Carl Sagan: IEE > EII
Carl Sagan: IEE > EII
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
Nykytyne2 is Alpha NT. If you watch his videos you can see his thought processes. He thinks very fast and talks really fast, things just come directly from his mind in a stream of consciousness.
He consistently take rationalist positions and even defends kantian methods.
His main method of argumentation is thought experiments, and playing with them to change the outcome of a argument.
i'm pretty sure zjemptv is not alpha nt.
Last edited by mu4; 08-28-2010 at 05:16 AM.
Am I meant to type this? I'd say stereotypically it's something I'd expect from - indeed in my experience similar organization for whatever activities, work or pleasure, usually started with Gammas bitching about lack thereof and Deltas implementing it to shut them up. OK so it's a very particular example of using one's supervisees, but I love having LSEs around for this . But other types achieve similar results if they care. It all depends how serious you're about it and how much effort you're willing to put into it.
I'm not sure how you imagine "Gamma infrastructure", but I sure don't see how what you describe would be in any way distinguished as Alpha over other quadras. Sorry but it just sounds like people making sense, regardless of socionics.
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Last edited by mfckr; 12-29-2014 at 01:09 AM.
does this look like an ILI to you?
no, thats a jellybean.
"If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann
YOU CALL THAT AN INTP?
THIS IS AN INTP
you know, I know an ILI who smiles a bit like that.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
I would say that this supports my IEE hypothesis quite well. He does not talk, generally, in terms of empirical facts, but in terms of ideas, generalizations, concepts, and ethical relationships. The final message of what he writes is also clearly an ethical obligation. Furthermore, he has an idealistic approach and view of science. He does occasionally use empirical facts in his videos, but they are used in the service of concepts and ideas. He purposefully avoids details and exact figures. Most of what he says is figurative, imaginative, romanticized, and generalized. It lacks any of the frank bluntness of the Gamma NT. Kamajama may insist that they know of ILI who smile warmly like Sagan, but when his VI is brought to light with everything else we know about him, then it would be a hypothetical stretch. Moreover, it would be a conclusion that misses the more obvious possible conclusions. Delta NF most closely fits the data so far. Of the two, IEE appears to be the better fit.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
I'm starting to come around to the idea that Gamma NT would not work for Sagan. I think Logos's analysis is a fair assessment of Sagan's communication style.
INFj
9w1 sp/sx
he smoked weed everyday.
Take a look through his excerpt. It contains an emotional and ethical dimension.
* "On it everyone you love..."
* "The aggregate of our joy and suffering..."
* "every young couple in love..."
- really, the entire list of the first paragraph is meant to establish or trigger emotional connections with the audience -
* "Astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience."
* "it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to cherish the pale blue dot."
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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Last edited by mfckr; 12-29-2014 at 01:09 AM.
If you see things differently, then I am curious as to your own perspective on the matter. But this sort of non-response does not really invite discussion. I would suggest that you actually interpret the excerpt you posted in terms of Socionics instead of just posting it and declaring Gamma-NT as if it was self-evident. Until I am convinced otherwise, I am highly inclined towards my original hypothesis of IEE > EII.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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Last edited by mfckr; 12-29-2014 at 01:09 AM.
I am not entirely sure how the last paragraph acts as a strong counter-argument. Yes, I am sure that he is speaking about something he feels strongly about. But I believe that the manner in which he does this is more suggestive of Delta NF than Gamma NT or Alpha NT.
I have looked at the greater breadth of what he has said, and I watched each of those posted videos in addition to a few others. I can assure you that my judgment is not based on this excerpt alone. And there is nothing in this greater breadth that provides substantial support for him being a Gamma NT rather than a Delta NF. For even if we were to ignore which set of rational IE he values, one would still have to account for extraordinary prevalence of Ne in his communication. While you could peg this as being strong-subconscious, the almost thematic emphasis on conveying concepts and ideas through simplistic generalities suggests a strong conscious use of Ne. This by itself, narrows down the field of types to Alpha NTs and Delta NFs.
So I am curious as to why "This quote from him about Pale Blue Dot does make [you] think γ-NT..." You have yet to elaborate on this matter, which leaves me just as curious, if not more so, as to "how what you extracted from the excerpt meaningfully demonstrates him" as a Gamma NT.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
What bothers me is how it is possible to integral type things such as excerpts, quotes, buildings, etc.:
When is there enough information to draw an accurate conclusion? Do people tend to go beyond the excerpt to get answers that aren't possible (e.g., ILE > LII)? Are there other IMs in the excerpt, etc. that people aren't aware of? Of course, these issues can be applied to typing in general. I'm also not saying that what's going on here isn't feasible; there is clearly a pattern in the above excerpt. I just personally don't know how accurate one's reasoning is without some sort of framework...
