How the PoLR influences Ego functions

[Adam Strange]

EIEs are know for being theatralic and dramatic. But when they are really acting they are convincing and "natural". I think Si-PoLR is related to hyper-naturalness. It can be about mimics, natural reactions, relaxedness, acting with "your skin". All this in a framework of acting with FeNi. So there is no strong Si here. All is taken care of by the FeNi, but giving the impression of a "natural person" that actually is a role.

This is my hypothesis. But I think the pattern in other types is pretty convincing, so I assume it's something like this. I see it in EIEs, more or less. I'm sure there are other manifestation also, not all EIEs are actors

How would this manifest in LIE's?

[PrettySavage]

How would this manifest in LIE's?

I've already asked, they don't know.

In any case my fault for missing a post, if I had I wouldn't have go on in the first place.

[Bertrand]

I think the simple answer is rather than try to create the perception and judge it on the basis of Fe they would judge it on the basis of Te. In other words, they would try to actually become a natural person according to logical rather than ethical (Se) feedback. the simplest way to do this would be to learn from mentors and not simply imitate idols. it probably goes to Tai reading a book a day

Just as the ILEs pretend to have Fi. Have you noticed?

i never really thought of it as such, but I can totally see it now

[Tallmo]

How would this manifest in LIE's?

I don't know. I'm trying to come up with an example that would follow the pattern I described in the OP.

My lack of relations with LIE is a problem.

Possibly something about creating business that is felt being "clean" and "manageable". (Basically an aesthetic/subjective component in the business development)

@Playing With Fire

[Tallmo]

i never really thought of it as such, but I can totally see it now

Do you agree that John Lennon and Russell Brand are ILE? If not, then we can maybe find other examples.

Lots of humanistic talk about mankind and how we all should live together, and other Fi-related stuff. Very developed thoughts on this. Not necessarily realistic, though.

Or Karl Marx. (if he was ILE)

[The Reality Denialist]

Something like Steve Jobs: he demanded things to be absolutely polished.
To a point where things starts to lack flexibility and customization.

In more general terms:
Place where rigidness of own understanding of something sensible is introduced from top down.

[WinnieW]

Do you agree that John Lennon and Russell Brand are ILE?

I'd say IEE for both of them, at least IEE for John Lennon.
How can he be Fi-vulerable? Then a song like Imagine would be a total fake. That song is so... -



On a second thought:
The song seems to me. Definitely NF w some . Weak , and

[The Reality Denialist]

RB seems to be very comfortable with ethical stuff. That is just what I get from him.

One has to understand what is ethics in socionics.

I remember back in high school how incredibly easy ethics was from philosophical standpoint as I could represent it very logically. Effortless stuff.

[Tallmo]

I'd say IEE for both of them, at least IEE for John Lennon.
How can he be Fi-vulerable? Then a song like Imagine would be a total fake. That song is so... -

Imagine sums up the common ILE attitude. We are all equal, living in peace, no differentiation of attitude etc.

Strong Fi judges things one by one. I like this but i dislike that. ILEs commonly treat all people the same.

But their types have been discussed in other treads. I just mentioned them in case bertrand needed examples. There will always be disagreements on celebrities types

[WinnieW]

Imagine sums up the common ILE attitude.

I don't see it that way. I have a different interpretation of this song.
It is about being authentic, follow your own true values. Don't take the burden of following values or rules that religious people or society tell you are important.
Is there a statement in the lyrics to treat every person the same way? I can't read it.

It is about creating about a better world, believing that every person is born as a human with a moral code. I interprete it as a conflict between and
The song is definitly about values, but I can't see it as devaluing

The song is about a better human society. It has a attitude towards tolerance of different opinions. Harmony through acceptance. It devales hierarchy.

