In all seriousness, everyone more or less seems to put their Suggestive and/or HA as the most obvious PoLR. Coincidence?I think not
In all seriousness, everyone more or less seems to put their Suggestive and/or HA as the most obvious PoLR. Coincidence?
Yeah, this is definitely a stereotype. For one quite egregious example, Jill Stein comes across quite SLE to me based on other typed examples I have. There is actually a lot of variation within a group of people who perceive the same elements of reality the most prominently, how shocking.Originally Posted by wacey
With ILE this might be true in some cases, with SLE I would disagree. They often act like jerks and expect you to suck it up rather having themselves cater to people's feelings. An SLE might even intentionally hurt someone's feelings if they think it will make others think of them as "the boss", or if they think it will gain them social favor by doing so.
Last edited by Muddy; 12-16-2016 at 11:25 AM.
I already have enough experiences with ILEs thank-you =)
No worries btw.
I don't think they think in those terms. More like they subconsciously want other people to respond to the mobilizing and just in general be cool to them, even when they aren't being cool.
K den
True but that's more of a low functioning person's behavior.
I've found this in all beta types for the record.
Last edited by carrina; 12-16-2016 at 08:36 PM.
Sure.
But they also come off as jerks sometimes without intending it. I'm not saying they are jerks, I'm saying it's hard for them not to come off that way at times.
I think that this applies to healthy versions too
Only annoying if you care about your own feelings about them
Some general notes, you don't need to see these all as directed at you, although I'm taking your statements as a prompt . . .
You're making an interesting distinction between compassion and empathy, but if you're saying that Fi-polrs cannot act compassionately, my experience says this is utterly untrue. First, I think any type can behave compassionately. Second, I've known several SLEs who were real suckers for people whose circumstances were grim, and who were exactly the kind of people who would not tune out or turn away from someone they knew was suffering. I've seen them get taken advantage of, too, by people who should share some of that burden but let the SLE shoulder all of it, and by people they tried to help but who just couldn't get their act together, or were flat-out bad characters.
How I often see Fi-polr manifest in SLEs is a lack of certainty about how other people feel about them, about where they stand with the people they care about. Sometimes they assume they are not liked or wanted, and develop various defenses in response to that feeling. They also are vulnerable, as my previous paragraph implied, to being used.
I don't interpretas "force" per se, but more as the Se-dominant person being aware of where the levers of power actually are in a wide variety of situations. They see this better than many people do, and so they often find themselves situationally compelled to pull those levers. ("Someone's got to do it.") They actually will do this on behalf of other people whom they perceive as unable to do it for themselves.
I'm not trying to paint this type as saintly, but they are complex and aren't given much credit in socionics discourse for what is tender and selfless in them.
ILEs I feel less qualified to talk about, because I probably don't understand them as well.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
An EII girl I befriended did this thing that reminded me of se polr. She was super friendly btw. We had a little group of three friends that sits together and we work together sometimes, she tried to pass this paper to this xEE girl we know, the girl didn't respond so the EII put the paper next to her book and said "I'll just leave this here" in a meek way. Seemed like a mixture of "not my job to make her respond," and "maybe you'll be annoyed if I call you more than once"
Kind of adorable that girl. Although, she seemed off put by me occasionally, and I had to constantly try to restate things more gently or she looked shocked.
I agree.Some general notes, you don't need to see these all as directed at you, although I'm taking your statements as a prompt . . .
You're making an interesting distinction between compassion and empathy, but if you're saying that Fi-polrs cannot act compassionately, my experience says this is utterly untrue. First, I think any type can behave compassionately. Second, I've known several SLEs who were real suckers for people whose circumstances were grim, and who were exactly the kind of people who would not tune out or turn away from someone they knew was suffering. I've seen them get taken advantage of, too, by people who should share some of that burden but let the SLE shoulder all of it, and by people they tried to help but who just couldn't get their act together, or were flat-out bad characters.
How I often see Fi-polr manifest in SLEs is a lack of certainty about how other people feel about them, about where they stand with the people they care about. Sometimes they assume they are not liked or wanted, and develop various defenses in response to that feeling. They also are vulnerable, as my previous paragraph implied, to being used.
