Enneagram type of Adolf ******

[machintruc]

Most socionists agree he's EIE. Some myersians type him INFJ. There's not so much hesitation to have here.

But he was enneatyped E4, E6 and E8. I rather think he's E2. Why ?

- Most EIE are E2.
- He seems to relate so much on E8 and E4, which both arrow to E2...
- Although he's known for his hateful politics, he liked his country and his compatriots.
- With his wife, he was known to be very tactful and affectionate.
- ****** was a skilled manipulator.
- ****** seemed "histrionic", "dramatic" in his speeches. This relates mostly to E2w3.
- I have a E2w3-EIE-INFJ aunt. Her communication style seems to be very correlated to ******'s.

Remember : we're talking types here. This is not a political debate.

[Ezra]

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/fo...?TOPIC_ID=8516

[Expat]

I'm inclined to think 4w3.

It's necessary to look at him during his youth - he seemed always on the look for the "vision thing" in his life. Perhaps more than anti-semitism, or even lust for power, his consistent characteristic seemed to be, "I am meant for big things, I am someone important" - only, it's worth repeating, his initial aspiration was to be an artist, then, failing that, an architect. I think it's safe to speculate that, if ****** had had more artistic talent and had been accepted by the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna, he'd have become more like the "typical" 4w3 artist (if also an anti-semitic one) rather than go into politics, which he did after failing in arts and after being in WWI.

[Ezra]

Also, Germany's mistreation because of Versailles led to a lot of his hatred and anger, and probably much of his motivation for wishing to "restore Germany to its former glory".

[zenbrat]

I type him as a 6w5 that went from bad to worse.


Level 6: The Authoritarian Rebel

"At Level 6, it is very difficult for a Six to work for something. Instead, their energies are galvanized in being against people and things. They are the classic revolutionaries who, having overcome their enemies, find themselves uninterested in the work of setting up a more just system. Indeed, Sixes at this stage need enemies to discharge their anxieties. If there was no one to blame for their problems, their guilt and fears about themselves would escalate - a prospect intolerable to them at this Level. If there is no clearly defined enemy, overcompensating Sixes will will find one, settling on a scapegoat of some sort as the focus for their aggressions. One of the uglier aspects of Sixes at this stage is their need to have a person or group on whom they can release their pent-up anxieties. Their scapegoats are always assigned the basest motives so that Sixes will feel justified in dealing with them in whatever way satisfies their emotional needs." -- Personality Types (1996), p. 241.


The Six with a Five-Wing: "The Defender"

"Unhealthy persons of this subtype become increasingly paranoid and obsessed with maintaining their security, and may go to great lengths to protect their position. They are extremely needy, and may abuse alcohol or drugs as a way of dealing with anxiety and paranoid delusions, as well as of bolstering their inferiority feelings. The Five-wing adds elements of cynicism and nihilism to the fearful mentality of the unhealthy Six, resulting in growing isolation, desperation, and a capacity for sociopathic actions. Intense stress will likely lead to outbursts of rage and extremely destructive behavior accompanied by breaks with reality. Self-sabotaging, self-destructive actions bring about humiliations and punishment to atone for guilt, although the extent and nature of their self-destructiveness will be hidden from others because of their reclusive nature. There may be strong propensity for violence as well as sadomasochistic tendencies in sexual expression. Murder and suicide are both very real possibilities." -- Personality Types (1996), pp. 255-256

6's are often quite artistic; in many cases, more so than 4's. It takes the detachment of a 5 wing (or a strong 'stress point' line to 5, as may occur in type 8), to execute scores of humanity in such a methodical and detached manner.

.

[Jarno]

Actually I've seen quite some documentary's of his life, and read the big psychological report of him that the americans made. It's can be downloaded somewhere on the internet. The report explains his drive for power which is not just a personality thing.

There are some things to consider.

Most people have this picture of him doing great speeches and such. But from the year 1939 he was taking speed pills, later on speed injections (amphetamine) This is an established fact as far as I know. This ofcourse alters his behaviour dramatically and makes typing difficult.

