maritsa as ESI

[ashlesha]

ok its a popular thing now for delta NFs to call maritsa ESI now because apparently her intelligence level renders her Ne polr.

i am making this thread for the purpose of catharsis since it irritates me and perhaps limiting it to one space.

@anndelise
@Agarina
@WorkaholicsAnon
@Ver
@Kim

make your cases etc etc

[Beautiful sky]

I am reporting this thread because it's another attack on me. If I wanted a type me thread I would have opened up one myself; it doesn't matter how people feel about my type. I am what I am.

[JWC3]

ESI? Hadn't thought about it much. Her grandiose entrance into the forum I would think is completely out of character for an ESI.

To be honest though I don't think this phenomena is too unheard of. People on this forum who have self-typed incorrectly often (but not always and to varying degrees) sort of begin to act more and more like the type they think they are over time. It gets harder to see them as the type they actually are but there are occasional times where they break character so to speak if you pay attention. Hell I used to act in a somewhat stereotypical SLE fashion back when I thought I was. It's just part of the delusion this theory comes with *shrugs*

[Slacker]

I am reporting this thread because it's another attack on me. If I wanted a type me thread I would have opened up one myself; You don't matter to my self typing.

So is it also an attack when you type people something other than they type themselves?

[Beautiful sky]

So is it also an attack when you type people something other than they type themselves?

That's in a specific thread where everyone else is invited to do what I do; it's not in one thread that's only about me.

[Slacker]

I think there have probably been a trillion or so threads where people have questioned the types of other people. Although in this case, Kassie seems clearly to be saying that she thinks people who think you are ESI are mistaken, so you're confused about the purpose of this thread.

[ashlesha]

I am reporting this thread because it's another attack on me. If I wanted a type me thread I would have opened up one myself; it doesn't matter how people feel about my type. I am what I am.

thats fine, i don't blame you, but ftr in my eyes its not so much about you as about using you as a case study. i personally don't care what you self-type.

[Slacker]

She baits everyone else with futile arguments, but all of a sudden when anyone baits her with a futile argument, the calvary comes out again.

[Trevor]

ESI? Hadn't thought about it much. Her grandiose entrance into the forum I would think is completely out of character for an ESI.

Good point.

[Beautiful sky]

I think there have probably been a trillion or so threads where people have questioned the types of other people. Although in this case, Kassie seems clearly to be saying that she thinks people who think you are ESI are mistaken, so you're confused about the purpose of this thread.

By inviting people to voice their opinions? I'm with my dual who will give you and everyone a million examples of why I am not attuned to the sensory environment around me; an ESI who isn't a clean freak (to the point of sanitary cleanliness), an ESI who doesn't tote her kids to church every sunday, an ESI who doesn't demand tradition down their kids throat? how many fucking reasons and reasons do people need to understand basics of this shit?

[ashlesha]

She baits everyone else with futile arguments, but all of a sudden when anyone baits her with a futile argument, the calvary comes out again.

nah ashton is right, i want to hear from the people i mentioned. more back-and-forth with maritsa would kind of ruin my thread, bleh

[Slacker]

I've never said I thought you were ESI. Kassie has never said she thought you were ESI and seems to be saying otherwise. It's your martyr complex I don't like. You go after others, you aggressively re-type others, but anyone questions your type and it's an attack worthy of a thread being closed.

[Beautiful sky]

thats fine, i don't blame you, but ftr in my eyes its not so much about you as about using you as a case study. i personally don't care what you self-type.

Do me a favor and use someone else. Any case study that you have against me can be either observed indirectly, by reactions or relations with others or by direct interviews/questions.

[Slacker]

nah ashton is right, i want to hear from the people i mentioned. more back-and-forth with maritsa would kind of ruin my thread, bleh

Ok, sorry, I'm out of here anyway. Have fun everyone.

[aixelsyd]

The thing is, Maritsa, do you care to know why those users mentioned in the OP think you are ESI? Since it pertains to yourself, anyways,as you said. Well, maybe one should be asking me why I would assume you would at all care. Funny.

