trying to type an old friend that defies type stereotypes

[Joy]

I recently came in contact again with an old friend, and I'm a bit perplexed about her type. I had considered her Gamma SF, but neither of those really fits. She's almost certainly Se/Ni and Te/Fi valuing. This much is apparent in her relationships with the people around her. Unfortunately, it's really difficult to tell which functions are ego and which are super id.

As for temperaments, I'd say EJ is the least likely. Problems with the other temperaments:

EP: Doesn't have the stereotypical EP energy expenditure habits. She especially lacks the enthusiasm, positivity, and light-heartedness of your average SEE. She doesn't smile and laugh a lot like most of the SEE's I've known do, even when she's enjoying herself. She also lacks the social prowess and confidence about relationships that SEE's typically have.

IJ: Seems more like an irrational type than a rational type, overall. Lacks the self-discipline that IJ types usually have. Less "self-contained" in her habits of conversation. (See below.)

IP: No real problems here, except that her demeanor is more similar to your typical xFxp type (and again, she's definitely Fi/Te valuing).

What I mean when I say that her demeanor is more like that of an xFxp type is that while she's not particularly emotionally expressive, you pretty much always know how she's feeling. She'll come right out and say things about how she's feeling that would embarass a lot of people, and she never makes any effort to disguise her facial expression to hide what she's feeling. It seems almost involuntary. Again though, her expressiveness is not that of your typical ExFx type. She usually just has a bored expression on her face, even when she's enjoying herself. And unless she's in a really good mood, her tone is usually pretty flat. Fe/Ti types complain that she's gloomy/sullen/depressive. When people criticize her for this, she seems to feel like there's really nothing she can do about it, that they're asking something unreasonable of her.

She's so open and sincere about what's on her mind if you tell her something that you wouldn't want other people to know, you have to make sure she knows that she's not supposed to talk about it. Otherwise she'll tell people private things about you without even considering that you might not want people (or certain people) to know about them. It really bothers her when she finds out that she's done this though. She never means to, she just doesn't think about it until after the fact. She also has poor volume regulation. She'll talk too loudly without realizing it. She hates being criticized for this, too.

Another trait that I had attributed to xFxpishness is her tendency to adopt silly, grammatically improper, nontraditional, and even trendy sayings and mannerisms from people around her. She doesn't seem to feel silly using phrases that personally I would feel too embarrassed to say.




Gotta go for now. More later.

[Joy]

She has a tendency to hold on to bad relationships and friendships. Her last relationship was with someone who sounds very EIE, from what she's said about him. It didn't go well. He would criticize her for being too blunt and for not contributing to the happy atmosphere. She'd complain that he was being dramatic, and they'd fight. She couldn't understand why someone would prefer to pretend not to be irritated or upset about stuff and just let it all build up and then cause a big fuss all of a sudden. She probably stayed in that relationship at least a year longer than she should have. She said that he had positive qualities about him, but when asked to to elaborate, her response was pretty much just "he gives me Fi sometimes" (though not in those words, of course).


More later.

[redbaron]

What about ISTp?

[Joy]

Ne/Si is much more likely than Fe/Ti, but a Ni/Se preference is still rather apparent.

[Elro]

Fe PoLR at least seems a good bet (from what little info you've given), though I also thought ISTp was quite plausible.

Edit: actually rereading it I'd lean Ni>Si, but again it's very little information. So I'd lean INTp>ISTp, but it really would help to know much more.

[Joy]

She tends to be more lazy and laid back than not. She procrastinates a lot on things that she needs to do, too. Her level of motivation and excitability is low, but she likes it when someone gets her to go do something with him/her. She seems to get along best with extroverts and Se ego types, from what I recall of mutual acquaintances.

As a teenager she was a rather solitary person, feeling as though no one understood her. She had a few close friends, but for the most part she was pretty asocial. (Asocial is probably a very good term to describe her, actually, at least by this definition.) She was rather dark, too. She read more than the average teenager does these days. She always held an active interest in "intellectual" subjects and conversations, but she doesn't have an "intellectual" demeanor herself.

I don't know her enneagram type, but she's not a 5. She's probably sp last, and based on my understanding of the enneagram, 6 seems most likely. I'm not sure about that typing though.

