ENFp/ISFp semi-duality vs ENFp/ISTp duality

[thePirate]

hi enfp friends. which do you prefer for romantic relationships. duality or semi-duality, and why?

[Mattie]

I think we started talking about this in the ever-eternal "signs of ISTp interest..." thread. For me personally, from the SiTe and SiFe I met, it's really situational. But, if all things were equal and I had them all after me, SiTe and I seem to mesh in the most pleasing way. SiFe, though, are a lot easier for me to gauge the interest of, respond to, and I feel like they care and follow up on me much more than SiTe. So, maybe, the ideal situation is to have both! SiTe as a boyfriend, and an SiFe as a close friend.

[Slacker]

SEIs are great people and I have dated them. They're warm and lovely and nice to have around.

I have to say though that it's a nice relationship to be with someone who can handle everything you can't. The thing about marriage is that you go through life as a partnership, and someone has to deal with every single thing that comes up. If one area is weak, then that will be the area that will cause problems. I'm sure everything else would be lovely but that SEI would be wanting more Ti and the IEE would be wanting more Te and, while there wouldn't be loads of problems, there would be some and it would be when something had to be done, and done well, that required one or the other.

[mikemex]

SLI is the way to go, but it's difficult to find one which isn't screwed up. They all seem to have issues.

Just as IEEs tend to be trapped on either Si or Te related problems, SLIs usually get stuck in problems requiring Ne or Fi. For example, they might grow to hate life feeling trapped in a frustrating career, when they simply need Ne input about ideas on what to do instead (here I believe would be interesting to point out that IEE are skilled not only at Ne, but also at Ni, so they are good at foreseeing the results of following an hypothetical path, which is, in the end, what SLIs are terrible at). Or they might be hurt deeply about distancing themselves from someone they love without knowing a way to reestablish contact.

Such things are rather easy for an IEE to solve, but the problem is that, as SLI grow up, they tend to become more closed and stubborn and they reject what would otherwise be quite helpful to them. In a few words, they often reach a point where they don't allow other people to help them. This might be in part due their pride (all deltas are aristocratic).

[ProcrastinateTomorrow]

I think I would have the patience for the messed up ones. I have the desire to help them, providing they meet me half way.

[xyz]

SLI is the way to go, but it's difficult to find one which isn't screwed up. They all seem to have issues.

And you don't? And he doesn't? and she don't?

...wtf?

[meatburger]

And you don't? And he doesn't? and she don't?

...wtf?

The way Mikemex said it was a little rough around the edges but i think he did point out some of the problems ISTp's can face (Ive noticed it sometimes too). Hey Mike without derailing the thread what common problems do fucked up ENFp's have? Perhaps an ISTp can answer?

As i said in the other thread SEI's girls attract me really really fast. I just feel like smiling around them. Some of the ones i know though are a little emotional and im not sure i love the idea of two emotional people together. One girl is really sweet, shes a magnificent artist but one minute shes really chirpy the next shes really down. Plus, ive noticed how SEI's devalue Fi a bit. Like i was walking with an SEI-ENTp couple and they were walking behind a fat woman and laughing at her "back breasts" for about 20 mins. They had a hilarious time but it wasn't quite what i find funny (even though i did laugh too). I think she was quite attracted to his lack of Fi in pointing it out actually.

I spent the day with a new ISTp friend. It was actually pretty awesome, everything just went well as we were both so chilled out. We even got into quite a joking and funny mood which was great. Ive felt duality with my ISTp friends enough times to be convinced. The idea that i can have someone who appreciates me and who i appreciate is too good for me to pass up

[tiny_dancer]

SLI is the way to go, but it's difficult to find one which isn't screwed up. They all seem to have issues.

I don't think this is true at all. The majority I've known have been pretty normal and mature. Yes, their weak ethics stand out to me, but probably in the same way my weak sensing and logic are obvious to them. I don't define that as "screwed up." Any type can have issues. I really don't see SLIs having more or less than the general populace.


..oh, and I guess in response to the title of this thread.. I get along great with SEIs, but SLIs are still the best fit. It's possible that I'll meet an SEI who's very compatible with my lifestyle - who knows.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

SLI is the way to go, but it's difficult to find one which isn't screwed up. They all seem to have issues.

