The philosophy of ESTjs and ISTps

[Rubicon]

You don't have to think about the way you say something to someone (whether it's possibly too harsh or w/e)... being that if you genuinely care for someone, that'll be evident no matter what you say.

[UDP]

Ideally, yeah. What I say shouldn't affect someone's relationship to me, and I can throw unfiltered and unaltered ideas and words, in pure content, and know they will be able to deal with it - without freaking out or questioning me as a person ... because they already know I'm a good person or trust me, etc.


Discussing information is free, easy, open, 'non-judged'. It's different from actions, however, in some sense.

But I know that in reality most people are not really compatible with what I'm saying, and in experience, it's relationship depth, and not socionics type, that ultimately allows for the kind of communication I want. Because with deep relations, I don't have to constantly guard myself against saying something that will simply tilt the other person the wrong way, or have to watch out for words they don't like, or put a lot of modifications on things (ideally).

[UDP]

You don't have to think about the way you say something to someone (whether it's possibly too harsh or w/e)... being that if you genuinely care for someone, that'll be evident no matter what you say.

The problem, of course, that accompanies what you say here and what I said here is that, quite simply, how things are said does have impact.

And no amount of preferences changes that. It's the way of communication. But yeah, sometimes I want to ignore it.

[Lobo]

You don't have to think about the way you say something to someone (whether it's possibly too harsh or w/e)... being that if you genuinely care for someone, that'll be evident no matter what you say.

That's a delta ST using an Fi copout, because they don't want to deal with Fe.

[leckysupport]

That's a delta ST using an Fi copout, because they don't want to deal with Fe.

Does this bother you?

[UDP]

That's a delta ST using an Fi copout, because they don't want to deal with Fe.

Yes, concisely and accurately put.

Does this bother you?

The answer is pretty much yes even if he or other EIIs don't say it. But Lobo probably will openly admit to it.

[Trevor]

You don't have to think about the way you say something to someone (whether it's possibly too harsh or w/e)... being that if you genuinely care for someone, that'll be evident no matter what you say.

Yup. My LSE father said "fuck you" to me 3 or 4 minutes ago. It's no big deal.

[Beautiful sky]

Yup. My LSE father said "fuck you" to me 3 or 4 minutes ago. It's no big deal.

Why?

You don't have to think about the way you say something to someone (whether it's possibly too harsh or w/e)... being that if you genuinely care for someone, that'll be evident no matter what you say.

Yeah, they want their words and actions to be independent of people's love and commitment to them. They want to say and get away with everything, but don't want their relationships to be cut because of their actions.

[Trevor]

Why?

He said, bring me xyz from the attic. I brought xyzs, but the bigger ones. He then said: "fuck you, not those, the smaller ones, in the bag!" "OK" I said and brought him the smaller ones.

[Beautiful sky]

He said, bring me xyz from the attic. I brought xyzs, but the bigger ones. He then said: "fuck you, not those, the smaller ones, in the bag!" "OK" I said and brought him the smaller ones.

Next time tell him that cursing at you is not a good thing. No, better yet, don't wait for the next time. Get him in a good moment then remaind him about the situation and then tell him that it was not good of him to say that and DO tell him that it hurt your emotions, because he shouldn't act like it's ok for him to say and do whatever he wants.

[Trevor]

Next time tell him that cursing at you is not a good thing.

You do not know our ways.

[Trevor]

..and DO tell him that it hurt your emotions.

I don't want to lie to him.

[silverchris9]

But I know that in reality most people are not really compatible with what I'm saying, and in experience, it's relationship depth, and not socionics type, that ultimately allows for the kind of communication I want. Because with deep relations, I don't have to constantly guard myself against saying something that will simply tilt the other person the wrong way, or have to watch out for words they don't like, or put a lot of modifications on things (ideally).

I think every type wants this. But Fi-valuers want it through Fi and being free from Fe (as much as is possible), and vice versa for Fe-valuers.

Not that I believe in maturity, because I'm Peter Pan and I think growing up can wait 'til I'm dead, but maturity has a lot to do with accepting the necessity of things you don't like. The socionics version of this is accepting that even though you don't like [insert IM here], it's a part of reality and you just have to deal sometimes/to some degree.

[Suz]

Next time tell him that cursing at you is not a good thing. No, better yet, don't wait for the next time. Get him in a good moment then remaind him about the situation and then tell him that it was not good of him to say that and DO tell him that it hurt your emotions, because he shouldn't act like it's ok for him to say and do whatever he wants.

Maritsa, I disagree with you.

I was going to say that tutu behaved with great respect towards his father, and I admire tutu for not criticising him and reacting the way he did (I probably would have cried or argued or something. . .shame on me).

[UDP]

I say "fuck you" to a friend of mine in humor, there is no emotional damage going on. Maybe that's what tutur was talking about.

.. but I don't think it's what the OP was talking about

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa, I disagree with you.

I was going to say that tutu behaved with great respect towards his father, and I admire tutu for not criticising him and reacting the way he did (I probably would have cried or argued or something. . .shame on me).