When we were teenagers I hung around her house a bit. Her mom is this really nice ExFp, and I was surprised by how openly critical she was with her mom. They've always had a pretty good relationship, but if her mom was doing something unnecessary, she'd just flat out say, "Quit being stupid, Mom. You don't need to do that." Her mom didn't get offended or mad or anything, which was even more shocking to me. I was also surprised by how much freedom her mom gave her. I suppose that could be more of a reflection of my own upbringing than anything though.

Our relationship was always sort of like we were sisters, me being the older one. (I am a year or two older than her though.) I'd give her advice on all different subjects. She's always welcomed it, too. (This is one of the reasons I've thought that Fi ego might make the most sense.)

I'll post more as I think of other stuff.

[Joy]

Fe PoLR at least seems a good bet (from what little info you've given), though I also thought ISTp was quite plausible.

Edit: actually rereading it I'd lean Ni>Si, but again it's very little information. So I'd lean INTp>ISTp, but it really would help to know much more.

In a lot of ways I would tend to agree, but there's still the matter of her overall "xFxpishness". I mean, I've known ILI's who weren't "intellectual", but they wouldn't have used the kind of terminology she does sometimes. I mean, sometimes she'll say stuff like "roxors" (instead of "that rocks") if she's been haning around someone who says that. (This isn't an actual example, but I can't really think of a good one off hand and I think it gets the idea across.) Her tastes in movies and music and whatnot also somewhat mirrored those of other people she hung around with when we were teenagers, but I don't know if she still does this.

[Elro]

In a lot of ways I would tend to agree, but there's still the matter of her overall "xFxpishness". I mean, I've known ILI's who weren't "intellectual", but they wouldn't have used the kind of terminology she does sometimes. I mean, sometimes she'll say stuff like "roxors" (instead of "that rocks") if she's been haning around someone who says that. (This isn't an actual example, but I can't really think of a good one off hand and I think it gets the idea across.) Her tastes in movies and music and whatnot also somewhat mirrored those of other people she hung around with when we were teenagers, but I don't know if she still does this.

I don't see exactly why that is Fp...? If type-related at all.

[Joy]

I don't see exactly why that is Fp...? If type-related at all.

At this point I'm not sure... I guess I've just been assuming that since I first started learning about Socionics. Maybe it's just because I'd be too embarrassed to say stuff like that?

There's also the matter of her being so blunt and open about what she's thinking and feeling. I guess I always assumed that these characteristics are related to being an ethical type. Now that I think about it though, I'm not sure it's something that she really uses... it's more like something she doesn't have much (if any) control over. And like I said, her expression and tone are usually sort of flat, at least compared to your typical ExFx type.

[Slacker]

If you're sure she's Gamma, than INTp. Otherwise, she could be ISTp too. I agree, that other stuff isn't type related and is just throwing you off. The bluntness doesn't point to an Fp type as much as an Fe-PoLR type IMO.

[Joy]

Even if it's how she feels that she's being blunt about?

Also, I definitely see Fi/Te valuing, but I don't see an abundance of Te. Granted, I often don't in ILI's.

There was another friend of mine who I'm sure was ILI and who didn't seem particularly Te to me (she was more quiet than this girl though). Implied and reyn would be other examples. I don't see an abundance of Te coming from either of them. I really don't think implied would think this girl is her identical though. (I can just hear her saying "How is she a logical type?" ) I don't think reyn would say that, but there are differences between her and reyn, too. Reyn is a pretty ideal example of a female ILI in my book, and she has a more... contemplative?... demeanor than my friend.

Could it be that my friend is just too focused on her hidden agenda?

[implied]

If you're sure she's Gamma, than INTp. Otherwise, she could be ISTp too. I agree, that other stuff isn't type related and is just throwing you off. The bluntness doesn't point to an Fp type as much as an Fe-PoLR type IMO.

yeah, seems like weak ethics. anyone can use casual speech imo.

[implied]

I really don't think implied would think this girl is her identical though. (I can just hear her saying "How is she a logical type?" )

maybe not. maybe so! now i'm interested in seeing her. haha.