Just as IEEs tend to be trapped on either Si or Te related problems, SLIs usually get stuck in problems requiring Ne or Fi. For example, they might grow to hate life feeling trapped in a frustrating career, when they simply need Ne input about ideas on what to do instead (here I believe would be interesting to point out that IEE are skilled not only at Ne, but also at Ni, so they are good at foreseeing the results of following an hypothetical path, which is, in the end, what SLIs are terrible at). Or they might be hurt deeply about distancing themselves from someone they love without knowing a way to reestablish contact.

Such things are rather easy for an IEE to solve, but the problem is that, as SLI grow up, they tend to become more closed and stubborn and they reject what would otherwise be quite helpful to them. In a few words, they often reach a point where they don't allow other people to help them. This might be in part due their pride (all deltas are aristocratic).

I think your general point about SLI's can be true.

For my part, I've tried to keep my mind open to things so perhaps at the same time not get dragged down to much by what I can see as 'no way out' or general hard luck things going what can maybe seem the usual way. In regards to aristocratic pride, I think a little pride is good (stops people taking any sort of nonesense, an extreme example would be accepting being a slave rather than having rights) but excessive pride is a hindrance.

I think a lot of SLI's can cut themselves off from listening due to too much pride.

I suppose it's a way to make some of my stubborness I can have at times work for me, not to let things affect me too much!

Of course everyone get's dragged down in their life, by whatever it is.

However, when i'm around IEE's, I often find that the things you describe don't seem to apply when I'm interacting with them. Maybe that's just me, or maybe it still does and I don't totally realise it.

In regards to meatburgers question of IEE's being messed up, I dunno, i'd need to think about it. Maybe it's IEE's who focus too much on being well liked, which can lead to them shutting themselves off to 'SiTe' input, making mistakes in terms of looking after themselves. Focusing on peripheral things which can lead them to sleeping around a lot or moving too quickly to new people, new interests, new jobs, new lifes that it seems like they're a bit too scattered and forgotten some sort of inner peace (at the risk of sounding deep, lol).

Hmm.. I don't know if i'm making enough sense here, sorry, just some thoughts on what i've seen and what can happen.

I do think that SLI's get a harder time of things than many types, which can perhaps result from their independence and stubborness.

Mikemex, if you're ENFp, I think it's possible you focus too much on trying to be 'tough' and/or logical at times.

I think a lot of IEE's are good at projecting an image which they think blends into their environment, but at the same time, inside they can be 'tortured souls' for want of an expression.

I've read it that duality works best when people are younger, when they've had less junk in life to mess them up. I try to be immune to it, but I notice so many other people (of any type) get caught up in various things.

[Creepy-male]

Cyclops.

I'm in your quadra, stealing your duals. It's ok to give up hope.

[mikemex]

Mikemex, if you're ENFp, I think it's possible you focus too much on trying to be 'tough' and/or logical at times.

Amazingly accurate. I'd like to hear more about this.

[jewels]

I'm actually dating an ISFp now. There is often a huge initial pull towards ISFps for me. I found myself being super giddy around this guy and I think we were both cool w/ the comfortable silence also.

I think the types go fairly well, except for occasional very silly fights about interpreting shades of meaning differently.

This particular ISFp...well there are some non-type related issues, so it's on thin ice. But if it wasn't for that I could see it working.

The Si is really nice though. I remember at one point, this ISFp threw a blanket at me, put on the Tv, and put out some snacks and tea, and went off to do something, and I actually was so giddy I was trying to hide it, because that seemed like a weird thing to get giddy over. I'd say most ISFps, in general, are really tuned in emotionally too.

All in all, I think ISTp would be better because I like the idea that when I freak out, they wouldn't take it personally. I am inclined to freak out every now and again, and have to use most of my energy to control myself. I also really like the Te. It's sort of calming to think thank god someone is thinking about that.