I don't interpret
I'm not trying to paint this type as saintly, but they are complex and aren't given much credit in socionics discourse for what is tender and selfless in them.
ILEs I feel less qualified to talk about, because I probably don't understand them as well.
Although I would say se isn't really force but seeing the world and being receptive to outside experience, a sort of passive perception rather than logical thought. Being more tuned to the world could create a power dynamic where someone could take advantage of another's lack of perception. I believe the force is secondary, it's just a way to involve oneself with the world, the experience of not being a separate entity from the environment. The feelings and thoughts that a person with se lead has will determine how they interact with that experience but it comes secondary.
How would you see the Fi role of LSI differing from the Fi PoLR of SLE in these terms?You're making an interesting distinction between compassion and empathy, but if you're saying that Fi-polrs cannot act compassionately, my experience says this is utterly untrue. First, I think any type can behave compassionately. Second, I've known several SLEs who were real suckers for people whose circumstances were grim, and who were exactly the kind of people who would not tune out or turn away from someone they knew was suffering. I've seen them get taken advantage of, too, by people who should share some of that burden but let the SLE shoulder all of it, and by people they tried to help but who just couldn't get their act together, or were flat-out bad characters.
How I often see Fi-polr manifest in SLEs is a lack of certainty about how other people feel about them, about where they stand with the people they care about. Sometimes they assume they are not liked or wanted, and develop various defenses in response to that feeling. They also are vulnerable, as my previous paragraph implied, to being used.
I don't interpret
I agree with most of this. Golden's view of it seems a bit "Ni-contaminated" but other than that, I agree with that too. Especially this, about the force being secondary in that it is just one way to involve yourself with the world.
clearly this question wasn't asked of me but i find talking about the difference between types interesting. I don't think it's a subtle distinction. I think that overall, these types can be very similar, just like many other types. But, when you get down to specifics, the types aren't actually that symmetrical in this way.
I wouldn't piece it all the way down to model A this way, I would think about it in terms of overall type. It's hard for me to talk about this just for the record and it might be muddy.
The role function works with the rest of the type and is a way to compensate (in some instances, overcompensate, painfully,) for the dual seeking function being so badly used and needing help with it (painfully desperately needing help with it BEGGING FOR HELP, JK, drama).
So for example the Fi in LSI would be a person more calmly connecting with others and actually finding ways to verbalize it, in hopes that the other person would switch it to the dual seeking and indulge the insecurity for needing vibrant, even sometimes too intense (beta) emotional commentary on the relations, or situations.
Because the SLE has different dual seeking and role function, I would compare those instead of the polr. I would suggest that the SLE (and SEE) will verbalize possibilities (sometimes stupidly and sometimes there are good suggestions) and not commit to limiting the experience in hopes that the interocular would switch to Ni, suggesting why one situation is better than the other. My oppologies that this is slanted toward gamma explanation of efficiency. the IEI would less likely verbalize lesser possibilities (although this can happen for sake of good conversation, for example, talking about mystical possibilities (jung)) but would more often suggestion better emotional states and become playful, joking, silly, or just verbalize a preference for what would be an experience worth having, in the sense that the IEI indicates what situation would emphasize the emotionality involved.
Now, to give you what you actually asked for and to compare polr to polr, the SLE would compensate for the lack of fi by joking and assuming that the other party wants that, thereby satisfying other's need for his/her involvement in the social experience. The difference is the need level. SLE doesn't think he needs help or necessarily try to get others to do this for him. its more of an offer of playful camaraderie. (which by the way, the IEI will either accept this offer happily, or will have been rubbed the wrong way and switch to demonstrative bitch mode, applicable to men too).
Although both the LSI and SLE like to participate in mutual camaraderie. The difference is in the approach, ability, and focus. They both have the painful ethical inability, SLE is less likely to suffer from it.
Medium to low functioning LSIs, or those void of a strong Fe force in their lives, are super likely to feel pain in the day today about this lack.
nice try there, again, but only psychopaths are without feelings.Only annoying if you care about your own feelings about them
You know it when someone treats you like your feelings aren't important and it doesn't feel good no matter what type you are. Unless you're a masochist that is.