[Rebelondeck]

How would this manifest in LIE's?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but mature LIE and EIE see the value in occasionally coming down to earth - being more in touch at a grass-root level with themselves, their environment and the people around them, and they often contrive opportunities to engage those aspects - and many occasions actually appear staged. They really are in touch but in a way similar to religious leaders looking upon members of their congregations, and they rarely wallow in what they may see as the mud. When engaging people, they seem to start or reconcile relationships more from a defensive vantage point, which can make them sometimes appear rather insincere unless they're really good actors, and many are. Their intent is probably well-meaning but the process may feel somewhat unnatural to them, which can be picked up by other discerning individuals.
a.k.a. I/O

[PrettySavage]

@Rebelondeck


Could you please elaborate on the relationships thing? From the mud bit onward I'm not sure I get it.

Are you're saying they don't know how to engage people emotionally and so it feels/ looks fake to others when they try? Because they can't "let their guard down"?

[Rebelondeck]

@Rebelondeck


Could you please elaborate on the relationships thing? From the mud bit onward I'm not sure I get it.

Are you're saying they don't know how to engage people emotionally and so it feels/ looks fake to others when they try? Because they can't "let their guard down"?

Essentially, yes and it seems related to their personal image, which they hold very dear; they seem afraid to let things really hang out too much in fear of tarnishing how they want to be perceived. I'm sure they're not all like that but ESIs and LSIs are very good at polishing images.....

a.k.a. I/O

[Bertrand]

Do you agree that John Lennon and Russell Brand are ILE? If not, then we can maybe find other examples.

Lots of humanistic talk about mankind and how we all should live together, and other Fi-related stuff. Very developed thoughts on this. Not necessarily realistic, though.

Or Karl Marx. (if he was ILE)

I think we could stick to Ausra and get to the same place. Very developed thoughts on Fi related stuff. The deal with artists like lennon [1] is they seem more like Fi on Fi and not Ti on Fi. However setting that debate aside, I can see what you mean and I can, ahem, imagine them as ILE and get the main point. the main point is their polr is the "rejected alternative" to their creative, so its a sort of Ti replacement for Fi.

When I think of Fi polr "pretending" to have Fi, I think of them being involved in a discussion where they come across a point where "Fi should be there" for any average human (Fi role or greater) and they sort of sense it (experience), so they use words in a Ti sense to replicate what normally flows from Fi. We saw Adam Strange do this (as he frequently does) and me comment here... further when you think of Fi as actually making character assessments you either see a complete inability to do so, or them homing in on all the wrong qualities, sometimes it feels like just "picking one" so they can make their statement and move on (sort of like a "yeah! me too!" statement, but its clearly a little odd, as if to say "haha regular human here, right guys? nothing weird about this guy, just doing what humans do, using that Fi")... its interesting because theres this sheen of Fe over it, so it would be tempting to think of LSI or LII as more robotic but they're actually more genuine and "what you see is what you get"--if the extroverts dropped the act we'd see an even more shockingly impoverished inner state in that area

[1] I feel like music implicates Fi to a very strong degree, not by if its being done but by how. Ti music is very devoid of feeling usually fast moving and complex, or overblown in regard to feeling. it misses the mark, but explores a lot of conceptual and sensory space at the same time. the person who criticizes wonderwall or something like that for being conceptually extremely simplistic is a good example of someone looking at the Ti over the Fi aspects of the song. "all songs are just these 2 or 3 basic chord progressions" without looking to the Fi content is a statement from a Ti ego, usually. weird medleys demonstrating the point come off as "killing sacred cows" not realizing the Fi point is being murdered while the Ti point is being made, etc (can be really funny though, depending on mood)

also a lot of this thread is coming off as "LIE is EIE in a business setting": no

[The Reality Denialist]

So you type Adam as SLE? Based on his ability to climb the ladder? I see this as rational () quality more than which is more informed of sensing on world.

And, yes he has some sort weakness as bases have which has highly suggestive quality in it while lacking proper judgment. Where as PoLR people have abstracted or stepped out its immediate realm.

[PrettySavage]

Essentially, yes and it seems related to their personal image, which they hold very dear; they seem afraid to let things really hang out too much in fear of tarnishing how they want to be perceived. I'm sure they're not all like that but ESIs and LSIs are very good at polishing images.....

a.k.a. I/O

What xSIs have to do with it?

