Integral Type of Japan (thread split)
Nah, this is exactly why Japan is ISTp... it's the Fe-PoLR. Delta can also be collectivist, in fact I think collectivism is more Aristocratic, socionically. You could say that the cultures of Ancient Japan like samurais etc are Beta ST, but you can say the same for pretty much any militant ancient cultures.Originally Posted by niffer
But anyway, a lot of the problems in Japan and East Asia have more to do with their histories, philosophies, politics, etc. than really anything else.
@Singularity Did you read anything else I said? Japan is NOT an Fe polr country. I agree with them being very Ip overall ... IEI actually if I had to give them a type.
@Bertrand @Wyrd Can you move your type discussion to outside of this thread...
Yes, and they were not really relevant to socionics. I think even the socionists tend to type Japan as SLI.
The only reason you gave it Beta was "tentacle stuff", which I don't think is really related to socionics, but if I had to say, the "weird stuff" in Japan is obviously more Ne, due to it's randomness and nonsensical nature (they have no "meaning"!).
Sure, I'd agree that the "war stuff" is Beta ST. I do think the much of Ancient Japan, and even now, was ruled by Beta STs. But the same could be said for pretty much any countries and cultures. It's just that the Beta STs tend to rule the top of power hierarchies. But the culture is still more Delta.
How can you say that Japan values Fe, and say they're "even more reserved in a way than Korea so they force themselves to "hold it in" more"? That's NOT Fe. That's pretty much the description of Fe-PoLR. The Japanese are rather skeptical of display of strong and dramatic emotions and expressions (outside of anime etc.). They compensate for this by having a myriad of social protocols and prescribed behaviors. The Japanese "politeness" is actually an obvious aspect of Fi, not Fe.
Is that so? Do you have a link?
No it wasn't. The entire explanation I gave was an statement of how ingrained Fe was in the culture, and you interpreted it as the opposite of what I was saying. I see the weird stuff as more Se than Ne because it's so vulgar. A lot of foreign nations find it downright offensive and disgusting. There's also the raunchy sex culture and the dual nature of timidity, passiveness, and reserve. And if you've watched any darker animes (I know you have), there's a clear Ni valuing aspect to how they think of things that's not as obviously present in the media of many other cultures.The only reason you gave it Beta was "tentacle stuff", which I don't think is really related to socionics, but if I had to say, the "weird stuff" in Japan is obviously more Ne, due to it's randomness and nonsensical nature (they have no "meaning"!).
There are definitely *some* Delta elements in it, as there are a mix of different elements in any country. But show me exactly what about it you have in mind when you say it's Delta here, besides that SLI idea of yours that was born out of a misinterpretation.Sure, I'd agree that the "war stuff" is Beta ST. I do think the much of Ancient Japan, and even now, was ruled by Beta STs. But the same could be said for pretty much any countries and cultures. It's just that the Beta STs tend to rule the top of power hierarchies. But the culture is still more Delta.
Politeness is a display of Fi, you say? Aren't you the person who complains all over the forum about how Betas are stereotyped as rude when they're actually really polite and harmonious in your opinion?How can you say that Japan values Fe, and say they're "even more reserved in a way than Korea so they force themselves to "hold it in" more"? That's NOT Fe. That's pretty much the description of Fe-PoLR. The Japanese are rather skeptical of display of strong and dramatic emotions and expressions (outside of anime etc.). They compensate for this by having a myriad of social protocols and prescribed behaviors. The Japanese "politeness" is actually an obvious aspect of Fi, not Fe.
"They compensate for this by having a myriad of social protocols and prescribed behaviors." Kindly explain to me why you think this is not Fe valuing. This is bs really and it's obvious to anyone reading this, "prescribed behaviours" socially is very characteristic of Fe, especially Beta Fe. I can't believe you've been on this forum since 2009 and you would say something as factually off as this after all this time. Anyway you're probably just railing at my ideas here because you're butthurt about our private convos rather than trying to be objective.
The *only* way that I could justify the typing of Japan as SLI would be because of its xenophobic history and wanting outsiders to be out. That behaviour of being mistrustful of outsiders who can't integrate into the culture could be justified as Delta Fe polr (but due to the nature of the strictness and it still being Fe valuing I would say LSI over SLI any day). But as for the culture itself beyond its immigration policies, accounting for how people are raised in their culture emotionally and psychologically, it's definitely Beta. I can say this as someone who has worked with around 1000 students and their families over there and staff, and watched them in the early childhood development process from under 1 year old to 6 years old and beyond.
