Healthy Narcissism

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

So lately I've been reading a few articles that tell me that 'Healthy Narcissism' is okay. But who gets to define what is Healthy Narcissism and what is not? How can you test something like that? It's not like a clear answer, like saying 'A glass of water is healthier than a glass of coke.'

And how specifically is Narcissism the opposite of Empathy? Have we even thought this through. I don't even think there is such a thing as Narcissism or Empathy in real life. Things are just kinda how they are, you know. =/

So clearly define for me, what 'Healthy Narcissism' is as opposed to 'Bad Narcissism.' World leaders all tend to be tall and good looking, very image-focused. Would we really trust somebody who doesn't have the self-confidence to keep up their appearance and strength?

[Brilliand]

So lately I've been reading a few articles that tell me that 'Healthy Narcissism' is okay. But who gets to define what is Healthy Narcissism and what is not? How can you test something like that? It's not like a clear answer, like saying 'A glass of water is healthier than a glass of coke.'

And how specifically is Narcissism the opposite of Empathy? Have we even thought this through. I don't even think there is such a thing as Narcissism or Empathy in real life. Things are just kinda how they are, you know. =/

So clearly define for me, what 'Healthy Narcissism' is as opposed to 'Bad Narcissism.' World leaders all tend to be tall and good looking, very image-focused. Would we really trust somebody who doesn't have the self-confidence to keep up their appearance and strength?

"Narcissism" sounds like one of those words that people throw at their opposite quadra. "Healthy Narcissism" sounds like that quadra assuming that the first quadra is talking about only their morons and trying to say "We're not all bad."

Yes. Yes you are.

[Logos]

So lately I've been reading a few articles that tell me that 'Healthy Narcissism' is okay. But who gets to define what is Healthy Narcissism and what is not? How can you test something like that? It's not like a clear answer, like saying 'A glass of water is healthier than a glass of coke.'

And how specifically is Narcissism the opposite of Empathy? Have we even thought this through. I don't even think there is such a thing as Narcissism or Empathy in real life. Things are just kinda how they are, you know. =/

So clearly define for me, what 'Healthy Narcissism' is as opposed to 'Bad Narcissism.' World leaders all tend to be tall and good looking, very image-focused. Would we really trust somebody who doesn't have the self-confidence to keep up their appearance and strength?

While obviously not the most accurate source of information, you may want to check out Wikipedia's article on narcissism.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I already did.

It's interesting but still too vague.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[xkj220]

Depends on whether it's at the expense of other people or not, whether or not it's healthy. If you're so self-absorbed that you're blind to how you're affecting others with your behavior - that's unhealthy. If you however, are self-confident, self-assured, and know your strengths, but also recognize the strengths and value of other people, then you're on the right track.

What if you are aware of how your actions might affect negatively others, but you do it anyway because you believe that's the best way to do something?

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Gilly]

I just like to look at my own face ;-;

[Krig the Viking]

Then it's something else we're talking about. There is very much an other-blindness with narcissism. It's truly blindness, not maliciousness or practicality, or anything else. They are so self-absorbed that other people and their needs don't even register.

I agree. "Healthy Narcissism" is not really narcissism at all. It might be more accurate to talk about "Healthy Selfishness".

Not that I think either is ideal. I think others-centredness (selfless love) is essential to a healthy and fulfilling life. That doesn't mean neglecting the self entirely, mind you -- a run-down, neglected self is less able to help others. But, as far as I am concerned, the good of others should always take priority over the good of the self.

[Logos]

I agree. "Healthy Narcissism" is not really narcissism at all. It might be more accurate to talk about "Healthy Selfishness".

Not that I think either is ideal. I think others-centredness (selfless love) is essential to a healthy and fulfilling life. That doesn't mean neglecting the self entirely, mind you -- a run-down, neglected self is less able to help others. But, as far as I am concerned, the good of others should always take priority over the good of the self.

Nuh-uh. You are confusing narcissism the psychological trait with the pejorative narcissism, in the sense of a narcissistic personality disorder.

[Krig the Viking]

Nuh-uh. You are confusing narcissism the psychological trait with the pejorative narcissism, in the sense of a narcissistic personality disorder.

Hmm, you're right, that is what I was primarily referring to. Still, the phrase "Healthy Narcissism" sounds silly to me, like "Healthy Vanity" or "Healthy Hubris". It refers to the myth of Narcissus, who was cursed to fall in love with his own reflection. In my opinion, if it's being used non-pejoratively, then it's being misused.

[Logos]

Hmm, you're right, that is what I was primarily referring to. Still, the phrase "Healthy Narcissism" sounds silly to me, like "Healthy Vanity" or "Healthy Hubris". It refers to the myth of Narcissus, who was cursed to fall in love with his own reflection. In my opinion, if it's being used non-pejoratively, then it's being misused.

"I don't like the sound of it, therefore it's wrong." Is that what you are saying?

[force my hand]

'Healthy narcissism' sounds like a fad catchphrase that's better described by another word, and likely is.