[Rebelondeck]

What xSIs have to do with it?

Their duals....
a.k.a. I/O

[PrettySavage]

Their duals....
a.k.a. I/O

Yeah, I got it after I posted

[Bertrand]

So you type Adam as SLE? Based on his ability to climb the ladder? I see this as rational () quality more than which is more informed of sensing on world.

And, yes he has some sort weakness as bases have which has highly suggestive quality in it while lacking proper judgment. Where as PoLR people have abstracted or stepped out its immediate realm.

maybe, the main thing is Adam is not LIE and this place has a really poor understanding of gamma in general. what the underlying mechanics are exactly is very tough to suss out. the irony is, if I try, to the degree which I succeed is considered Ti in the minds of the people, who demand it be Ti, in order to listen, precisely because they're Ti seeking. the main thing is I've made it a general goal of mine to sort this issue out because I think its the nexus of a lot of which is wrong with socionics. you solve this you solve a lot more than just this

[The Reality Denialist]

His is like non existent in written form. But his is still grounded.

[Bertrand]

how do you understand Ti v Te to appear in written form?

[The Reality Denialist]

this is how it is like evidence and forms conclusions, theories etc.

BTW you try to as well, but is very weak as it works textbook level + extra subjectivity from while trying to masquerade to objective possibility (). Very value driven individual who reacts to things as ethics basis .


C'mon supervise me.

[Bertrand]

why would I ever revise such a beautiful compliment, I want to put a frame around it and hang it somewhere prominent

[lavos]

Accepting subtypes want to achieve an equilibrium on their PoRL using their HA. But they do care about their PoRL a lot.

Producing subtypes only care about fullfilling their HA.

[Bertrand]

another way to put it is you try to realize positive feedback on your third function via your second.. the more you need that feedback the more it requires creative realization

[FDG]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but mature LIE and EIE see the value in occasionally coming down to earth - being more in touch at a grass-root level with themselves, their environment and the people around them, and they often contrive opportunities to engage those aspects - and many occasions actually appear staged. They really are in touch but in a way similar to religious leaders looking upon members of their congregations, and they rarely wallow in what they may see as the mud. When engaging people, they seem to start or reconcile relationships more from a defensive vantage point, which can make them sometimes appear rather insincere unless they're really good actors, and many are. Their intent is probably well-meaning but the process may feel somewhat unnatural to them, which can be picked up by other discerning individuals.
a.k.a. I/O

Applies in a business or generally speaking professional setting, I am not sure it applies to their private life.

[idontgiveaf]

Yeah every functions can be used in a positive way

[Rebelondeck]

Applies in a business or generally speaking professional setting, I am not sure it applies to their private life.

I've seen this behaviour in their private lives where they seem to preside over the festivities but not really participate - thus perhaps maintaining a slightly superior position from which no kind of loss is possible. I don't mean this in a negative way; corporations look for people who exhibit LIE-like behaviour (whether they be LIE or not) and I've taken enough executive screening tests to understand that the ability to read the situation, adapt, and maintain an image under all sorts of conditions is extremely important. LIIs are better at understanding the situation and strategizing, but they cannot roll with the punches while maintaining the image.

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

I've seen this behaviour in their private lives where they seem to preside over the festivities but not really participate - thus perhaps maintaining a slightly superior position from which no kind of loss is possible. I don't mean this in a negative way; corporations look for people who exhibit LIE-like behaviour (whether they be LIE or not) and I've taken enough executive screening tests to understand that the ability to read the situation, adapt, and maintain an image under all sorts of conditions is extremely important. LIIs are better at understanding the situation and strategizing, but they cannot roll with the punches while maintaining the image.

a.k.a. I/O

I prefer to stay slightly in the background during parties. There are other types who are much better than me at maintaining a festive mood.

