EII women! Help I'm my EII angel's scumbag ILE husband of 12 years.

[withoutd0ubt]

This is my first post in this entire community. It wasn't until the last 18 months I became interested in personality typing because I was interested in figuring out how to be more satisfied along with taking an actual MBTI test, couple of them actually, at my workplace (I'm an engineer if it matters. Well I guess it ought to because as an ILE around no one close to my type, it became more and more of a bore)

K, back to the story: due to boredom, and my natural desire to fix inefficient processes with unconventional thinking, I became the president of a workplace group comprised of young people - ILE sidetrack moment hang on! - I'm 31, yes we were married young due to entirely unromantic reasons so she could escape her awful parents and become eligible for university grants, etc. we were together in high school mainly because she was drop dead gorgeous and sweet and I pursued her until I made her smile and knew then she "calms" me down which I loved...along with her 5'10" perfectly made human specimen self that didn't hurt either I'm sure but - sidetrack over: there were now people that were from all over the local government offices in which I work. They were looking to me and my ideas were golden so I was in ILE heaven. I'm not a natural leader because I have to actually want to fix something not just have power if that makes sense.

Here's where it begins. Adultery. The clerk was my dual type and we were having to coordinate on all kinds of stuff and it was like gravity that neither of us could understand - not sexually because she doesn't compare to wife physically but my dual type exude sexuality when they open up to us ILE's.

No less than three times my big wedding ring was noticed and I praised wife and noted two kids ages 5/7 girls. So neither is offering dates or whatever but the meetings between President/Secretary were speeding up because we were wrapping up my big idea. Two strikes... Duals "forced" to interact at an increasingly fast rate.

Work flirting via emails commences. Immediate gold conversationally. I begin rationalizations like "do I deserve to be happy? After all, we didn't love each other when we got married. I only have one life!

Take her out for a work lunch. Another. Now we've exchanged phone numbers. Now texting begins. Now we're each other's drug. Now we say nothing else matters. Now I go to her apartment. Now I'm pouring it on thick about leaving wife. Now I'm spending a lot of time over there. Now we're "together" - only three times and it wasn't good. Now I'm like, what the hell have I been doing and thinking? I have this angel at home who is still nice to me, loving me, not filing divorce paperwork against me, wanting me. Wake up you moron! Cut her off.

So to my ILE brain, hell yes we're back together. I want you, you want me, we're married... Back to normal.

Not to easy and I don't understand it. EII heart hurt boundary up big time. My ILE self can't comprehend what "I need time and you need to respect that" means. So, insert overt flirting and lots of great house husbanding stuff. Fixed, right babe? Makes it worse, she says. Says to just give her what she needs and I just need to respect that. Says we will be ok but doesn't know when.

What does a destroyed EII heart need? What does she mean? What do I do? Help if you're willing, please.

[Minde]

Breaking my trust is one of the worst things you could do to me. And marital/relational unfaithfulness is one of my big fears in life.

If someone did that to me... Gosh, with kids in the picture it's even worse. I'd be wondering what I did wrong followed by what can I do to give my kids as close to what they deserve (which is a loving home).

If you look from a logical perspective, what broke things? Unfaithfulness. What is the opposite of that? You'll need a lot of that and consistently over a long period of time. For me, repairing the relationship would be all about rebuilding trust, which when broken can take a LOT of time and work.

No quick fixes here, sorry.

[Beautiful sky]

When an EII says she needs time and that you NEED to respect that it mean DON'T CALL DON'T TEXT DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL AND WHAT YOU'VE DONE. THAT mean go do your shit and leave me alone so I can find my inner peace and calm again by doing activities that don't require thinking about you and what you've done. Such as having calming tea with people who love me and don't remind me of you. Once calm has been reestablished she can consult with people who have a better picture of her feelings and figure out if you're forgiveable matter or she's going to abandon the relationship.You need to understand by cheating on her you have placed the ball which was once shared between you into her court and any further decision in the field of ethics of relationships is to be decided by her, afterall she establishes how relationships are conducted..
If you love her play it by her rules and softly. Offer comfortable things don't make her environment harsh and unbearable. If she likes something yummy take that so she can have it. Just appologiea won't help. Compliment her looks. Don't be too over bearing. Be patient and soft in your approachl

 

Some people here have to at least be able to give advice about relationship matters if they are going to pretend to be EII

[Adam Strange]

Man, you screwed up. Cheating is never OK. It should be #1 on your list of things you do not do, like shooting heroin or playing Russian Roulette. If you wanted the other woman, you should have closed down the relationship you had with your wife first. If you weren't certain that the new woman would work out, you shouldn't have strayed at all.

As to your future, I think Maritsa's advice is best. She's an EII herself, so she knows how they think. I think the ball's in your wife's court now, and your best course of action will be to let her figure out what she wants to do.

In my small experience, people (yourself included) in the Alpha and Beta quadrants use Fe, and therefore will adjust their feelings to that of the group (Is cheating OK? This woman is telling me that it is, so maybe it is). But people in the Gamma and Delta quadras (your wife and Maritsa) use Fi, which means they decide how they feel about things, and are not influenced much by others. Knowing how they feel about something is what they do best, and once they decide, they don't usually change their minds. I wish you luck here on the outcome.

It's a shame you didn't get this out of your system before you got married.

Shakespeare wrote two kinds of plays, comedies and tragedies. And the tragedies were never, like, a meteor came down and wiped out half the town. They were always, this guy has a character flaw and he used it to screw up his life. At this point in your life, you should be realizing a few things. One, cheating is never OK. Two, most of the ways your life is screwed up, now and in the future, are due to character flaws. Not all. Some people were born with the short straw. But you can have a tremendous influence in how things turn out. And three, you might not be the hero of the play. You might be a walk-on extra that doesn't make it to the second act. If so, you should make your performance the best that you can do.

[Beautiful sky]

For Ij temperment the action of cheating has shaken her balance and stability ( "am i really loved" "how do i know" "will this happen again""what will come of me and my kids if it should happen agaon") so a new one needs to be established and thought out so that things can be managed and become stsble again. This includes her having to figure out if she'll be okay on her own ir if stability with you will be okay. Remember the Ij seek linear approach that make things predictable and somewhat rigid not "wait and see about the movement of events" which is Ip temperament. Ij is thing and plan first before act. She'll run to a positive environment, to love and stability which are her friends vecause the sense of relational ethics are not broken or shaken there. Those values are still upheld and strong. The Ne negative aspects will want to work out all possible things that could go wrong in the future before she can decide.

