Jealousy and competition among Deltas

[liveandletlive]

hey deltas- i've been noticing how all the deltas i no show jealousy and competitiveness a lot... do u guys feel this way at all? i can give u guys examples if u want. what do u think this stems from? is it just with gammas?

[xyz]

jealous? not really. competitive, sure.

[Rubicon]

jealous? not really. competitive, sure.

competitive in what sort of things?

[xyz]

Competitive in sports and any kind of games, definitely....That's really all I can come up with.

[jessica129]

I'm not a jealous type. I can't really think of much that would make me jealous. But I'm very competitive at just about everything. I don't know where it stems from, that's just how it is. Fear of failure maybe? Dunno.

[munenori2]

Hmm, I'd say I'm actually neither that jealous nor competitive. The SLI I know can be competitive, similar to what LV said. My IEE friend is pretty easy-going. He can be competitive, but it's in a very playful way. The LSEs I know are very competitive on the job and one of them has a history of jealous behavior (in a party setting with lots of unknown people, alcohol, and the outgoing other half in their relationship [which has since ended]).

[Lobo]

hey deltas- i've been noticing how all the deltas i no show jealousy and competitiveness a lot... do u guys feel this way at all? i can give u guys examples if u want. what do u think this stems from? is it just with gammas?

I'd like to read examples of what you mean. I have definitely been jealous, but it has always been towards other people's overall relationships, especially ones that are happy and "open." For example, if I don't get along with a brother or a sister, and I see another person having the best of relationships, I can see myself getting jealous easily. If I want to hang out with someone I like, but someone else does it instead, then I might get jealous. Things like that. However, I never really get jealous of other people's posessions or social status, but I don't know if this would fall more under "envy"... Not to sound like gammas don't have things that are attractive to me, but I don't recall ever being jealous of gammas though. There are definitely some aspects of gammas that I would not at all mind having myself, but it hasn't reaced the point of jealousy.

I definitely do consider myself to be competitive especially in things that involve skill. ISTps and ESTjs beat me in that regard though... They're always in it to win. I'm not sure about ENFps, they don't really strike me as being competitive. In a way, I get the impression that they go above all that "winning and losing" mentality. But then again, it's only an impression.

[jessica129]

I have definitely been jealous, but it has always been towards other people's overall relationships, especially ones that are happy and "open." For example, if I don't get along with a brother or a sister, and I see another person having the best of relationships, I can see myself getting jealous easily.

This is the only thing I get jealous of. It's hard to see people in healthy, happy relationships and people who are able to be so open about their feelings for the other. This comes from me being an unemotional robot that sucks at relationships

[Lobo]

This is the only thing I get jealous of. It's hard to see people in healthy, happy relationships and people who are able to be so open about their feelings for the other. This comes from me being an unemotional robot that sucks at relationships

Well, there are people out there in life that like to open up unemotional robots for no apparent reason, other than maybe because they find it enjoyable. Yep, no reason whatsoever except for that... It's actually true

[Christy B]

I do not like being compared to others. I see everyone as individuals, and if I am compared to others I wonder why. I want to show that I am unique and interesting in my own ways.

I don't wish I had what others have, but I do want to prove to myself that who I am is important or special, and that I am doing what I "should" be doing.

I am competative with myself. I do not have ill wishes for anyone, but always think I should be trying harder to be better.

[munenori2]

I do not like being compared to others. I see everyone as individuals, and if I am compared to others I wonder why. I want to show that I am unique and interesting in my own ways.

I don't wish I had what others have, but I do want to prove to myself that who I am is important or special, and that I am doing what I "should" be doing.

I am competative with myself. I do not have ill wishes for anyone, but always think I should be trying harder to be better.

That is quite an excellent way of putting it.

[xyz]

This is the only thing I get jealous of. It's hard to see people in healthy, happy relationships and people who are able to be so open about their feelings for the other. This comes from me being an unemotional robot that sucks at relationships

Yeah i'm the same way. I don't know, I really can't help it, I don't like to lose in anything that involves skill.

[meatburger]

Im not really compeditive in most things. I do concentrate when i do something and try to reasonably good but its not something that i stress out about. My LIE, SLI and LSE friends are very compeditive though.

I get feelings of jealousy every now and then. I get jealous of people who seem to have a great deal of things going for them. For example my LSE friend is a doctor, is with a dual, comes from a rich family, psychologically stable, tall and good looking. I sometimes get flashes of it but its really only a fleeting thing.

I did feel jealousy in my relationships but they have all been ones of dubious levels of trust. My ex used to flirt with guys all the time. I tried to contain it as best as i could though. One time i left her to dance at a pub while we went to a nearby pool hall. When i came back she was in very close quarters to this guy. Seeing her like that was the straw that broke the camels back. I am not the type to compete for someones affections. I just left her there and drove off home. She ended up asking for me to take her back so i did but i found out she cheated on me soon afterwards. I definately wont be so forgiving in the future

[tiny_dancer]

I think I was more competitive when I was younger...depends on the situation, I guess.

Yeah, I get jealous of people in good relationships. Probably because I'm surrounded by duals and activity partners. All my friends are settled.

[anndelise]

From observing myself and my enfp friends...

Jealousies come from insecurities. If we are insecure about something (a relationship, an attachement's feelings for us, lack of basic needs being met, are we attractive enough, are we a good enough person, etc etc), then negative emotions will flair up which can easily be interepreted as jealousy. For ENFps, jealousy stems not so much from wanting something someone else has...but feeling the lack or deficiency of something.

