Do introverted functions communicate?

[Hope]

Information Elements extraverted are focused in the external things and is prone to move in that way and communicate or interact.

Do you think that Introverted Functions really communicate with the external world or they always rely in the extroverted function of the block for providing information?

I.e. In a Si Te, does Si truly communicates with the external world or its information is just transfered to the next function (Te) to communicate information in a subdued way?

I've had the impression recently that just extraverted elements does the task of communicating with the external world.

What do you think?

[Bertrand]

verbal (rational) communication can be thought of as Te and Fe primarily (object oriented, i.e.: directed at a thing, another person rather than the self), but communication in the broad sense is a product of the entire personality... for example some people exude Si, which is the nature of dualistic relations between IEE and SLI, to say this isn't "communication" would be one of those static definitional paradoxes. it really just goes to how narrowly you define communication

[idontgiveaf]

Yes. It only perceives as for Si and Ni and judge extrovertly using Te/Fe

While for Fi and Ti it judges on what you perceived using Ne/Se

[Sol]

Do you think that Introverted Functions really communicate with the external world or they always rely in the extroverted function of the block for providing information?

all functions may deal with the external world directly

Ti formulas people share between themselves. Following to own aesthetic taste Si types organise the environment. Fi sympathies feelings people show to other ones and attract them by this. Ni thoughts about tendencies people say to others to assure or to warn them.

[Rebelondeck]

In order to communicate, one must do so from a base; the bigger the base, the greater the potential for communications. A baby only communicates primal needs because it has little to no history from which to draw. In a sense, communication is an all inclusive process.

a.k.a. I/O

[Allegra]

If that's true, it would make an ILI-Te more extraverted than an LIE-Ni.

[Rebelondeck]

If that's true, it would make an ILI-Te more extraverted than an LIE-Ni.

@Yours Truly Not really because they still have different dominant processes, and by dominant, I refer to the process in charge as opposed to the one online the most. However, when they communicate, there's a lot of similarity in the ways they go about it even though the objectives and tactics usually differ - both can be rather animated and passionate but the ILI is usually more defensive while the LIE employs a somewhat intrusive tactic.

a.k.a. I/O

[Allegra]

@Yours Truly Not really because they still have different dominant processes, and by dominant, I refer to the process in charge as opposed to the one online the most. However, when they communicate, there's a lot of similarity in the ways they go about it even though the objectives and tactics usually differ - both can be rather animated and passionate but the ILI is usually more defensive while the LIE employs a somewhat intrusive tactic.

a.k.a. I/O

Is the difference between defensive vs intrusive due to the difference between Se hidden agenda vs Se seeking? Like an LIE would be reaching out more, almost prying vs an ILI would shy away from some topics and would respond cautiously when asked and initiate less?

What would you say is the best way to tell apart an ILI-Te and an LIE-Ni?

[Hope]

I'm talking about real communication, I mean the worded thoughts and phrases. I know that all elements communicate something, since all elements conform personality, types have a certain traits related to their stack, so we can notice Fi or Ni or Si when we know or interact with someone, but that's not what I'm referring to, but if introverted functions do really have an interest to communicating something or truly wanting to appear out there, or its just works for the self and the individual with his/her personal life, even when we can notice them due the individual behavior. I hope not being too confusing.

[ooo]

So this is basically the same approach of MBTI, where it's the extroverted functions to define the J/P temperament of a type. There's the usual ambiguity for the poor introverts that use primarly an introverted function, in MBTI this is resolved by making introverts appear like their extroverted functions. The main idea is something like "the world is blind to introversion" and basically we can just communicate through the function that reaches out: ESTJ with Te, INFP and ISTP with Ne and Se, and so on.

I personally see a lot of sense in this approach, because it's true that the types use their auxiliary and because it's true that introverts take longer to reach out (just because they're busy using their main introverted function), but once they open up they'll tend to show something like a product of themselves, in a sense they'll keep being guarded by the impenetrability of their basic introversion.

