Enneagram Type 5s: The Other Performers

[Cat King Cole]

Observations from Helen Palmer's The Enneagram In Love And Work (which is one of the few enneagram sources that isn't depressing pseudoscientific quackery, and thus is highly recommended). She has some interesting insights that I haven't encountered elsewhere. WIP post.

Fives, as a type, can be prone to acting. The key aspect with Fives, though, is that these acts and personae are compartmentalized (as is true in general with Fives; they will "watch" themselves from a separate part of their mind). A Five will tailor-make an effective persona for a situation in order to say or effect what they want, while not identifying with the role or pose.

Additionally, a Five moving to Seven can adopt charming social poses in the name of appropriateness, or act on impulse without the lengthy prepare-observe-reflect process that typifies the Five, especially under stress and when they feel overwhelmed by choice.

[Cat King Cole]

I'll likely expand this thread tomorrow, since it's a little sparse right now.

[Gilly]

You are not a 5. You're probably 6w7 or 7w6, slight chance of 2w3/3w2. Definitely positive outlook and attachment in there, not withdrawn.

[Cat King Cole]

Take it to my last enneatype thread, bub, this one's about what I've been reading, not me.

[thePirate]

an e-5 ILE now?

maybe typology isnt for you

[Cat King Cole]

maybe typology isnt for you

I don't think typology is for anyone with a modicum of awareness, to be honest. It's quackery, pop-psychology, and pseudo-science. The most successful users of any typology, consciously or otherwise, realise that in most cases its only purpose is to serve as the raw materials and structures to be salvaged and used in more effective ways.

[Gilly]

This is clearly about you. I knew that before I saw the change in your Sig.

[Cat King Cole]

This is clearly about you. I knew that before I saw the change in your Sig.

It really isn't. Go check out the thread I'm relentlessly bumping, that one's definitely about me.

I mean, hell, do you want me to quote passages from Palmer's book word-for-word before you believe me? Or are you just spouting confused bullshit for the hell of it?

[thePirate]

I have a reply to your response but don't want to clog up this thread - but in summary, typology is helpful to anyone who has the prerequisite social experience and understanding to make it work for them (which many people who come on to study it don't seem to have). I am also of the opinion that you are warping the five description to make sense for you when this performer aspect of them, if it is there, wouldn't even begin to explain your persona.

[Gilly]

It really isn't. Go check out the thread I'm relentlessly bumping, that one's definitely about me.

I mean, hell, do you want me to quote passages from Palmer's book word-for-word before you believe me? Or are you just spouting confused bullshit for the hell of it?

Let's hear these quotes.

[DividedsGhost]

This is depressing...he can't even discuss this without making it somehow about his person...

[Cat King Cole]

Let's hear these quotes.

"The Seven persona appears when the [Five's] major defences of of withdrawal and isolation become ineffective. A socially acceptable persona emerges to engage and reach out to people, but it may not be enjoyable...
The fact that they are welcomed as open and friendly in Seven adds to habitual feelings of alienation."

"When [Fives] are acting out appropriate social roles or reacting to stress (point Seven), you can have difficulty discening whether or not they're available. Energetic and apparently interested Fives can in fact be hiding in a social pose or watching themselves engage you from a third-party position."

"When public presentations have to be made, Observers may inhabit an appropriate pose; the right look and a memorized speech. Fives can lead in an outgoing, even engaging, style when conditions demand it. I once interviewed an Observer who ran a shipyard. He was very macho, very direct, and could easily have passed as an Eight. He described himself as 'walking the walk'...for eighteen years on a baily basis, he'd get up from his chair in his private office, curse that he had to go out, and, by the time he'd hit the door, 'watch himself' shout orders. 'You have to look right,' he said. Fives slide into a public persona as if it were a role."

etc etc. I'm not going to back up the rest of my notes with quotes, but you can see here I'm not just making things up. This thread is about my notes on an interesting read. If it interests you too, or if you have to prove that much that I'm wrong, go buy the book. It's an insightful read, and has more to say about relationships than Socionics does.