Also, I feel like taking this post as an opportunity to state that I think people put too much weight in people's types without putting equal or more weight in a person to where there's a drive to presumptuously personalize someone who is typed as their identical, dual, or quadra member as if, aside from being of the same species, some relation has been established under some theoretical terms that merits being personalized. Having said that, Maritsa being a fellow Gamma-tard is fine by me, though since I even posted, I also feel compelled to state I hold no disagreement with the EII self-typing.

ESI? Hadn't thought about it much. Her grandiose entrance into the forum I would think is completely out of character for an ESI.

To be honest though I don't think this phenomena is too unheard of. People on this forum who have self-typed incorrectly often (but not always and to varying degrees) sort of begin to act more and more like the type they think they are over time. It gets harder to see them as the type they actually are but there are occasional times where they break character so to speak if you pay attention. Hell I used to act in a somewhat stereotypical SLE fashion back when I thought I was. It's just part of the delusion this theory comes with *shrugs*

Very true, and in the same breath, so to speak, from what I wrote above, I sometimes find the similarity in how we post to be eerie at times...not that that is a bad thing. Heh.

[Beautiful sky]

I've never said I thought you were ESI. Kassie has never said she thought you were ESI and seems to be saying otherwise. It's your martyr complex I don't like. You go after others, you aggressively re-type others, but anyone questions your type and it's an attack worthy of a thread being closed.

I give reasons and examples of why I'm not a certain type when attacked; people call me a negativist and I give them examples of the counter and they still can't fucking understand shit. Neither can you by the way.

[ashlesha]

Also, I feel like taking this post as an opportunity to state that I think people put too much weight in people's types without putting equal or more weight in a person to where there's a drive to presumptuously personalize someone who is typed as their identical, dual, or quadra member as if, aside from being of the same species, some relation has been established under some theoretical terms that merits being personalized.

i'm not sure what you mean by this but i don't even have strong feelings about maritsa. i'm only bothered by the reasoning for her being ESI which is usually along the lines of "she's too dumb and rigid to have Ne."

[JWC3]

"she's too dumb and rigid to have Ne."

LIKE ME! I don't have any Ne and I'm super dumb and rigid

[aixelsyd]

i'm not sure what you mean by this but i don't even have strong feelings about maritsa. i'm only bothered by the reasoning for her being ESI which is usually along the lines of "she's too dumb and rigid to have Ne."

I'll elaborate. The first part is self-explanatory, however, when someone types as being of say the same quadra, there seems to be a mentality to immediately think that this person has a connection to oneself when really there isn't. But if someone seems different, on the surface, or comes off disagreeable, there's a tendency to want to distance oneself from that person and one common way of doing so is to assign them a different type or quadra.

But while these mental moves are rationalized, I suspect it's done because of the bias held that this person must have this invisible connection, in an Fi-esque way, due to socionics, that isn't really there. The potential is there to establish a connection, but being 'related' in terms of socionics doesn't mean that that will be, hence why when a person begins self-typing as an identical or dual type, some get excited and become super welcoming from the start even though no real relationship has been established prior, however the potential is there and I suppose that is what causes that excitement. But really, quadra member or not, it doesn't mean you'll even like them or agree with them.

Of course I am/have been guilty of this to certain degrees (but I like to let people grown on me, period, even if they are a 'good' relation type). It also goes to roughly what Ashton said about assigning negative qualities to IMs. One might type herself as Si ego because she considers herself peaceful or another may hold a negative attitude of Si as indicating laziness. And with Ne, some might think this means being open to the possibilities, accepting of novelty (guess what, I am like that because I am a highly creative individual with highly creative thinking) but others might see Ne in a negative light because it means, to them, being negligent of the moment, of the immediate environment, and as someone who has their concrete life in chaos (this is a negative bias I hold in moments of annoyance that isn't justified but it happens when I see how it relates to this theory when it applies IRL).

Having said all of that, if you imagined that I was alluding to yourself in my post, then that was a misunderstanding as I made it a point not to bring you into my post because I didn't feel a reason for doing so and since you were already getting flack for starting the topic, which is whatever, but I wanted to not draw attention to you in the case it would be negative.

