euphemisms
Hooray for Beta ST!!!haha i forgot about that song
Let's just day that he's a logical type Beta.
hehe it would explain why I like Rammstein so much
I think that Till Lindemann is an ENFj, too.
me
Recently refound my love for Rammstein.
Till Lindemann would have to be S. He was a highly thought of swimmer in his youth and later on started to work as a carpenter and as a basket weaver. He is himself one of the pyrotechnicians for the band and designs the pyrotechnical show himself. He is highly physical, his trademark is to punctuate his singing with pumping his fist.
Now... this thread is full of comments about there being violence in the lyrics of Rammstein. I would like to note that while there is violence, there is not really passion. The sound is cold. It's not Fe nor is it Fe-loving. There is no rage, everything is discussed matter of factly. Also, Till is a self-described masochist. Pain is actually a pleasure to him. In his videos Till plays the part of the victim of violence, not the aggressor. In Rosenrot he goes and kills two people because a girl asks her to and then gets killed for that. In Sonne the whole band are mining slaves to Snow white. In Seemann Till is keelhauled. The band does not make fun of others, they make fun of themselves.
Instead of passion, Lindemann's songs are full of humor, wordplays and little tricks. The songs use harsh words but in highly controlled and easily misleading ways. While people in thread stress that "this is metal and metal must be beta" it is also dance, and techno. Lindemann has a leftist, anarchist punk attitude and he himself thinks most highly of Kraftwerk.
To me the aspects that people are calling Se seem superficial and the person seems delta ST, far more likely ESTj than ISTp. He gives far too much of himself and reveals too much of himself to support an I--- type.
But I have to reverse the picture for a moment. I have to ponder whether Till could be an ESTp. To ponder which one is more likely, that an ESTp pushes all aggression towards himself or that an ESTj actually shows physical traits? There is a case to be made for ESTp, but it seems weaker than the one for ESTj.
Once more, I have to also compare this band to your really typical beta bands like Kiss and Queen. When this band sings about women, they whine. They're pretty monogamous, they're calm. They don't don't play roles on stage like Kiss or Alice Cooper. They don't act like rock gods like Freddie Mercury.
Anyway, I see ESTj, but OTOH I'm looking for ESTjs so maybe I'm just seeing what I'm looking for. *shrug*
Continuing on the same issue, the person, Flake Lorenz seems to be a pretty obvious IP and almost certainly an ISTp. He is notably stubborn and intellectual, yet physical and energetic, clearspoken and pleasure-driven. He is drawn and eccentric. He prefers a simple life with simple pleasures. He paints. I have trouble seeing him as anything else than ISTp.
LSI has been my impression, too.
ISTj sound about right?
I'm pretty sure he's not ENFj.
I think their lyrics are strikingly Ti + Se (where are those symbols???!*&)$%^*&!$). They use tons of short, powerful declarations such as "_____ is _____" and repeat them frequently. There is very little overt ethics in their music -- it is all hidden between the lines if there at all.
>> "Once more, I have to also compare this band to your really typical beta bands like Kiss and Queen. When this band sings about women, they whine. They're pretty monogamous, they're calm. They don't don't play roles on stage like Kiss or Alice Cooper. They don't act like rock gods like Freddie Mercury. "
You're comparing them to bands with EIE frontmen who direct their bands' development and style. A better comparison might be Metallica.