[Amber]

In my small experience, people (yourself included) in the Alpha and Beta quadrants use Fe, and therefore will adjust their feelings to that of the group (Is cheating OK? This woman is telling me that it is, so maybe it is). But people in the Gamma and Delta quadras (your wife and Maritsa) use Fi, which means they decide how they feel about things, and are not influenced much by others. Knowing how they feel about something is what they do best, and once they decide, they don't usually change their minds. I wish you luck here on the outcome.

Nope. Stop reading people through Expectations of Quadra/bunch Behavior. (they're Alpha, so they are gonna do x and y).

Fe focuses on moving and shaking the other's emotions on the spot > one's own sentiments or other kinda internal experience or the relationship taken as a static bond. Their actions often contradict a kind of rel. they claim they have with someone. (kinda like "hey, we're friends, but what if I gossip about him and insult him a bit outta boredom, nothing wrong with that"; "yeah, we're kinda enemies and he's a scumbag, but it's fine to go to dinner with him and chat around, if it's fun").

Everyone has their own Fi personal values .... which Fi ego types can usually read very well and thus assess what each person is made of and how reliable they are - as a distinct individual. Whether one cheats on spouse, forgets about ill parents, tortures cats, steals money, betrays friend for glory etc. has nothing to do with Quadra.
You have a very prominent Social focus in your view of ppl btw. (you admitted you asked your friends if it's ok to fuck a much younger woman and you care about what others would think and say; you adjusted your attraction to that ESI woman to how a bunch of others would look on stuff).

[Aster]

Socionics aside,

It sounds like you liked your wife more for her looks, but you liked the other girl more for her personality... What happens when your wife gets old? Is her sweetness still going to attract you then when her beauty is fading? It sounds like it has not been as strong from the start because of the reasons for the marriage. It almost sounded like a business exchange instead of a relationship. Although, I think things can look loose from the outside to observers, but a bond can be stronger than anyone realizes because of how loyal someone feels to another. There are things that can't always be seen between people that only they can know.

I think what happens a lot of times is that people get together and fall in love, or are attracted to each other. The reasons for the bond that is made is a very important part of how long a relationship will last. I think to love someone for things that can change, like looks or position, are probably going to make for a less successful relationship than to love someone for things that are more stable over time, like their personality. It's like choosing to play tennis instead of being a ballet dancer....

But I do think looks can be important to some, and probably at least a little bit to most people, but I think being in a relationship where one values a persons bond with another by things, such as internal characteristics, that they admire above all, are going to form a much more concrete relationship that is harder to break from outside elements.

Kids, I think, can put a lot of pressure on relationships, more than a lot of people realize. But they can also hold a relationship together, which is why I think some people even have kids in the first place, such as a means of solidifying a relationship, to create a relationship, to restore a relationship...etc. Of course not always, but it does add another weightier ball to the old ball in chain. But with the time consumption and additional attention that is given to the children that was once reserved by ones significant other, there seems to be less time given to the importance of a relationship, a lot of times. The relationship could then become more neglected. Add a very demanding job to the equation, and it could result in problems... I think sometimes what makes a relationship more solidified can therefore make it more susceptible to cracking.

It's like a relationship is built brick by brick. A lot of time could be spent building it. But how stable was the ground in which it was built? A bricklayer and the hod carrier built it together, through cool days, and sometimes days where the working conditions were hot, in the times that were harder, but they still kept going, the harder the times, the more they feel for each other in the heat, the more they have to share, the more they know each other...but how was the quality of work put into it by both parties, and will it last through tough times when outside elements try to tear it down?...It just depends on the quality and how well it was built...How strong or elastic it is. Your relationship sounds like it's currently at a tipping point dependent on it's worth and strength.

If you want to keep your relationship and try to make it work, I'd suggest getting a new e-mail address or block the other from your existing one, block the other woman's number from your phone, possibly block her from your life in all ways possible. If it was me, I'd stay close so your wife knows you aren't running off or going behind her back, doing things you shouldn't be doing, to just show you have nothing to hide and aren't sneaking around. To put your hands out in front of you, so to say. It's going to take time, probably a lot of it, and trust is going to have to be built again. You need to give her space still, but still be there for her and support her when she wants you to be. It sounds like she needs to think things through without you smothering her in the process. Think of yourself as being on probation and any mistake will send you to jail. You're basically walking on eggshells while her internal council deliberates and decides to give you your sentence.

But, as I'm sure you know, you've put a hole in the wall of your relationship, and the remnants are going to always be there, haunting you forever. It's not something you can just erase.

Sometimes when people aren't confident in something, or they want to make a point, they start doing something more frequently than what they usually do, possibly for external validation or because they are insecure. It can seems insincere, like they are trying too hard, or it makes them seem even more transparent in their intentions and insecurities... so maybe that's why your wife felt it was too much, and that it was making things worse...like you were laying it on too thick to compensate for your mistakes..

What you've done is you haven't left your wife and gone with this other woman, so it is a sign that you still love your wife and that she is more important to you than the other woman. Not only that, but you have kids, which is probably making her, and possibly you, want to work it out even more.

You are going to have to win yourself into her good graces, but some questions I think it would be good to ask yourself:

1. Do you still work with the woman you had an affair with? If so, do you believe it would be beneficial for your relationship to move or get a different job?

2. Do you see yourself being capable of being faithful to your wife in the future? Are you prepared to stay with her and only her?

3. Would you really have been happy with the other woman in a few years after the newness had warn off? Where would you have been then? How would this have effected your relationship with your children?

4. What happened to bring you to cheat? Was it not enough time with your spouse, brought on by work and kids? Something else? How can it be fixed so it won't happen again?

5. What kind of women cheats with a man, knowing he is married with two kids? What does that say about such a women? Is that the kind of women that you would really want to have a relationship with?

[Beautiful sky]

It seems to me that he loves his wife even though he foud her attractive when they first met.

