POLr + dual-seeking hit

[reyn_til_runa]

i am beginning to wonder if POLr hit + dual seeking hit is the worst combination of hits. or maybe it's this particular person i cannot tolerate anymore. or maybe this is about something different altogether. here's the scenario:

a few times in my life, i have been accused of forcing someone to feel something by virtue of my ill-expressed/chaotic/absent/ever-changing feelings. this is far worse than being accused of the feeling deficit alone.

the ISTj guy i know has managed to clobber me again by suggesting that i had/have feelings for him, have for quite some time, that he hasn't returned these feelings as i have expected him to, and that in the end, he considers that i have pressured him to have feelings for me....doesn't get much worse than this when it comes to dealing with people. i have never said these things to him, never been conscious of feeling them, so don't agree with the appraisal, but the fact that he believes this about me at this time reveals too many insecurities for me to proceed. he has a tendency to cause these dramatic arguments once in awhile (too often for my liking), then a few days later calms down and tries to see things a little more clearly. i have been too tolerant, which is another reason why i cannot stomach being accused of being forceful in any way.

the problem is that i have no defense. my feelings for him have been complicated as the relationship has been unstable over the years. as in most of my relationships, there have been periods of intimacy and periods of detachment, but with him, there have been an inordinate amount of periods of stress/tension. it is a surprise to me that we have salvaged any semblance of relationship at all. the friendship has "ended" many times on account of major misunderstanding of each other's motives.

the current dilemma is that if i say i have not had any feelings for him like he claims i have, it seems that i'm admitting to wasting a lot of time knowing him. i think that my HA makes it difficult to admit to having feelings OR to NOT having feelings for someone. i would rather leave it open-ended. if i say i have not intended to apply pressure, it does not matter to him because he assumes that people work this way -- that typical people get other people to feel things by strength of will combined with feeling. this is so not my style, but i can't convince him that it isn't.

i became argumentative, but froze, felt myself slowly losing the ability to talk about it without getting upset or losing my defense mid-sentence. being accused of exercising will over someone in an area i have little confidence in makes me compensate for not being capable, and never dreaming, of controlling someone in the emotional realm. so, suddenly i pronounce ultimatums. i become firm, too firm. i feign not caring, but it's obvious that i care enough to not be able to continue. i put up every wall at my disposal, but still end up shot. thus, i end up leaving little possibility of salvaging the relationship.

although i do not agree with his appraisal of our relationship, as i would never consider myself being capable or wanting to pull someone's emotional strings, these insults are still major. they affect my self-esteem, to be perfectly and pathetically honest. i feel foolish for trusting him on any level, and with him that often has simply meant being a bit spontaneous as i tend to be. he doesn't go for the unpredictability.

anyway, i cannot imagine making such an error, so refuse to try anymore to prove myself to him. what is this feeling, and why can this ISTj trigger it in me like no one else? it does not seem "ok" to be accused of feeling something strongly and willfully when the feelings are nebulous at best, and then to be accused of impacting his feelings...screw it. im just impulsive at times. the ISTj cannot handle this. i don't plan every second of my life like he does. i may act like i "like him" at times, from his perspective, but i have never intentionally done this with a plan to get him to like me or anything of the sort. sickening.

i feel a rant coming on, so i'll spare you any more details.

[aestrivex]

kill him

[reyn_til_runa]

kill him

maybe tomorrow

[aut0]

maybe tomorrow

why put off until tomorrow what you can do today?

[reyn_til_runa]

why put off until tomorrow what you can do today?

i am rather non-violent. by tomorrow, i might have read the entire "how to kill someone and be a pacifist at the same time" series.

[reyn_til_runa]

( i realized i sometimes believe my questions are implicit. they are not always this way to others).

here they are, explicitly:

1. does this combination of POLr + dual-seeking resonate with anyone ? why/why not?

2. i do not, to my knowledge have asperger's disorder (not a question, but i am predicting at least one of your questions: machtruck).

3. ISTjs help me understand this guy if you can. i know him quite well, in many ways, and so could in some detail describe him to you. however, i do not understand many aspects of his behavior. sometimes it is very predictable, even the bouts of aggression, and so it's more as if i do not like the behavior. he does not have a mental illness, so i am wondering exactly how this may or may not be inherently characteristic of his type. i am also trying to maintain some objectivity. i swear i will not even think of making fun of any one of you. i will do my best not to transfer my experience with him upon you. i may, however, randomly yell "disco sucks" at which time you may promptly ignore me.

