Beta ST Club

[Ezra]

I'm going to start this if there's enough interest.

Benefits of Membership

- You can parade around some kind of signature which shows just how legendary we are
- You will command the respect of not just the huge amount of IEIs and EIEs on here, but probably ILIs, SEIs, ESEs and LIEs
- You will look awesome

Criteria for Membership

- You must be Beta ST
- You must be UDP

When enough of us show interest, we'll devise a signature that Beta STs can wear, and other types can covet like the dirt they are (Beta NFs fear not; you are hierarchically brilliant, and if this doesn't go down well, we'll create another club for ALL Betas).

JOIN TODAY, AND WEAR YOUR SIGNATURE WITH PRIDE!

[Darkstar]

Hey, carla!

show that ...

eh, to be ontopic I think the criteria will limit the number of members to 2, what do you other people say?

[UDP]

I'm going to start this if there's enough interest.

Benefits of Membership

- You can parade around some kind of signature which shows just how legendary we are
- You will command the respect of not just the huge amount of IEIs and EIEs on here, but probably ILIs, SEIs, ESEs and LIEs
- You will look awesome

Criteria for Membership

- You must be Beta ST
- You must be UDP

When enough of us show interest, we'll devise a signature that Beta STs can wear, and other types can covet like the dirt they are (Beta NFs fear not; you are hierarchically brilliant, and if this doesn't go down well, we'll create another club for ALL Betas).

JOIN TODAY, AND WEAR YOUR SIGNATURE WITH PRIDE!

Ezra you have terrible logic. And I'm not even saying you aren't ESTp, unlike your own self, at this time.

You can't decide of I'm ESI or LSI. You're enroute to calling me LII, because you "resent" my "lack of Se" the most - it's been done before.

It's like if you keep making huge claims, and changing them, one of them has to be right!

And you just excluded yourself from your own damn club, Mr Beta ST.

Criteria for Membership

- You must be Beta ST
- You must be UDP

So now there's only one beta ST on the forum, and, apparently he is a moralizing E5.


Sure makes me want to vote for you as admin of wikisocion........



More serious: Ezra did something happen in your life that is making you focus on socionics so much? You seem to be overdoing it. Maybe you need a break or something.

[discojoe]

I'm joining, with the caveat that I am neither Beta ST nor UDP.

[Wittmont]

So it will be like a Beta ST club for Gentlemen without Beta ST's and no Gentlemen?

[Ezra]

Ezra you have terrible logic. And I'm not even saying you aren't ESTp, unlike your own self, at this time.

You can't decide of I'm ESI or LSI. You're enroute to calling me LII, because you "resent" my "lack of Se" the most - it's been done before.

It's like if you keep making huge claims, and changing them, one of them has to be right!

And you just excluded yourself from your own damn club, Mr Beta ST.
So now there's only one beta ST on the forum, and, apparently he is a moralizing E5.


Sure makes me want to vote for you as admin of wikisocion........



More serious: Ezra did something happen in your life that is making you focus on socionics so much? You seem to be overdoing it. Maybe you need a break or something.

I find people interesting. I'm not really overdoing it, as I explained that I devote around 10% of my life it. Or was it 5%? Can't remember. Bottom line is, fuck off, UDP, and worry about yourself. I can assure you, there are far more positive, healthy, normal sentiments on this board regarding me than there are you. You're the one with the problems, not me.

[discojoe]

Whatever, UDP. At least my head isn't shaped like a vagina.

[Ezra]

Whatever, UDP. At least my head isn't shaped like a vagina.

Haahaahahaha

Ezra, is this really a way to talk about your POLR and DS? Granted, perhaps you misunderstand them so much you're liable to talk nonsense about them. The first quote is pretty unambiguous though.

Course it's fucking unambiguous. It is in short telling UDP to fuck off. He's an idiot.

DS wtf?

[Darkstar]

Carla, I'll come back for you.

[Ezra]

'

Sorry, that's my abbreviation for the "dual-seeking [function]"

No no no, I know what it is. I was just saying, that is how I... felt about Ni.

I've since (today, coincidentally) realised that I am not as adept in Ni as I thought I was.