Then there are some minor facts, like that he has been kicked out of the swis army in his younger days, because of his terrible performance. He even got psychotic at that time. He was obsessed with his health and diseases throughout his life.

Most people see him as someone decisive. But there has been recorded that he changed his attack plan on a certain city 18 times.

I myself have no idea which type he could be. I don't even know any one of the dichotomy's for sure...

[WVBRY]

EDIT: Perhaps I should expound. 1W9s have a tendancy to embrace ideals that have little humanistic content(contrary to 1W2s). He was concerned with A PERFECT race, a PERFECT diet, a PERFECT lifestyle a PERFECT society etc. Hes been typed as 6 and 6W5 on some sites but Im not seeing that.

Any thoughts?

[Galen]

I'd always imagined him to be a 3 of some kind, although that's an unsubstantiated impression that I have no means of justifying atm. My experience with 1s is limited too so I can't say he's definitely one thing or the other. I would imagine, though, that if he was a 1 he would have been much less theatrical of an orator.

[Creepy-pokeball]

3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.

btw, Ryan Reynolds and the dude from Tron: Legacy, Garrett Hedlund, are ENFj 3's. Ryan Reynolds is a 3w4. I am unsure of Garrett's wing. Olivia Wilde, who is also in Tron: Legacy, is an ENTp 3. Her real name is Olivia Cockburn, and I only know this because she went to school with my ex, lol, who says Olivia is a raging bitch. Then again, I'm considering the source, lol.

and, fyi, ****** wasnt an ENFj, so kiss my ass.

[717495]

Yeah yeah I went to school with ****** he said his enneagram is 2.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Yeah yeah I went to school with ****** he said his enneagram is 2.

I'm sorry about your declining health and increasing age.

[Creepy-male]

I think he's an unusual 4, and his obsession with the perfection of the aryan race is some perverted concept of integration towards 1. I've read an entire case study they did on ******'s psychology, I found a link to it online one day and read through it, it was long and nuianced and went into great depth about the different phases of his life. I think if you look into how he acted prior to being a "fuhrer" or whatever, he was a very unremarkable individual, someone who most people would have looked at as a bum or someone insignificant. He was a messenger boy in WWI, that took his job real serious, and most of the commanders didn't like him and he had trouble fitting in.

plus something entitled "My struggle" which you write in prison seems a lot more emo than a typical e1.

[Creepy-pokeball]

The idealist triad, 1,4 and 7, are different from the idealism spoken about regarding ******. Its a whole other tangent. The perfectionism spoken of regarding ****** has more to do with basic psychology, which is different that Socionics or Enneagram. The latter two have more to do with how perfectionism would be processed or manifested. Regardless of Sociotype or Enneatype, it would still be there.

[WVBRY]

and, fyi, ****** wasnt an ENFj, so kiss my ass.

Euh, where did I say he was?

[Creepy-male]

The idealist triad, 1,4 and 7, are different from the idealism spoken about regarding ******. Its a whole other tangent.

You have to be clear on what you mean by idealist triad.

Here is the article I base a lot of my understanding of directional theory on...

http://www.9types.com/writeup/Theory20.htm

this is a good chart I find useful

Types     Direction 	Motivation 	   Strengths 	                                        Weaknesses
------    ----------    ---------------    --------------------------                           ------------------------------------------------------
2 5 8 	  Against 	Power-seeking 	   Inner will, fighting spirit 	                        Authoritarianism, possessiveness
7 4 1 	  Away 	        Ideal-seeking 	   Passion for universal truths and higher ideals 	Self-absorption, fantasy world mentality
6 9 3 	  Toward 	Approval-seeking   Likeability, ability to harmonize with life. 	Living life defined by others

Notice the 3 types in each category encompass a single heart, head, and gut triad.

It's possible to think of types in terms of head/heart/gut and motivation.

For example Gut;
Power-seeking = e8
Heart Ideal-seeking = e4
Head Approval-seeking = e6


An e1 is a Gut Ideal-seeking type.