It just doesn't seem to be as pronounced an issue. I think sometimes, though, that I forget that LSIs have some of this same weakness, because they are pretty good at putting on a pleasant, respectful face, so long as they are motivated to do so. I start to think that they're actually better at it than I am, but they aren't, as it's more shallow and breakable and it doesn't really respond to the situation but is more one-size-fits-all "acting nice." LSIs are sometimes extremely good judges of character and notice things I don't, and they don't seem as drastically generous as SLEs, they're more cautious ime.
"Contaminated."I agree with most of this. Golden's view of it seems a bit "Ni-contaminated" but other than that, I agree with that too. Especially this, about the force being secondary in that it is just one way to involve yourself with the world.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
That's absolutely true, but I've rarely felt like Fi Vulnerable types were acting in a way that hurt my feelings -- since for me feelings are much more aboutthan
. I would be more likely to view an
You're SEE, you're supposed to like most beta types, not think that they're permanently low-functioning...
ni polr
If we have more than 2 minutes of interaction, Ti Polr. They sound like cumulative avarage of the whatever social media they have been following.
As per socionics modelThat's absolutely true, but I've rarely felt like Fi Vulnerable types were acting in a way that hurt my feelings -- since for me feelings are much more about
If you read my above comments, you'll see that I do like them. One of my best friends is an SLE. The father of my son is SLE. LSIs aren't that easy though. Anyway, it should be obvious that my comment intends to say that only some are low functioning.You're SEE, you're supposed to like most beta types, not think that they're permanently low-functioning...
I'm also not sure if you're joking or being coy, or serious.
The best in the socionLSIs are sometimes extremely good judges of character and notice things I don't
Yeah actually this one is super easy. I'm fairly newly acquainted with knowing ni polr types deeply though
YES! My IEE friend cites stuff from seemingly every television series in history, he has so many anecdotes that everyone's head starts spinning. His sentences always go like this: "Exactly, just like in...!!" SEE would be more anecdotal in a sense of telling cumulative stories about what they observed.
No worries.
The dual seeking function is not really actively seeking in any concious way. But yeah, I can relate to the Fi use as put here.The role function works with the rest of the type and is a way to compensate (in some instances, overcompensate, painfully,) for the dual seeking function being so badly used and needing help with it (painfully desperately needing help with it BEGGING FOR HELP, JK, drama).
So for example the Fi in LSI would be a person more calmly connecting with others and actually finding ways to verbalize it, in hopes that the other person would switch it to the dual seeking and indulge the insecurity for needing vibrant, even sometimes too intense (beta) emotional commentary on the relations, or situations.
You find the LSIs you know try to get others to do it for them?Now, to give you what you actually asked for and to compare polr to polr, the SLE would compensate for the lack of fi by joking and assuming that the other party wants that, thereby satisfying other's need for his/her involvement in the social experience. The difference is the need level. SLE doesn't think he needs help or necessarily try to get others to do this for him. its more of an offer of playful camaraderie. (which by the way, the IEI will either accept this offer happily, or will have been rubbed the wrong way and switch to demonstrative bitch mode, applicable to men too).
Pain, like?Although both the LSI and SLE like to participate in mutual camaraderie. The difference is in the approach, ability, and focus. They both have the painful ethical inability, SLE is less likely to suffer from it.
Medium to low functioning LSIs, or those void of a strong Fe force in their lives, are super likely to feel pain in the day today about this lack.
Ok this is how I see it too. I wouldn't like to think of it as "breakable" when supported by logic too, though.
Lol, it's nice Ni!"Contaminated."
hmm.. i would probably rank them like that
easy: Se-polr, Fi-polr
medium: Ni-polr, Te-polr, Ti-polr, Fe-polr
difficult: Ne-polr, Si-polr
se-polr being the easiest to spot, si-polr being the most difficult for me.
Oh to be ontopic
IRL I easily notice Fe PoLR, Se PoLR.
Sometimes Te PoLR, Si PoLR
Ti PoLR I somehow don't pay attention to much by default. I guess because it's 1D Ti like the dual's 1D Ti.
.