[Kim]

Did you use protection? If not, did you get tested for STDs? Even if you used protection, you might have contracted HPV (or Herpes or other STDs that are contracted through skin contact and are not prevented by condom use), which is not likely to be an issue for you, but might be for your wife, so make sure she gets a regular pap if she doesn't already.

All of this sounds very sad to me. I don't think you are truly owning up to what you have done, otherwise you would not use the circumstances of your marriage or socionics to rationalize your cheating. You messed up and you need to own it. This has nothing to do with anything but your lack of commitment to your wife. It sounds like, given the fact that you are not in love with your wife, it is bound to happen again (after all, you "only have one life," no?). Why do you want to fix this? Because your marriage is comfortable? Because it's nice to be loved?

I think delta NFs have in common that they suffer in silence and retreat after being hurt. Leave her alone. Attempts to be a better husband than ever might appear gimmicky and less than genuine to her (driven by bad conscience more than anything else). This will take time and you will have to just wait it out.

To be honest, if I were your wife's friend, I would encourage her to separate. She deserves better than someone who marries her for her looks and sweetness alone, doesn't love her, and cheats on her (and will likely cheat again).

[Kim]

5. What kind of women cheats with a man, knowing he is married with two kids? What does that say about such a women? Is that the kind of women that you would really want to have a relationship with?

I would not give him this cop-out. He is the cheater, not the woman. She did not cheat on his wife. No need to make her out to be a bad person for any purpose.

[Beautiful sky]

Man, you screwed up. Cheating is never OK. It should be #1 on your list of things you do not do, like shooting heroin or playing Russian Roulette. If you wanted the other woman, you should have closed down the relationship you had with your wife first. If you weren't certain that the new woman would work out, you shouldn't have strayed at all.

As to your future, I think Maritsa's advice is best. She's an EII herself, so she knows how they think. I think the ball's in your wife's court now, and your best course of action will be to let her figure out what she wants to do.

In my small experience, people (yourself included) in the Alpha and Beta quadrants use Fe, and therefore will adjust their feelings to that of the group (Is cheating OK? This woman is telling me that it is, so maybe it is). But people in the Gamma and Delta quadras (your wife and Maritsa) use Fi, which means they decide how they feel about things, and are not influenced much by others. Knowing how they feel about something is what they do best, and once they decide, they don't usually change their minds. I wish you luck here on the outcome.

It's a shame you didn't get this out of your system before you got married.

Shakespeare wrote two kinds of plays, comedies and tragedies. And the tragedies were never, like, a meteor came down and wiped out half the town. They were always, this guy has a character flaw and he used it to screw up his life. At this point in your life, you should be realizing a few things. One, cheating is never OK. Two, most of the ways your life is screwed up, now and in the future, are due to character flaws. Not all. Some people were born with the short straw. But you can have a tremendous influence in how things turn out. And three, you might not be the hero of the play. You might be a walk-on extra that doesn't make it to the second act. If so, you should make your performance the best that you can do.

I think cheating is common and forgiveable even though it's not right. I often find that a bond between two people who meet later in life is stronger like my gamma dual friend who have been married for 16 years and haven't had kids also both have been married a few times before. It's not uncommon for people to find something new exciting or thrilling as I've thus discovered from observing yet another couple cheat. So idk

[xerx]

You can let her cheat on you with someone, then it all breaks even. Seriously though, from everything you said RE not being in love, you two should probably seek a divorce.

[Hays]

What I need is true love....not left overs...not second best or seconds...but to be the one and only.
I need you to put up with me, to make me smile, to make exciting plans together and work on those as a unit.
It helps if you playfully and vibrantly try to get me to listen to your adoration and spoil me with nice dinners out, a good coffee etc...I can usually tell what's real and what's not or at least I get your intentions so don't try to fool me but I can take whatever exaggerations you might playfully/excitedly make for even when I'm upset these work. I'm after love and like to be spoilt.
However there is a stage past being just upset and when I'm in this stage I don't want you around - just leave, give me time, I'm angry right now and when like this I don't desire touch or any smothering behaviour, I could even pick up a pillow or cushion and use it on you at this stage if you don't depart. I need time alone so I may lock the bedroom door or leave the house.
Can I forgive for infidelity? When younger I would have said no but now I'm not so sure for if I were ever to make a mistake in this area I would likely desire forgiveness...so as I've aged I now will say that I might try...but damage isn't easy to overcome. I could begin letting go of the other half and the relationship as a form of protection. I would need to know that interactions with the other party were no longer occurring in any form and this could mean that in a situation like the above that a new job is on the horizon.
If you desire the other person I would rather let go...for if you don't want me - then I don't want you (Issues of abandonment and not being wanted stemming from childhood).
I'm unlikely to put up a fight in any way though children and financial commitments would complicate things.
A relationship can be rebuilt but is never the same, taking great commitment and much time.

Note this is written by someone who may not be an EII so take what you will from the ramblings :-)

[Emmym]

Speaking ONLY for myself, I would be emotionally done with you. An EII knows how to take control of a relationship. They secretly hold the power, and are accustomed to that role and responsibility. Though some of them give the appearance of being weak and submissive, they are one of the most socially dominant types.

I'm going to be somewhat blunt. If you're an ILE, there's little chance that you will be able to show the type of sincerity an EII needs to see to begin to forgive. Most ILEs take the "lovable" route over the sincere one, and if the EII has seen it before, she'll know it's empty and meaningless, a symptom of your need to always feel "okay" about things, and like you have her support and love again. You won't. If she's very religious, she might be able to convince herself to stay, but she'll never forget what you did, and never again associate faithfulness with you. Even if you stay together, prepare for lifelong disappointment on her end, maybe with the occasional nostalgia for what was.

I can't speak for Fi-EIIs, who seem to be a lot more understanding and forgiving than I am, but that's my take.

[Amber]

Not to easy and I don't understand it. EII heart hurt boundary up big time. My ILE self can't comprehend what "I need time and you need to respect that" means. So, insert overt flirting and lots of great house husbanding stuff. Fixed, right babe? Makes it worse, she says. Says to just give her what she needs and I just need to respect that. Says we will be ok but doesn't know when.

What does a destroyed EII heart need? What does she mean? What do I do? Help if you're willing, please.