4. INTps, or anyone else, do you understand? i don't necessarily care for "yes" or "no" answers in this case because it will not help me understand why this is occurring. i am also wondering if this is a problem that is more related to my social discomfort and "not" aspergian qualities...or something (again) more possibly understood by virtue of intertype relations. i am willing to settle for the moment for a very basic understanding of what goes on between ISTjs and INTps. but am even more interested (because i am skeptical of these intertype relations working) in hearing about potential aspects of this personal problem that i am blinded to by virtue of it encircling weaker, vulnerable functions. i am really trying to not be nonplussed anymore. i cannot stand not being able to understand why he acts like this and why i cannot control my absolute disgust with a big ol tinge of sadness at the moment.



thanks, perhaps

[Creepy-Diana]

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[reyn_til_runa]

If I were him, and someone were behaving that way (and of course I'm not ISTj so take it how you may) I wouldn't know how to react or what was going on, and so I'd probably try various things to get a reaction, response, answer, from the other person, including making them angry if I had to or ranting myself. Anything to find out exactly where I stood and see if there was actual potential there, or if it was a waste of my time. Vagueness and non-answers are infuriating. Having to guess what's going on is frustrating and unproductive. Mixed signals and spotty behavior is extremely confusing.

Some people work much better and enjoy things relaxed, open-ended, vague, here there and yon. Others feel like they're being yanked around horribly in situations like that and want nothing more than direct answers and responses. The two styles do not mix well. At all.

had to think about this for a minute. first, to clarify, it would be more accurate to say that i appreciate knowing where i stand with someone, but don't appreciate having to prove myself in this style. i would like an implicit "we're ok with each other until further notice (which should be quite obvious)." why, if he is looking for something definite in my responses, would he stir up trouble, which is bound to put a person on the defense? also, i tend to answer direct questions directly, and although i generally do like a little wiggle room, won't skirt serious or well- meaning questions if at all possible. what gets me is he didn't ask me "do you have abc feelings for me?" he accused me of having them, and of trying to make him have them.

i guess what i value is a sort of openendedness which stems from feeling secure with a person, from being able to trust someone and be trusted without having to unnecessarily pronounce and commit to feelings. i would like them to be self-evident. i am comfortable in my ability to figure problems out as they arise, so why pressure myself to decide everything before i am ready, especially where another person's timetable enters into the picture?

i agree that being this way with a person who worries a great deal a/b planning for a future does not work. i think he automatically perceives my confidence in one area (Ni) as weakness or a sign of compensating for being afraid to act.

[Expat]

I fully related to Diana's post, and both with hers and reyn_til_runa's regarding my relationship with an INTp woman - the difference being that I never told her what the ISTj told reyn; ny Fi dual-seeking wouldn't allow it).

first, to clarify, it would be more accurate to say that i appreciate knowing where i stand with someone, but don't appreciate having to prove myself in this style. i would like an implicit "we're ok with each other until further notice (which should be quite obvious)."

Here you're showing your relative confidence in Fi (it should be quite obvious that we're ok) with your relative dismissal for Fe (having to prove yourself).

why, if he is looking for something definite in my responses, would he stir up trouble, which is bound to put a person on the defense?

A combination of what Diana said with an implicit assumption that you're more in control of what's going on than he is as to the emotional state of the relationship (Fe dual-seeking).

also, i tend to answer direct questions directly, and although i generally do like a little wiggle room, won't skirt serious or well- meaning questions if at all possible. what gets me is he didn't ask me "do you have abc feelings for me?" he accused me of having them, and of trying to make him have them.

I don't think this is typical ISTj behavior, but it makes sense with Fi role and Fe dual-seeking. His Ti told him that if you act in a certain way, it's because you must have feelings for him - using Ti to "replace" Fi, which is what we often do to the role function - while at the same time, again, expecting you to be the one to take over control in that area.

i guess what i value is a sort of openendedness which stems from feeling secure with a person, from being able to trust someone and be trusted without having to unnecessarily pronounce and commit to feelings. i would like them to be self-evident.

Again the Fi HA with Fe PoLR.

i am comfortable in my ability to figure problems out as they arise, so why pressure myself to decide everything before i am ready, especially where another person's timetable enters into the picture?

i agree that being this way with a person who worries a great deal a/b planning for a future does not work. i think he automatically perceives my confidence in one area (Ni) as weakness or a sign of compensating for being afraid to act.

Yes, or rather, he just feels the need to settle the issue right now. You addressed it well in the first paragraph of the quote above: you feel comfortable in your ability to figure problems as they arise. The thing is, he doesn't, which is why he dislikes putting things off.

For the record, this is the sort of thing that persuades me that reyn_til_runa is ILI while some others here aren't.

[PotatoSpirit]

Uhm, as with your other post about this guy, I don't relate to him very much, and I don't really understand what you are talking about (c: so I can't really explain anything.
My reaction to a girl who I feel is trying to make me fall for her would be either "ok sure" or avoidance depending on how I feel for her. Nothing like the accusations he made.
Actually I don't even understand how someone could say that, it makes no sense... the only scenario I can come up with would be a girl giving me some heavily mixed signals, with me actually feeling something for her and being too immature to say it, as a kind of defense.

