Is Enneagram theory completely separate from Socionics?

[sar]

Are ennegram types completely separate from socionics? or...not? Thanks!

[noid]

Some say thats 2 totally different system, some say its a bit related to socionic or mbti, and imo, they are.
The problem is that you can read various unrelated description for one type, but the pattern I see is :

1 : , but ISTJ seem to correspond too
2 :
3 :
4 : and perhaps , althought I would more say 5w4 or 5w6 or something like that
5 :
6 :
7 :
8 :
9 : ( aspirationnal is obvious in some description)

[Cat King Cole]

Some say thats 2 totally different system, some say its a bit related to socionic or mbti, and imo, they are.
The problem is that you can read various unrelated description for one type, but the pattern I see is :

1 : , but ISTJ seem to correspond too
2 :
3 :
4 : and perhaps , althought I would more say 5w4 or 5w6 or something like that
5 :
6 :
7 :
8 :
9 : ( aspirationnal is obvious in some description)

I'd revise this somewhat.

1: logic + rationality.
2:
3: not FP
4:
5: logic + introtim
6: dominance, intuition? based on possible mistypes in the community. possibly also generic childhood abuse type.
7: extratim + irrational
8: extratim + sensing
9: judicious + introtim

withdrawn types are by definition introtim. aggressive types are by definition extratim. complaint does not have a direct socionics equivalent.

[Bardia]

Two completely different systems. People here like to correlate them together imperfectly.

[Cat King Cole]

These correlations blow chunks of sloppy ass.

Yeah. As it stands the enneagram isn't tied to any measurable psychology. Rather than playing around with neurotransmitters, they'd be better served by rising above the pseudoscience of certainty and correlating with what we know of Big 5.

[mfckr]

These correlations blow chunks of sloppy ass.

Yeah. As it stands the enneagram isn't tied to any measurable psychology. Rather than playing around with neurotransmitters, they'd be better served by rising above the pseudoscience of certainty and correlating with what we know of Big 5.

It's been done. See full report.

I haven't read this yet, but there might be some good ideas in there for how to do the same with socionics.

[Cat King Cole]

Interesting. I'll read through this while sober and more able to adequately apply scepticism to the research and researchers.

[GuavaDrunk]

Two totally different systems. The Enneagram is about types of deeply-ingrained defense mechanisms. Socionics is about cognition methods, or filters. There may be correlations due to cognition type biasing people towards certain reactions for eg, but direct correspondences are highly unlikely.

[Crispy]

Interesting. I'll read through this while sober and more able to adequately apply scepticism to the research and researchers.

When someone tells you that being skeptical is a good idea, BE SKEPTICAL.

[Cat King Cole]

Like

I take it you listen to Skeptoid too?

[Crispy]

Ya been listening to a lot of them since you last posted about it. Plan on going through the whole podcast by the end of summer. A lot of them are obvious (most of the paranormal) but topics like organic food, and his take on Zeitgeist have been very informative. At the very least I've rid my mind of the last 9/11 truth doubt.

[Raver]

Some say thats 2 totally different system, some say its a bit related to socionic or mbti, and imo, they are.
The problem is that you can read various unrelated description for one type, but the pattern I see is :

1 : , but ISTJ seem to correspond too
2 :
3 :
4 : and perhaps , althought I would more say 5w4 or 5w6 or something like that
5 :
6 :
7 :
8 :
9 : ( aspirationnal is obvious in some description)

I'd revise this somewhat.

1: logic + rationality.
2:
3: not FP
4:
5: logic + introtim
6: dominance, intuition? based on possible mistypes in the community. possibly also generic childhood abuse type.
7: extratim + irrational
8: extratim + sensing
9: judicious + introtim

withdrawn types are by definition introtim. aggressive types are by definition extratim. complaint does not have a direct socionics equivalent.

I like these Cat, I'm sure those listed functions and types are more likely to correspond to those Enneagram types. However, I'm sure you will find several exceptions to those. IMO, Socionics does correspond to Enneagram, but only to a limited extent. This is why you'll find very different types with the same Enneagrams.

[Cat King Cole]

I like these Cat, I'm sure those listed functions and types are more likely to correspond to those Enneagram types. However, I'm sure you will find several exceptions to those. IMO, Socionics does correspond to Enneagram, but only to a limited extent. This is why you'll find very different types with the same Enneagrams.

I'm presently of the opinion that Withdrawn Extrotims and Aggressive Introtims are paradoxical notions, and thus completely impossible. Other than that, yeah, fair game.

[Raver]

I like these Cat, I'm sure those listed functions and types are more likely to correspond to those Enneagram types. However, I'm sure you will find several exceptions to those. IMO, Socionics does correspond to Enneagram, but only to a limited extent. This is why you'll find very different types with the same Enneagrams.

I'm presently of the opinion that Withdrawn Extrotims and Aggressive Introtims are paradoxical notions, and thus completely impossible. Other than that, yeah, fair game.