A few years ago at the company Christmas party, an SEI and her husband were playing the piano and someone knew that I could sing, so I got "encouraged" to sing a few Christmas songs. Most everyone joined in, but I led it off. A big part of the act of singing in public involves just acting like you are sure of what you are doing, and others will eventually join in. If you are timid or unsure, it just makes everyone else timid and unsure.

But this is not my preferred approach. I feel it is better to have someone else publicly running the party.

[FDG]

I've seen this behaviour in their private lives where they seem to preside over the festivities but not really participate - thus perhaps maintaining a slightly superior position from which no kind of loss is possible. I don't mean this in a negative way; corporations look for people who exhibit LIE-like behaviour (whether they be LIE or not) and I've taken enough executive screening tests to understand that the ability to read the situation, adapt, and maintain an image under all sorts of conditions is extremely important. LIIs are better at understanding the situation and strategizing, but they cannot roll with the punches while maintaining the image.

a.k.a. I/O

Yes, but I wouldn't attach a machiaviellian motive to this behavior, it's often simply due to lack of confidence in your own diplomacy, something many LIEs learn throughout their lives.

[Rebelondeck]

Yes, but I wouldn't attach a machiaviellian motive to this behavior, it's often simply due to lack of confidence in your own diplomacy, something many LIEs learn throughout their lives.

I agree that it isn't Machiavellian by nature but XIEs tend to want to 'actively' protect their images whether they have confidence or not; and some are much better at it than others. This seems to be linked to idealistic perceptions of the way that they think things should be and they include themselves and those close in that mix. Image is far more important to IXIs but they tend to look defensive when protecting them so they're rather poor at selling any sizzle......
a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

I agree that it isn't Machiavellian by nature but XIEs tend to want to 'actively' protect their images whether they have confidence or not; and some are much better at it than others. This seems to be linked to idealistic perceptions of the way that they think things should be and they include themselves and those close in that mix. Image is far more important to IXIs but they tend to look defensive when protecting them so they're rather poor at selling any sizzle......
a.k.a. I/O

It is true that I am very conscious of the image I project. At the same time, I can say really stupid and offensive things, sometimes without meaning to. I haven't figured this out yet.

I am currently dating again, and I'm becoming aware of how important to me a woman's looks are. One of the first things I try to decide is whether we would look like a "couple", and how my friends and associates would view her (and don't tell me that you don't do this). The actual first things I consider are, "Is she ESI?" and "Does she have beautiful eyes?" And only then do I consider how she might be a visual match, or what image she projects. And flashy is not what I want. Lol. Rather, I'm going for "intelligent and kind".

[Adam Strange]

I'm really not sure how the PoLR affects the ego functions*, but I will say that my Si-PoLR causes me to be attracted to types which have high-dimensional Si. These include SLI's (ex-wife), SEI's (office secretary with by far the best taste in office arrangements and dress), LSI's (two ex-GF's) and ESI's.

Like my Fi-seeking, my attraction to Si is probably a result of my realizing that I suck at it, so I'm looking for someone who can help me with that.

The 4D Si is hidden in LSI's and ESI's, or at least is expressed differently. Both SLI's and SEI's seem to have impeccable taste in dress and furnishings, with the SEI's being more "fun" and the SLI's being more "of durable value". In comparison, the ESI's and LSI's have also been well-turned out, but not at the level of presentation that the SLI's and SEI's have managed.

*EDIT* A better framing of this question might be "How does the PoLR compare to the Dual-seeking function?", because Dual-seeking is directly related to the ego functions.

[Rebelondeck]

...... One of the first things I try to decide is whether we would look like a "couple", and how my friends and associates would view her (and don't tell me that you don't do this)........

Physical attractiveness isn't type related but how I view the person is the only thing that's important to me; how others see them is unimportant because I'm somewhat immune to or detached from the opinions of others. My worst fear is looking stupid in my own eyes....
a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

Physical attractiveness isn't type related but how I view the person is the only thing that's important to me; how others see them is unimportant because I'm somewhat immune to or detached from the opinions of others. My worst fear is looking stupid in my own eyes....
a.k.a. I/O

Yes, that corresponds exactly to the LII's whom I know. Although, I will add, that the LII's I know do seem to be actually sensitive to the opinions of others (they want to appear smart, rather than great humanitarians, for example), but they don't want to appear to be sensitive and don't seem to be easily able to manipulate or affect other people's opinions, and hence might be doing a "sour grapes" thing.