[Expat]

the only scenario I can come up with would be a girl giving me some heavily mixed signals, with me actually feeling something for her and being too immature to say it, as a kind of defense.

That sounds about right (from his PoV), except that it seems that he did say it, but blamed her --

[ScarlettLux]

Well I just gotta chime in and say that this is a very interesting topic & I did read through all of it surprisingly enough and my end thought is that I deeply feel for the LSI. I actually understand in a weird way what he is trying to do and the way you are handling things is not improving anything at all. He is seeking left and right but getting absolutely nothing and it's just making him more and more antsy and desperate to act. I'll add more later, I am very tired right now.

[reyn_til_runa]

Here you're showing your relative confidence in Fi (it should be quite obvious that we're ok) with your relative dismissal for Fe (having to prove yourself).

are you also suggesting that if i were to value Fe, i would be seeking opportunities to prove myself?

A combination of what Diana said with an implicit assumption that you're more in control of what's going on than he is as to the emotional state of the relationship (Fe dual-seeking).

ok, i can see the lopsided nature of this relationship (Fe seeking for him, Se for me, how one is being provided to an extent, but the other not at all). what do you think the primary means of Fe seeking is for an ISTj? i can't imagine he would actually want to come to this point. i know he feels insecure and out of sorts. honestly, i had no clue the majority of the time that he was beginning to feel this way or would have tried to steer things in a more certain direction. we both, at times, have come to an impasse, and have in essence told the other person that we simply can't provide what the other needs.

if i think things are ok, and he doesn't give me any indication otherwise, then i find out he is not ok with the status being unspoken, then the entire basis for the relationship is shot as far as i'm concerned. my need for situation to be secure in and of itself is basic and while i might like to veer away from it to benefit him and give him what he needs, i'm stuck. nothing else seems genuine to me. and i would be entirely dissatisfied.

things were bound to deteriorate.

I don't think this is typical ISTj behavior, but it makes sense with Fi role and Fe dual-seeking. His Ti told him that if you act in a certain way, it's because you must have feelings for him - using Ti to "replace" Fi, which is what we often do to the role function - while at the same time, again, expecting you to be the one to take over control in that area.

and how is this trend to replace the role function with the dominant function manifesting itself in my behavior, if at all? or is it not reflexive...?

Yes, or rather, he just feels the need to settle the issue right now. You addressed it well in the first paragraph of the quote above: you feel comfortable in your ability to figure problems as they arise. The thing is, he doesn't, which is why he dislikes putting things off.

yeah that makes sense

[Expat]

are you also suggesting that if i were to value Fe, i would be seeking opportunities to prove myself?

Not quite, because the very expression "prove yourself" is already loaded in a way dismissive of your Fe PoLR. If you valued Fe, I would suggest that you would be more aware of the need for some Fe in order to make sure that you are indeed "ok with each other until further notice".

ok, i can see the lopsided nature of this relationship (Fe seeking for him, Se for me, how one is being provided to an extent, but the other not at all). what do you think the primary means of Fe seeking is for an ISTj? i can't imagine he would actually want to come to this point. i know he feels insecure and out of sorts. honestly, i had no clue the majority of the time that he was beginning to feel this way or would have tried to steer things in a more certain direction. we both, at times, have come to an impasse, and have in essence told the other person that we simply can't provide what the other needs.

The ISTj needs clear signs of the other person's emotional state towards them, whether positive or negative, so he knows where he stands. Especially since Fe is dynamic. To him you are saying, "now I like you, now I don't care", but all in a - to him - low-key and ambiguous way, which he sees as deliberately manipulative, is my guess.

and how is this trend to replace the role function with the dominant function manifesting itself in my behavior, if at all? or is it not reflexive...?

I'm not sure how it would work in your case in the relationship, but perhaps -- you focus on the relationship (as in everything else) in the longer-term implications. You know that, in the longer term, it has reached a certain point. So on a daily basis, for each moment, it should also reflect what is in the longer term, "automatically", without you having to actually focus on the longer term.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[PotatoSpirit]

That sounds about right (from his PoV), except that it seems that he did say it, but blamed her --

What I meant is this hypothetical ISTj not admitting he has feeling for this hypothetical girl because of the mixed signals. But really I have no clue.