[Bertrand]

I'm talking about real communication, I mean the worded thoughts and phrases. I know that all elements communicate something, since all elements conform personality, types have a certain traits related to their stack, so we can notice Fi or Ni or Si when we know or interact with someone, but that's not what I'm referring to, but if introverted functions do really have an interest to communicating something or truly wanting to appear out there, or its just works for the self and the individual with his/her personal life, even when we can notice them due the individual behavior. I hope not being too confusing.

I think that's the rational elements.. both Tx and Fx are rational so the attitude is not that important.. but I will say its the extroverted attitudes are generally concerned with work (which can be logical or ethical in a certain sense) i.e.: adjusting the environment, conveying something.. Ti or Fi may be rational and even utterable, but by definition its emphasis is on how much sense or how strongly it is felt by the individual, you can think of Te or Fe as trying to get one over a certain threshold. emphasis on an introverted function can produce these effects as a byproduct, but the clearest communication is direct attention to the rational extroverted functions (and even if it weren't the extroverted functions would just copy whatever was--this is what Te does when it "steals" good explanations, or Fe perpetuates slogans--this would be kind of like appropriating what was once just a product of the demonstrative function--and reusing it because it worked)

[Allegra]

So this is basically the same approach of MBTI, where it's the extroverted functions to define the J/P temperament of a type. There's the usual ambiguity for the poor introverts that use primarly an introverted function, in MBTI this is resolved by making introverts appear like their extroverted functions. The main idea is something like "the world is blind to introversion" and basically we can just communicate through the function that reaches out: ESTJ with Te, INFP and ISTP with Ne and Se, and so on.

I personally see a lot of sense in this approach, because it's true that the types use their auxiliary and because it's true that introverts take longer to reach out (just because they're busy using their main introverted function), but once they open up they'll tend to show something like a product of themselves, in a sense they'll keep being guarded by the impenetrability of their basic introversion.

I think that's the rational elements.. both Tx and Fx are rational so the attitude is not that important.. but I will say its the extroverted attitudes are generally concerned with (which can be logical or ethical in a certain sense) i.e.: adjusting the environment, conveying something.. Ti or Fi may be rational and even utterable, but by definition its emphasis is on how much sense or how strongly it is felt by the individual, you can think of Te or Fe as trying to get one over a certain threshold. emphasis on an introverted function can produce these effects as a byproduct, but the clearest communication is direct attention to the rational extroverted functions (and even if it weren't the extroverted functions would just copy whatever was--this is what Te does when it "steals" good explanations, or Fe perpetuates slogans--this would be kind of like appropriating what was once just a product of the demonstrative function--and reusing it because it worked)

Would it make JiPe types appear less extroverted than PiJe types?

[Bertrand]

I think what it means to "appear extroverted" depends on the level of analysis, like gulenko says there's the psychological social and intellectual communicative space. people will have varying degrees of apparent "expansion" across those planes, and its generally "social expansiveness" that people mean when they colloquially use the term extroversion. everyones got their little fiefdom and if you view them in their sandbox they're likely to appear extroverted. this assumes they found an application for their extroverted function, so introverts in an environment where their creative function gets a lot of use, especially if its Fe or Te will probably seem extroverted, especially if they're that subtype. anyone with a primary accent on an extroverted function is going to appear extroverted, and you can probably say the same thing about accents on introverted functions (an accent on an extroverted function may dictate their appearance but not their actual capacity to succeed in that realm, in other words lots of neurotics may act extroverted or introverted despite their actual strengths, that is in fact much of what neuroticism is). the philosopher hegel was considered EIE but he was basically an academic who spent all his time writing. his extroversion was directed into the humanitarian realm of ideas and has penetrated time and culture for over a century now, but if you judged him socially you would say he was practically a recluse and had to be introverted

[Hope]

An example:

A black bird sings. The bird is the personality (the sociotype), the color is the introverted ego function (Ti, Si, Ni, Fi), the singing is the extroverted one (Te,Se,Ne,Fe). The constitution of the animal indicates its a bird (sociotype), the color of the bird (black) is the introverted function of the ego block, which is visible to anyone who sees it, but not because the bird is wanting to communicate something through its color, but because its what it is, is just a trait, then he decides when and how he sings (extroverted function).