Not relevant to socionics my ass.
Japan is used to illustrate E4 in enneagram quite often. E4 is Goethe's Werther. Goethe's Werther is Fe incarnate. Therefore, Japan at least values Fe, and I'd say more than 1D Fe too, which rules out LSI. They don't seem extraverted and flamboyant though, which rules out everything but IEI in Beta. Considering Japan has this sort of melancholic-ego Victim love of transience and brokenness (which anyone with more of an acquaintance with Japanese culture than "anime and tentacle porn lol!" should have), IEI fits much better than SEI, never mind that the elaborate hierarchical system is very Aristocratic.
I used to think japan was an IEI-Ni country, but then I learned more about the types, and came to the conclusion that it's an SLI-Si country. An IEI-Ni country could be South Korea.
I used to think Japan was an SLI country. Then I lived and worked there, got a clue and got rid of my shallow stereotypes of the country, and learned more about the types, and came to the conclusion that it's an IEI country.
An SLI country could be South Korea, as @LuckyOne who has an insider understanding already deconstructed how South Korea is Delta.
Keep in mind that super-egos are the same thing on some meta level.
I thought Japan was Alpha... somewhat cheery and whacky and Fe and stuff, but then it's pretty clear now that it's SLI.
Like this, from Stratiyevskaya's description of SLI:
(A model of SLI type of aesthetics is most accurately represented by the aesthetic traditions of Japan: the combination of harmony and functionality of simple, natural forms.)
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...Stratiyevskaya
You said collectivism = Fe, therefore Japan must be Fe. I don't necessarily agree that collectivism = Fe, because I don't think that Alphas are very collectivists, especially the Alpha NTs who are very individualistic. Collectivism is more Aristocracy, since Deltas can also be collectivists. Besides, it has more to do with histories and philosophies; Eastern philosophies like Buddhism and Confucianism are more collectivist than most Western philosophies, which are more individualist.
Just because it's weird and vulgar, doesn't mean it's Se. Sex in Japan isn't "in your face" or "raunchy" like in America, it's more hidden from the public, people never really talk about sex in public, it's a taboo which is why it gets so "dark" and weird in the first place. Sex appeal in Japan isn't really about personal display of power, where the men are more stylish than dominant, and women are just kind of cutesy. That's more Si/Ne, stereotypically.
Finding it offensive and disgusting is relative and subjective. The countries that find it offensive are more the Western countries with puritanical values. The reason why it got so "weird", is probably because of Japan's long history of isolationalism, the fact that it was cut off from the rest of the world for so long, and the fact that historically, Japan has never really had their own moral religions and philosophies, mostly due to political reasons. Japan is largely, a philosophically amoral country.
People also find Kpop videos so "weird" and "whacky", because it seems to make no sense, things just happen for no reason and there's no logical consistency. Again, this is probably because neither Japan nor Korea never really had their own consistent philosophies or intellectual systems. "Logic" as a concept is also not very valued in Asia in general like in the West. You could say that Asia is more Fi than Ti.
Anime sort of started as more of a counter-culture movement. Anime is largely a subculture that exists within Japan that in no way reflects the "real life" or the "real people" in Japan, even though it's gaining more social acceptance and popularity lately. Anime was definitely not socially acceptable then, and in some ways it still isn't; the term "otaku" has a negative connotation in Japan unlike in the West. I would say that anime is more like a Beta/Alpha "rebellion" against the norms of the society. Saying that anime describes Japan is like saying Hollywood describes America, which means that America must be a very liberal and left-wing country, which it is not.
Well first of all, the "ideal man" or the "stereotypical man" in Japan is someone who is stoic, unemotional and only says a few words, although that seems to be changing into EII these days. But that is pretty much the archetype of SLIs. Even the "stereotypical samurai" was like that: someone who was stoic, pragmatic, unemotional and taciturn. Japan is not a country that is typically comfortable with emotions; they are uneasy with them and are quite embarrassed by their own expressions. "I love you" is a phrase that is hardly ever uttered, if at all. People in China and even Koreans tend to think that the Japanese are very cold and unemotional. All this is Fe-PoLR.