[xkj220]

Yes; self-esteem.

[sigma]

And how specifically is Narcissism the opposite of Empathy?

Healthy Narcissism *IS* internal Empathy. Is the Empathy you give yourself.
It's like internal talk on this tone: "Ok, ok, you screw things big time but you didn't meant to screw them, you tried to do your best but things just turned out wrong. Sometime they do. Learn what is needed to be learn and move on."

[Creepy-male]

So lately I've been reading a few articles that tell me that 'Healthy Narcissism' is okay. But who gets to define what is Healthy Narcissism and what is not? How can you test something like that? It's not like a clear answer, like saying 'A glass of water is healthier than a glass of coke.'

And how specifically is Narcissism the opposite of Empathy? Have we even thought this through. I don't even think there is such a thing as Narcissism or Empathy in real life. Things are just kinda how they are, you know. =/

So clearly define for me, what 'Healthy Narcissism' is as opposed to 'Bad Narcissism.' World leaders all tend to be tall and good looking, very image-focused. Would we really trust somebody who doesn't have the self-confidence to keep up their appearance and strength?

Healthy Narcissim I agree is a stupid word since its misleading, but I understand what they are trying to say..... I think they say "Healthy Narcissim" because all to often people throw around narcissist as a label for people they believe are overly confident and too image-concious. Saying "Healthy Narcissim" is the way for the author of these articles to kind of fight back against the over use of the label narcissist. Simply refering to "Healthy Narcissim" as "Confidence" would not have established that connection.... so the use of the paradoxal word is meant to serve as a kind of communication in itself... for the psychologically minded its confusing though.

The real problem with labeling "bad" and "good" narcissism... is that in traditional speech narcissism is consider to be a psychological disorder.... so by definition narcissism is consider to be "bad".

However if we were to speak more fundamentally.....

I think there is a positive and negative polarity to Confidence
and
I think there is a positive and negative polarity to Image-Conciousness

The positive polarity of Confidence is in "believing in yourself" and all that stuff
The negative polarity of Confidence I believe is hubris and overestimation
The positive polarity of Image-Conciousness is self-expression
The negative polarity of Image-Conciousness is vanity

Politicians presenting themselves nicely is important for self-expression... their demeanor and appearance helps communicate a message of what they are about. The problem is when that message is undermining what their true intent is.... when its a faccade.... the politican dresses in a manner that seems honorable and respectable, but his intentions are less than.

[Krig the Viking]

"I don't like the sound of it, therefore it's wrong." Is that what you are saying?

Yes, exactly!

Actually, I'm talking about semantics. Like "hubris" and "vanity", "narcissism" has intrinsically negative connotations, even moreso than the others due to its origin as a cautionary tale about the dangers of vanity. Therefore "Healthy Narcissism" makes about as much sense as "Healthy Flaws" or "Healthy Moral Failings".

From my understanding of the bits of Freud and Jung I've read (in my fact-checking for my posts in this thread, mostly), narcissism or exclusive self-love occurs when one is unable to obtain love from others, especially from parents. It serves a function in preserving the psyche, but it's not what I would call "healthy" any more than a person whose immune system is fighting off a cold is healthy.

[Krig the Viking]

It occurs to me that it's probably important to draw a distinction between narcissism, i.e., exclusive self-love, and regular, non-exclusive self-love. Exclusive self-love loves the self and neglects the love of others; true self-love is an integral component of the love of others. I think what some people mean by "Healthy Narcissism" is simply the love of self, not true narcissism at all.

[Creepy-male]

Therefore "Healthy Narcissism" makes about as much sense as "Healthy Flaws" or "Healthy Moral Failings".

Yes, if you're going to be euphemistic, try using the word "Temporary" instead!

"Temporary villainous intent"! "Temporary permanent zombie infection"! Or if you're more subtle, "Immaturity" or "Things to work on"!

It serves a function in preserving the psyche, but it's not what I would call "healthy" any more than Manhattan fighting off a bioweapon plague.

Fixed.

[Jarno]

A read an article recently.

Narcism starts to become a real problem (in holland). Because of the popular culture to look and dress and behave like a celebrity. Drive the biggest car you can buy (=lend) and have a zillion friends at myspace/hyves/facebook etc. Everybody thinks he's the most handsome and special person, which causes especially girl to not be able to find a guy who meets their extreme high standards. It's a trend that everybody notices in my country.

[Brilliand]

Yes, if you're going to be euphemistic, try using the word "Temporary" instead!

"Temporary villainous intent"! "Temporary permanent zombie infection"! Or if you're more subtle, "Immaturity" or "Things to work on"!

Fixed.

I think Krig's original phrasing expressed his idea better, though.

[Creepy-male]

A read an article recently.

Narcism starts to become a real problem (in holland). Because of the popular culture to look and dress and behave like a celebrity. Drive the biggest car you can buy (=lend) and have a zillion friends at myspace/hyves/facebook etc. Everybody thinks he's the most handsome and special person, which causes especially girl to not be able to find a guy who meets their extreme high standards. It's a trend that everybody notices in my country.