[Creepy-pokeball]

The 2nd set, obviously, is the idealist triad. The first set has a lot of names. They all have a lot of names. The last set is often named the relating triad, and for good reason. Each of these triads is comprised of one of the 3 primary triads, the heart/shame, mind/anxiety, and gut/anger triads. Theyre easy to remember. The relating triads are often defenseless. In my mind, I see them as "human". I see the idealist triads like shields to the "human," and the (I call it "tenacious") triads like a weapon. I realize that this sounds very silly, but imagine how well the 4w5 can quells the 8w7 to show them the strength of their inner-self, and how well the 8w7 empowers the 4w5 to express an outer-being.

In the future, watch a 7w6. Watch as they spring off the toes of their feet in any direction. Watch as their whole body repositions itself at the cue of seemingly disparate external stimuli. They are always at the ready to spot and evade. Likewise, watch them with people as them relate so fluidly, yet so easily evade and seperate from them at will. Their shield, just like the 7w8, is their inherent evasion. Its in relation to how they arive from point A to point Z, their ideal. This is the way in which two seemlingly unrelated triads relate. This is where idealism, one of the 3 ways to compensate in regard to fear, and anxiety, one of the 3 primary fractals of fear, meet as one.

[Absurd]

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

The best fantasy writers always understand reality better than most people. Truth is stranger then fiction, good fantasy always makes 'more sense' then trying to describe real life 100% accurately, even if there are no superpowers, it's just weirder. A rich fantasy life is the capacity to categorize your life while still understanding the difference between your brain/mind and 'the others', it is an essential element of intelligence. Especially that of academic intelligence.

Life is how you write it. Writing is highly competitive, though the best writers are always in the highest positions of society- being 'realistic' is the mentality that makes someone stuck.

Art is never dead. It is just the most competitive and honestly brutal thing to do, to do accurately - art is actually competitive. Art is not the 'escapist' thing american society thinks it is.

[Absurd]

What do you call a guy taking his cues directly from Mussolini and later working with Mussolini, socionics-wise?

[Creepy-pokeball]

What do you call a guy taking his cues directly from Mussolini and later working with Mussolini, socionics-wise?

A bitch? lol

[Absurd]

A bitch? lol

I don't want to know what Pacelli is called, then

[Creepy-male]

The 2nd set, obviously, is the idealist triad.

Lol way to sound, obviously, condescending as fuck.

The idealist triad isn't about "pursuing ideals" or being a glassy-eyed naive star gazer who spends entire nights starring off into space daydreaming. Nor are they the idealist who is an advocate for a better world and believes that all problems are able to be solved through determination of the spirit and love.

To me I take a much more grounded approach to understanding what they mean by "idealist triad", I prefer the label ideal-seeking, because directional theory is about what direction you are pulled in and what in life magnetizes you -- what you repel from, what you are pulled towards, and how these convergences and divergences shape the individuals personality and subsequently how they characterize the relationships between individuals.

Ideal-seeking personalities in my understanding are those that are magnetized strongly towards ideals, the pure form of things that usually only exist as ideas and don't have corporeal forms that are manifested in reality. Because it is rare to see these pure things in existence, ideal-seeking personalities are typical repelled by the gritty realistic aspects of reality, they are detached from this, willfully ignorant and in their heads.

This manifests differently for each type;

The four being withdrawn and prone to melancholy will detach quite literally, being drawn into their inner world in order to cope with negative aspects of their life.
The seven is much less literal, they are embracing ideal-seeking, they detach from negative aspects by being scattered and shifting their focus to something more mentally stimulating in the moment.
The one is confronting ideal-seeking, they detach from the negative aspects in a more rebellious attitude, condemning what they dislike, and perfectionisticly weeding these things out of their life.

I don't see the idealist triad as "shields" though tbh.

I'd be interesting in hearing some people's arguments for why ****** is an e1, I personally hold to e4.

[WVBRY]

I'd be interesting in hearing some people's arguments for why ****** is an e1, I personally hold to e4.