I also don't imagine my post clarified greatly, but it may have taken a minute or so of your time to read. Hope it wasn't an utter waste.

[anndelise]

I don't believe that Maritsa's "intelligence level renders her Ne polr".

Regardless of her intelligence level, she completely rejects the Ne of self-typed Delta NFs, and even goes so far as interprets the Ne these Delta NFs show as imposing a will on her...simply because they are trying to show her other ways that the info could be interpreted. If the Delta NF doesn't draw HER conclusions, then she claims that they have poor Ne. She,s even complained about Delta NFs not drawing conclusions, and for "mulling over endless nonsensical possibilities".

She acknowledges that interacting with self-typed Delta NFs are uncomfortable relationships for her. She interprets their displays of Ne as "knocking her"..."which is the same as imposing [their] will on [her]"... and that the Ne efforts of Delta NFs hurts her feelings. Yet...she considers the Ne from self-typed ENTps as mirroring hers.

She's much quicker to jump to conclusions than a Delta Ne ego would, and openly claims that once she makes a decision or draws a conclusion that she won't Let it change. She also has no problem expressing it all over the forum, which is generally unlike INFj. Radio might express himself sometimes, but he generally does so in an objective sort of way, and without the emotional tantrums and turmoils that Maritsa displays.

She openly admits that she has an agenda and that nothing will stop her from pursuing it. If this agenda was to help innocents or such, then that would be admirable. But instead of helping people, she puts them down if they don't conform to her personal wants/thoughts, and she spends a huge amount of time retyping people without even trying to see anything from their pov, nor why they chose what they did, etc. She claims to be empathetic...but it's all talk, no action.

Frankly, I am not even convinced that she is ISFj. She despises Te when it is given her, unless it's used to support her personal belief system. She has stated a few times that she does not feel the need to test her beliefs against reality nor common experiences, and that it's her level of confidence in something that determines how accurate to reality her belief is. This is actually another area where she comes into conflict with not just Deltas, but Gammas as well. It,s one thing to acknowledge that everyone forms their subjective opinions and understandings about things...it's a whole other thing to refuse to test that understanding against anything beyond one's own mind.

ISFjs that I,ve interacted with may not consider some of the alternative views of something like an Ne might, and they might dislike it being brought up and making things messy (and I don't think that is a bad thing, btw), but I've never met one who so utterly rejected it as well as any facts to helped support it.

I could go on. I had actually recently thought about sitting down to see if I could finally draw a conclusion about her type, but I didn't deem it worth more than the other projects I have going on.

I am actually leaning more towards her being an Fe type.
And I'll be honest, I haven,t completely dismissed the idea of her being FiNe. I'm not really sure how much of her attitude is forum related, nor how much is because she hooked onto a theory that she feels gives her permission to act like a c*** rather than the humanist she claims to be. Often, I wish she would drop the theory and the retyping agenda, and just relax and interact with people like she normally would. Screw the Ti efforts. (I have a hard time believing that she is this aggressive and hostile in normal life...but maybe that this is over the internet allows parts of herself to show through that under normal conditions, or in different topics, wouldn't appear.)

[Creepy-Snaps]

Kassie, I find it interesting you made this thread. I've been saying for over a year now, I think Maritsa seems more ESI than EII, as she seems more focused on attacking and picking arguments with others who disagree with her understanding of the theory/rules, Se>Ne, actively defending the system, whereas an EII I believe would be more focused on making peace, and resolving any ill feelings.

ESI? Hadn't thought about it much. Her grandiose entrance into the forum I would think is completely out of character for an ESI.

Good point.

Keep in mind, Maritsa studied Jung for 4-5 years or so BEFORE even joining the forum, which speaks more to ESI, more focused on learning the rules rather than being more open-minded with the other people's perspectives of the theory.

By inviting people to voice their opinions? I'm with my dual who will give you and everyone a million examples of why I am not attuned to the sensory environment around me; an ESI who isn't a clean freak (to the point of sanitary cleanliness), an ESI who doesn't tote her kids to church every sunday, an ESI who doesn't demand tradition down their kids throat? how many fucking reasons and reasons do people need to understand basics of this shit?