As far as ENFp weaknesses, I'd like to hear more. I know that I can tend to jump to conclusions...but that could just be me. Also, I think us ENFps can pick up "vibes" from people or situations, without really fully knowing what's going on. I know I can jump to a conclusion from those vibes, which can make me look paranoid. For instance, I went to an event once and a couple of people I knew barely talked to me and they seemed to be blowing me off...I mentioned that to my ENTp ex, who said I was clearly paranoid (which pissed me off for the rest of the night). It was true, because they could have been having a fight between themselves or something, but I immediately assumed it was something bad about our Fi relationship.

The ISTP "weaknesses" that mikemex described don't sound like a big deal.

[Park]

And you don't? And he doesn't? and she don't?

...wtf?

I don't think this is true at all. The majority I've known have been pretty normal and mature. Yes, their weak ethics stand out to me, but probably in the same way my weak sensing and logic are obvious to them. I don't define that as "screwed up." Any type can have issues. I really don't see SLIs having more or less than the general populace.

Naturally.

[Mattie]

Mikemex, if you're ENFp, I think it's possible you focus too much on trying to be 'tough' and/or logical at times.

I'd have to agree with this, not only from the post of his that I've read, but also observing my own behavior. There are many times I edit my words to appear more "logical" or well thought out than I actually am, especially when I'm in a situation prone to debate or easily being questioned. I think it relates to a comment someone commented on NeFi having this need to have this 'image of perfection' that fluctuates from social setting to social setting.

[Creepy-male]

@sky: And also the way the PoLR works.

"Demonstratively showing how bloody damn good you are at the thing." <- I guess to avoid a painful hit.

The other option is to just completely neglect it: there's an IEE at school who'll change the topic about once a second.

And also puts lots of effort into his studies... sucker.

[meatburger]

I'd have to agree with this, not only from the post of his that I've read, but also observing my own behavior. There are many times I edit my words to appear more "logical" or well thought out than I actually am, especially when I'm in a situation prone to debate or easily being questioned. I think it relates to a comment someone commented on NeFi having this need to have this 'image of perfection' that fluctuates from social setting to social setting.

Yep. Most of us do this. If you look at the bottom of most of my posts it says "edited" lol. Its because i can often preempt what people will say in response so i have to keep trying to edit it to be balanced. Plus i will often do it quick, then think of something i forgot to add, then add that in. Half my posts are edited after an hour so most people miss some of what i say haha. Its also to do with us not being confident about whether we are imparting the information correctly and succinctly. When i write an essay i do typically read it like 5 times before i hand it in.

Andellise is a major culprit of this. If you look at her posts you can tell she labours over her points a bucket load and tries to make them as structured as she can. With Mike, what strikes me the most is his apparent lack of Fi. He doesn't seem to mind saying something like "they are all stuffed up". I may think it but its rare (i think) i would write it. I actually enjoy his insights a lot though they are often quite penetrating. I actually do think he is more intelligent than your average ENFp. It may also be the difference between an Fi (me) and an Ne (him)?. I do try to appear tough as well, which i think is to do with my Se role.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Personally, and this is just my personal view, I prefer the un-edited posts. No need to be too logical and precise (although I can perhaps see the need for it when there can potentially be a ween of people looking to trip up others posts, for whatever reason).

But on the general thing, as I see it; there's enough logic in my head for duality, same as i've heard more than one ENFp saying they have enough 'F' on their own for two people.

Stick to what we're good at or some shit.

[Wrong Way Ticket]

Isn't that narcissistic though? I catch myself doing it too and it's not the way to be. I think IEE's are convinced they can do anything (hell, I can!) as long as we put our mind to it! But I think that is true for anyone, we can all do anything we put our mind to. IEEs biggest problem is sticking to it. Like the topic at hand. ENFP/ISP vs ENFP/ISTP -- haha.

IEEs are, in my opinion of course, definitely tortured souls. But we're not miserable about it. We're too focused on others to be miserable about our own tortured souls, why do you think our dual is SLI, possibly the most tortured soul of the archetypes.

To briefly focus on the original topic, before it was raped by IEEs. SLI is the way to go. A tough nut to crack. But if you find the right one some how they encourage your perseverance. Which is what I think we need.