Regardless of why you said it [which itself raises another point, but maybe later], how you said it isn't what I would have expected from a type remarkable for its insecurity with .

Well, when people say good things about me, and people say bad things about UDP, it's clearly obvious that more people like me than they do him. He's a little bitch, I'm not.

[Ezra]

Why?

Because in life, Ni as I understand it; I just don't use it. I've begun to see situations in which you can use Ni, and how I don't use it in said situations e.g. watching films or reading books and keeping track of the time and the characters and how they relate to each other, and how the time scale fits in with them, and how information in non-fiction books has a chronology which relates to the information so that a Ni adept individual, especially, perhaps, a Gamma NT would be able to keep up with all of said information very easily, keeping track of all the characters in the film or book, even when there's a lot of info to take in.

Or why did you trust the "feeling"?

I always trust my instinct.

I'm not quite sure about your premise or your conclusion.

Well I am. I take "I <333 Ezra" to mean that someone likes me. I take "Whatever, UDP. At least my head isn't shaped like a vagina" to mean that UDP is a prick.

[Ezra]

Apparently so [here], but instincts differ in the stimuli they respond to, is what might be more interesting.

The stimuli my instincts respond to are my thoughts.

Well as an analogy, it sounds like an LII taking close note of their physical state (which itself is something they'll do with only limited frequency and confidence) and then declaring, assuring, they're a tougher, more powerful person than someone else.

Out with it. What are you suggesting?

[UDP]

That's a very cute post, Allie. Thank you.

[Minde]

To start off with and as an aside - Just because more people like you doesn't make you a better person. Anyway...


Ezra, you have no right to complain about attacks from UDP. You were the author of this thread, right? And the point of this thread was... what? From what I understand, it was a jab at UDP, at least partly. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

If you throw mud at someone, you can't complain if they throw mud back at you. If you hit someone, you can't complain if they hit you back. You jabbed UDP, he jabbed back. If you can't take what you dish out, stop dishing it out.


UDP - and I mean this in the nicest possible way - you're an idiot to respond to such harmless provocation. I know you know better. Why do you feel you have to say anything? Why do you let what he says get to you? Unless his words have some weight, you should have no need to react to them.


Honestly, both of you disgust me right now. Your bickering is so pointless and messy. And, believe me or not, I'm only saying this because I actually have a bit of liking for both of you. Otherwise I wouldn't really care what you say to each other. You could bash each other silly, for all I care, because you both deserve it. But I do like you and it's stuff like this petty squabbling that repels me. The people I esteem and like have more respect for themselves and others.

I understand that I am small and insignificant and that most people likely couldn't care either way what I think of them. And that's fine; I can accept that. But if you do happen to care what I think, please take into account that this behavior is repulsive to me.

[Darkstar]

I saw a pic of UDP he looks like batman!!

[Ezra]

It's just that there are some literally obvious stimuli (the 5 senses and such) but whether or not one has Ni doesn't typically fall beneath that category.



Whether or not there's anything amiss here, there would still appear to be open sides to your "box". So it may be premature to insist upon reading between the line segments.

So in other words you're saying you don't think I am definitely an SLE.

To start off with and as an aside - Just because more people like you doesn't make you a better person. Anyway...


Ezra, you have no right to complain about attacks from UDP. You were the author of this thread, right? And the point of this thread was... what? From what I understand, it was a jab at UDP, at least partly. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

If you throw mud at someone, you can't complain if they throw mud back at you. If you hit someone, you can't complain if they hit you back. You jabbed UDP, he jabbed back. If you can't take what you dish out, stop dishing it out.


UDP - and I mean this in the nicest possible way - you're an idiot to respond to such harmless provocation. I know you know better. Why do you feel you have to say anything? Why do you let what he says get to you? Unless his words have some weight, you should have no need to react to them.


Honestly, both of you disgust me right now. Your bickering is so pointless and messy. And, believe me or not, I'm only saying this because I actually have a bit of liking for both of you. Otherwise I wouldn't really care what you say to each other. You could bash each other silly, for all I care, because you both deserve it. But I do like you and it's stuff like this petty squabbling that repels me. The people I esteem and like have more respect for themselves and others.