Last edited by Rick; 03-15-2008 at 07:04 AM.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
No, Metallica would be a bad choice. Artistically their roots are not in metal at all but in punk. A closer match would be something like sex pistols. The clear communication structure that you represent __ is __ is common to all ST types and is no evidence towards beta. I would like you to note that there is no overarcing logical structure Ti in Lindemann's work and that his actions, his songs are about random events that inspire etc.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I disagree that "____ is ____" is common to LSEs and especially SLIs, especially when the definition is conceptual rather than functional (i.e. "love is death" vs. "refrigerators are useful"). I don't see why Queen would be a better comparison to Rammstein than Metallica. At least the lead singers of Metallica and Rammstein have a remotely similar singing style and a similar rawness and powerful masculinity to their songs.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I did not say that Queen would be a better comparison. And maybe you haven't really paid much attention to ESTjs or ISTps. Clear-cut speech over issues is quite intrinsic to Te. You are acting as if muscles were a measure of masculinity. Are you aware of the Rammstein song Mann gegen mann. Rammstein's masculinity is completely atypical of beta. They make fun of themselves. They play gigs in diapers. They dress up as homosexuals. They play in fat suits. This is not the way that a band consistently wishing to show themselves in a powerful light would act. Compare to Manowar, Metallica if you will. Metallica sings things like "Kill them all". This kind of aggression towards others is absent in Rammstein. If you want to make a case, please make one instead of just spouting nonsense and making straw man arguments. Again, it is possible that I'm wrong about the issue, but to show it requires some very strong evidence to the opposite direction.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
If what I wrote was "just spouting nonsense," I am curious to see what non-nonsense looks like. Perhaps "Clear-cut speech over issues is quite intrinsic to Te."??
I didn't say anything about muscles (is Metallica known for their muscles??). Do you have to be serious to be beta? Lots of beta singers poke fun at themselves, and even Metallica's lead singer (name is escaping me) is really friendly and amiable in interviews -- hardly a "kill 'em all" kind of guy. I am simply examining the kinds of information they convey in their art. In Rammstein I just don't see any Te and Si.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
If you see nothing, then you are blind. I think the real issue is that you are constraining yourself to standard stereotypes and have no understanding and no interest in what really is Ti, what really is Te. This is also another case in which you do no research over a person or a group before you issue your opinion of their type. This is something I have seen you do a lot. You haven't been able to defeat even one of the arguments that show Lindemann as delta and haven't created one to show he is beta. I consider this conversation done until you actually do your damn job as a socionist and get yourself acquainted with the subject matter.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
A little more stuff, for anyone else who thinks Rammstein and Metallica are alike.
This is about the imagery the two bands use.
The names of their first albums and first singles
Metallica the band itself is named for the overall subject matter of Metal music. Rammstein is named after a single tragic event. The first emphasises large scale, impersonal, the second small scale, personal.
Metallica ------------- Rammstein
Kill em all ------------- Heartache
Ride the lightning ----- Longing
Master of puppets ---- Mother
And justice for all ----- Travel, travel
Metallica ------------- Rose red
Singles
Whiplash ------------- You smell so good
Jump in the fire ------- Seaman
Fade to black --------- Angel
Creeping death ------- You have
For whom the bell tolls - Model (Kraftwerk cover)
Master of puppets ---- Stripped (Depeche mode cover)
Battery -------------- From ashes to ashes
Welcome home (sanitarium) --- Sun
Eye of the beholder --- Left-two-three-four
Harvester of sorrow --- I want
And justice for all ----- Mother
One ------------------ Fire freely
Enter Sandman -------- My part
Don't tread on me ------ Amerika
The unforgiven --------- Without you
Wherever I may roam --- Do not want
Sad but true ----------- Gasoline
Until it sleeps ----------- Rose red
Hero of the day --------- Man against man
Metallica consistently evokes standard metal cliches. Their violence is about personal violence that is romanticized and pictured with broad archetypical brushstrokes. Rammstein, when talking about violence, talks about the existence of violence in society. They are political and satirical over singular events and over small concrete matters. They sing about coca cola, wunderbra, not the mythical Sandman. Metallica sings about heroes, Rammstein makes fun of them. Metallica sings about justice, Rammstein has a running motif of singing about the absence of justice. Rammstein sings about personal desires and personal issues, Metallica sings about archetypical strong issues.
I don't think I can make the difference any clearer.
Rammstein is not Metallica.
Lindemann is not Hetfield.
If I have misrepresented Metallica in any way, please correct me. I have no personal interest in that band and find their music completely void of interest, only commenting because the subject matter was brought up by another.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I think it goes without saying that we have an intertype misunderstanding here surrounding Ne and Ti. You do not consider my kind of damn research to be real damn research because you do not see any analytical process taking place, and I do not see your damn arguments as being real damn arguments. I can accept that, but I still do not agree with your opinion of Lindemann's type. And I think you are being very pompous to give me instructions like you are. But then again maybe I am also being pompous in making snide remarks about your posts. So we are even.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
You are still talking about everything but the actual issue of Lindemann's type, refusing to see or comment on any evidence on it and attempting to fudge the issue. I have no reason to support the use of such tactics.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Um... okay, twiddle-dee-dum. I think Lindemann is an LSI. There. So, what is your opinion?