And now to 180 back to the current discussion! I too find myself trying to gloss over / exaggerate / compensate for my perceived weaknesses. Lesser these days though, as I've fought nail & tooth to, maybe not overcome, but to manage and accept these weakness as things I need to pay attention to so they don't overwhelm me but not as weaknesses that reflect who I am. Everyone has weaknesses. Perseverance is really the only remedy.

Now where was I? Oh yeah. It's probably all rubbish and um, be kind to one another.

[Mattie]

Isn't that narcissistic though? I catch myself doing it too and it's not the way to be. I think IEE's are convinced they can do anything (hell, I can!) as long as we put our mind to it! But I think that is true for anyone, we can all do anything we put our mind to. IEEs biggest problem is sticking to it. Like the topic at hand. ENFP/ISP vs ENFP/ISTP -- haha.

Maybe it is narcissistic... I never thought of it that way. And I feel this way, that I can do anything if I just try my hardest... If I believe it, it will happen. And this often leads to disappointment, but I can never shake this type of thinking. Frustrates my NeTi friend to no end.

IEEs are, in my opinion of course, definitely tortured souls. But we're not miserable about it. We're too focused on others to be miserable about our own tortured souls, why do you think our dual is SLI, possibly the most tortured soul of the archetypes.

I think this is true as well. I feel like if I express negative emotions, or allow others to know I'm hurting, everything will just fall apart. So whenever I do, my friends get confused and have no idea how to handle me. Almost as if I "not allowed" to be upset or sad. Are SiTe really that tortured? Is tortured the right word?

[Wrong Way Ticket]

I think this is true as well. I feel like if I express negative emotions, or allow others to know I'm hurting, everything will just fall apart. So whenever I do, my friends get confused and have no idea how to handle me. Almost as if I "not allowed" to be upset or sad. Are SiTe really that tortured? Is tortured the right word?

I hardly know how to properly express my negative feelings with a lot of people. Well, perhaps that's not true. I know how I just can't bring myself to do it. Instead of "I feel like everything is coming apart at the seams like a really big fat man trying to sit down in jeans that are 6 sizes too small" turns into "I'm feeling kinda flat today."

But, the next day I've bounced back again and am happy that I didn't burden anyone with what probably was just me feeling flat. Just me feeling flat is me thinking negative instead of positive.

As for SLIs being tortured souls. The ones I have had in my life certainly were in some way. Totally anecdotal of course. Perhaps SLIs are more likely to see the negative before they see the positive?

[Kritik]

Dated ISFP, can't say anything negative. Looking for a dual though, superego cannot compare.

[jewels]

as for the not expressing negative emotions thing...I relate as I also used to never do that. However, as I got older I got annoyed that I was helping everyone else w/ their problems and they didn't have a clue that I even HAD any. This still happens, so now-a-days I make a conscious effort to let my closer friends in on at least some of the things. Maybe I don't share it all w/ everyone, but people do feel closer to you when you're honest about what's bothering you.

In the past I almost put up that happy wall to keep people at a distance I think, but it's really nice to confide in someone and vice versa.

However, I think most ENFps can come across as problem-less for some reason. I still have some people in my life who get jealous, etc. because it looks like I have fewer problems since I'm usually in a good mood and seem put together...but it's really that I have just as many problems as them, I just act more upbeat usually when I'm around people. Even when I'm suffering and crying all day and go to some event w/ bags under my eyes people will be like "sheesh, whatever she gets whatever she wants." behind my back or "oh she said she's in a bad mood? why? what does she have to worry about?"

I also know two other ENFps who bitch pretty often about their problems w/ me and other friends...so closer friend I think do hear a lot of negativity from ENFps.

[meatburger]

I hardly know how to properly express my negative feelings with a lot of people. Well, perhaps that's not true. I know how I just can't bring myself to do it. Instead of "I feel like everything is coming apart at the seams like a really big fat man trying to sit down in jeans that are 6 sizes too small" turns into "I'm feeling kinda flat today."

But, the next day I've bounced back again and am happy that I didn't burden anyone with what probably was just me feeling flat. Just me feeling flat is me thinking negative instead of positive.

As for SLIs being tortured souls. The ones I have had in my life certainly were in some way. Totally anecdotal of course. Perhaps SLIs are more likely to see the negative before they see the positive?

