Zeno of Citium (the Stoic Guy)

[Logos]

Zeno of Citium, the Founder of Stoicism
(Wikipedia Article)

[eunice]

Most likely Ti-INTj.

[Logos]

Interesting. It is a bit too soon to form too much of an opinion, but an INxj of some sorts appears to be suspected. Any particular reason why either of you picked that particular type?

[munenori2]

From the sculpture I would guess INFj, just because there is a level of concern there that would seem odd to an INTj. Also, as little as it matters, the stoic philosophy always appealed to me, though it also did my INTj brother. So less help than may be desired I suppose.

[Logos]

Additional busts and depictions:

[Logos]

From the sculpture I would guess INFj, just because there is a level of concern there that would seem odd to an INTj. Also, as little as it matters, the stoic philosophy always appealed to me, though it also did my INTj brother. So less help than may be desired I suppose.

What aspects of stoic philosophy typically appealed to you and your brother?

[force my hand]

How about Epictetus?

Sounds Delta.

[Logos]

With the vibrant discussion on Taoism, I thought it may be relevant to revive this thread and ask about Stoicism and its relation to Socionics theory.

[Logos]

What do you want me to say about it Logos.

I think he's Delta and he seems to VI as well as think like one.

Zeno is not Stoicism, which is what I am inquiring about now. What are the qualities of Socionics that are apparent in Stoicism?

[astralsilky]

What are the qualities of Socionics that are apparent in Stoicism?

Maybe Stoicism values Si.

Zeno and M.C. Escher seem like the same type (e.g., ILI. Definitely some Ni in there, at any rate.)

[Logos]

Zeno an ILI?

[astralsilky]

Zeno an ILI?

Yes, maybe.

Extreme Ni looks at the limits of definition, antidefinition, and pathways in-between. It skirts the boundaries (and is a bit nihilistic by nature).

[Phaedrus]

Though there are certainly many similarities between Taoism and Stoicism, Taoism is actually even more related to Cynicism.

[Logos]

I am sure Expat would not mind if I copied our message conversation about this, and if he does, then I will take it down.

Hey, I know that you were primarily more of a Roman history person, but I was just curious as to your thoughts on Zeno of Citium's type in the What's My Type section, especially since I used a bust for his visual and you had the VI via bust thread a while back. I have a few types suspected for him, but I'd prefer to get other outside arguments so that my own bias will be more tempered, so your input would be appreciated.

Zeno is actually first in line for a series of threads trying to identify the types of a host of philosophers and thinkers who have a similar underlying system in place, so I want to see if there is any type or function-based correlation, which may or may not be there.

I will write first here, then later when I think it over.

From the little I know of him (and of Stoicism generally), I think IJ temperament makes the most sense. Going further, I would think Alpha or Delta, perhaps more Delta. So EII, with LII as second choice.

It is not the main reason, but from his life and writings, I'm convinced that Marcus Aurelius was EII, and he seemed to find genuine comfort and meaning in Stoicism. Of course not all Stoics will be EII, but it's significant, perhaps, that he identified so strongly with it and wrote his thoughts on it down, apparently for relaxation.

Perhaps you can tell me if you see much Ti in Zeno; from what I see it's more like Ti role, that is, logically-seeming arguments that are actually Fi motivated.

Another way of looking at it would be this. His methods in life seem IJ, but at the same time following Si-Ne goals.

I prefer not to read too much of myself in the people that I type, so I was quite hesitant to type Zeno as an INTj. My conclusion of his type stopped at the IJ and Si-Ne goals. But I leaned more towards INFj for his type as the aim of stoicism is to act in accordance or harmony () with the dynamics of the world around them (). But what makes it appealing for IJs seems to be 1) an excuse to suppress their emotions, and 2) an inclination towards seeking to achieve a "state" of being already in place due to their static functions.

Chrysippus, the 2nd head of the Stoic School after Zeno and Cleanthes, does however seem to be an INTj. He was also apparently responsible for adding new concepts to stoicism as well as being one of the first ancient Greek thinkers to insist that 1 was in fact a number.

Though there are certainly many similarities between Taoism and Stoicism, Taoism is actually even more related to Cynicism.

Not from the approach I am taking with it.

[Phaedrus]

Not from the approach I am taking with it.

What do you mean by that? The Cynics and the early Taoists have more in common than the Stoics and the early Taoists. That is a fact. And that fact is certainly relevant to Socionics, because it is about the general attitudes they have and the philosophical contents of their world views.