In any case, if I were immune to or detached from the opinions of others (which I am not), why would I need any help in this area?

[Rebelondeck]

........that the LII's I know do seem to be actually sensitive to the opinions of others (they want to appear smart, rather than great humanitarians, for example), but they don't want to appear to be sensitive and don't seem to be easily able to manipulate or affect other people's opinions.......

You're right that LIIs make terrible manipulators, and liars as well - most become aware of that quite early on in life. They might appear sensitive but only if they actually agreed with the opinions being expressed at the moment. They do really want to appear competent but only to themselves and usually don't care what others think because they've probably also assessed their competence to criticise. When studying LII, don't look through LIE glasses.....
a.k.a. I/O

[anndelise]

to the OP:
Don't forget the hidden agenda's influence. Often times the route that a type takes to utilize HA information (which they value) will superficially appear to be them attempting to utilize POLR information. So an outsider might assume that the person is pursuing or interested in POLR information, when in reality it's them pursuing or interested in HA information. For example, Ne subtype trying to work with Te information, with the Fi information guiding their efforts might appear on the surface (to the observer) to be them trying to work with Ti information.

[Tallmo]

to the OP:
Don't forget the hidden agenda's influence. Often times the route that a type takes to utilize HA information (which they value) will superficially appear to be them attempting to utilize POLR information. So an outsider might assume that the person is pursuing or interested in POLR information, when in reality it's them pursuing or interested in HA information. For example, Ne subtype trying to work with Te information, with the Fi information guiding their efforts might appear on the surface (to the observer) to be them trying to work with Ti information.

The person is not interested in PoLR information, socionically speaking. They just deal with it with the ego functions. So superficially it seems like they are interested in it. It becomes a theme, although the ego processes it, following the feedback from the polr.

The actual use of PoLR function is minimal.

[Shapeless]

@Playing With Fire

About LIE and Si.

There was an old fisherman sit at boat shadow. He was smoking a pipe, and just looking the sea in silence, taking the rest he deserved for his hard work.
A rich business man was going to examine a large boat, to decide if it was useful to acquire it and exapand his business. He passed in front of the old fisher man and when he saw him resting, he was really surprised.
'Why are you resting and not fishing?? asked at the old man.
'Why I sholud?' replied him.
'Because in this way you can buy another boat and take more fishes'
'And then?'
'Gain more money, buy another boat with better tools, expand your market with better fishes'
'And then?'
'Have so much money to buy a big fleet of fishing boats, and launch your fishes on global market'
'And then?'
'Then, you can finally rest and enjoy your life'
'And what do you think I'm doing in this moment?'

IDK if this is correct (I mean, is a story, IDK if the business man was really a LIE and the fisherman a Si type) but I think it replies at your question in some way.

[Hope]

About Si PoLR in LIEs.
Indeed they fail at looking and being natural, but the real problem is not just they physical rigidity, but the psychological one.
They are unnatural in the psychological sphere but
Its goes far more psyche, its also ignoring the natural flow of things, ppl and events with Si factor. It seems like they would arrange and command everything and everyone to fill their own will and 'vision' if they werent so Se weak. Lol
It works with their Te and Ni because they seek efficiency in time/result equation, but they don't care about considering the natural flow of things and the deeds of human nature.

Thats why they have SLIs as superv. Because we have Te and Ni too, and care for efficiency and time/result, but we can consider the Si factors of human nature that LIEs fail at seeing. They can be all good with prospection but without taking Si into account they will have a lot of trial and error before achieving consistent results. Especially if they work with ppl or managing groups.
Sometimes it seems likw they consider or use ppl as if they were unanimated objectd, like tools instead of beings. They can create a very unconfortable feeling or atmosphere.