I dont see the J/P relation in what I'm saying. T and F extroverted and introverted are both j, N and S are p. Its not related to extroversion or introversion in types (maybe I'm not understanding the relation, so explain, lol).

[Allegra]

I think what it means to "appear extroverted" depends on the level of analysis, like gulenko says there's the psychological social and intellectual communicative space. people will have varying degrees of apparent "expansion" across those planes, and its generally "social expansiveness" that people mean when they colloquially use the term extroversion. everyones got their little fiefdom and if you view them in their sandbox they're likely to appear extroverted. this assumes they found an application for their extroverted function, so introverts in an environment where their creative function gets a lot of use, especially if its Fe or Te will probably seem extroverted, especially if they're that subtype. anyone with a primary accent on an extroverted function is going to appear extroverted, and you can probably say the same thing about accents on introverted functions (an accent on an extroverted function may dictate their appearance but not their actual capacity to succeed in that realm, in other words lots of neurotics may act extroverted or introverted despite their actual strengths, that is in fact much of what neuroticism is). the philosopher hegel was considered EIE but he was basically an academic who spent all his time writing. his extroversion was directed into the humanitarian realm of ideas and has penetrated time and culture for over a century now, but if you judged him socially you would say he was practically a recluse and had to be introverted

If I understand you correctly you are saying neuroticism (from Big Five) are more likely among JiPe-Pe, PiJe-Je, JePi-Pi and PeJi-Ji subtypes than JiPe-Ji, PiJe-Pi, JePi-Je and PeJi-Pe subtypes, is that right?

[ooo]

Would it make JiPe types appear less extroverted than PiJe types?

You could say so but it depends on the functions, a FiSe will look far more extroverted than a FiNe, and probably more than a NiFe or a TiSe too, or even a SiTe.

[Bertrand]

well lets first get clear on neuroticism, in the big 5 its sensitivity to negative emotion, but in psycho analytic theory its more about being in conflict, i.e.: divided or estranged from oneself in a way that decreases one's ability to realize one's own potential, and in socionics neuroticism is about the core personality, i.e.: the ego, being destroyed and being forced into other functions. ok so in the big 5 neuroticism could just be a healthy Hamlet, because they are sensitive to negative emotion, but they're also proficient with them, so its not neuroticism within the psycho analytic meaning or the socionics meaning. a type accent in gulenko's system can be any number of functions or just one and it doesn't matter whether its valued or not. in the 2 type subtype system it is usually thought of as either base or creative function (and the functions that follow them). a type accent in gulenkos system, especially if its on a weak function can lead to the psycho analytic kind of neuroticism: emphasis on this aspect that is leading you away from your ego (in a way that the ego was never allowed to fully develop), making you weaker than you could be etc. in the socionics meaning whether or not a type accent makes you neurotic is one of degree. a strong accent on a super ego function may result in you not even (or minimally) using your ego functions and generally leave you debilitated, it can in essence destroy the ego, and this is something that starts at a young age in a bad environment for the person. notice the socionics and psycho analytic versions are similar because socionics came out of analytic psychology, usually if you have one you have the other, they're just different ways of describing something very similar. the big 5 is more of a measurement on the back end: types that are neurotic by the psycho analytic definition are probably likely to exhibit greater sensitivity to negative emotion but its not guranteed. big 5 is sort of its own separate thing with its own operative assumptions and so forth

[Allegra]

You could say so but it depends on the functions, a FiSe will look far more extroverted than a FiNe, and probably more than a NiFe or a TiSe too, or even a SiTe.

Possibly. Se creatives are among the most assertive of introverts, but not because they like people's company. Compared to ESI's, EII's are far more forgiving and giving people benefit of doubt due to their Ne.

[ooo]

An example:

A black bird sings. The bird is the personality (the sociotype), the color is the introverted ego function (Ti, Si, Ni, Fi), the singing is the extroverted one (Te,Se,Ne,Fe). The constitution of the animal indicates its a bird (sociotype), the color of the bird (black) is the introverted function of the ego block, which is visible to anyone who sees it, but not because the bird is wanting to communicate something through its color, but because its what it is, is just a trait, then he decides when and how he sings (extroverted function).