The "workaholic" culture is obviously Te. At work, there are many rules and orders to follow, people are obsessed with following proper procedures, doing things in the "right" way, getting every facts and figures correct, they are obsessive with minute and small details, doing a lot of paperworks, there is a lot of bureaucracy, people stubbornly hold on to reliable but outdated technologies like the FAX machines., people are obsessed with producing high-quality and durable products. All Te stuff, especially Delta Te.
There is also a problem of leadership in Japan, which goes against Se. There are typically no clear signs of leadership in organizations or in politics, which tend to create many problems when it comes to assigning responsibilities to failures and mistakes. There is such a leadership problem in Japan that nobody ends up taking responsibility for anything, it becomes "everybody's problems" and the whole problem seems to scatter and peter out. People in general are also skeptical of "strong leaders", and they tend to take them down before they gain too much power or popularity. People in general prefer a more decentralized approach, where decisions are made by "everyone agreeing on the issue", which often means forced participation and compliance more often than not, because there's no such thing as a complete and total consensus. This is standard Delta stuff, and it goes against Se obviously.
The culture is also very Si, especially Delta Si. The food culture is huge in Japan; so much so that it's what anyone ever does. It seems like people mainly do two things in Japan "for fun": eat good food, or go to a karaoke. Or they might travel to some places for sightseeing. Culturally, Japan seems to have had a strong connection to nature, the seasons, etc. which seems Delta.
Russia is an IEI country, and Japan and Russia are nothing alike. Russia values things like poetry, expressions of deep sentiments, elegant aesthetics, richness in arts and literature. Japan is more drawn to simplicity; expression of simple and straightforward emotions and sentiments, not complex emotions, the simple life, nature. There is often a fetishism of environmentalism and living a simple and easy life. "The simple man" seems to be the ideal person in Japan.
Japan is a highly conservative country that resists change, and if change ever occurs, then it's in a painfully slow way. Japan is a country that highly values order and stability.
Socionically, I would say that yes, politeness is Fi. It's the Fi that tells people how to behave and what to do in certain situations. That's why the Fi-leads are always telling people what to do and what not to do, like "don't do this, don't do that".
Fe is more "ad-hoc", it adjusts its own behavior more spontaneously, based on what the other person is feeling at the moment.
Eat it
@Singularity all of the things you described which I haven't addressed directly could be Beta just as easily as Delta. And I mean you even prefaced your post with you thinking they were Alpha at first which is basically lighting your own argument for SLI on fire from the get-go, nevertheless without bothering to address all of your points I'll show you a bit of what I mean:
For example this,
"There is also a problem of leadership in Japan, which goes against Se. There are typically no clear signs of leadership in organizations or in politics, which tend to create many problems when it comes to assigning responsibilities to failures and mistakes. There is such a leadership problem in Japan that nobody ends up taking responsibility for anything, it becomes "everybody's problems" and the whole problem seems to scatter and peter out. People in general are also skeptical of "strong leaders", and they tend to take them down before they gain too much power or popularity."
could be Te polr just as easily as Se devaluing. In any case it certainly doesn't seem like an issue a supposed Te ego like SLI would face.
"Finding it offensive and disgusting is relative and subjective. The countries that find it offensive are more the Western countries with puritanical values."
LOL. So you think puritanical values are more Se than Si? Did you put this in your response to ruin yourself on purpose?
"although that seems to be changing into EII these days"
So you're aware that it's now like an NF. By the way, INFx can also be stoic and relatively inexpressive. Also very good at CONTROLLING THEIR EXPRESSION, because Fe is EGO (or Id) not POLR. The ideal man is more or less an ST in ANY culture, but we are talking about Japan's persona as a nation, which compared to other countries, is indisputably feminine.
"Socionically, I would say that yes, politeness is Fi. It's the Fi that tells people how to behave and what to do in certain situations. That's why the Fi-leads are always telling people what to do and what not to do, like "don't do this, don't do that".
Fe is more "ad-hoc", it adjusts its own behavior more spontaneously, based on what the other person is feeling at the moment."
And as for this, how this manifests in Japanese culture is both really, in other words it's too ambiguous to fit either the Fe valuing or the Fi valuing manifestations under your POV. Everybody is told "don't do this, don't do that" at some point during their socialization, but also Japanese people are notoriously famous for being able to sense the mood and emotional atmosphere and adjust their own behaviour--it's this responsiveness and pliancy that makes them so famous worldwide for their politeness, and that's certainly not Fe polr by any means.