E4 isnt a bad typing as Ive consoidered it myself when typing ****** as he was very much the bohemian when in his youth and tends to be whiny in a way that resmebles E4. I think he had a strong disintegration to E4 being type 1 though, he wasnt concerned with an aesthetic ideal as much as a moral one, the differnece between the ideals of fours and ones is that fours are a subjective ideal and an aeasthetic one, whereas ones hold to objective and moral ideals that help them climb the social latter in society.

Also this:

The one is confronting ideal-seeking, they detach from the negative aspects in a more rebellious attitude, condemning what they dislike, and perfectionisticly weeding these things out of their life.

sounds very much like ******; he condemned everything and everyone and weeded out what he didnt like better than any other human being in histrory, lol.

[Creepy-male]

yea ok that's a good argument so its pretty much a toss up between him being an e1 that disintegrated to 4 in his bohemian years or an e4 that integrated to e1 in his political years.

Also I disagree about the one being an objective moralist, I know that gets tossed around a lot but I think objective isn't the right word. E1's seem more principled than E4's -- E4's just kind of romantically feel out a situation but E1's try to latch onto principles. These principles may be objective structural things, but there source is a subjective. The process by which e1's form ideals as I understand is rather impulsive-- being a gut triad, they are not prone to think excessively on their ideals/principles, but rather to form them in a kind of brash impulsive way. If something instinctively feels "wrong" to them, they condemn it as evil, and form a sort of black and white mentality, which creates the foundation for these principles, which in turn creates the foundation for their outward behavior -- perfectionism and maintenance of their ideals.

E1's form their principles through an incredibly subjective process, because its all in an instinctive manner, what feels wrong, or what feels right. The objectivity comes into play once they've identified these little subjective nuggets. This of course creates a black and white thinking complex, which e1's are consistently struggling with, sometimes these principles will overlap and create confusion and lead to disintegration to 4, becoming moody and irrational.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Lol way to sound, obviously, condescending as fuck.

The idealist triad isn't about "pursuing ideals" or being a glassy-eyed naive star gazer who spends entire nights starring off into space daydreaming. Nor are they the idealist who is an advocate for a better world and believes that all problems are able to be solved through determination of the spirit and love.

To me I take a much more grounded approach to understanding what they mean by "idealist triad", I prefer the label ideal-seeking, because directional theory is about what direction you are pulled in and what in life magnetizes you -- what you repel from, what you are pulled towards, and how these convergences and divergences shape the individuals personality and subsequently how they characterize the relationships between individuals.

Ideal-seeking personalities in my understanding are those that are magnetized strongly towards ideals, the pure form of things that usually only exist as ideas and don't have corporeal forms that are manifested in reality. Because it is rare to see these pure things in existence, ideal-seeking personalities are typical repelled by the gritty realistic aspects of reality, they are detached from this, willfully ignorant and in their heads.

This manifests differently for each type;

The four being withdrawn and prone to melancholy will detach quite literally, being drawn into their inner world in order to cope with negative aspects of their life.
The seven is much less literal, they are embracing ideal-seeking, they detach from negative aspects by being scattered and shifting their focus to something more mentally stimulating in the moment.
The one is confronting ideal-seeking, they detach from the negative aspects in a more rebellious attitude, condemning what they dislike, and perfectionisticly weeding these things out of their life.

I don't see the idealist triad as "shields" though tbh.

I'd be interesting in hearing some people's arguments for why ****** is an e1, I personally hold to e4.

Whether or not you perceived my words to be condescending was entirely up to you. The intent was not there.

The idealists each have a coping mechanism which deals with an ideal. The 1 seeks what they believe, right, wrong or indifferent to others, what they see as a perfect. The 4 is prone to fantasy, which they eiter wish to express as real or delve into internally as their own sanctum. The 7 seeks a distant ideal(s), which can be short range or long range, and may even change at whim. They are all defenses, whether one is dealing with the ivory tower (the immoveable anger triad), the chesire cat (the expressive shame triad), or a fractal of lightning (the cerebral anxiety triad).