I wanted to expand on explaining what I think the differences are between ILE's and SLE's Fi Polr. With ILE I think their Fi polr is primarily about their unwillingness to make sacrifices for the sole purpose of maintaining relationships. Don't, for example, expect them to make regular phone calls to check up on how you are doing. ILE is often submerged into his own mind and rarely thinks about what he could do to help out others, especially when he is on his own turf as opposed to someone else's.
SLE's Fi polr manifest more as a harsh disregard for other's feelings. The often don't understand how people could be hurt by mere words and may view such people as simply being pussies. Less healthier SLEs can also range in the behavior from being bullies to being outright psychopaths.
Do you have something to add?
I would agree with that. ILEs don't want to be "tied down" by relationships so they can often seem unloyal. This has to do with subduedas well as weak
(not understanding that you need to maintain what you have instead of constantly expanding it). If they hurt someone's feelings it's more often by accident and they will usually apologize if they become aware of it.
The SLE conversely has subdued
Last edited by Exodus; 02-25-2018 at 01:31 PM.
I might have something to add if you have anything you'd like to know that I can comment on
Yeah, they can be like that, I agree.
Even though if you directly tell them to stop because they're making a fool out of themselves, they will normally do.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Si PoLR- One of the harder ones for me to notice, often confuse it with Si ignoring, or just devalued Si. Sometimes Si PoLR I can even mistake for Si valuing because in some ways they can be overly fussy about Si stuff.
Se PoLR- Easy for me to notice. It is my PoLR so I am aware of how it works.
Ni PoLR- Along with Si PoLR, one of more difficult ones for me to notice. It could be that society seems to value weak Ni and just being productive and getting things done vs. actually thinking about how it fits into the overall time scheme and the long term.
Ne PoLR- Easier than Ni/Si but still not so easy. I don't know as many Ne PoLRs and sometimes I can wrongly assume someone to have Ne PoLR simply because they seem rather narrow minded to me.
Ti PoLR- Easier for me to notice in SEE, a bit harder in IEE. SEE also due to their Se lead, just seems to rush into things, not thinking or caring about the underlying rules or principles. IEE, it seems a bit more subtle, perhaps due to devalued Se and valued Ne. They just don't want laws to get in the way of possibilities but they don't seem as openly rebellious against them.
Te PoLR- Easy for me to notice. I know quite a few SEI and IEI and their stories of how it plays out in their lives. As a Te ignoring person myself sometimes I can get tripped up by Te too, the main difference between me and the Te PoLR is that Te PoLR has much weaker Te and is experienced more painfully.
Fi PoLR- easy for me to notice in SLE, harder in ILE. Again, I am very sensitive to the harshness that Fi PoLR in SLE can appear, but in ILE it seems more subtle, simply not being as attentive to the relational aspects- not wanting to commit, not sure how close to get but not as downright 'mean' and 'hurtful.'
Fe PoLR- one of the easiest ones for me to notice. Since I am Fe seeking, I notice those who don't seek that or seem to care about it. Which is why my quasi's can disappoint me because our values are fundamentally different. Perhaps moreso in ILI than SLI, can seem nihilistic scroogelike types that seem to disdain positive atmospheres and holidays.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Conclusion: the easiest one to notice is the one that annoys you the most.
In my case, it's half true. I easily notice Fe PoLR and tend to get annoyed by that (especially in ILIs), but I also easily notice Te PoLR and I am not particularly annoyed by that.Conclusion: the easiest one to notice is the one that annoys you the most.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Not a pattern, or a different pattern - I'm the same with Te PoLR as @chips and underwear is. I easily notice it (not that I often focus on it so not in my face like Fe and Se PoLRs) but not really annoyed by it.
Fe PoLR is easy to detect when you compare their way of treating fellow humans VS dealing with adorable petsPresenting cute pets brings out that Fi HA because: no strings attached, no obligations to open their hearts against their will.
Or you could just bring Tom Hardy (who is notably puppy-like) and see what happens. 3-picture story time.
@Chae : I think it works for all IxTx, demonstrating feelings more easily for pets than humans, because we don't feel judged on one of our weak spot, so less afraid to show affection
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