After going through the entire mess of words:


> from the way he speaks about his wife OP kinda has enough affection for the EII to want to make things work. He didn't marry her for looks only. Besides there are hardly any other problems approached here apart from his cheating, so it's safe to assume their relationship was relatively good up to this critical point.

> OP cheated more outta boredom and irresponsibility rather than bitterness and saturation with wife or fatal attraction to other woman >> who is prolly not even his dual, but it's better to claim it was duality that made him do it, right.

> OP doesn't want to replace existing rel. with another. Cheating left him with a relatively sour taste. Now sure cheating is not ok ... but I don't think it only happens to ILE or alphas or whatever. Actually "straying" one way or another ..whether through real acts, thought, gaze, ambiguous sympathies etc is not hellishly rare in such a ltr like marriage (which can feel a bit stifling at one point)

> The key here seems rather how the OP can fix stuff and if mistake can be corrected rather than who's to blame and in what degree. Obviously he fucked it up and he knows it. He doesn't necessarily sound like he's ready to cheat again anytime. He's kinda genuinely curious about getting outta the mess he's in.

> From what he says about EII wife it's not a stretch to assume she wants to keep the rel. , but is hurt and needs time to see if trust can be restored. If she married him, it's safe to think there was a healthy-enough level of trust overall. The OP should patiently give her time and consistently prove feelings via actions without emotional dramatics, creepy theatrical flattery, and clumsy forced attempts at "being a good husband". Those will only make her more skeptical. Be very attentive to her. Don't approach sensitive topic if she avoids it. Shower kids with all the love possible - she will see how attached he is to his family.

> Not sure what the concrete situation between them right now is...OP is vague. Did they separate? Does she think of divorce? Do they still sleep together, eat together, go out together etc ...or there's this huge barrier-wall built between them? Did she take her things and move to her parents' place? any attempt to break the rel.. ? It's important.

> OP should be fully aware of the seriousness of what he did. Caused a nice breach in his marriage. Good job. If he wants to save his rel., he should just give the EII her time and don't spoil anything further. EII prolly already knows his feelings towards the other woman from what he tells her and she prolly also knows OP's own attitude towards the whole thing. So if she already made the decision to stay and give it one more try, it's mainly about surviving the hurt and rebuilding trust.

> appendix : since I'm not EII, won't spread what I'd do in a similar situation myself. But it's decent to say what I saw an EII I know do in such a context >>> actually after his divorce, when his ST wife got involved with another guy during marriage and eventually asked for a separation. His very words while he still loved her: "I would have preferred being cheated on to being completely replaced. I'd rather have not known anything about it." However that EII knew he had played some part in the deterioration of the rel. He was pretty obsessed with his professional life and other relatively self-absorbed acts such as reading&writing at home atm while his wife repeatedly asked him to join her&explore the beauty of the objectively real world outside.

[Words]

This guy smells like user 7576

[Beautiful sky]

Speaking ONLY for myself, I would be emotionally done with you. An EII knows how to take control of a relationship. They secretly hold the power, and are accustomed to that role and responsibility. Though some of them give the appearance of being weak and submissive, they are one of the most socially dominant types.

I'm going to be somewhat blunt. If you're an ILE, there's little chance that you will be able to show the type of sincerity an EII needs to see to begin to forgive. Most ILEs take the "lovable" route over the sincere one, and if the EII has seen it before, she'll know it's empty and meaningless, a symptom of your need to always feel "okay" about things, and like you have her support and love again. You won't. If she's very religious, she might be able to convince herself to stay, but she'll never forget what you did, and never again associate faithfulness with you. Even if you stay together, prepare for lifelong disappointment on her end, maybe with the occasional nostalgia for what was.

I can't speak for Fi-EIIs, who seem to be a lot more understanding and forgiving than I am, but that's my take.

Yes. Excellent. However, as an Fi EII I'm much more stern about my expetations regarding relationship ethics.

It seems to me that it's not understood that unlike other types who I would say seems more oriented towards having the person who wronged be the one who tries to make it right, but that they have to know that their forgiveness is no guarantee. EII is more to be someone who needs to go her own way in being healed; she needs to take her self-care into her own hands (and also trusting a few individuals who are close to her and understand her to help her along- this os where ethics of relations comes along), without the person who wronged her taking the major steps towards reconciliation.*They seem more inclined towards forgiveness, but only after making sure they are secure and happy regardless of whether or not the relationship can be recoconciled.

[Beautiful sky]

You can let her cheat on you with someone, then it all breaks even. Seriously though, from everything you said RE not being in love, you two should probably seek a divorce.

Lol that's what my ESE sister would say.

[Aster]

I doubt I'd leave my husband if he cheated on me, to be honest. Although I would hope he respects me enough not to do that and that I wouldn't let it happen. Being left for someone else would be one of the most traumatizing things I can think of to ever have happen to me. I see my husband as not only my husband, but my best friend and confidant. So cheating on me would be a huge betrayal. I'd never cheat on him.

I'd deal with it in silence myself. I doubt I'd tell anyone. I've dealt with a lot of stuff in silence, and that's the way I prefer it.

I think you can feel when someone is distancing themselves from you. When you feel this distance, it's a red flag. It means you better put more effort into closing it before it expands because it opens up all kinds of room for things to come in between.

As for using the woman as a cop out, that's quite ridiculous. That was not my intention at all. It takes two people to cheat and I was questioning her character and possibly her own intentions, not trying to defend OP or make excuses for him. I don't respect people who cheat, nor do I respect a woman who is willing to be with a man who is married with kids that is cheating on his wife.

I think it'd be really childish to cheat because someone cheated on you. It just leads to a cycle of immaturity and bitterness to both parties, and very little chance for reconciliation. Someone has to be mature enough to not do that and try to make it work or at least try to fix their relationship, imo. It sounds like an 'eye for an eye' to me, something that I personally can't support.

[Aylen]

I think delta NFs have in common that they suffer in silence and retreat after being hurt. Leave her alone. Attempts to be a better husband than ever might appear gimmicky and less than genuine to her (driven by bad conscience more than anything else). This will take time and you will have to just wait it out.