Neon Monk!!!!??

+1 dude i totally agree with what you said. According to the Reinin dichotomies, the ISTp is a positivist and the ENFp a negativist. I think the ENFp can look to the future which makes every day new, but the ENFp can easily stress about the every day stuff, whereas ISTp's know it will be fine.

[Wrong Way Ticket]

Neon Monk!!!!??

+1 dude i totally agree with what you said. According to the Reinin dichotomies, the ISTp is a positivist and the ENFp a negativist. I think the ENFp can look to the future which makes every day new, but the ENFp can easily stress about the every day stuff, whereas ISTp's know it will be fine.

Yeah, I'm back. =D

That does sound about right. I think the ENFp's head is generally stuck in the future too often. Like playing a chess game 8 moves ahead... but not paying attention to the move you're making until you've made it. If that makes any sense. The ISTp is always on top of the day at hand.

[meatburger]

Yeah, I'm back. =D

Sweet. Hope you are enjoying Melbourne. I moved from Adelaide to Darwin. Its not too bad so far

[mikemex]

Have you ever seen an IEE do periodic visits to the refrigerator while at home, even if they are not hungry? This is specially evident in IEEs who live in an environment lacking in Si.

This happens because his body is sending all kinds of signals (generally, "I'm tired"; most IEEs overextend themselves) but the IEE, having an extremely weak Si, is unable to tell exactly what is wrong. The signals thus pile up and eventually give the IEE a bad general feeling (becoming exhaust, for example) and this is when they start to think about negative things (such as "life sucks", "there is no way out of this problem/issue").

Something similar happens to SLIs, altough it is harder for me to describe not being one myself. However, I believe that there are many unacknowledged basic necessities:

* Creativity.
* Meaning.
* Compassion.
* Companionship.

Obviously, not every SLI possess the same development potential. Many of such areas are only visible in the more developed individuals. For example, Van Gogh career as a painter contrasts sharply with a period in his life when he wanted to be a preacher. While many believe he suffered from mental illness, which led him to become severely depressed and eventually commit suicide, I do believe that it was just an indicator of a somewhat perpetual existential crisis typical of talented individuals.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Mattie]

"It's okay to eat fish cause they don't have any feelings."
An IEE.

Sounds like the opposite of what I'd say

[Slacker]

LOL. It does sound like something I'd say.

[implied]

"It's okay to eat fish cause they don't have any feelings."
An IEE.

are you quoting kurt cobain/the nirvana song? hah.

[Wrong Way Ticket]

Have you ever seen an IEE do periodic visits to the refrigerator while at home, even if they are not hungry? This is specially evident in IEEs who live in an environment lacking in Si.

This happens because his body is sending all kinds of signals (generally, "I'm tired"; most IEEs overextend themselves) but the IEE, having an extremely weak Si, is unable to tell exactly what is wrong. The signals thus pile up and eventually give the IEE a bad general feeling (becoming exhaust, for example) and this is when they start to think about negative things (such as "life sucks", "there is no way out of this problem/issue").

That's rather interesting, I'd never thought about it like that before. I do that all the time. Really quite annoying.

How does this kind of phenomenon affect SLIs? Any SLIs like to weigh in?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[phoenity]

SLI is the way to go, but it's difficult to find one which isn't screwed up. They all seem to have issues.

The ENFp I met is just as messed up as I am. We both have emotional issues stemming from our childhood.

We fit together perfectly.

[phoenity]

Something similar happens to SLIs, altough it is harder for me to describe not being one myself. However, I believe that there are many unacknowledged basic necessities:

* Creativity.
* Meaning.
* Compassion.
* Companionship.

This is true for me. I experience these unconscious desires to express creativity in some way, to find meaning in my life and personal relationships. I spend a lot of time alone, yet at my core I long for close relationships. I'm currently exploring a more spiritual path in life attempting to open myself up, after realizing that most of my issues are related to being so closed off, from myself and from others, all my life. My ENFp friend has been a catalyst for these changes in me.

As for her, I've noticed she experiences physical feelings that affect her moods, emotional well-being, but she doesn't know how to address them, so she ignores them.