Sorry to revive a ye old thread but I was especially interested in how other people would type Carl Sagan and I'm hecka surprised that no one has suggested IEI or EIE! His works were dominated by -synthesised warnings and predictions and he tried to steer the outside world away from these dangers by promoting a kind of global unity ( - note his constant use of the pronoun "we" instead of the more -valuing pronouns "I/you"). This theme plays itself out to at least a small degree in almost every single one of his works.
I've seen the entire Cosmos series many times and read some of his books. At least to me, it's rather obvious that he was IEE (Ne subtype). He was the modern version of Thomas Huxley. You're falling into the perpetual prejudice that just because someone is bright then he must be a logical type.
His narrative in Cosmos should be a pretty clear example of idealism: he was always trying to push an humanistic message.
Most ILEs are closet narcissists. When discussing when others they are usually far more concerned about building a positive image for themselves than really seeking out the truth. Sagan was pretty much unconcerned with fame and never feared sharing the spotlight with anyone else. This is pretty evident in his rebuttal to Velikovsky, whom he proved wrong but defended from other scientists who tried to silence him. This is a concern for justice even in "adversaries" that is often foreign to most NTs.
[] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
[] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
LEGEND. He seems to have this Ni gaze to me, the distant dreamy stare he also stikes me as more logical than ethical. Just as some say intelligence does not mean the exclusion of ethics so too does logic not always mean the exclusion of all feeling. The way he relates to these tings is often from a safe distance, I think he is logical, intuitive and introverted (not necessarily in that order). I'd be interested to see him interact with others though if anyone has a youtube link.
I don't think IEE is impossible though.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
His style of language was filled completely with humanistic positivism that is usually associated with (it is hard to see him being ILI), or at least some exuberant extrovert (I don't mean in terms of the Ronin dichotomies). I've always considered him a little OTT in his message (perhaps it was necessary for the time and culture he was in, but he was unnecessary flowery). It doesn't help that whenever I hear an interview of him it reminds me of Graham Chapman doing the "Christmas in Heaven" song.
My subjective opinion on Carl.
He was one of the greats, a man whose poetic narrations have inspired a generation to look out on the world with wonder and amazement. He popularized astronomy, biology, physics, and mathematics. He brought complex, wondrous discoveries to everyday people. Not only was he a great teacher, he was also a scientific innovator. He was a key member of the Nasa teams that built the Voyager missions, the first satellites to explore our solar system. It was Carl who designed the golden plaque mounted on the satellite: our first "hello" to another intelligence.
Carl Sagan is a personal hero of mine. His was a voice of reason, compassion and humour. He demanded Americans inform themselves and understand science, mathematics, ect. He was cognizant of and paid careful attention to peoples perceptions. He was an amazing orator. He possessed a inward sensitivity for the vicissitudes of human experience. He could connect the history, with the discoveries, with the humanity of the people that made them. His outward presence was immediate, you could not help but listen to him when he spoke. He was a great American. He was also a great person, right along side Aristotle, Plato and Galileo. Carl's work and his television programming has done more to motivate young minds to explore the world around them then anyone else. He was a man who brought together the stories and research of hundreds of scientist, artists, historians. He wanted to tell our story.
The last 150 years will become known as the golden age for Biology, where we went from not knowing the actual difference between a rock and a person and now we can manipulate the very genes of living organisms to make "the world in our own image". (Carl) It will also be the golden age for astronomy, as we discovered our place in the Universe and even the origins of all that exsists. We can peer backwards in time, with our "power telescopes that shine light from distance galaxies, illuminating our hearts" (Carl). It will be the time when we see "the pale blue dot as our only home" (Carl). Carl's television show in the 1980's, Cosmos a Space Time Odyssey had a goal for the general public to understand science and technology, so that people are empowered to make the proper decisions in our quickly changing world. He was against ignorance. He was scrupulous and exacting. "If we are not able to be skeptical of those in authority, then we are up for grabs for any charlatan or authority that comes along. People need to be educated" (Carl). He wanted knowledge to be shared generously for all people, regardless of social barriers. A pioneer, a visionary.......
I'm just going to throw this out there, as unpopular as it might seem: the Mentor, the EIE.
Last edited by wacey; 11-16-2014 at 04:48 AM.
sublime.
Last edited by wacey; 11-30-2015 at 06:20 PM.
I've read his book "Cosmos" at the age of 12 and it wasn't that difficult to read and understand for me.
* I'm a intellectual showoff now? Maybe? *
He did seem SLI but maybe LIE or perhaps LII.
I can see any NT type for him, Tigerfadder. Maybe there is a percieved misception in public that NT types have no emotions or ethical values.
I can ensure you that I have both of them.
This "Pale Blue Dot" we all living on is near and dear to me, either.
He sent the Golden Disk into space...
LIE
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@pinoline
Based on the book he is hard to type. I guess based on the TV series, either.
What do you want to know about the book? I still have a into german language translated copy of the book in my bookshelf.
Last edited by WinnieW; 10-05-2017 at 09:40 PM.