[Logos]

What do you mean by that?

If I told you now, it could potentially invalidate the results. But the commonalities are there, relevant, and prevalent.

The Cynics and the early Taoists have more in common than the Stoics and the early Taoists. That is a fact. And that fact is certainly relevant to Socionics, because it is about the general attitudes they have and the philosophical contents of their world views.

Elaborate and compare please.

[munenori2]

Alright, after having done a little rereading on Stoicism. I'm quite shocked really in how much the general aspects of my descriptions of Taoism seem to capture pretty much all the main points that Zeno hammered out. My first comment in this thread was somewhat misleading though, so let me explain that before I start shooting off on tangents.

When my brother and I were young, we certainly hadn't been exposed to Stoicism per se. Yet, the two of us just seemed to come together in a shared mindset about dealing with the world. Of course, this manifested itself in pretty juvenile, childish ways. For example, we tried to be constant in the face of all outward circumstances, such as stubbornly refusing to change how we dressed as each season came and went. Basically, both of us more or less wore shorts and t-shirts every single day, no matter what. If it dropped below freezing, light jackets were acceptable, or pants if it had been snowing.

We shared a view that this would make us more resilient while also showing the world that it could change all it wanted; we wouldn't be carried along with it's fickleness. This is a very crude representation of anything Stoicism has to say, but I do think it shares some interesting parallels with it in a very, very basic sense. Our attitudes weren't even confined simply to these physical examples. Neither of us was openly emotionally expressive. Instead we just soldiered on through whatever was thrown in our way.

Don't know if all this musing is helpful at all, but that's probably the best explication I can give of what I meant by my first remark. Also, I notice that when I am seriously engaged in my work to this day, the Stoic mindset (setting aside all the periphery items like their metaphysics, etc) describes my approach with extreme precision. I think overall it is very IJ in temperament. Give me some more time to think and I'll be able to give a more lucid judgement.

[Logos]

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...7&postcount=67

Taoism has little if anything in common with Stoicism. It's more about the lack of restraint and a carefree lifestyle then anything... most of the western world's understanding of Taoism is thru academic scholar who couldn't be further away from the stereotypical "Taoist". Taoism is the philosophy/belief attitude of free-spirited youth.

Organized Taoism consistitute so few members of Chinese society, it is probably more accurate to label these sects "cults" or fringe groups. Their numbers in total are probably below the number of "taoists" who frequent the parks, libraries, clubs and bars in Beijing enjoying all the experience that the world offers in a single day.

I saw that, but my reading into this particular matter has indicated something different in this matter. And it is not just about whether or not Stoicism and Taoism is similar, because there is a common element that is, and it is that common element and its relation to the founders that I have an interest in. And I am not done with posting other people who are related in this matter.

[Logos]

Actually I am going to agree with you in a way, there is a common thread that does tie Stoicism and Taoism together. While the practices between the two systems are different, there is some similarities. Such as a deterministic, materialistic, naturalistic system of belief.

Getting closer, though you may disagree with my final assessment.

Stoicism is rational and / based rather then the irrational systems that Taoism espouses.

Not entirely. There seemed to be two sort of integral and non-exclusive schools or emphases of Stoicism depending upon the philosopher. The first of which reflects that of Zeno and Marcus Aurelius and was a static's concern of fitting their Fi ethics into a dynamic Te world and sought to study the world as a means of developing a system of ethics in response to it. But there was also a second school that is best represented by Chrysippus, who was more concerned about discerning the Ti as the logos and the relationship that existed in this static world.

[Logos]

What is your final assessment?

I have a few more thinkers to pump out first, and I did not want to post them all up at once, but let some consensus develop. The consensus for Lao Tzu still seems to be sitting on the fence, so I am going to wait a bit longer before the next one on the list.

I think there's a chance that Chrysippus might be a INTj, I will need to read more on him before I make that kind of assessment.

His page on Wikipedia as well as the article on Stoicism gives a peak into that, but he did not really leave anything behind to analyze.

[Logos]

I am still more inclined to think that Chrysippus is an INTj.

[Logos]

Hey Phaedrus, do you want to go ahead and incorrectly type Zeno as ILI too?

[Phaedrus]

Hey Phaedrus, do you want to go ahead and incorrectly type Zeno as ILI too?

I haven't looked into his type yet.