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Read the thread.
Do you have anything to support your opinion? So far I have seen nothing.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Listening to their music and watching their videos, and also watching interviews of Lindemann, I have responded to them in certain ways that correspond to other LSIs and LSI centered music. For me their music is very harsh and repetitive and lacks melodic qualities that are pleasing to my ear. Their short percussive phrases grate on me. Their music has a stark, point-blank quality that I cannot resonate with, mostly because there is no rich melodic structure to draw my musical ear in. I don't understand their fascination with rhythmic, repetitive motions on stage, or their costumes, their master-and-servant motifs, and the whole dark atmosphere of their concerts. Appearance-wise, Lindemann reminds me of Russell Crowe and James Hetfield. He is very serious and stern in interviews in a way that would make me uncomfortable talking to him. After I get used to them I can begin to see some of the humor and playfulness in them and find interesting aspects in their artistry, but it is not of the kind that I would respond to well in real life. Part of it is that to me they seem angry all the time, and I don't take that well.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Ok, thank you. This is at least an attempt to make a case. I will answer this best I can.
Harshness and repetition. This is something that is typical of Te. Cold, impassionality. It is not meant to evoke Fe, not meant to evoke powerful emotion.
Their master-and-servant motif relates to the harshness and masochism of Lindemann himself. ESTj and ISTp are not leader characters, the attitude is "The world is harsh, but I'm man enought to bear it." Te-ESTj are angry a lot of the time. It is even stereotypical of them.
I will make no comment on the physical qualities of Hetfield, Crowe vs. Lindemann. VI over physical characteristics is very weak as evidence goes and besides I have no opinion on Crowe's type. But if you compare the body language. Open wikipedia page of Hetfield. Hetfield has an expression in that pic that you will not find on Lindemann. Also, try to imagine Lindemann having that kind of a beard. It would not fit his image. The particulars of their appearance that are theirs to control and show their personality are quite different. When Hetfield is on stage, there's much more intensive emotion in his performance. Lindemann goes into something like a trance like state. When you look at pics of Hetfield, is constantly making aggressive signs towards the camera. Lindemann is dispassionate.
Now you are quite strong in Ne and Lindemann is closer to Te. There is about 1/4 of quadra difference. There is no reason why his message should resonate with you particularly much. It is industrial metal. Think about such words like: effectiveness, machinery, factory, organized violence, police. Do you find these words in synch with yourself? Also, Lindemann is singing mostly about things that cause him pain. By sympathetic affection if you understand what he sings about you should feel anguish, not pleasure, that is if you are able to receive the message such as he portrays it.
I consider this to be a sufficient repudiation of the matters you brought forth and consider you to be again with very little evidence.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
In my system of socionics repetition of form is characteristic of Ti, not Te. It is imposing a structure upon objects that is not inherent to the objects themselves. In music, the combination Ti + Se is like beating a message into your brain. In ordinary speech this corresponds to statements such as: "No. That is wrong. Start over." In architecture -- repetition of form and structure, such as symmetric rows of columns. In thought systems -- logically consistent (i.e. applying the same rules everywhere) structures of ideas or rules.
In master-and-servant motifs, one person is controlling or imposing himself upon another. This is one possible expression of Se in my understanding of socionics: one object is dominating or possessing the other. As much as I have seen, Rammstein's videos and performances are full of this. The attitudes you are associating with LSE and SLI I associate with Se.
Yes, there are differences between those three people, but there are also many similarities. I do not find Lindemann dispassionate and mild compared to Hetfield. To me they are both "angry men," the difference being that Hetfield is from smiley America, and Lindemann from stern and solemn Germany.