[Blaze]

well your post is a little hard to understand reyn but i think you're saying something like this:

he thinks you have a lot of Fe you're throwing at him when actually you have hardly any. but he thinks it because that's what he wants, since that's his dual seeking. but the fact that he would even think that you have all those intense feelings for him slaps your polr. to be accused of throwing around a lot of Fe is insulting first because it's so not who you are and second, even if it was who you are, it's not what you're good at.

you're looking more for a feeling of attraction via Fi and it's not there in any kind of acceptable quantity.

it's like you both want things, things of an ethical nature, things that are slightly different, things that are in different dosages also, things that you are not going to get from the other person.

[reyn_til_runa]

Uhm, as with your other post about this guy, I don't relate to him very much, and I don't really understand what you are talking about (c: so I can't really explain anything.
My reaction to a girl who I feel is trying to make me fall for her would be either "ok sure" or avoidance depending on how I feel for her. Nothing like the accusations he made.
Actually I don't even understand how someone could say that, it makes no sense... the only scenario I can come up with would be a girl giving me some heavily mixed signals, with me actually feeling something for her and being too immature to say it, as a kind of defense.

yes, ok. given that my intention has not been to give heavily mixed signals, and given the fact that i was unaware of doing so, i will ask:

how do you define heavily mixed signals? what particular behaviors would be bound to confuse you?

well your post is a little hard to understand reyn but i think you're saying something like this:

he thinks you have a lot of Fe you're throwing at him when actually you have hardly any. but he thinks it because that's what he wants, since that's his dual seeking. but the fact that he would even think that you have all those intense feelings for him slaps your polr. to be accused of throwing around a lot of Fe is insulting first because it's so not who you are and second, even if it was who you are, it's not what you're good at.

yes, that is on target

you're looking more for a feeling of attraction via Fi and it's not there in any kind of acceptable quantity.

yes

it's like you both want things, things of an ethical nature, things that are slightly different, things that are in different dosages also, things that you are not going to get from the other person.

i think you've understood the problem well. fwiw, you often seem to get my gist.

[PotatoSpirit]

yes, ok. given that my intention has not been to give heavily mixed signals, and given the fact that i was unaware of doing so, i will ask:

how do you define heavily mixed signals? what particular behaviors would be bound to confuse you?

That's tougher than it sounds because they'd have to be clear signals or I wouldn't get them at all. And mixed or they wouldn't confuse me.

Maybe accepting a date right away with a smile, having a great time together, then refusing a few other dates for silly reasons, then asking me why I stopped asking her out, then not showing up the next time we have to meet.

Or if the relationship was more intimate to begin with, maybe saying she loves me and then she doesn't want to see me anymore?

Do keep in mind that I've never dated an INTp and this is only the less unlikely scenario I can think of.

[liveandletlive]

im sorry reyn. im not trying to play devil's advocate, but more to maybe explain how he's feeling in this whole thing. i've actually been wanting to do an aggressor rant recently so i guess this may be the place for it.

victims make us work for it. hard. to the point where sumtimes it's annoying to us and we're like c'mon just give in already- do i have to fight for everything? the smallest things victims will make me fight for and it gets exhausting sumtimes. don't get me wrong we love this initially but once we've established a significant relationship, we don't feel like there should be as much of a struggle for everything. he probably sees that u want him to work for it by your ILIness and is probably put off by the fact that (with him being a logical type as well) he too needs an ethical type to steer the relationship- say what is, where it's going, issues, whatever. he knows you need that and doesn't know how so it's all a role hit too. he may be interested but because his is weak, unvalued, and vulnerable the idea of trying to establish a relationship with you in the way you need him to scares him. idk, sry to get all dr.phil up in here... just sum thoughts...

[reyn_til_runa]

im sorry reyn. im not trying to play devil's advocate, but more to maybe explain how he's feeling in this whole thing. i've actually been wanting to do an aggressor rant recently so i guess this may be the place for it.

victims make us work for it. hard. to the point where sumtimes it's annoying to us and we're like c'mon just give in already- do i have to fight for everything? the smallest things victims will make me fight for and it gets exhausting sumtimes. don't get me wrong we love this initially but once we've established a significant relationship, we don't feel like there should be as much of a struggle for everything. he probably sees that u want him to work for it by your ILIness and is probably put off by the fact that (with him being a logical type as well) he too needs an ethical type to steer the relationship- say what is, where it's going, issues, whatever. he knows you need that and doesn't know how so it's all a role hit too. he may be interested but because his is weak, unvalued, and vulnerable the idea of trying to establish a relationship with you in the way you need him to scares him. idk, sry to get all dr.phil up in here... just sum thoughts...

idk, dr. phil seems to get off on making people suddenly aware of their downfalls. i cant imagine being on tv and realizing, "hey i am the worst mother in the world. i do not do housework, i dont pamper myself, i make eggs for dinner at least once a week, and i dont buy lingerie to please my husband"

funny thing is i wasn't even thinking of it as a Relationship. i should be punished.