I understand that I am small and insignificant and that most people likely couldn't care either way what I think of them. And that's fine; I can accept that. But if you do happen to care what I think, please take into account that this behavior is repulsive to me.

Eh eh eh! There'll be enough of that!

If you're repulsed by something, that's your problem, not mine.

I can say what the fuck I like to UDP. If he provokes me, I do likewise. And vice versa. It's the way of the world. I think he's a dick, and he thinks... whatever he... thinks of... people. It's the way of nature; of human interaction. I don't belt up just because it's respectful to do so. I respect people worth respecting - honest, independent characters with strong integrity; not that worth less than dirt on my trainer.

[Minde]

If you're repulsed by something, that's your problem, not mine.

Take heed to your own words then, please. If you don't like UDP, by your logic here you should keep it to yourself and not bother other people with it.

...And, as I already indicated, I realize that you are free to listen or not listen to me. But that does not mean that by necessity I must remain silent. Only that you can ignore me if you wish. There's no one forcing you to read this.

I can say what the fuck I like to UDP.

Then, if you are consistent, you should be fine with me saying what I like to you. And, to carry it further, you should be fine with whatever UDP says, too.

If he provokes me, I do likewise. And vice versa. It's the way of the world. I think he's a dick, and he thinks... whatever he... thinks of... people. It's the way of nature; of human interaction.

It may be the way of the world, but that doesn't make it right or good. It may be the way of nature, but I believe people can be better than mere animals.

I don't belt up just because it's respectful to do so. I respect people worth respecting - honest, independent characters with strong integrity; not that worth less than dirt on my trainer.

Integrity, huh? Do you strive for that?

[Ezra]

...And, as I already indicated, I realize that you are free to listen or not listen to me. But that does not mean that by necessity I must remain silent. Only that you can ignore me if you wish. There's no one forcing you to read this.

I know there isn't. But I won't ignore you, because I respect you.

Then, if you are consistent, you should be fine with me saying what I like to you. And, to carry it further, you should be fine with whatever UDP says, too.

I said nothing about anything being "fine". I have a right to defend myself, as does UDP. As do you.

Integrity, huh? Do you strive for that?

Yes. Why?

[Minde]

I know there isn't. But I won't ignore you, because I respect you.

Why in the world do you respect me? I'm not the smartest, or most knowledgeable, or the loudest, or the strongest, or the nicest, or the funniest, or cleverest, or most logical, or most beautiful, or the best at anything. In fact, I'm a failure at a great many things. (And no, I'm not fishing for compliments, so just be honest in whatever you reply.)

I said nothing about anything being "fine". I have a right to defend myself, as does UDP. As do you.

Yes, you have the right to defend yourself (usually). But, in this case, you were the aggressor and instigator. And I think that things like what you started/stirred up here are not only unnecessary but harmful.

Yes. Why?

Integrity is the quality of honesty and strong moral principles. Honesty is free of deceit and unfaithfulness; it is sincere. Morality is concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

Do you think picking fights with UDP is right behavior? Or, do you think verbally browbeating people and calling them names is evidence of good character?

I haven't had much opportunity to test your honesty (or lack thereof, if it is so), so I cannot comment with certainty on that yet. But, right now, I am having difficulty seeing positive signs of strong moral principles in you. So I found/find it interesting that you do (or say you do) strive for integrity.

[Ezra]

Why in the world do you respect me? I'm not the smartest, or most knowledgeable, or the loudest, or the strongest, or the nicest, or the funniest, or cleverest, or most logical, or most beautiful, or the best at anything. In fact, I'm a failure at a great many things. (And no, I'm not fishing for compliments, so just be honest in whatever you reply.)

I respect you because you are the only person on this board that with all honesty I can say is angelic; a wholly good person. So I know that I can trust you absolutely when it comes down to the morally correct course of action to take.

Yes, you have the right to defend yourself (usually). But, in this case, you were the aggressor and instigator. And I think that things like what you started/stirred up here are not only unnecessary but harmful.

You're right.

UDP, I'm sorry for what I said to you.

Integrity is the quality of honesty and strong moral principles. Honesty is free of deceit and unfaithfulness; it is sincere. Morality is concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.