I dont see the J/P relation in what I'm saying. T and F extroverted and introverted are both j, N and S are p. Its not related to extroversion or introversion in types (maybe I'm not understanding the relation, so explain, lol).

I don't think you can compare the blackness to the main function. Jung says we can confuse the dominant function of a person for their unconscious, because the unconscious is always present to some extent, and because we may not be in tune with the expression of another's dominant function. For all I know, it's quite misleading to type someone without any idea of how they are beyond their look, IEs are cognitive functions and require an interaction to be intercepted, they're not displayed as static apparent features, at least I think so.

The J/P switch for introverts is the difference that there's between socionics and MBTI, where MBTI says that it's the extroverted function to create the bridge with the world and it's this that influences the ways in which one operates, J/P. So you can say: communication= one's own expression= extroversion. So if introverts communicate through their extroverted functions, they'll appear J if P and P if J.

[Hope]

I don't think you can compare the blackness to the main function. Jung says we can confuse the dominant function of a person for their unconscious, because the unconscious is always present to some extent, and because we may not be in tune with the expression of another's dominant function. For all I know, it's quite misleading to type someone without any idea of how they are beyond their look, IEs are cognitive functions and require an interaction to be intercepted, they're not displayed as static apparent features, at least I think so.

The J/P switch for introverts is the difference that there's between socionics and MBTI, where MBTI says that it's the extroverted function to create the bridge with the world and it's this that influences the ways in which one operates, J/P. So you can say: communication= one's own expression= extroversion. So if introverts communicate through their extroverted functions, they'll appear J if P and P if J.

Oh ok, I get it now. But is truly supported by mbti theory that secondary function determines the J/P or its just your inference? (I didnt heard from that before, since most of mbti tests score based in dichotomy not in functions, being theory a secondary part of the typing process.

Then, the intention wasnt compare blackness to main function but to Introverted function in all blocks. I'm not truly based in order but in if the introverted elements really express outside (in all blocks, I used ego since is the most important, valued and 4d). I've the same question for all the types, even extroverts, for example, the Ni of an LIE or the Fi of an IEE, do these really manifest outside or they remain working inside as part of the personality, but part that is not interested in expression but the constitution of the inner world?

[ooo]

Oh ok, I get it now. But is truly supported by mbti theory that secondary function determines the J/P or its just your inference? (I didnt heard from that before, since most of mbti tests score based in dichotomy not in functions, being theory a secondary part of the typing process.

Hehe, no I'm not sure, but in MBTI the secondary function determinates J/P only for the introverts: an ENFP is a Ne, while an INFP is still a Ne and an ISTJ is a Si. So it's always the extroverted function to tell the kind of J/P approach in MBTI. This is the main difference with socion that says that it's instead the first function to tell the J/P temperament, even for introverts. I see a sense in both ideas, dominant functions are the distinctive elements of a type, so if someone is an introvert their introverted main function will still be working, even if from outside it might result "muted". But given this idea, and keeping in mind that introverted types, unlike the extroverted, work primarily within and it takes more time for them to reach outside, there's a sense in saying that it's the auxiliary function, for the introverts, to pop out, so that you'll see a Ne out of an EII, but differently from an IEE because the Ne of an EII will be filtered by their muted Fi. So you'll just get a glimpse of Fi thorugh the Ne they display.. (now what about the demo?!)

So maybe introverted functions don't communicate directly but you get glimpses of them by the extroverted function they're coupled with... (MBTI)

[Rebelondeck]

Is the difference between defensive vs intrusive due to the difference between Se hidden agenda vs Se seeking? Like an LIE would be reaching out more, almost prying vs an ILI would shy away from some topics and would respond cautiously when asked and initiate less?

What would you say is the best way to tell apart an ILI-Te and an LIE-Ni?