Maritsa, not being "attuned to the sensory environment" may be general introversion. You seem to understand the definitions of various types well, and we are merely discussing a possibility. You and boyfriend may very well still be duals.

Everyone, please make a conscious effort to be polite to Maritsa in this thread. We know unfortunately her self-image is tied strongly to being INFj, and 'Humanitarian', and although we are casually discussing her socionics type on a socionics forum, she seems to be taking things personally. Although mentioning 'her intelligence level' or her 'open-mindedness' do not seem ill-intended, and more in-line with simply figuring out her type, it could be perceived as insulting, and she has already reported this thread. Everyone has value, and I wouldn't want to see anyone get hurt when there's no need. Thanks!

[FoxOnStilts]

Kassie, I find it interesting you made this thread. I've been saying for over a year now...

Kassie doesn't think Maritsa is ESI. She is just annoyed about it being mentioned everywhere and hopes that a centralized thread will keep it out of the rest of the forums (presumably so she can ignore said thread )

[Trevor]

Keep in mind, Maritsa studied Jung for 4-5 years or so BEFORE even joining the forum, which speaks more to ESI, more focused on learning the rules rather than being more open-minded with the other people's perspectives of the theory.

An ESI type wants a perspective/theory/perspective-of-the-theory shoved down its throat. Preferably by an LIE.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Kassie doesn't think Maritsa is ESI. She is just annoyed about it being mentioned everywhere and hopes that a centralized thread will keep it out of the rest of the forums (presumably so she can ignore said thread )

Oh gotcha.

An ESI type wants a perspective/theory/perspective-of-the-theory shoved down its throat. Preferably by an LIE.

Which could explain why she dove into the theory of Jung so much, if an ENTj dual were missing in her environment.

[anndelise]

FWIW, she comes on tinychat frequently and I've never seen her aggressive or anything remotely like that there. She's still stubbornly opinionated of course, but it doesn't come off as brash as it does here; she's kind of meek about it, even.

I haven't been on tinychat enough to be sure of anything, but the what...3-4 or so times I've been on, she has eventually been on. Each time, I have seen her
A) positioning her body into poses according to what the cam shows,
B) go out of her way to portray a certain relationship status with her bf,
C) act pissy when someone she doesn't like dares to be in the room while she is there.
And once I saw her trying to pick a fight with squark, and attempt to draw in her bf (matt?) as support against @squark. Squark had done nothing regarding Maritsa the entire time I was there. Oh, except she did laugh when Maritsa tried to draw matt into whatever was up maritsa,s butt that time, and squark did ask why matt didn,t like us as Maritsa said out of the blue. (it was a really weird interaction on Maritsa,s side...I thought maybe it might have been due to her health issues and meds..or maybe a couple of drinks or something that might influence coherency. Either way, squark and I wound up moving our conver to IM.)

[World Socionics]

SEE - aggressive, lacking insight and just won't listen to reason.

[JWC3]

SEE - aggressive, lacking insight and just won't listen to reason.

I hope you never go away.

[Creepy-Snaps]

I hope you never go away.

aka JWC3 wants to have your babies.

[JWC3]

aka JWC3 wants to have your babies.

Well I mean, sure I do.

I reserve the right to have everyone's babies.

[woofwoofl]

SEE - aggressive, lacking insight and just won't listen to reason.

and god damn fucking proud of it too! hahahaha

[squark]

And once I saw her trying to pick a fight with squark, and attempt to draw in her bf (matt?) as support against @squark. Squark had done nothing regarding Maritsa the entire time I was there. Oh, except she did laugh when Maritsa tried to draw matt into whatever was up maritsa,s butt that time, and squark did ask why matt didn,t like us as Maritsa said out of the blue. (it was a really weird interaction on Maritsa,s side...I thought maybe it might have been due to her health issues and meds..or maybe a couple of drinks or something that might influence coherency. Either way, squark and I wound up moving our conver to IM.)

I don't know what that was about. The more Matt glared at the camera, the funnier I thought it was, and I laughed more, which might have upset him. I didn't feel like they were trying to pick a fight with me or anything though - just seemed funny and odd to me.