[Joy]

I think she'd post here if I told her she should check it out, but I'm not sure I'd wish that upon her, lol.

[redbaron]

I think she'd post here if I told her she should check it out, but I'm not sure I'd wish that upon her, lol.

[Joy]

I should add that of all eight of the possible ego functions, the only possibility that I don't see any problems with is Ni. (Not that she definitely is a Ni ego type. I just can't think of any reasons why it wouldn't work.)

The only temperament that I don't see any problems with is IP, aside from the fact that her overall demeanor is more similar to your typical ethical type than your typical logical type. (Especially in how what she's feeling is always so apparent.)

And yes, I'm absolutely certain that she's Te/Fi > Ti/Fe (based on all of her intertype relations and interactions that I've witnessed or heard about).

Put it all together, and we've got quite the contradiction.

[Mea]

she sounds like an ILI trying to use Fe imo.
and obviously isn't succeeding too well at it.
probably hung out with many Fe valuing types, which might explain why she seems like an F type, and her use of Fe?

[implied]

i think you need to post more info or something. some personal anecdote. how does she act around people she doesn't know well?

[Joy]

i think you need to post more info or something. some personal anecdote. how does she act around people she doesn't know well?

I actually had to ask her this, lol. She and I haven't spent all that much time together around people that she didn't know well, and obviously I've never seen her in that situation without my being there.

She said that she nervously rambles and tries to seem interesting or something like that. Tries to get people interested in conversing. If she knows at least one person well though, then she'll act more playful with that person, maybe even a bit hyper. (I have witnessed this to some extent, and I can picture her doing this in an uncomfortable sort of way.) She said she may try to banter with that person or something.

I also asked her what type of criticism stings the most but is something that she doesn't feel like she can say anything about in her defense. She said that it bothers her the most when someone criticizes her for making a social mistake, like saying something she shouldn't have (whether related to private information or not) or being too loud or something like that.

I will add though that I've snooped around her and her friends' myspaces, and I've talked to her through IM a bit, and I must say that her online persona is different. She's... fluffier?... and seems even more like an xFxp or possibly EP. Her style of conversation is even completely different. I wouldn't have guess IxTp as even a possible typing for her if I had only seen that. It's not that it isn't true to who she is, it just has a different tone to it. I think she's more relaxed and laid back and fun/playful (and lazy) than she seems online. Also, while the way she feels about something is always apparent, online it's not as... mellowed?... by her tone and whatnot.

[Joy]

Anyways, I keep going back to this: The way she's not at all afraid or hesitant to show how she feels about stuff just doesn't seem Fe PoLR to me.

[redbaron]

and I will add this: your description of her reminds me of myself when I was younger! lol I think I probably came across as very much Fi>Fe in my youth.

[Joy]

and I will add this: your description of her reminds me of myself when I was younger! lol I think I probably came across as very much Fi>Fe in my youth.

Including all of your intertype relations?

[redbaron]

Including all of your intertype relations?

Well I don't know. Possibly. My two best friends were ESI and my mother is EII so I had plenty of Fi influence. But all I know is that I behaved much like an INTp. Just really heavy on the Ni and not confident enough to use Fe very much. I had few friends but the ones I had were very close and closed off to other groups of people. We would kind of section ourselves off from the rest of the groups (whether it was at church or in school) and talk quietly amongst ourselves. I don't know. How very un-beta of me!

[redbaron]

Te creatives can, as said, mirror emotions but lack the ability to readily identify and especially show their own. They can be tolerant of emotions until highly emotional people begin to push it on them, then you can expect the Te creative to run away or back into a corner. They can also 'play along' to an extent with a group (of Fe valuing types) but will move towards the shadows and can suddenly shut off to it without remorse. They may also play along or politely distance themselves in order not to cause an emotional turbulance since as a rule they don't want to be found n the role of the one who directly alters the emotional atmosphere if they can consciously help it.

This is interesting. I am (and always have been) very very good at readily identifying my own emotions. But no one would necessarily be able to tell this if they didn't know me really well. I'm also highly tolerant of the strong emotions of others (such as my EIE aunt. some people find her to be too much, too strong, but I've always really adored her and her strong emotions never phase me). When I was young, I definitely didn't want to be responsible for the emotional atmosphere. I can remember feeling like I wanted to distance myself from being in the center of things. But that might have been just self-consciousness and/or immaturity.