The words you mention -- "effectiveness, machinery, factory, organized violence, police. "
"Effectiveness" I generally relate to Te. The rest -- at least in the context they are being used in this music -- I associate with Ti + Se. Men are part of the machine. Machines fight machines. Men fight the law. The state suppresses men. These are statements about the organization of power within society -- again, a Ti + Se message. These are not topics Delta types resonate with, in my experience. It makes them depressed, if anything. In Rammstein's music there seems to be no solution proposed, so it is not clear what the singer's ideals are: is he promoting violence or condemning it?
You say, "It is not meant to evoke Fe, not meant to evoke powerful emotion" and at the same time, "if you understand what he sings about you should feel anguish." Anguish is not a Delta motif; it's much too strong an emotion and quite destructive for Delta types.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
At every point you are missing the crucial differences between delta and beta, ignoring delta aristocratic traits and misrepresenting beta ones. Either you are missing a huge portion of the delta psyche or you are not arguing in good faith. I don't know which.
People working as an efficient whole for the good of the whole is Te. Police forces are Te+Si. Even career military is Te+Si. Ti+Se is military for the sake of conquest. You are missing the difference between protective forces and aggressive forces, the difference between military conquest and career military, the difference between the armed conquest and private rebellion. All violence is not the same. You are arguing as if delta was only about Si+Ne but it is also about Te and Fi. Te and Fi are not relaxed and Te is extremely harsh. Your system of socionics appears to have delta as equal of Si and Ne and be lacking Te completely.
If all you see in Lindemann is an "angry man" then you have not looked at him. Do you not think that ESTjs have anger? Do you know anything about delta STs at all?
Your strong message is typical of all T. The repetition in the Rammstein music is dance beat. It is there to make the music easier to enjoy physically. Dance parties are not Beta.
Also, you will find on this forum at least a large number of personal accounts of experiences of ESTjs in which the ESTj continuously repeats a message, a matter which the persons describing the habit thought very annoying. You recognize Te as effectiveness yet you say that the most effective manner of speech is Ti+Se. Again, nonsense.
You grab onto the word anguish and the force of the word. Maybe I should have used angst instead. Vague negative ill feeling is what I meant. My choice of words is not evidence of the band itself.
Also, this is not about architecture, this is about Lindemann. Stop squirming.
You point out how there is master-slave symbolism in Rammstein yet you consistently ignore the fact that Rammstein portrays itself in the part of the slave while most metal bands portray themselves in the part of the master. All "aristocracy" socionic groups have imagery of strong social roles. Please remember this.
You are representing Rammstein as saying things that are not their message. They do not talk about fighting the law but accepting it as a negative factual circumstance while mocking it. Rammstein is not about resisting or fighting against something, but enduring something. Endurance is delta, hardship is delta, being your own individual is delta. This is Rammstein. Please stop lying and misrepresenting.
You seem to have turned from non-professional attitude to flat out lying and misleading. I don't understand why you want to do this since material on Rammstein is readily available for everyone to view and make their own opinions of. Stop turning this issue into a joke. This is not about your ego, this is about a factual issue.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
All I can say is that we have very different concepts of the socionic functions, and this fact should be acknowledged, rather than assuming that I must be lying, misleading, and defending my ego if I don't share the same understanding as you.
Speaking of the functions, I can't help but notice your frequent "command" language. It makes me very aggressive:
"Stop turning this issue ..."
"stop lying and misrepresenting..."
"Stop squirming."
"remember this"
I'm curious which function/s or dichotomies you think you're using when you say things like this?
Last edited by Rick; 03-15-2008 at 06:19 PM.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again, thread about Lindemann, not me or your ego. I consider this to be as much of a note of acceptance of your failure as you are capable of writing. When you at some point run into this problem again, it would probably be useful to concentrate on the following concepts: A person saying: "I will not start a fight but by goddamnit I'm going to finish it." What type does this represent to you? It is a direct rebuttal of the beta way of life, but it is violent. Do you realize that such people exist and that such people have to have a personality type? A person who uses violence and aggression for the sole purpose of removing the further use of such is not violent or aggressive by themselves. In your dreamworld this might be different as gaining truthful knowledge doesn't appear to be an important issue for you.
As for what I'm using, it's pure Te from my point of view, but I have no doubt that you will mistake it for Ti + Se. That is if you continue to use structural analysis instead of personality , strategic or contextual communication analysis.