"Like this, from Stratiyevskaya's description of SLI:
(A model of SLI type of aesthetics is most accurately represented by the aesthetic traditions of Japan: the combination of harmony and functionality of simple, natural forms.)
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...Stratiyevskaya"
"The culture is also very Si, especially Delta Si. The food culture is huge in Japan; so much so that it's what anyone ever does. It seems like people mainly do two things in Japan "for fun": eat good food, or go to a karaoke. Or they might travel to some places for sightseeing. Culturally, Japan seems to have had a strong connection to nature, the seasons, etc. which seems Delta."
The quote from Strati that you linked says that Japan exhibits an SLI type of aesthetics. She did not say definitively that she sees Japan as an SLI country. Do you know what other types have SLI Si along with SLI in the socion, if you subscribe to the idea of functions signs? ESI. SEE. LIE. EII. And please don't use the idea of people liking traveling and sightseeing in their country as proof that a country is Si valuing; there is no country I can think of that isn't like this. As I already said (and actually others in this thread have noted), there's of course a mix of different quadra values in any country, that can be exhibited in different aspects of its culture.
And did you read anything that @Wyrd said about E4 and Japan, or is that invalid and not socionics related enough for you either? I guess the only "proof" you were able to come up with was Strati's offhand remark in her SLI description, and I do not think anybody would assume she's exactly a culture-savvy world travel connoisseur.
I thought Japan was Alpha... somewhat cheery and whacky and Fe and stuff, but then it's pretty clear now that it's SLI.
It is only clear that it's that to you because you're looking up your own ass. If you want to continue this discussion do it with me in private. This is really off topic for this thread and dragging on too much, and I am really not sure why you're so invested in arguing this with me anyway. Just another typical Te polr being afraid of being made to look stupid I guess, and being willing to flounder around like a fool trying to support their Ti ideas to the death.
**P.S. , it's "wacky", NOT "whacky"... you said this multiple times in your post and it pissed me off. You should thank me for this later since your English skill is important for your livelihood apparently.
Last edited by niffer; 03-18-2017 at 10:33 AM.
those cultures that are most defined would go towards the later quadras (gamma or delta), those in most motion of change would be alpha or beta, as rule of thumb!
Didn't I tell you to stop bothering me here? That might be true on some level since Alpha/Beta are at the beginning or test phases of the socion, but Gulenko has described power in the socion as being mostly concentrated and eternally oscillating between Beta and Gamma. You could think of Beta and Gamma as being at the centre of the yin/yang circle, with Alpha and Delta being at the outskirts. E.g. a country that could fit your concept would be China with its 4000 year history, which is definitely Gamma/Delta (probably LSE actually).
Anyway, this discussion needs to end with this. Start another thread if you want to keep talking about this topic.
lol niffer, there's really no point in arguing with you... Btw I'm not making this personal, so there's no need for you to make it personal. I just wanted to point it out because I've been saying the same thing in the other threads. Check it out on Delta section.
Not really since China is not at all what it was a few hundreds years ago, maybe at some outskirts of it but it kind of have changed.
Okay you SLE :/
This is NOT what I meant when I said I was waiting for my IEI harem to form in my other post.
@Tigerfadder I am actually Chinese and I can tell you know nothing about this issue. Just get out.
Now you know you need to request to move them to the Beta section; you should thank me. And thanks for the compliment.
Why would I move it to the Beta section? I've typed them as Delta. You should read the Delta Quadra Complex because it matches perfectly. And I've never complimented you.
" there's really no point in arguing with you"Why would I move it to the Beta section? I've typed them as Delta. You should read the Delta Quadra Complex because it matches perfectly. And I've never complimented you
This is the nicest thing you've ever said to me.
And you should read my ass. Message me when they've found a cure for myopia and you're on something for it.
This comes off as basically saying "everything is about socionics, unless it isn't", which is pretty much a good way to argue for whatever you want, and invalidates the point of the discussion in the first place. People like Gulenko and Stratiyevskaya would attribute those kinds of philosophies to certain types, never mind that talking about "Eastern philosophies" as if they were all the same is about as useful as talking about "Western philosophies" as if Plato, Thomas Aquinas, Schopenhauer, John Locke, and William James had more similarities than differences just due to the hemisphere they come from (grouping "Eastern philosophies" all together is somewhat frequent, but I consider it more or less a form of exoticism, and, essentially, imperialism, ignoring the fact that, say, German Idealism and many Indian philosophies have more in common than most Indian philosophies and Confucianism if you look at the actual premises of the systems).