This is what my EII family member does. She suffers and and seeths in private but to the world she puts on a stone face (strong). This happened to her and she forgave more than once. I think it is because she wanted the stability and security her husband(s) provided (she is sp/sx) so it was easier for her to accept her own feelings then put them aside for the good of the extended family. She still passive aggressively attacked them for months after.

When I was cheated on I was the opposite. Nothing passive aggressive about it. I wanted to talk, fight, and I wanted every detail. I wanted him to introduce me to her but he didn't want to. He was actually afraid I would hurt her which made me angrier that he was worried about her getting hurt. I would not have touched her for the record. I probably would have interrogated the fuck out of her.

We did run into her, by coincidence, where I was finally able to see her. I verbally tore her to shreds (to him since she was in a car and couldn't hear) and told him how horrible she looked (wasn't true. she was ok). In a sense I manipulated his perception to the point that he thought she was ugly when I was done. She quit her job, at a bar, over this because that is where he met her and that is where I would go and wait to see her. She never went back to work after hearing he was there with me.

I went into rages which would alternate with wanting to stay with him. Honestly my trust was gone so I did eventually retaliate by cheating and ended up leaving for another guy, a few years later. I could not get over it completely in a way that would allow me to stay in the relationship (romantically) but we stayed very close after I left him.

In my small experience, people (yourself included) in the Alpha and Beta quadrants use Fe, and therefore will adjust their feelings to that of the group (Is cheating OK? This woman is telling me that it is, so maybe it is). But people in the Gamma and Delta quadras (your wife and Maritsa) use Fi, which means they decide how they feel about things, and are not influenced much by others. Knowing how they feel about something is what they do best, and once they decide, they don't usually change their minds. I wish you luck here on the outcome.

I am not EII but I sure the fuck knew how I was feeling, every agonizing moment of it. He told me that my emotions were cycling so fast he could not keep up. I would test him by asking loaded questions. It sucked. He went silent and he was afraid to speak because he was not sure what would set me off.

Even when he was being nice I could flip out unexpectedly when I imagined (a lot) what they had done together, even though I still wanted details to confirm what I was imagining. Maybe that was his Fe polr that made him silent. His feelings weren't influencing me but he felt the wrath of mine. Maybe I was hellbent on making him feel everything I was feeling. He was a gamma. I made sure he felt it. I warned him from the beginning to never lie to me and if he cheated to make sure I never found out. I knew I didn't handle betrayal well. I think this guy is getting off easy no matter how it ends. I am pretty sure he will not be a victim of a crime of passion.

This thread brought up some memories.

[Aylen]

I think it'd be really childish to cheat because someone cheated on you. It just leads to a cycle of immaturity and bitterness to both parties, and very little chance for reconciliation. Someone has to be mature enough to not do that and try to make it work or at least try to fix their relationship, imo. It sounds like an 'eye for an eye' to me, something that I personally can't support.

I didn't see myself as being childish at the time even though we were young. I was living with a pain that would not end. It felt like I had a knife stuck right in my heart and it only ended when I met someone else. At least for a little while but I never really trusted that guy either. He was too charming and flirty but at least he was honest about it. I did tell my ex about him though and he chose to stay with me.

I wasn't able to get over his cheating, in a way that allowed me to stay in the relationship, because he was the first person I ever completely trusted in my whole life. I cannot even express, in words, the magnitude of the betrayal I felt without going into the whole story of how he was everything to me and I gave up everything to be with him, including my family (for several years) and my career. We lived in seclusion, happily, for a few years before it happened. I felt he was the only person who would never lie to me and never betray me. I was naive. I did learn to trust again when I met the guy I eventually left him for but even he ended up doing something that broke my trust which didn't involve cheating. I now try to let go of any expectations of how someone will behave in a relationship. That way I will not be disappointed. I can only be responsible for my own actions and my own responses. I would handle things differently now. I think I am way less volatile than I was then.

Edit: One other thing that was a major influence on how I felt is that, after he cheated, every time he touched me I would see him touching her, in my mind, and it would make me feel physically ill. That went on for a long time...

[withoutd0ubt]

First of all, ladies, thank you for your comments. I just breezed through them and I'll be interacting once I can sit and really read. You all sound exactly like her. Be back soon. Thank you for taking the time!

[withoutd0ubt]

Breaking my trust is one of the worst things you could do to me. And marital/relational unfaithfulness is one of my big fears in life.

If someone did that to me... Gosh, with kids in the picture it's even worse. I'd be wondering what I did wrong followed by what can I do to give my kids as close to what they deserve (which is a loving home).

If you look from a logical perspective, what broke things? Unfaithfulness. What is the opposite of that? You'll need a lot of that and consistently over a long period of time. For me, repairing the relationship would be all about rebuilding trust, which when broken can take a LOT of time and work.

No quick fixes here, sorry.

What broke things? Separation. She was in school and I was busy at work. We didn't invest enough time into our relationship. Time at home was kid oriented with food and then bed. Not a lot of sex. Gradually became distant unintentionally.

[withoutd0ubt]

When an EII says she needs time and that you NEED to respect that it mean DON'T CALL DON'T TEXT DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL AND WHAT YOU'VE DONE. THAT mean go do your shit and leave me alone so I can find my inner peace and calm again by doing activities that don't require thinking about you and what you've done. Such as having calming tea with people who love me and don't remind me of you. Once calm has been reestablished she can consult with people who have a better picture of her feelings and figure out if you're forgiveable matter or she's going to abandon the relationship.You need to understand by cheating on her you have placed the ball which was once shared between you into her court and any further decision in the field of ethics of relationships is to be decided by her, afterall she establishes how relationships are conducted..
If you love her play it by her rules and softly. Offer comfortable things don't make her environment harsh and unbearable. If she likes something yummy take that so she can have it. Just appologiea won't help. Compliment her looks. Don't be too over bearing. Be patient and soft in your approachl

 

Some people here have to at least be able to give advice about relationship matters if they are going to pretend to be EII

This is good stuff. I struggle with playing by others rules, naturally. I have been focusing on "acts of service" bc that's her love language.