I don't see it in those terms. In communication, ILIs tend to stand by what they know a lot more and defend it; even in banter, others can be treated like opponents that are subjected to a gauntlet of counter arguments. LIEs tend to adapt their tone and approach to suit a purpose; they'll use anything from sweetness to intimidation to achieve an effect or objective. ILIs seem to use humour more to cut any potential tension whereas LIEs tend to complement or make some shows of generosity. Even when there's nothing to be gained or lost, I often get an impression that LIEs are after something or have something to prove, and ILIs seem to be critical half the time while hiding behind walls during the other half.

a.k.a. I/O

[Guillaine]

Since later developments of my aux Fi I have noticed changes in my communication and the way it is perceived by others, so if you take communication to include body language, eyes, how the messages get across not just the words, but also the words, in my experience Fi does come through. I now use much fewer words to say more, people understand what I want or feel through my eyes and body language, I subconsciously move in sync with my Fi both eye movement and body movement, towards or away from things, these kinds of things, which clearly are communicative signals because I notice how other people pick up on them and respond. As far as what I say, I think there are a few changes since having more developed Fi, that have naturally occurred such as wanting to apologize to someone directly if I perceive myself to be at fault, that kind of thing. So what I say has changed too. Oh, yeah, and I follow my values more so for eg, I stopped shaving so my hairy legs communicate something too!

[Exodus]

Introversion can roughly be identified with input (perception, stasis) and extroversion with output (action, movement). In other words introversion is about how the world affects us, while extroversion is about how we affect the world.

[Hope]

Introversion can roughly be identified with input (perception, stasis) and extroversion with output (action, movement). In other words introversion is about how the world affects us, while extroversion is about how we affect the world.

how we affect the world could not include our verbal communication?

[domr]

If you believe extraverted functions = outside world then you might want to go back to MBTI.

[consentingadult]

Information Elements extraverted are focused in the external things are is prone to move in that way and communicate or interact.

Do you think that Introverted Functions really communicate with the external world or they always rely in the extroverted function of the block for providing information?

I.e. In a Si Te, does Si truly communicates with the external world or its information is just transfered to the next function (Te) to communicate information in a subdued way?

I've had the impression recently that just extraverted elements does the task of communicating with the external world.

What do you think?

Yes, they do. Take, for example, the Si in ESEs and LSEs, they use it as a form of non-verbal communication, or perhaps we should say as a way of making contact:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.co...ch-of-lse.html

However, the Si in SEIs and SLIs is mainly used for their own good, so one is only affected indirectly and 'accidentally' by it, by jumping on their bandwagon, so to speak. SEIs and SLIs use Fe and Te respectively to communicate. Just listen to SEIs and SLIs whine and complain when comfort is obstructed in some way...

[Exodus]

how we affect the world could not include our verbal communication?

It certainly does That would be Fe for the most part.

[Soupman]

Information Elements extraverted are focused in the external things are is prone to move in that way and communicate or interact.

Do you think that Introverted Functions really communicate with the external world or they always rely in the extroverted function of the block for providing information?

I.e. In a Si Te, does Si truly communicates with the external world or its information is just transfered to the next function (Te) to communicate information in a subdued way?

I've had the impression recently that just extraverted elements does the task of communicating with the external world.

What do you think?

You do know that socionics is about observable and verifiable inferences of behaviour from real people and less so about unsubstantiated speculation into the supposed workings on the mind. Both introversion and extroversion are about the external world (and internal world), they relay differences with attitude that can explain how we can be different.

IMs are derived from behaviour and attitudes, which includes verbal insignia. From the accepting and producing dichotomy and mirror relations, it's apparent that introverted IMs speaks for themselves and they relay information that is inline with the designated attitude.

Assuming you are SLI, your accepting "Si" intellectually is what gives you the query you are proposing (about the nature of introverted IMs) and an LSE that understands socionics would perceive your conjecture as kinda stupid because they want to see facts and evidence first ("Te" intellectually) before they take a perspective (which is an "Si" perspective you bring first) for those facts seriously (hence producing).

PS
Socionics is more interesting as differences interacting with different types in terms of information - from this perspective you get to understand why people have a hard time understanding you or not.

http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/model_a/
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...rror-Relations

[Hope]

Assuming you are SLI, your accepting "Si" intellectually is what gives you the query you are proposing (about the nature of introverted IMs) and an LSE that understands socionics would perceive your conjecture as kinda stupid because they want to see facts and evidence first ("Te" intellectually) before they take a perspective (which is an "Si" perspective you bring first) for those facts seriously (hence producing).