Japan =/= Nintendo. Nintendo is more or less the dictionary definition of Alpha, but every culture has a mix of quadras.I thought Japan was Alpha... somewhat cheery and whacky and Fe and stuff, but then it's pretty clear now that it's SLI.
@Wyrd We all know that Western societies tend to be more individualist in general, and Eastern societies tend to be more collectivist in general, and their philosophies and systems of thoughts more or less reflect that idea *in general*. Sure there are some differences, but I'm speaking in generalities. I'm not attributing collectivism to anything Socionics, because I wasn't aware that collectivism was related to anything Socionically speaking, and if it is then you should point me the source. I already said that if I were to attribute it, then it would be more Aristocracy, not Fe, since Alphas are more individualists than collectivists.
I didn't even say anything about Nintendo.
There's no reason it can't be attributable to both aristocracy and Fe. And what quadra fits both of those descriptors? Beta, oopsies.
How do you define individualism and collectivism? Feudal Europe is quite a bit more collectivist than the K-Pop industry by any definition I can think of. "Individualist" and "collectivist" are so ill-defined in general. It usually goes like this: "Eastern philosophies are collectivist!" "What do you mean by collectivist?" "I mean like an Eastern philosophy!" To which I simply want to respond "..." I've read books and articles that say "Europeans are more collectivist than Americans" and it pretty much defines it like socionics Aristocracy, with a focus on relations and hierarchy, but not negating the individual as an entity. Italian fascism (and European fascism in general, as well as certain kinds of socialism and communism) is pretty comparable to Confucian role ethics in terms of completely negating the individual as an entity (and I'm tempted to call fascism European role ethics), but neither Confucianism nor fascism are really representative of Eastern or Western philosophy as a whole.
Also, cheery and wacky Japan pretty much is just Nintendo, and maybe some of the exported animes that kids like to watch like Avatar and Naruto to some extent (but not as much as Nintendo).
Last edited by Pallas; 03-18-2017 at 08:55 PM.
Cultures are typically divided into two categories: collectivist and individualist. Individualist cultures, such as those of the United States and Western Europe, emphasize personal achievement regardless of the expense of group goals, resulting in a strong sense of competition. Collectivist cultures, such as those of China, Korea, and Japan, emphasize family and work group goals above individual needs or desires.
Traits of Collectivism
- Each person is encouraged to be an active player in society, to do what is best for society as a whole rather than themselves.
- The rights of families, communities, and the collective supersede those of the individual.
- Rules promote unity, brotherhood, and selflessness.
- Working with others and cooperating is the norm; everyone supports each other.
- as a community, family or nation more than as an individual
- strong cohesive group
Traits of Individualism
- "I" identity.
- Promotes individual goals, initiative and achievement.
- Individual rights are seen as being the most important. Rules attempt to ensure self-importance and individualism.
- Independence is valued; there is much less of a drive to help other citizens or communities than in collectivism.
- Relying or being dependent on others is frequently seen as shameful.
- People are encouraged to do things on their own; to rely on themselves
- people strive for their own successes
The high side of this dimension, called individualism, can be defined as a preference for a loosely-knit social framework in which individuals are expected to take care of only themselves and their immediate families. Its opposite, collectivism, represents a preference for a tightly-knit framework in society in which individuals can expect their relatives or members of a particular in-group to look after them in exchange for unquestioning loyalty. A society's position on this dimension is reflected in whether people’s self-image is defined in terms of “I” or “we.”