[Joy]

Well I don't know. Possibly. My two best friends were ESI and my mother is EII so I had plenty of Fi influence. But all I know is that I behaved much like an INTp. Just really heavy on the Ni and not confident enough to use Fe very much. I had few friends but the ones I had were very close and closed off to other groups of people. We would kind of section ourselves off from the rest of the groups (whether it was at church or in school) and talk quietly amongst ourselves. I don't know. How very un-beta of me!

I could see that.

I will add though that I've snooped around her and her friends' myspaces, and I've talked to her through IM a bit, and I must say that her online persona is different. She's... fluffier?... and seems even more like an xFxp or possibly EP. Her style of conversation is even completely different. I wouldn't have guess IxTp as even a possible typing for her if I had only seen that. It's not that it isn't true to who she is, it just has a different tone to it. I think she's more relaxed and laid back and fun/playful (and lazy) than she seems online. Also, while the way she feels about something is always apparent, online it's not as... mellowed?... by her tone and whatnot.

Maybe the term I'm looking for here is perky?

[redbaron]

Maybe the term I'm looking for here is perky?

I'm very perky on my blog. Much more so than in person. haha A lot of IEIs express themselves better in writing. One of the several reasons why I prefer email communication to phone conversations.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

She sounds like your stereotypical woman really. Basic feminine behavior, prefers to be educated, doesn't like doing much etc. Reads a lot. Reminds me of my sister kinda. I'm worried about women like you described though, because it seems to me they are exactly the type that attracts men that aren't good for them. Like she seems to attract abusive men for her. From what you described of that EIE guy, but there's probably other examples.

I'd say ILI or IEI or ESI are your best bets.

We would kind of section ourselves off from the rest of the groups (whether it was at church or in school) and talk quietly amongst ourselves. I don't know. How very un-beta of me!

That description of Betas being loud & obnoxious was written by a Delta or somebody that just didn't really understand us. Betas can be very quiet, they usually are. Even the description of SLEs says that they prefer to stay in the shadows. So I don't know about quadra-wide stereotypes like that. I guess if you put all Betas together and no interference, we'd be all happy and extroverted like that because no other quadra would be stifling their own essence. But I don't think reality can set this up. Interesting social experiment, I'd suppose.

[redbaron]

That description of Betas being loud & obnoxious was written by a Delta or somebody that just didn't really understand us. Betas can be very quiet, they usually are. Even the description of SLEs says that they prefer to stay in the shadows. So I don't know about quadra-wide stereotypes like that. I guess if you put all Betas together and no interference, we'd be all happy and extroverted like that because no other quadra would be stifling their own essence. But I don't think reality can set this up. Interesting social experiment, I'd suppose.

yeah okay. point taken. You're right about SLEs. The one I know often hangs back quite a bit. anyway, I'm way off topic now. sorry.

[Ritella]

Anyways, I keep going back to this: The way she's not at all afraid or hesitant to show how she feels about stuff just doesn't seem Fe PoLR to me.

I'm not sure I would describe that as Fe. It more depends on how or why she does it.
I have an ILI friend who is very blunt about emotional things. In fact, most of our conversations are him telling me what happened in a relationship, what he liked/disliked, what he's uncertain about, how he's upset that some girl hurt his ego....
I wouldn't describe that as Fe at all. More like Fi-valuing if anything.
Also, my ILI dad can be very emotionally expressive. He frequently acts like a clown and sings along loudly to opera or cheesy emotional songs.
About her use of trendy phrases: ILI's do this from time to time. Usually they do it with a certain amount of sarcasm, as if to imply that they've consciously chosen to incorporate the term into their vocabulary rather than having been brainwashed by pop culture.
From the way that you described her, my best bet is also ILI. Does she tend to express uncertainty a lot? All of my ILI friends' neuroses are sort of along the lines of "a pigeon pooped on me today. I think this is a sign of my impending failure." No joke. There's always like this gloominess about the future.