[anndelise]

I don't know what that was about. The more Matt glared at the camera, the funnier I thought it was, and I laughed more, which might have upset him. I didn't feel like they were trying to pick a fight with me or anything though - just seemed funny and odd to me.

Okies, I will adjust that particular memory accordingly, since you've interacted with her more there than I have, and so probably have a better feel for that than I would.

[Krig the Viking]

I've been saying this since 2010.

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anyone considered ESI? I think it nicely explains some things -- her [Maritsa's] stubbornness (Se), her unwillingness to consider alternative possibilities (PoLR Ne), but also her (rather aggressive) insistence that she is a nice person who cares about people (Fi).

I dunno, that's just the impression I get.

...I do think that the alternatives Maritsa rejects are specifically Ne in nature. Her typing method focuses exclusively on external physical features (the province of Se), and she explicitly rejects out of hand arguments based on trying to discern the internal mental structure of the subject's psyche (the province of Ne).

[Kim]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I have never said that Ne has anything to do with intelligence. I have also never said that Maritsa is not intelligent (because she obviously is). My sister and one of my best friends are ESI and they are smarter than most people I know. Ne PoLR to me has something to do with not naturally considering alternatives (among many other things), which does not impact ones ability to sort through these complexities. I have my doubts that Maritsa is EII and I think she could be ESI, also because I find her to be more forceful than most EIIs I know. My typing of her is not only based on my perception of Ne PoLR, but also of my perception of FiSe. But I also don't see the need to fight over it, tbh.

[Kim]

ESI who isn't a clean freak (to the point of sanitary cleanliness), an ESI who doesn't tote her kids to church every sunday, an ESI who doesn't demand tradition down their kids throat

Absolutely and positively not type-related.

[ashlesha]

I've been saying this since 2010.

i don't think that's really anything to be proud of.

[Kim]

i don't think that's really anything to be proud of.

I don't get it - almost everyone on this forum had their type questioned at some point. They either open a type thread to explore
the possibilities or they dismiss it and go about their merry way. The more interesting question, in my opinion, is why anyone would
get their panties in a twist because they are assigned a letter combination. That's when I say get a life (and I am saying that because I
was once equally bothered and getting a life helped tremendously). It's not an insult to question someone's type.

[ashlesha]

I don't get it - almost everyone on this forum had their type questioned at some point. They either open a type thread to explore
the possibilities or they dismiss it and go about their merry way. The more interesting question, in my opinion, is why anyone would
get their panties in a twist because they are assigned a letter combination. That's when I say get a life (and I am saying that because I
was once equally bothered and getting a life helped tremendously). It's not an insult to question someone's type.

i don't really know what that has to do with this particular thread but there was a recent thread talking about this in general discussion.

[Aquagraph]

My theory of Maritsa being ESI is not based on Socionics. It's based on power relations. Obviously the Deltans were the only ones accepting enough to take Maritsa in their quadra.

On a serious note, her reality doesn't have a lot of fluidity. Except when it suddenly changes without any mention of her changing her very set beliefs, such as her typing, which she said she doesn't change since she's good with people. Her evaluation is very static instead of conforming to new angles to look from it.

She's also interested in Socionics partly due to wealth with her powercoach thingy. Meaning it serves a concrete function to her life in her head.

But it's hard to type Maritsa as I can see most functions being her PoLRs due to her immaturity.

[anndelise]

The more interesting question, in my opinion, is why anyone would
get their panties in a twist because they are assigned a letter combination. That's when I say get a life (and I am saying that because I
was once equally bothered and getting a life helped tremendously). It's not an insult to question someone's type.

Imo, it's level of insult (or not) depends on a few things, like how it,s done, and the reasons for it.
In a way, constantly harping on someone's self-typing is akin to saying that the typer knows this person, in all aspects of their life, better than the typee does. Or..that the typee doesn't understand something that the typee considers important enough to understand. Unfortunately, it can easily be akin to dismissing the actual person for some imagined creature.

And no, I am NOT claiming innocence.