Do you think picking fights with UDP is right behavior? Or, do you think verbally browbeating people and calling them names is evidence of good character?

Do you believe in an objective right and an objective wrong? Or would you like to believe this but you recognise that what you deem to be right and wrong is actually your own brand of morality which, coincidentally, is held by many others within society (e.g. harming others unprovoked is wrong)?

I haven't had much opportunity to test your honesty (or lack thereof, if it is so), so I cannot comment with certainty on that yet. But, right now, I am having difficulty seeing positive signs of strong moral principles in you. So I found/find it interesting that you do (or say you do) strive for integrity.

One of the things in life my mother has always noted was my practical inability to lie. I have lied in the past (although said lies were never "outright" lies), but I find it extremely difficult to do so. I feel as if I am turning bad as I lie. I don't like this feeling.

[Minde]

I respect you because you are the only person on this board that with all honesty I can say is angelic; a wholly good person. So I know that I can trust you absolutely when it comes down to the morally correct course of action to take.

(*sigh* I shouldn't have asked the question. When I wrote it I had a direction I wanted to go, but that was late at night and now I can't remember. So now I'm awkwardly stuck. I'll make what I can of it, though...)

I'm only angelic in the sense that I occasionally bear messages. Like the one I'm giving you now. Definitely, definitely not wholly good. I'm sorry if that disappoints you.


...By the way, did you know that the last angel of the forum was Diana? That was before she got in fights with Gilly. Maybe I should get in fights with people... to make me more "real" and "normal"... except I don't like fighting. Hm...

You're right.

UDP, I'm sorry for what I said to you.

Wow, if you meant that, I respect you more.

Do you believe in an objective right and an objective wrong? Or would you like to believe this but you recognise that what you deem to be right and wrong is actually your own brand of morality which, coincidentally, is held by many others within society (e.g. harming others unprovoked is wrong)?

I believe in an objective right and wrong.

One of the things in life my mother has always noted was my practical inability to lie. I have lied in the past (although said lies were never "outright" lies), but I find it extremely difficult to do so. I feel as if I am turning bad as I lie. I don't like this feeling.

I don't lie well, either. It's terribly uncomfortable.

[Ezra]

I believe in an objective right and wrong.

Then that is where we differ. I don't. I don't believe that there are things which are defined as right and wrong for every single person. I don't believe that an action can in itself be morally labelled.

[UDP]

To start off with and as an aside - Just because more people like you doesn't make you a better person. Anyway...


Ezra, you have no right to complain about attacks from UDP. You were the author of this thread, right? And the point of this thread was... what? From what I understand, it was a jab at UDP, at least partly. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

If you throw mud at someone, you can't complain if they throw mud back at you. If you hit someone, you can't complain if they hit you back. You jabbed UDP, he jabbed back. If you can't take what you dish out, stop dishing it out.


UDP - and I mean this in the nicest possible way - you're an idiot to respond to such harmless provocation. I know you know better. Why do you feel you have to say anything? Why do you let what he says get to you? Unless his words have some weight, you should have no need to react to them.


Honestly, both of you disgust me right now. Your bickering is so pointless and messy. And, believe me or not, I'm only saying this because I actually have a bit of liking for both of you. Otherwise I wouldn't really care what you say to each other. You could bash each other silly, for all I care, because you both deserve it. But I do like you and it's stuff like this petty squabbling that repels me. The people I esteem and like have more respect for themselves and others.

I understand that I am small and insignificant and that most people likely couldn't care either way what I think of them. And that's fine; I can accept that. But if you do happen to care what I think, please take into account that this behavior is repulsive to me.

absolute truth - this, right now, is the first time I saw this post.


(I had not bothered to look at the thread until now because I thought it would be pointless to return to it after my last post.)

[UDP]

UDP, I'm sorry for what I said to you.

Don't worry about it.
I apologize for the (many) things I've said to you.


If had seen this sooner it would have affected my actions elsewhere on the forum. I think I have said things in covering a variety of natures and demeanors towards you, some positive and some negative, but now that I have seen this, I will act with knowing what has transpired in this thread.