It doesn't matter the age of a person when it comes to morals of behavior towards other individuals, yes it does to customs and ways; but all people are one and should lead a responsible and considerate life, unless their mental capacity does not allow them to do so, then consideration should be given to that first.

I doubt the dad was humoring when he said FU to the son; that's just plain wrong.

[Rubicon]

Yup. My LSE father said "fuck you" to me 3 or 4 minutes ago. It's no big deal.

Yeah. It's just like "I love you".

[Lobo]

Does this bother you?

Yes it does, because it's an easy, yet probably unconscious/unintentional, way to manipulate Fi valuers who are often oblivious to someone's Fe-phobia. The worst thing you can do, at least to me (I suspect other Fi people are like this as well), is to bs using Fi, especially when I get to find out it was bs. It's just better to come out and explain the Fe issue, especially since deltas won't judge you for that.

[Lobo]

I have an SLI friend who is a master at using Fi bs to mask issues that he has when it comes to expressing genuine feelings. I notice it but don't say anything most of the time because I really don't care that much, but when shit hits the fan it's not nice. Delta NFs sometimes baby STs too much, and they end up sharing the fault imo.

[leckysupport]

Yes it does, because it's an easy, yet probably unconscious/unintentional, way to manipulate Fi valuers who are often oblivious to someone's Fe-phobia. The worst thing you can do, at least to me (I suspect other Fi people are like this as well), is to bs using Fi, especially when I get to find out it was bs. It's just better to come out and explain the Fe issue, especially since deltas won't judge you for that.

I have an SLI friend who is a master at using Fi bs to mask issues that he has when it comes to expressing genuine feelings. I notice it but don't say anything most of the time because I really don't care that much, but when shit hits the fan it's not nice. Delta NFs sometimes baby STs too much, and they end up sharing the fault imo.

Yeah, not really what the OP was talking about.

[Lobo]

Yeah, not really what the OP was talking about.

What do you mean? If that's the case, asking me if it bothered me isn't relevant to the OP.

[leckysupport]

What do you mean? If that's the case, asking me if it bothered me isn't relevant to the OP.

The OP was talking about LSEs having a philosophy of being harsh as long as it was seen as genuinely caring. You started talking about Delta STs ignoring Fe when discussing emotional issues leading on to them "manipulate Fi"/not fully opening up. Which isn't exactly the same thing.

I was asking you if what the OP described bothered you.

[krieger]

Yup. My LSE father said "fuck you" to me 3 or 4 minutes ago. It's no big deal.

Sounds like a Resolute type (Ni/Se values).

[Lobo]

The OP was talking about LSEs having a philosophy of being harsh as long as it was seen as genuinely caring. You started talking about Delta STs ignoring Fe when discussing emotional issues leading on to them "manipulate Fi"/not fully opening up. Which isn't exactly the same thing.

I was asking you if what the OP described bothered you.

I'm saying that the philosophy comes from not wanting to deal with Fe. To me it's justifying crudeness by saying that it's because "I genuinely care about you," as if it absolves yourself from the way you say it and possible emotional consequences that you can cause someone. It's using Fi to manipulate, and actually I've seen Fe egos use it too... It's the same as saying "no offense" before saying something, and just assuming that the person will not take offense by it, because you are just being "honest." It's bs, you just want to say whatever you want and have other people deal with filtering it. I bet I've done it before too, since it's such an easy copout to use and fall into, but to me the fact is that it's Fe laziness.

[silverchris9]

I'm saying that the philosophy comes from not wanting to deal with Fe. To me it's justifying crudeness by saying that it's because "I genuinely care about you," as if it absolves yourself from the way you say it and possible emotional consequences that you can cause someone. It's using Fi to manipulate, and actually I've seen Fe egos use it too... It's the same as saying "no offense" before saying something, and just assuming that the person will not take offense by it, because you are just being "honest." It's bs, you just want to say whatever you want and have other people deal with filtering it. I bet I've done it before too, since it's such an easy copout to use and fall into, but to me the fact is that it's Fe laziness.

Sounds like using Fi to not care about Fi, because "emotional consequences you can cause someone" is 100% Fi. I guess that's part of how EIIs take care of LSEs.

That said, I think Fe-valuers (when among other Fe-valuers) are more inclined to accept "unfiltered" speech (of course, the IEIs among them will always subtly filter their speech regardless).

[krieger]

I think there certainly is bluntness and harshness to ESTj behavior, but it is not characteristic of them to make pointed effort towards provoking a response or making an impact like there is in Se types. Hence why a "fuck you" statement sounds very anti-ESTj to me. There is just no rational need to use such a term except if provoking is the point of the action rather than a side effect of it.

[silverchris9]

I think there certainly is bluntness and harshness to ESTj behavior, but it is not characteristic of them to make pointed effort towards provoking a response or making an impact like there is in Se types. Hence why a "fuck you" statement sounds very anti-ESTj to me. There is just no rational need to use such a term except if provoking is the point of the action rather than a side effect of it.

Has to do with cultural context. If you're in a cultural context where saying fuck you is not that big of a deal (and there are plenty of them), saying that, especially in the context that tutururu posted, is completely consistent with ESTjs. Good point though on provocation being intentional vs. a side effect.