https://geert-hofstede.com/countries.html
@Singularity The two definitions you gave are pretty good descriptions of China and America, respectively, but individualism and collectivism are seldom ideals in themselves. I mean, is the Czech Republic (which is a culture I know a bit about that's fairly close to the middle of the scale) just a culture that can't decide if they favor "I" or "we"? I wouldn't say so, since based on what I know about the Czech Republic, their ideals are based on something else entirely, and whether they favor "I" or "we" is more circumstantial and chosen to fit those other ideals. On the other hand America holds individualism as an ideal and China holds collectivism as an ideal. Japan is much closer to the Czech Republic on that list than it is to China, numerically speaking, so while they're obviously more collectivist, I wouldn't say it can be equated to Chinese collectivism. @Singularity The two definitions you gave are pretty good descriptions of China and America, respectively, but individualism and collectivism are seldom ideals in themselves. I mean, is the Czech Republic (which is a culture I know a bit about that's fairly close to the middle of the scale) just a culture that can't decide if they favor "I" or "we"? I wouldn't say so, since based on what I know about the Czech Republic, their ideals are based on something else entirely, and whether they favor "I" or "we" is more circumstantial and chosen to fit those other ideals. On the other hand America holds individualism as an ideal and China holds collectivism as an ideal. Japan is numerically much closer to the Czech Republic (58 - 46 = 12) than to China (46 - 20 = 26) so I'd say Japanese collectivism is the result of other ideals.
Gulenko types Japan as an LSI culture and he now describes that type as "judiscious". Your bias and prejudice is showing when you relegate benign traits "Si", and of course (assuming you also see Ne as creative is sort of distorts your understanding of real individuals)
don't ... stop ... don't stop, you guys...
Where does he type that? Judicious is Si, so maybe you mistook it for SLI?
And when did I type benign traits as Si?
Btw, how Gulenko described the Delta quadra in the "The Clock of the Socion" is pretty much how you would describe Japan:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...Quadra_-_Delta
Workaholism, death by overwork, and declining population are prevalent problems of Japan. I already mentioned the decentralization.LSE, the Administrator, is the type that will turn over management in entire world by making it more decentralized. In Europe this has already happened, but in Ukraine and Russia we're far from it because everyone wants to keep power in center, nobody will willingly hand it over to the regions. We still have a long road to travel until reaching fourth quadra in administrative sense. For LSE, work brings profits and profits accumulate. Even though he is a workaholic, clear, organized rhythm, in the end he will ask himself: for what have I been preserving this wealth? At the end of life, travel, see the world, and then what? There are few children born in the fourth quadra, nobody to pass the wealth to. Thus charity work begins. In this quadra there are a lot of problems due to sense of uselessness - I have worked and worked, but for what?
There are full of novelties and random stuff in product marketing that just comes and goes, as if the companies are just creating things out of boredom - which is how you get the "whacky" stuff from Japan.IEE, the Advisor, is the implementer of fourth quadra. He evokes interest, interest turns into excitement. But IEE is not ESE, the Enthusiast. In this quadra this excitement will not last long, even socionics as a novelty does not last with them.
There are a lot of "every day local niceties" in Japan, where people do the "right thing" for no other reason than that it's simply what you're ought to do. However, it lacks in things like charities and helping people in needs on a more global scale.Then comes EII, the Humanist, who brings general human values that have always been and will be: kindness, and not the kind where you help black people in Africa, but directly help you neighbor or your friend and keep quiet about it. People of this type do not like telling about the good that they do, they feel ashamed of it. True kindness is the kind where you do not speak of it - this is proper upbringing, ideology, duty because in civilized society sense of duty is always valued.
Japan is known for improving and perfecting of products and technologies that already exist. Technically things are more convenient, but it's lacking in drive and dynamism of the past, and people are falling into apathy and dullness, which might have more to do with economic problems than anything.Next comes SLI, the Master - this is convenience, technological zenith. In this quadra, it has all been worked out already, the skill is perfected - there's nothing further for technology. There is a lot of leisure time, the city is abandoned to spend time in the country. Society starts to disintegrate, return to nature comes into effect. Apathy. Everyone is asleep. A dull moment in this world. SLI sees: although I'm well, live out in nature, breathe fresh air, but there is no emotion, no enthusiasm, maximum efficiency has been reached. All results have been achieved - this is the end socion. What remains is to go back where we came from.
You don't need to live there to get a gist of the country. I have watched many documentaries and japanese made films and anime, and it just seems delta to me. What you perceive as Fe is actually Fi. Japan has a glaring Fe-PoLR. Did you go to one of those restarants where people sit facing a wall and they don't talk to anybody while eating? Isn't that Fe PoRL to the max? Singularity has made a very thorough analysis and explained it better than I ever could.
More like thoroughly shit
I don't think you can compare simply "getting a gist of the country" through media produced by foreign media channels, to having an in depth understanding PLUS personal first hand experience. A lot of the time things are NOT as they seem from afar in a way that you wouldn't see unless you're there up close and personal. For god's sake I'm also an Asian and have multicultural experience in the first place, have a quite in depth understanding of the language and customs and may become a citizen there in the future. I even mentioned that I thought Japan would be SLI too before I went there. AND THEN MY OPINION CHANGED when I was faced with REALITY.