[UDP]

UDP - and I mean this in the nicest possible way - you're an idiot to respond to such harmless provocation. I know you know better. Why do you feel you have to say anything? Why do you let what he says get to you?

I really don't know. It's not a thought oriented thing, it's a visceral reaction.

Unless his words have some weight, you should have no need to react to them.

I'm working on it.

Honestly, both of you disgust me right now. Your bickering is so pointless and messy. And, believe me or not, I'm only saying this because I actually have a bit of liking for both of you. Otherwise I wouldn't really care what you say to each other. You could bash each other silly, for all I care, because you both deserve it. But I do like you and it's stuff like this petty squabbling that repels me. The people I esteem and like have more respect for themselves and others.

Mmm. I agree it was pointless and messy.
I'm glad that you like us enough to care.

I wonder if this is one of those two things where if two guys got into a scuffle (fisticuffs) it would sort of beat each other up a bit, it would work itself out. I'm not really an advocate of that, and there is the potential that it could actually backfire and make things worse. But, clearly, we're fighting over nothing important (on the forum), so perhaps some sort of trivial thing like that would be what, instinctively, we're both leaning towards. Sometimes, guys that "dislike" each other get into a scuffle and then become great friends. Anyways, it's unlikely that it will happen, but it was just something I thought of now.

I understand that I am small and insignificant and that most people likely couldn't care either way what I think of them. And that's fine; I can accept that. But if you do happen to care what I think, please take into account that this behavior is repulsive to me.

I don't think you are insignificant or small, I do care what you think, and I will keep in mind that you don't like that sort of behavior.

[Minde]

Then that is where we differ. I don't. I don't believe that there are things which are defined as right and wrong for every single person. I don't believe that an action can in itself be morally labelled.

There's something wrong with that - moral relativity - both logically and practically, but I can't sufficiently articulate it right now (mainly due to lack of time and inclination). So, instead, I'll just give you this - If you respect me as a moral person, perhaps it could be to your benefit to consider my way of thinking? Or, put another way, perhaps I appear as moral as I do because of the way I believe? I can tell you this, if I believed differently I would be a different person.

[strrrng]

his thread is full of shit. UDP is continuously harassed and verbally assaulted all over the forum, and he can't say shit for fear people will use sheerly vulgar and obscene language against him. I'm not defending him just because I like the guy or because he is in anyway fully innocent over these years, but the response to this thread borders on disgusting, save for Minde.

He can say shit. Or better yet - he can NOT say shit. He can not say stupid stuff that deserves critical responses.

And if we assume that UDP's post was stupid(it was slightly, but this is the past), did he need such visceral comments such as "fuck you"? It simply continues the cycle of idiocy and was entirely uncalled for, along with showing an inability to discuss civilly.

It wasn't just stupid; it was presumptuous and pathetic.

Nick, wtf? Allie brought the forum to new lows of moral deprivation, and you say she made UDP look like an idiot. More like herself. What was he supposed to say, "Girl, don't make me take off my belt!"? What he said actually bordered on admirable, refusing to continue the rampant showing of bullshit from all sides.

What she said to UDP about not judging people on how he thinks they should or shouldn't live made perfect sense to me. What "moral deprivation" are you referring to? lol, the reason he responded that way was because she was correct in assessing his motives and he had nothing better to say.

[strrrng]

wtf lol, kamangir, your post is gone.

[Ezra]

There's something wrong with that - moral relativity - both logically and practically, but I can't sufficiently articulate it right now (mainly due to lack of time and inclination). So, instead, I'll just give you this - If you respect me as a moral person, perhaps it could be to your benefit to consider my way of thinking? Or, put another way, perhaps I appear as moral as I do because of the way I believe? I can tell you this, if I believed differently I would be a different person.

That was what was going through my head as I responded. It seems I've hit a logical snare. Why would I trust you morally if I don't believe in your moral code? Perhaps I want to trust you morally, even though I know I can't.

[Ezra]

wtf lol, kamangir, your post is gone.

That's because it's destructive and a disgrace to the dominating atmosphere, which is one of forgiveness and respect.

[Minde]

when you've got the time, I'd be totally interested in hearing why my worldview is illogical and impractical please!