[withoutd0ubt]

Socionics aside,

It sounds like you liked your wife more for her looks, but you liked the other girl more for her personality... What happens when your wife gets old? Is her sweetness still going to attract you then when her beauty is fading? It sounds like it has not been as strong from the start because of the reasons for the marriage. It almost sounded like a business exchange instead of a relationship. Although, I think things can look loose from the outside to observers, but a bond can be stronger than anyone realizes because of how loyal someone feels to another. There are things that can't always be seen between people that only they can know.

I think what happens a lot of times is that people get together and fall in love, or are attracted to each other. The reasons for the bond that is made is a very important part of how long a relationship will last. I think to love someone for things that can change, like looks or position, are probably going to make for a less successful relationship than to love someone for things that are more stable over time, like their personality. It's like choosing to play tennis instead of being a ballet dancer....

But I do think looks can be important to some, and probably at least a little bit to most people, but I think being in a relationship where one values a persons bond with another by things, such as internal characteristics, that they admire above all, are going to form a much more concrete relationship that is harder to break from outside elements.

Kids, I think, can put a lot of pressure on relationships, more than a lot of people realize. But they can also hold a relationship together, which is why I think some people even have kids in the first place, such as a means of solidifying a relationship, to create a relationship, to restore a relationship...etc. Of course not always, but it does add another weightier ball to the old ball in chain. But with the time consumption and additional attention that is given to the children that was once reserved by ones significant other, there seems to be less time given to the importance of a relationship, a lot of times. The relationship could then become more neglected. Add a very demanding job to the equation, and it could result in problems... I think sometimes what makes a relationship more solidified can therefore make it more susceptible to cracking.

It's like a relationship is built brick by brick. A lot of time could be spent building it. But how stable was the ground in which it was built? A bricklayer and the hod carrier built it together, through cool days, and sometimes days where the working conditions were hot, in the times that were harder, but they still kept going, the harder the times, the more they feel for each other in the heat, the more they have to share, the more they know each other...but how was the quality of work put into it by both parties, and will it last through tough times when outside elements try to tear it down?...It just depends on the quality and how well it was built...How strong or elastic it is. Your relationship sounds like it's currently at a tipping point dependent on it's worth and strength.

If you want to keep your relationship and try to make it work, I'd suggest getting a new e-mail address or block the other from your existing one, block the other woman's number from your phone, possibly block her from your life in all ways possible. If it was me, I'd stay close so your wife knows you aren't running off or going behind her back, doing things you shouldn't be doing, to just show you have nothing to hide and aren't sneaking around. To put your hands out in front of you, so to say. It's going to take time, probably a lot of it, and trust is going to have to be built again. You need to give her space still, but still be there for her and support her when she wants you to be. It sounds like she needs to think things through without you smothering her in the process. Think of yourself as being on probation and any mistake will send you to jail. You're basically walking on eggshells while her internal council deliberates and decides to give you your sentence.

But, as I'm sure you know, you've put a hole in the wall of your relationship, and the remnants are going to always be there, haunting you forever. It's not something you can just erase.

Sometimes when people aren't confident in something, or they want to make a point, they start doing something more frequently than what they usually do, possibly for external validation or because they are insecure. It can seems insincere, like they are trying too hard, or it makes them seem even more transparent in their intentions and insecurities... so maybe that's why your wife felt it was too much, and that it was making things worse...like you were laying it on too thick to compensate for your mistakes..

What you've done is you haven't left your wife and gone with this other woman, so it is a sign that you still love your wife and that she is more important to you than the other woman. Not only that, but you have kids, which is probably making her, and possibly you, want to work it out even more.

You are going to have to win yourself into her good graces, but some questions I think it would be good to ask yourself:

1. Do you still work with the woman you had an affair with? If so, do you believe it would be beneficial for your relationship to move or get a different job?

2. Do you see yourself being capable of being faithful to your wife in the future? Are you prepared to stay with her and only her?

3. Would you really have been happy with the other woman in a few years after the newness had warn off? Where would you have been then? How would this have effected your relationship with your children?

4. What happened to bring you to cheat? Was it not enough time with your spouse, brought on by work and kids? Something else? How can it be fixed so it won't happen again?

5. What kind of women cheats with a man, knowing he is married with two kids? What does that say about such a women? Is that the kind of women that you would really want to have a relationship with?

At first looks was the attraction. Love because of her calming sweetness. Over time, her tenderness contrasted my harshness. Then, because the way she makes everything better. Then because she's a great mother. After 12 years she's still just as beautiful. The timeless beauty. Same weight after two kids. Etc.

1. Quit the group. Actively seeking other employment.
2. Yes, wasn't hard the first 12. I responded above about the distance factor.
3. Yes. Unsure.
4. Again, above reasons regarding distance.
5. That's what my wife said. Valid point. She was a scumbag too. Everyone is selfish at some level, I think.

[Amber]

What broke things? Separation. She was in school and I was busy at work. We didn't invest enough time into our relationship. Time at home was kid oriented with food and then bed. Not a lot of sex. Gradually became distant unintentionally.

Hi, Dude,

You've got here a bunch of folks who try to attack your pb by saying what they (as EIIs) would do in a similar situation, how you should act if you wanna make it it work, or why you were a bag full of scum coz of cheating.
If you really are interested in improving your relationship, you gotta give a few more details about ur concrete situation. Where are you 2 standing right now. It's easy to infer what made you grow apart ... not clear how she's acting RIGHT NOW.

Plus you should totally cut off communication to the other woman if you want to fix things. Not clear what you and her are (still) doing and stuff. What you desire is pretty obvious ... your actual context is not.

[withoutd0ubt]

This guy smells like user 7576

Thanks. Really helps.

[mu4]

Stuff happens, if you didn't cheat for 12 years, this might have been a one off thing(it does happen).

When people work closely together it can easily get into trouble territory. If there are other issues you have with your wife before the affair that's where your problems will be in the future.

[Kim]

I would not give him this cop-out. He is the cheater, not the woman. She did not cheat on his wife. No need to make her out to be a bad person for any purpose.

As for using the woman as a cop out, that's quite ridiculous. That was not my intention at all. It takes two people to cheat and I was questioning her character and possibly her own intentions, not trying to defend OP or make excuses for him. I don't respect people who cheat, nor do I respect a woman who is willing to be with a man who is married with kids that is cheating on his wife.