[Leader]

Either 1 or CP 6, most likely 6.

[Amber]

Enneagram cp 6 so/sp with strong 8 fix.

[Olly From Wally World]

Some type him 6. Naranjo and the Fauvres (tritype people) have him at sexual 4 which I can def see. Sx/So 468 or 461 also.

[Amber]

his exclusion tendencies arise more from SO motivations. Pure constructions grounded in a need for political power. Besides, he doesn't VI Sx/so by any means. Maybe some are turned on by his "rawest sexual charisma" though ...

I tend to see more 8 than 1 , but I did consider this gut fix. If it were theoretically possible (not that it shouldn't be ...), I would say combo of 1,8, 4, and 6 traits.

[Amber]

Great day for talking his ennea btw ... I swear it was by total chance.

[Olly From Wally World]

his exclusion tendencies arise more from SO motivations. Pure constructions grounded in a need for political power. Besides, he doesn't VI Sx/so by any means. Maybe some are turned on by his "rawest sexual charisma" though ...

I tend to see more 8 than 1 , but I did consider this gut fix. If it were theoretically possible (not that it shouldn't be ...), I would say combo of 1,8, 4, and 6 traits.

Haha, idk about raw sexual charisma but doubt Naranjo and the Fauvres typed him that way (or would at least hope not). Those weren't my personal typings but I would agree with sx/so 468. He does seem contra-flow but fits sx/so flavor better than so/sp to me.

sx/so - excluding, eliminating, dividing, separating, contradicting, subverting, confronting, rebuffing, ridiculing, challenging, interrupting, reforming, rupturing
so/sp - utilizing, employing, implementing, expending, exercising, spending, capitalizing, expropriating

Sx 4 energetic qualities:
dramatizing, intensifying, creating, competing, taking, seizing, opposing, beating, seeking, provoking, hating, killing, torching, creating, destroying, annihilating
So 6 energetic qualities:
supporting, conforming, saluting, respecting, affirming, confirming, ensuring, retaining, assisting, upholding, following, obeying, complying, serving

Social 6 sounds more like his henchmen, haha. Actually, Naranjo does say just that for social 6:

Social: Duty. This subtype is about being protected, being in a warm environment, which is a different
strategy from Strength and Beauty. In being a Social Six, you need rules and you become too dependent
on rules. The world is your stage, the rules are universal. This subtype is sometimes called "dutiful," but
is really not very dutiful; it brings up so much rebellion and sometimes they pretend to be much more
dutiful than they are. It's only the driven quality that's experienced as a super-ego. It's authority based on
a system. “******’s henchmen.”

I admit that I sort of ignore sx last a bit so not too sure about so/sp aside from impressions but with sx/so, I sort of associate it with an attraction to radical politics/movements causes, having strong passion and surety in their views and it seems less 'for the greater good' to me in a less practical and more exclusive way, being a social/sexual myself. Like they have their views and are passionate about them, naturally excluding others in the process. Sort of denying the humanity of others or groups. Like how Malcolm X spoke of the white man (understandable during his time), sort of making them sound like devils; radical feminists against penis-in-vagina intercourse, demonizing men and saying all sex is rape, etc. Like you get a sense that they're really passionate about a cause or ideology, attracting others to it and bringing them apart sometimes. An impression that they believe we can't live together harmoniously unless we change the fundamental structure of something. Break up the US government to make an independent black nation, change the way women and men mate (or whatever some radical feminists believe?), get all the non-aryans and non-germans out of Germany, etc. Haha, of course sx/so isn't necessarily evil but those were the first things to come to mind for me. And other stacks can revolutionize but it still has a different vibe.

Idk how so/sp would be with their contra-flow, maybe more aristocratic or elitist (although that can fit sx 4)? The picture you posted in the so/sp thread sort of fit my impression but I do want a better sense of that stack. I could see why you'd say so/sp. Is it how they seem concerned with class? Caste systems come to mind. Not hard to see some so/sp flavoring for him but want to hear more.