I'd like to hear it as well.

Sure, I will attempt to present my understanding of life, the universe, and everything in a coherent and readable manner. It might be awhile though, just to warn you. Writing a treatise on moral relativism, especially if there's a low likelihood of actually convincing or changing anyone, is not going to rise to the top of my to-do list for the foreseeable future, not with the million-and-one other pressing (and probably more enjoyable if not profitable) things competing for my time and attention. And when I do, I'll probably either PM it to you or put it in another thread so as to foster topical integrity.

But until then, my short answer is that following both paths to their conclusions and consequences, I find that objective morality makes the most sense to me and offers the best hope for happiness and peace for both individuals and everybody collectively.

That was what was going through my head as I responded. It seems I've hit a logical snare. Why would I trust you morally if I don't believe in your moral code? Perhaps I want to trust you morally, even though I know I can't.

Hm, yes, 'tis a dilemma indeed. What are you going to do about it?

(What is kind of funny to me, though, is that in several places in this thread you have used what I can only consider universal moral principles - respect and trust - assuming without thought that I share the same principles.)

That's because it's destructive and a disgrace to the dominating atmosphere, which is one of forgiveness and respect.

Is that what this is to you, "the dominating atmosphere"? Meaning, in another "atmosphere" you'd... be different than you are now, and disagree with me?

[UDP]

I appreciate Kam defending me - he did that out of his respect for me, and that in turn garners respect from me. He knows how I feel about the whole matter as I spoke with him already.

A caution to those concerned: taking things further may be just as unnecessary as my response to Ezra's original post.

[Ezra]

(What is kind of funny to me, though, is that in several places in this thread you have used what I can only consider universal moral principles - respect and trust - assuming without thought that I share the same principles.)

Do you honestly think everyone believes respect and trust are universal principles?

Is that what this is to you, "the dominating atmosphere"? Meaning, in another "atmosphere" you'd... be different than you are now, and disagree with me?

I see the atmosphere in terms of what values - what feelings - are predominant at that particular time.

[Minde]

Do you honestly think everyone believes respect and trust are universal principles?

Does everyone have to believe it for it to be true?

I take into account what other people think and believe, but I do not always follow along with it. I also take into account my own perceptions and thoughts. So I do not understand the point of your question.

I see the atmosphere in terms of what values - what feelings - are predominant at that particular time.

That wasn't what I was asking.

[Ezra]

Does everyone have to believe it for it to be true?

No one has to believe something for it to be true. Truth is independent of belief. However, I personally disagree that morality is objective, and since you believe it is so, this is something that we will forever disagree on. However, if and only if morality is described as one individual's perception of what should be the case, then, yes, I believe honesty and trust are universally and morally correct.

I take into account what other people think and believe, but I do not always follow along with it. I also take into account my own perceptions and thoughts. So I do not understand the point of your question.

The point of my question was, in hindsight, non-existent. Sorry for wasting time.

That wasn't what I was asking.

Then yes, I believe this to be the "dominant atmosphere".

[Minde]

No one has to believe something for it to be true. Truth is independent of belief. However, I personally disagree that morality is objective, and since you believe it is so, this is something that we will forever disagree on. However, if and only if morality is described as one individual's perception of what should be the case, then, yes, I believe honesty and trust are universally and morally correct.

You started off fine, but the end is a little hard to understand. And, I'd be careful when using absolute words like "forever" "never" and "always." It's far too easy to be wrong when applying them.

Then yes, I believe this to be the "dominant atmosphere".

...still not what I was asking. I didn't want to know what you think of the atmosphere, I wanted to know of you and what you are made of.

[Ezra]

You started off fine, but the end is a little hard to understand.

Where I started "however", I probably should've split that into a second paragraph. That was essentially another musing.

And, I'd be careful when using absolute words like "forever" "never" and "always." It's far too easy to be wrong when applying them.

I'll face the consequences.

...still not what I was asking. I didn't want to know what you think of the atmosphere, I wanted to know of you and what you are made of.

I'm not made of moralistic fibre by any means. I'm like an honesty machine. Flexible morality is not morality. I only maintain morals that are useful on a broad spectrum in life.