[redbaron]

All of my ILI friends' neuroses are sort of along the lines of "a pigeon pooped on me today. I think this is a sign of my impending failure." No joke. There's always like this gloominess about the future.

Totally. I have an ILI friend who always says stuff like that too. There was a book published with some poems that he had written and his comment was "I have it and I never read it. don't waste your money" Yet he's extremely talented. There's always a sense of self-deprecation.

[redbaron]

I dunno, try suggesting your friend to sit in a circle while holding hands and singing Kum Bay Yah or Puff the Magic Dragon while someone plays guitar. Make them sing. Better yet, try pushing her to. If the reaction is one of sheer horror and borderline violence, you might have an Fe PoLR on your hands

No. I would be horrified by this also.

[unefille]

I dunno, try suggesting your friend to sit in a circle while holding hands and singing Kum Bay Yah or Puff the Magic Dragon while someone plays guitar. Make them sing. Better yet, try pushing her to. If the reaction is one of sheer horror and borderline violence, you might have an Fe PoLR on your hands.

...Reminds me why cutesie festivities make me feel like a total dumbass...

No. I would be horrified by this also.

As would I, an Fe-base.

I would only join in if it were obvious that we were being ironic. And doing a parody or something. O.o

[Ritella]

I know: tell your friend to dress as something attention-getting for Halloween (e.g. Jessica Rabbit). If she quips back- in a drone, monotonous voice- with something like "That would work, except for the incredible look of dejection that I'll be wearing, as well," then I think ILI is fairly certain.

[Joy]

I know: tell your friend to dress as something attention-getting for Halloween (e.g. Jessica Rabbit). If she quips back- in a drone, monotonous voice- with something like "That would work, except for the incredible look of dejection that I'll be wearing, as well," then I think ILI is fairly certain.

You bring up a very good point. She wouldn't wear something super attention grabbing that's slutty or whatever, but I think she'd up be up try things that an ESI or ILI would see as out of the question. She'd also do it in a less care-free way than your typical SEE would though, and it might be more difficult to convince her to do stuff than a typical SEE wouldn't need much convincing in order to do. But then again, I'm usually the one talking them out of doing things instead of into doing things, so maybe I'm off here.

Anyways, lazy SEE or weird ESI (probably SEE though) is sounding more likely at this point.

<3

[Joy]

Okay, definitely SEE. I've been talking to her more, and it's become more apparent.

As for her lack of your typical Se, EP, positivist demeanor... well, I think she just needs to hang out with more Gamma NT's to bring it out. Some of the stuff I mentioned is probably just related to quadra values, too.

[Khamelion]

Okay, definitely SEE. I've been talking to her more, and it's become more apparent.

As for her lack of your typical Se, EP, positivist demeanor... well, I think she just needs to hang out with more Gamma NT's to bring it out. Some of the stuff I mentioned is probably just related to quadra values, too.

I'll have to come and visit and we'll all get together, GAMMA PARTY!!!! KANPAI!!!!!

[Joy]

(not that a Gamma party would have hats and noisemakers and whatnot, lol)

[Khamelion]

(not that a Gamma party would have hats and noisemakers and whatnot, lol)

hats are awesome. but we'd have cooler hats than that.

the SEE's will make enough noise, we dont need toys for that.

[Ritella]

lol. where did you find the smiley with the party hat???!!!
okay, SEEs DO use lots of colloquial phrases. And they're not really aware that they do it, either. I've seen ILIs tease them about this.

[Khamelion]

lol. where did you find the smiley with the party hat???!!!
okay, SEEs DO use lots of colloquial phrases. And they're not really aware that they do it, either. I've seen ILIs tease them about this.

heheh, ive met this guy who teases me about that sort of thing. not sure if he's ILI though. havnt known him long enough to really type him yet. just brought it up today

we talked about enneagram and he seems to like 3 and 4 descriptions...i kept pushing for 4 but i think he is thinking more about what he WANTS to be like as opposed to what he is. and i think 3 sounds too.....emotional and Fe for him personally. /shrug who knows, maybe he is Fe (hopes not and doesn't think so)


that smiley is from yahoo smilies