[Creepy-pokeball]

5's have a fairly low tolerance for being put on the spot without prior reference. That is definite. This is part of why they try to amass even more knowledge. They horde it -- just in case. Whether or not they will use it remains to be seen within time, but its part of their inner-anxiety. Its part of why they are in the mind (anxiety) triad.

[Creepy-male]

As a self-typed e5 I can relate to what you wrote on there, I even think this is true in smaller circumstances-- kind of having pre-loaded responses in order to deal with people or pre-loaded personas. It's all an attempt to be defensive and withdraw psychologically. If you are self-possessed and have a sincere response or persona you have to invest more psychologically, this taxes the e5 with more stress, so as a means to deal with the mounting tensions, in low key situations they have pre-loaded responss or personas. This helps protect them with a barrier or wall, but it also isolates them psychologically.

The only thing I'm having trouble figuring out is how much of that condition is unique to e5's or if every human being goes through this-- except maybe in a different manner, I've noticed many people in real life walking around looking very frustrated and their attention is drawn away from the present and into other things -- surely not all of those people can be e5s.

[Gilly]

I don't see this as 5s being actua "perfmormers." It's more that they adopt these roles half-heartedly as a way of attempting to falsely "participate" in what they see as a confusing and senseless social ritual. They are just jumping through hoops; it's often really awkward and forced when you see it in real life. You seem to do something that I suppose I could see being rationalized in this manner, but in my experience of you and of unhealthy 5s, your behavior is different. You seem very much willing to appear bright and bubbly, rather than it being simply something you do to adapt to the world for convenience's sake and out of reluctance to "participate."

[Cat King Cole]

The only thing I'm having trouble figuring out is how much of that condition is unique to e5's or if every human being goes through this-- except maybe in a different manner, I've noticed many people in real life walking around looking very frustrated and their attention is drawn away from the present and into other things -- surely not all of those people can be e5s.

I believe the key point with 5s is that the acting is another thing they isolate themselves from--"I'm doing this stuff, but it's not happening to me", or "I'm acting, but my body is going through the motions while my mind is watching the situation unfolding".

Also, that's an excellent point. To think about abstract things that aren't happening in reality around you is just basic human cognition. Hallmarks of E5 mental activity are immersing themselves in puzzles, problems, or their imagination, and the aforementioned isolation and compartmentalization, in order to keep a clear head.

One of the few intelligent things R&H had to say on the matter is that, for example, if a Five is worried about something in their life, say a difficult relationship, or facing a challenging decision in their life, they'll focus in on these mental occupations while ignoring whatever the overwhelming issues are. The Five might learn basic Python scripting, but still without confronting a bully manager at work or whatever.

You seem very much willing to appear bright and bubbly, rather than it being simply something you do to adapt to the world for convenience's sake and out of reluctance to "participate."

The more I have to do the bubbly sociable act that I was taught (key point, I'll keep repeating it), the lonelier and more prone to solitude and resentful or resigned about having my identity overpowered I become. I've been saying that for a while now (since mid-late high school, at least), though perhaps not on the forum.

At any rate, you've fallen into the trap of circular reasoning: "My conception of Fives is thus, so people I perceive as such are the only ones who can be Fives". Palmer already offers an alternate opinion in her account of the Five at the shipyard who was convincingly macho and bossy.

[Gilly]

The thing you're getting confused is that this "acting" is merely an intersection of generalized detachment and the need to fulfill a social role. It's not that they detach in order to deal with people; they are already detached, and so they operate themselves like a puppet. It's a combination of competency and withdrawn.

I've seen fives do this and I think your social persona is very much of a different nature. But think as you will. I think you are most likely a 3, you have the same disease as me. You could still be 7w6, 2w3, or 9w1 IMO.

[Absurd]

Just add E-types you self-typed previously together and viola, you've got your E-type.

Foolproof.