[Amber]

... bump ..?

is there anyone who considers ****** to be sx/so apart from some silly Beta NF who can barely distinguish their own mom from him ...? If yeah, it would be great to hear extra arguments... "excluding" doesn't seem enough.

@silke , @Galen ... @zap .. @strrrng ...

** Personally I think he's EIE Ecp 6 / E1 so/sp... a very unhealthy / distorted version , ofc.

[InvisibleJim]

Prolly ILE 3w4 sx/sp

[Galen]

I don't get how h8ler could have been sx-first. His whole deal was about constructing an ideal society ... what's Sx about that? So/Sp makes much more sense.

[strrrng]

my (brief) opinion is that his charisma was far too overt, showy and volatile for sx-last to work. he succeeded at magnetizing while maintaining a certain emotional distance, but the kind of detachment entailed wasn't the dry, deadpan detachment of so/sp, he wasn't really mired in social formality, but rather kept things just formal enough, with a very miniscule amount of energy on the periphery. he also had the tense charge that you can see in someone like malcolm x... so/sp figures are more accessible in a quaintly human kind of way, sx/so figures are more there for you to see... and while there's a latent reserve/remove to both, with so/sp you get more of a sense that this is just the way it is, there's an interpersonal code that always has to be sustained, whereas with sx/so it's more that they can disperse their energy within certain bounds. this is what I think you get with ******, a kind of distantly mechanized charge, not a dollhouse-esque front/facade. actually his semi-feminine comportment is a good example: on one level it can seem like he's just going through the motions, but upon closer inspection it's clear that there's a more fundamental, centralized energy being poured into things, he's not JUST there for social appeal, there's a somewhat disruptive and divergent charge emanating from him that betrays a deeper desire to impact and change things. an so/sp would never really involve themselves like he did. you can see how charisma is counter-balanced by these types in someone like jfk, their presence just isn't as pronounced. lastly, the vibrant emotionality also manifests in mein kampf, which basically consists of repeated attempts to incite the reader. there are no bare socio-political appeals, everything is designed to elicit maximum effect, and despite its fallaciousness and absurdity, its energy is pretty prominent. it pretty clearly showcases his tendency to get emotionally carried away, which I can't really see an so/sp doing... he was just a bit too immersed in his theatrics, so/sp's are more like witting puppets: they play their part and go on with things, as the 'act' is what's prioritized... ****** over-emphasized his expression to the point of absurdity, and let things follow from there. there's just no groundedness or pragmatic balance in his spiel, he merges with the audience and reshapes the nature of being a figurehead by the extremity of his antics. so yeah, sx/so imo.

[Olly From Wally World]

I don't get how h8ler could have been sx-first. His whole deal was about constructing an ideal society ... what's Sx about that? So/Sp makes much more sense.

If ****** is sx/so 1, like I think now, that would fit as the sx 1s are the ones known as reformers and the most free 1s, as the countertype.

[Amber]

If ****** is sx/so 1, like I think now, that would fit as the sx 1s are the ones known as reformers and the most free 1s, as the countertype.

I wish you were able to shape an argument as strrrrng (your identical) does.

[Galen]

If ****** is sx/so 1, like I think now, that would fit as the sx 1s are the ones known as reformers and the most free 1s, as the countertype.

It's pretty bad form to type somebody solely based solely from a one-word caricature description.

I haven't read Mein Kampf and have no real interest in starting, but @strrrng at least makes sense.

[chriscorey]

Prolly ILE 3w4 sx/sp

I'm disappointed Jim ... A mental case with a truetype? Unlikely dear ... I did admire your little PTSD post. Do you have PTSD? Hardly correct though.. You see? We're dead inside, but we still recognize empathy, we're just extremely vengeful. Our sickness is the unconscious need for revenge. Carry on. Three people in my case.

[Alomoes]

He's the same type of narcisist I am. Just saying, I'm a 5w6. 6w5 sounds like another narcisist I know.