I fit into the Withdrawn Extratim label quite well IRL. I also know introverts that can be very aggressive and social. It is paradoxical if you think the reasons they exist is because of Socionics. However, I think Introverted Extratims and Extraverted Introtims are that way as a result of factors unrelated to Socionics imo.

[Cat King Cole]

You're a 6 though--that makes you Compliant, not Withdrawn.

Withdrawn refers to 9, 5 and 4. All of whom are typically described in accordance with a Socionics introtim.

[Raver]

You're a 6 though--that makes you Compliant, not Withdrawn.

Withdrawn refers to 9, 5 and 4. All of whom are typically described in accordance with a Socionics introtim.

Okay, I guess that makes more sense come to think of it.

[noid]

Originally Posted by Cat King Cole View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by noid View Post
Some say thats 2 totally different system, some say its a bit related to socionic or mbti, and imo, they are.
The problem is that you can read various unrelated description for one type, but the pattern I see is :

1 : , but ISTJ seem to correspond too
2 :
3 :
4 : and perhaps , althought I would more say 5w4 or 5w6 or something like that
5 :
6 :
7 :
8 :
9 : ( aspirationnal is obvious in some description)
I'd revise this somewhat.

1: logic + rationality.
2:
3: not FP
4:
5: logic + introtim
6: dominance, intuition? based on possible mistypes in the community. possibly also generic childhood abuse type.
7: extratim + irrational
8: extratim + sensing
9: judicious + introtim

withdrawn types are by definition introtim. aggressive types are by definition extratim. complaint does not have a direct socionics equivalent.
I like these Cat, I'm sure those listed functions and types are more likely to correspond to those Enneagram types. However, I'm sure you will find several exceptions to those. IMO, Socionics does correspond to Enneagram, but only to a limited extent. This is why you'll find very different types with the same Enneagrams.

there is exception for sure, but imo this is the most likely.
9 are Si/Ne, I maintain that, various enneagram 9 description have sometime better Ne aspirationnal description than socionic itself.

Ive asked me if 6 correspond mainly to FiNe or FiNe and FiSe, its a good question imo. Some 6 description speak about "impossibility to see possibility" wich refer perhaps more to Ne PoLR of ISFj, but some other speak more about Ne second things.
Another stuff wich bug me is that if we consider 6 FiNe, we need to remember too that for some enneagram author, 6 is one of the most common type, and this contrast with the fact that FiNe are not so common (ooohh another interressant question, if anyone have the 16 ptype distribution ?).
6w5 is definitely FiNe althought. Pure 6 is perhaps ISFJ... Idk. There is a possibility that various Fi quadra relate to it, perhaps ESTJ too. Its really not a clear enneagram type, containing probably too much type in one.

possibly also generic childhood abuse type.

can you elaborate on this ? ive hard time to see this type of event interfering with basic fear/basic desire/motivation...

These correlations blow chunks of sloppy ass.

imo there is correlation, even if your Ni dont want to see it. In another mo, enneagram seem imperfect and have less potential of application irl than socionic.

[chip]

Socionics Hidden agenda

To love - INTP/ISTP
To be loved - ENTP/ESTP
To understand - INFP/ISFP
To be perfect - ESFJ/ESTJ
To be healthy - INTJ/INFJ
To be wealthy - ENFJ/ENTJ
To know - ENFP/ESFP
To believe - ISTJ/ISFJ

Enneagram
Ones - basic desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced
basic fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective

Twos - basic desire: To feel loved
basic fear: Of being unwanted, unworthy of being loved

Threes -basic desire: to be valuable and worthwhile
basic fear: of being worthless

Fours - basic desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an
identity)
basic fear: That they have no identity or personal significance

Fives - basic desire: To be capable and competent
basic fear: Being useless, helpless, or incapable

Sixes - basic desire: To have security and support
basic fear: Of being without support and guidance

Sevens - basic desire: To be satisfied and content—to have their needs
fulfilled
basic fear: Of being deprived and in pain

Eights - basic desire: To protect themselves (to be in control of their own life
and destiny)
basic fear: Of being harmed or controlled by others

Nines - basic desire: To have inner stability "peace of mind"
basic fear: Of loss and separation


How do you begin the correlation?

[somavision]

Yeah. As it stands the enneagram isn't tied to any measurable psychology. Rather than playing around with neurotransmitters, they'd be better served by rising above the pseudoscience of certainty and correlating with what we know of Big 5.

It's been done. See full report.

I haven't read this yet, but there might be some good ideas in there for how to do the same with socionics.

This is very interesting

[Creepy-]

Two completely different systems which overlap in some places, but they do not (in my opinion) attempt to describe the same areas of personality, so any real correlations will be vague, although there is a tendency for certain sociotypes to be certain enneagram types, so it seems that they must be related somehow.

[GuavaDrunk]

There's a blog article somewhere about types of children responding to types of parents leading to types of fixations. Type of child can be influenced by their type of cognition, hence the correlations?

[Skeptic]

Guys, Abbie made a topic a ways back that had some pretty reasonable conclusions regarding probabilistic correlations. I can't seem to find it though.