She has her own story of which we know nothing. He talked to her about leaving his wife, so he probably sounded to her as if he wanted a relationship. I don't see why there is a need to make her out to be a bad person when she probably has her own baggage.

And see, he is already doing it:

5. That's what my wife said. Valid point. She was a scumbag too. Everyone is selfish at some level, I think.

No, not a valid point at all. You are even more of a scumbag for now turning against your lover to save your own skin. She is not married to your wife and she probably didn't yank your penis out of your pants against your will.

I think I have in common with EIIs that I need to see a person taking full responsibility and showing genuine remorse to forgive a transgression like this. Flirting and playing good husband won't cut it with Delta NFs.

[Beautiful sky]

What I need is true love....not left overs...not second best or seconds...but to be the one and only.
I need you to put up with me, to make me smile, to make exciting plans together and work on those as a unit.
It helps if you playfully and vibrantly try to get me to listen to your adoration and spoil me with nice dinners out, a good coffee etc...I can usually tell what's real and what's not or at least I get your intentions so don't try to fool me but I can take whatever exaggerations you might playfully/excitedly make for even when I'm upset these work. I'm after love and like to be spoilt.
However there is a stage past being just upset and when I'm in this stage I don't want you around - just leave, give me time, I'm angry right now and when like this I don't desire touch or any smothering behaviour, I could even pick up a pillow or cushion and use it on you at this stage if you don't depart. I need time alone so I may lock the bedroom door or leave the house.
Can I forgive for infidelity? When younger I would have said no but now I'm not so sure for if I were ever to make a mistake in this area I would likely desire forgiveness...so as I've aged I now will say that I might try...but damage isn't easy to overcome. I could begin letting go of the other half and the relationship as a form of protection. I would need to know that interactions with the other party were no longer occurring in any form and this could mean that in a situation like the above that a new job is on the horizon.
If you desire the other person I would rather let go...for if you don't want me - then I don't want you (Issues of abandonment and not being wanted stemming from childhood).
I'm unlikely to put up a fight in any way though children and financial commitments would complicate things.
A relationship can be rebuilt but is never the same, taking great commitment and much time.

Note this is written by someone who may not be an EII so take what you will from the ramblings :-)

Shay my bf's mom likes the same kind of whimsical art as you. Do you like kinkade?

[withoutd0ubt]

It seems to me that he loves his wife even though he foud her attractive when they first met.

We were kids when we first met. 15 me/14 her. There's no love then. I do love her. As much as I can understand what love is.

[withoutd0ubt]

Hi, Dude,

You've got here a bunch of folks who try to attack your pb by saying what they (as EIIs) would do in a similar situation, how you should act if you wanna make it it work, or why you were a bag full of scum coz of cheating.
If you really are interested in improving your relationship, you gotta give a few more details about ur concrete situation. Where are you 2 standing right now. It's easy to infer what made you grow apart ... not clear how she's acting RIGHT NOW.

Plus you should totally cut off communication to the other woman if you want to fix things. Not clear what you and her are (still) doing and stuff. What you desire is pretty obvious ... your actual context is not.

We are living in our house together. We talk, we eat, we've been hugging. She says she's been broken, much like other EIIs here have said they'd feel. She loves me undeniably and immensely. She's struggling. We do a lot of the same stuff, just now with a 1037482 elephant with us. Nothing intimate yet. A few kisses but not sensual, perhaps just out of habit.

Other woman has been extremely cut off. Every pic, text, email, phone message, phone call log, etc and I told her as much. She still calls me to "check on me" but I ignore. Ignoring is easy for us rationals.

[withoutd0ubt]

She has her own story of which we know nothing. He talked to her about leaving his wife, so he probably sounded to her as if he wanted a relationship. I don't see why there is a need to make her out to be a bad person when she probably has her own baggage.

And see, he is already doing it:



No, not a valid point at all. You are even more of a scumbag for now turning against your lover to save your own skin. She is not married to your wife and she probably didn't yank your penis out of your pants against your will.

I think I have in common with EIIs that I need to see a person taking full responsibility and showing genuine remorse to forgive a transgression like this. Flirting and playing good husband won't cut it with Delta NFs.

Why so serious? She isn't a bad person, just was selfish. She has her own kid and a divorce behind her.

Remorse? You don't know me. I just posted to random people a tiny fraction of my point of view as an objective description of the situation for informational purposes.

Ask questions instead of assuming because yours are wrong so far.

[withoutd0ubt]

Stuff happens, if you didn't cheat for 12 years, this might have been a one off thing(it does happen).

When people work closely together it can easily get into trouble territory. If there are other issues you have with your wife before the affair that's where your problems will be in the future.

It wasn't intended. I keep my guard up. I don't think I'd ever met a "dual", she was just exciting. I'd have rather been her friend but that never works, plus we're both attractive and in shape so there was sexual tension.

No doubt I screwed up. That's why I'm here learning about the EII heart to help hers heal.

Since then I've given her all my passwords and account info on everything so she can sync them. No barriers to be private. Don't want them anymore.

[Beautiful sky]

We were kids when we first met. 15 me/14 her. There's no love then. I do love her. As much as I can understand what love is.

Love is morality

[Kim]

Why so serious? She isn't a bad person, just was selfish. She has her own kid and a divorce behind her.

Remorse? You don't know me. I just posted to random people a tiny fraction of my point of view as an objective description of the situation for informational purposes.

Ask questions instead of assuming because yours are wrong so far.

But she is not married to your wife, so she it not the bad guy in the scenario between you and your wife. Who cares if she is selfish or a slut or a saint? YOU made the mistake in your marriage and it has nothing to do with socionics or selfish lovers. You put your wife's emotional and physical well-being at risk and now you want to "fix it." And my point is that you can't "fix it." You need to own it and take responsibility and maybe she will come around.

[withoutd0ubt]

I doubt I'd leave my husband if he cheated on me, to be honest. Although I would hope he respects me enough not to do that and that I wouldn't let it happen. Being left for someone else would be one of the most traumatizing things I can think of to ever have happen to me. I see my husband as not only my husband, but my best friend and confidant. So cheating on me would be a huge betrayal. I'd never cheat on him.