Ummm thats not just a problem in holland, thats everywhere.... people do that all the time in america also.... When your in your teen years you wish to have the hottest girlfriend, be in the best social group, drive the best car, wear the best clothes, have a zillion friend on social internet sites, have the attitude of a celebrity, and the belief you are somehow intrinstically better than everyone else..... then you go to college, continue the trend.... then you get a job, move to the suburbs and then..... you wish to have the hottest wife, be in the best neighborhood, have the biggest house, best car, your children are honor students, they dress better than the other kids because you can provide for them, you are the "cool parents" every kid likes, and you have the belief you are entitled to any and all privleges, services, and material goods........ blah blah blah I blame modern society, but really its just human nature.... some people keep it in check, others are hopelessly vain and materialistic... but their own punishment is the prison of their high standards and expectations. By that I mean, reality rarely matches up to those expectations and people struggle to maintain a faccade or outward appearance that is incoherent with what they know is true and that constantly gives them an edge they can't shake off, eventually this edge drives them to take great efforts to solidify their false image and faccade (they are afraid someone will discover the truth) and eventually the false image becomes more important than the true pursuit, the true pursuit crumbles and they are left with a false monument to what could have been, eventually the truth comes down on them hard and they crumble themselves.... but realistically people usually realize their flaws before it gets that out of hand.

[Jarno]

Ummm thats not just a problem in holland, thats everywhere.... people do that all the time in america also.... When your in your teen years you wish to have the hottest girlfriend, be in the best social group, drive the best car, wear the best clothes, have a zillion friend on social internet sites, have the attitude of a celebrity, and the belief you are somehow intrinstically better than everyone else..... then you go to college, continue the trend.... then you get a job, move to the suburbs and then..... you wish to have the hottest wife, be in the best neighborhood, have the biggest house, best car, your children are honor students, they dress better than the other kids because you can provide for them, you are the "cool parents" every kid likes, and you have the belief you are entitled to any and all privleges, services, and material goods........ blah blah blah I blame modern society, but really its just human nature.... some people keep it in check, others are hopelessly vain and materialistic... but their own punishment is the prison of their high standards and expectations. By that I mean, reality rarely matches up to those expectations and people struggle to maintain a faccade or outward appearance that is incoherent with what they know is true and that constantly gives them an edge they can't shake off, eventually this edge drives them to take great efforts to solidify their false image and faccade (they are afraid someone will discover the truth) and eventually the false image becomes more important than the true pursuit, the true pursuit crumbles and they are left with a false monument to what could have been, eventually the truth comes down on them hard and they crumble themselves.... but realistically people usually realize their flaws before it gets that out of hand.

yes good point. though it has been getting worse in the last decade.

yuk, fake people.

[Creepy-male]

yes good point. though it has been getting worse in the last decade.

yuk, fake people.

Yea agreed on fake people..... I just wait until they breakdown and then laugh at them, maybe not always on the outside, but always on the inside.

[Waddlesworth]

World leaders all tend to be tall and good looking, very image-focused. Would we really trust somebody who doesn't have the self-confidence to keep up their appearance and strength?

I'd say that the best/most influential world leaders(in politics and government, not so much business) are less likely to be tall, typically being just below average in stature. I think that this makes them seem tougher/more confident.

[creger]

when the the majority of people are narcissists, the ones that aren't narcissists are narcissists to the narcissists.

[Creepy-male]

when the the majority of people are narcissists, the ones that aren't narcissists are narcissists to the narcissists.

^ post-modernistic thinking..... its all relative, its all subjective.......

[Jarno]

when the the majority of people are narcissists, the ones that aren't narcissists are narcissists to the narcissists.

no, the ones that aren't narcists are called LOSERS.

[xkj220]

no, the ones that aren't narcists are called LOSERS.

No, he has a point. It's very amusing because these sort narcissists tend to band together to accomplish things, giving an appearance of cohesion. but it's all false, because at the first chance they get, they backstab their "friends" without any qualms in order to get ahead. You can observe this very clearly in the field of politics. When a politician that seems genuine and not a narcissist enters the scene, they detect it and temporarily associate to bring him/her down in any way possible.

[Creepy-male]

No, he has a point. It's very amusing because these sort narcissists tend to band together to accomplish things, giving an appearance of cohesion. but it's all false, because at the first chance they get, they backstab their "friends" without any qualms in order to get ahead. You can observe this very clearly in the field of politics. When a politician that seems genuine and not a narcissist enters the scene, they detect it and temporarily associate to bring him/her down in any way possible.

Well I think thats because its easier to be not narcissistic when your out of the scene, but when you enter the scene being narcissistic becomes a much more attractive option. But this really just seems like insanity, just be practical about it. People are either exhibiting narcisstic behavior or they are not, and narcissticism is by definition considered a bad thing. Stamp it, Seal it, and Ship it off....