Your "delta" seems to be a mixture of alpha and delta issues and you seem to ignorant of how people who are delta-gamma behave. You are not the measure of every group you belong in. The Si comfort that you seem to be fixated in, is created by doing work. This work is not pleasant in and of itself but doing this work and doing it well, is an integral part of being ESTj and thereby delta. The fact that it is other members of your quadra that work their asses off to create the candyass comfort and luxury you seem to expect seems to escape you, and you seem to equate me with things that disgust me. I find this annoying on a personal level, something which you may have understood from analyzing my words, if you're not completely oblivious, that is. I will not accept untruths and I will not accept foul play. I will not compromise my message for your comfort. This is not a beta message. Everyone who is angry and clearspoken is not using Ti + Se. You need to learn to differentiate. Anyway, I'll stop reading this thread, I've said what needed to be said and I can't see any more good coming from this. Bye again and thank you for your nice tone throughout this difficult conversation.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
It was you, not me, who switched from discussing Lindemann to accusing me of various evil motives. I suppose by my "ego" you mean answering back to your condescending comments? Herzy will have an enjoyable read when she gets back to her thread.
I honestly can't understand what you're saying in your first paragraph.
In the second, as I suspected, you see that as Te. And, yes, I do see such statements as Se + Ti, and that is the crux of the disagreement. In my opinion, you have a systematic error in your basic definitions coming from your personal interpretation of the Reinin dichotomies. Maybe your system is internally consistent, but it does not mesh well with classical definitions which play out very well on the level of intertype interaction, which is where I am coming from.
"That is if you continue to use structural analysis instead of personality , strategic or contextual communication analysis. "
I don't understand your terms here.
"I will not compromise my message for your comfort. This is not a beta message."
Well, I think it is ("I will not adjust my Ti statements to satisfy your Si and Fi"). As is this one:
"The fact that it is other members of your quadra that work their asses off to create the candyass comfort and luxury you seem to expect seems to escape you, "
So I'm a "bad" Delta type because I expect people to adjust their self-expression to preserve comfort and good feelings? That is an interesting interpretation of Si and Fi quadra values.
"This work is not pleasant in and of itself but doing this work and doing it well, is an integral part of being ESTj and thereby delta."
A Delta value is that work SHOULD be pleasant (Te + Si), and that doing work that is unpleasant just because it is your responsibility or position in life is not an admirable quality. Some EIIs do think that, but even they ultimately seek greater comfort rather than ever-increasing challenges and burdens. When they do have to do unpleasant work, they seem morose and fate-stricken instead of rising to the challenge with confidence.
"I find this annoying on a personal level, something which you may have understood from analyzing my words, if you're not completely oblivious, that is."
I have been more focused on responding to your accusatory tone than thinking about your feelings.
Each person in this argument has been using his type-given arsenal and probably looks like a condescending ass to some other readers. Chalk it up to a vivid intertype demonstration, if you will.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I've never understood how people can get so upset in a forum setting. The thing as a whole is very impersonable. Just crush your opponent and be done with it. This isn't the world counsel on peace now.
I find the preceding expressions of disagreement educational.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
I do too.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Yeah we actually did learn something here didn't we.
This is a very interesting and informative discussion. And I think that it's a good thing that some differences in understanding of the types are surfaced.
I agree. And I am also convinced that it is not+
but probably
. I have often a tendency to talk in a similar manner, and I have seen this way of talking most clearly manifested in
As I have expected quite some time now, there really seems to be something wrong your understanding of some of the types, Rick, and you are not alone on this forum in having those erroneous conceptions. It is not that easy to pinpoint exactly what the problem is, though. But this might be a good starting point.
Sorry Rick, but that is not the real problem here. The real problem seems to be that your understanding of the classical definitions does not correspond with reality. The real types don't seem to act in accordance with your understanding of them, which in turn seems to lead to mistypings on your part. There have been more than one example in the past where that has been rather obvious.
It's hard to tell from my perspective exactly what kind of mistake(s) you are making, but at least you seem to have a clear tendency to see some aspects of
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