I'd deal with it in silence myself. I doubt I'd tell anyone. I've dealt with a lot of stuff in silence, and that's the way I prefer it.

I think you can feel when someone is distancing themselves from you. When you feel this distance, it's a red flag. It means you better put more effort into closing it before it expands because it opens up all kinds of room for things to come in between.

As for using the woman as a cop out, that's quite ridiculous. That was not my intention at all. It takes two people to cheat and I was questioning her character and possibly her own intentions, not trying to defend OP or make excuses for him. I don't respect people who cheat, nor do I respect a woman who is willing to be with a man who is married with kids that is cheating on his wife.

I think it'd be really childish to cheat because someone cheated on you. It just leads to a cycle of immaturity and bitterness to both parties, and very little chance for reconciliation. Someone has to be mature enough to not do that and try to make it work or at least try to fix their relationship, imo. It sounds like an 'eye for an eye' to me, something that I personally can't support.

Honestly I appreciate this comment. I don't excuse myself. I'm guilty. I was selfish and prideful and loved the adoration. My EII isn't as overtly affectionate with words and ego stroking (ILEs love that) but she's steadfast in her unconditional love and I love that - it just doesn't give me what my stupid ego demands.

[withoutd0ubt]

First off, there are very few EIIs on this forum if any at all. (You follow my drift, don't you?) Second, I like what you've written. Keep writing, and I'll hacksaw it all up into a glittering, iridescent, Vortical-synergistical, swirling spiral, to your liking of course.

I agree with your self-typing of ILE, and that's rare.

Good. There are very few EIIs anywhere, hence begging random strangers to help me understand their complex hearts. Me, I'm easy to understand emotionally because I'll give it to you straight or I don't have them as deeply as an EII.

I've been typed multiple times in MBTI as either INTP/ENTJ. INTP at home, ENTJ at work. Socionics is more capable thorough though, and I'm an ILE. Read it, it's me perfectly.

Thanks for your response.

[withoutd0ubt]

After going through the entire mess of words:


> from the way he speaks about his wife OP kinda has enough affection for the EII to want to make things work. He didn't marry her for looks only. Besides there are hardly any other problems approached here apart from his cheating, so it's safe to assume their relationship was relatively good up to this critical point.

> OP cheated more outta boredom and irresponsibility rather than bitterness and saturation with wife or fatal attraction to other woman >> who is prolly not even his dual, but it's better to claim it was duality that made him do it, right.

> OP doesn't want to replace existing rel. with another. Cheating left him with a relatively sour taste. Now sure cheating is not ok ... but I don't think it only happens to ILE or alphas or whatever. Actually "straying" one way or another ..whether through real acts, thought, gaze, ambiguous sympathies etc is not hellishly rare in such a ltr like marriage (which can feel a bit stifling at one point)

> The key here seems rather how the OP can fix stuff and if mistake can be corrected rather than who's to blame and in what degree. Obviously he fucked it up and he knows it. He doesn't necessarily sound like he's ready to cheat again anytime. He's kinda genuinely curious about getting outta the mess he's in.

> From what he says about EII wife it's not a stretch to assume she wants to keep the rel. , but is hurt and needs time to see if trust can be restored. If she married him, it's safe to think there was a healthy-enough level of trust overall. The OP should patiently give her time and consistently prove feelings via actions without emotional dramatics, creepy theatrical flattery, and clumsy forced attempts at "being a good husband". Those will only make her more skeptical. Be very attentive to her. Don't approach sensitive topic if she avoids it. Shower kids with all the love possible - she will see how attached he is to his family.

> Not sure what the concrete situation between them right now is...OP is vague. Did they separate? Does she think of divorce? Do they still sleep together, eat together, go out together etc ...or there's this huge barrier-wall built between them? Did she take her things and move to her parents' place? any attempt to break the rel.. ? It's important.

> OP should be fully aware of the seriousness of what he did. Caused a nice breach in his marriage. Good job. If he wants to save his rel., he should just give the EII her time and don't spoil anything further. EII prolly already knows his feelings towards the other woman from what he tells her and she prolly also knows OP's own attitude towards the whole thing. So if she already made the decision to stay and give it one more try, it's mainly about surviving the hurt and rebuilding trust.

> appendix : since I'm not EII, won't spread what I'd do in a similar situation myself. But it's decent to say what I saw an EII I know do in such a context >>> actually after his divorce, when his ST wife got involved with another guy during marriage and eventually asked for a separation. His very words while he still loved her: "I would have preferred being cheated on to being completely replaced. I'd rather have not known anything about it." However that EII knew he had played some part in the deterioration of the rel. He was pretty obsessed with his professional life and other relatively self-absorbed acts such as reading&writing at home atm while his wife repeatedly asked him to join her&explore the beauty of the objectively real world outside.

Mess of words? Hey pot, I'm kettle.

Very good relationship up till this point. Everyone gave us the perfect couple label.

Was dual, typed her and then made her confirm with testing. The gnawing of her irritating/intoxicating personality gave me the first inkling. Wasn't boredom either, I weightlift, play sports, write, and research to keep me busy.

I didn't want to be alone, honestly. I never have. We've been together since we were 15 so I had no desire to be a bachelor. Cheating wasn't ok and it went against a moral value of mine, having wanted to never get divorced and be a great dad.

Yes, I've been doing the space thing since she's said that and just have been trying to stay out of her way. Creating the "safe place" mentioned by others herein. She's opening back up but she's got her guard up for sure.

No separation. No divorce. About to go to couples counseling. Still living together. I went to my parents for a few weeks because I didn't want to supplant the kids.

[withoutd0ubt]

But she is not married to your wife, so she it not the bad guy in the scenario between you and your wife. Who cares if she is selfish or a slut or a saint? YOU made the mistake in your marriage and it has nothing to do with socionics or selfish lovers. You put your wife's emotional and physical well-being at risk and now you want to "fix it." And my point is that you can't "fix it." You need to own it and take responsibility and maybe she will come around.

And why so serious? Because it sounds like a serious situation and because I have been where your wife is now and it sucks?

Sorry, I was joking about "why so serious?". The woman did have an issue with it but having been divorced herself with a stable current dual household role for her kid she knew that the kids would overcome. She didn't want to be a home wrecker but she also had a part to play.