I'm guessing you didn't read anyone else's responses at all either, where I and others refuted this Fe polr idea from multiple different angles. Or what's just as likely is that it didn't register in your head.
And you and him are still going at it like bees hitting the inside of a window pane, saying the exact same things over and over again. Brilliant!
Last edited by niffer; 03-19-2017 at 01:18 AM.
@mclane @Singularity
Let's put it this way: if Japan was a fucking SLI country, I would not be going back there.
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
Except in the possibility that your understanding is skewed and you have everything backwards. But don't worry, I won't insult your capabilities
No, actually my capabilities have nothing to do with that in the case that it's true, because SLIs are gross.Except in the possibility that your understanding is skewed and you have everything backwards. But don't worry, I won't insult your capabilities
Viktor types America as LIE and Japan as LSI. As for judicious "LSI" you only have to look at his articles justifying the energy model. One thing that's key to look at is how he's replaced judicious and decisive with centralists and peripheral.
Typing Countries' cultures by Gulenko
http://socioniks.net/biblioteka/2str...a_japonia.html
Peripherals & Central
http://socioniks.net/biblioteka/7/centr_perif.html
That's very interesting. I'd heard from someone before that some socionics author considered Japan to be LSI. On an administrative level, I completely agree with Gulenko's breakdown. It's a huge bureaucratic mess.
I don't see where he explicitly assigns "judicious" to this though. This seems like something you've extrapolated on your own if I'm not mistaken.
So combining "judicious" and "LSI", I could see how the resulting creature could be either "IEI" or "SLI". I'm inclined to choose IEI for all the reasons I've already stated--matching quadra values, TLDR.
I really appreciate your contribution. Thanks.
Hmm, so these are the reason why he thinks it's LSI:
I can kind of understand why he thinks so, since Japan is such a bureaucracy-led country, and much of the bureaucracy or how its run is probably LSI. I don't disagree that the whole thing and how it operates is very LSI.
But I think what he ignores or doesn't see is that the much of the government and the bureaucracy are very different from the actual "culture" or the "people" of Japan, the bureaucratic "system" imposes its own will on the people in the way that the people do not necessarily wish to be imposed upon. This is basically how Japan entered the war, even though it had been disastrous for them as well as for much of Asia. And the entire bureaucratic system had not been completely revamped since the pre-1945 days, much of the system had been kept intact (which is why the Japanese education system, as well as the corporations that the bureaucracy has control over, have militaristic undertones). This goes in line with how much of feudal Japan were ruled by Beta STs, and even after the "revolution" (which was more of a coup), the LSI mentality still managed to hold the reign. A lot of the things however, are probably more complex than what mere Socionics analysis can provide.
Then they got bombed and became America's bitch. IEI being supervised by an LIE. Japan's leaders before were oppressive and scary, but America was at least able to help it solve its Te problems better.
The fact is they don't really know how to function without American intervention and those over-rigid LSI structures from before. But they're not doing so well with it now either.
What? Japan has a demographics problem, but otherwise, they are doing fine.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...japans-economy
The United States derives huge benefits from having the world's reserve currency, but Japan derives huge benefits from having access to US markets and from not having to spend money on military hardware that produces very few benefits.
Let's say you have $9 million. You can buy one Abrams tank which will cost even more to be fed and housed, or a very nice multi-unit apartment building, or educate 40 doctors, or invest it in the stock market. Which choice will make you better off? Japan can focus on the last three choices.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-20-2017 at 03:12 AM.
I was specifically referring to the bureaucratic structures. They are kind of archaic and make adapting difficult. They are doing ok now but won't be doing ok forever.
Yes, the very things which enable them to prosper (xenophobia, zero immigration, rigid bureaucracy) contain the seeds of decline, because they will have trouble innovating if they don't accept input from every source. This is above and beyond the natural resource and pollution limitations that every country is coming up against.
On the other hand, it seems that rigid, authoritarian countries are better able to weather difficult times than democracies, which are very short-sighted and which refuse to make the hard decisions about what to do when the globe is polluted and there are increasing numbers of mouths to feed.
http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/...and-stoic.html
Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-20-2017 at 03:32 AM.
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