Competition isn't a normal reaction from an ENFp. There's probably a number of things that could be behind it. Sometimes even the reactions to feeling lack or deficient in something can be interepreted as being competitive. I think each person would be different as to what may be causing this...as well as whether it IS actually competition and not something else.

On a personal note, however, when I've been around ESFps, I've felt with each one that they are forcing me into some kind of competition.

* One esfp friend would get really competitive when we'd go out dancing together. I'd just go to have fun. She'd get pissy if a guy would ask me to dance instead of her. I'm not looking to pick up a guy. But she seemed to feel better about herself if she was able to give the guy dancing with me HER number instead of me giving mine. If that's what she needed to feel good about herself, *shrugs*.

* One esfp friend of mine had an on-again-off-again relationship with a guy. I was a hypnotherapist at the time. He wanted to ask me for help as a hypnotherapist. But neither of us felt that it would be appropriate because of this esfp's tendency towards jealousy. Finally, after he left her again, she asked me to intervene, to talk with him. I told her that I didn't want to get involved, that I didn't want her to be upset with me if he talked with me about things that he didn't feel he could talk to her about, etc. She insisted. She insisted for nearly two weeks straight before she finally set us up to be in the same place alone together. (without her presence) Her way of forcing the situation. So finally he and I talked about some of the stuff he was dealing with. I gave him a few suggestions that I'd learned as a hypnotherapist. Different images he could give himself when he's faced in those troubling situations that might help him, etc. Things that were unique to him and his situation. We both knew that she would belittle his fears if she knew about them, so I agreed that I wouldn't share what we had discussed with her. And she had already promised me that she would allow the discussion to be private...she wouldn't try to get the info out of me, and she wouldnt' be upset about him talking to me. Two days later what happens? She's pissed off because he talked with me but won't talk to her about it. She starts in on this jealousy campaign telling us that maybe he and *I* should get together and forget about her, etc etc etc. Really pissed me off since SHE was the one who insisted that we talk as therapist/client...and then she turns it into some sexual/romantic thing?? It all was getting so bad that finally he told her what the discussion was about. And she LAUGHED at him, how could he be so troubled by panic attacks at work? He just needed to buck up, etc etc etc. Ultimately, she ripped him down, just like we knew she would. It destroyed their relationship. She held ME responsible for him leaving her completely. (Note: she wasn't exactly healthy....i refer to as they psychobitch from hell)

* My daughter is ESFp. If there is anything interesting in the house, SHE insists on having it for herself. I don't think she even recognizes that someone else may want it. For example, I buy her a video game and me a video game at the same time. She bugs me and bugs me about MY game until finally I cave and let her play my game and i play hers. Just as I start getting into the game, she starts bugging me wanting her game back, she's bored with mine now. At least until I start playing it again. I purchase her a container of ben and jerry's and me a container as well. She gobbles hers up in one night. Even after being told that that is the only snack we get for the whole weekend. I eat a little bit of mine here and there, it usually lasts further than a weekend. Except that once she is finished with hers, she starts bugging me about wanting some of mine. Everytime I go to eat some, she wants some. I won't give it to her, she already had hers. This is mine dammit. And she bugs and bugs and bugs until I've finally finished it. She does this with food, games, time, energy, etc. It's gotten to the point that I've begun hording and hiding things. Just so I can enjoy whatever in peace without her harrassing me for it. I hate the feeling. I hate the feeling of having to compete with her. I hate how much she takes and takes and takes and rarely gives.
(Note, my daughter IS beginning to give a little more. Nowadays she'll offer to share her own items with us, and last bday party she was at, she brought R and I a cupcake to share, she didn't want any. She's not as demanding of some things, but she definitely wants more than a fair share. I don't believe she recognizes how much she does this, and I think if she were ever to actually be aware of it...it would bother her to pieces. As she learns, the feeling of having to compete, horde, hide lessens.)

* My father, also, ESFp competed with my oldest brother a lot. And he had a tendency to eat a huge bowl of ice cream with chocolate syrup and whipped cream and nuts and cherries in front of us kids, while we were stuck with something really cheap. Or he'd snack on a plate of nachos in front of us, and get mad at us for looking at his food (he hadn't given us anything to snack on, just ate it in front of us). (I do wonder sometimes if perhaps we had done to him similar to what my daughter's done to me.) Much later in life, with my brothers gone, he'd buy all sorts of snack items, cookies, cakes, etc. And hide them in his room, but never buying anyone else in the household anything. (Note, he's not a healthy person either)


Anyways, my point wasn't necessarily to single out ESFps as being the instigators of competition. But L&LL being ESFp brought the esfps to mind that I know.

I'm more aware of insecurities in enfps and the ways that that shows up than I am about competitiveness, as competitiveness always seems to show up as a reaction to things being withheld, taken from, or forbidden the enfp, and it's always been a sign of long term stress from those things, and as such is unique to the situation/persons involved.

It's also quite possible that the competitiveness thing is due to lack of clear communication by both parties. And also one of those downward negative spiral things. Like, did my father start hording/hiding because of things kept from him when he was a kid? Did my daughter somehow interpret that I was hording/hiding (before I actually began hording/hiding) and was responding to that interpretation of hers..thus leading us into the downward spiral that led to me actually hording/hiding? There's lots of possibilities. And it would require clear communication on both parties, (without blaming either party), to get to the true root of the issue.

So if you're having these troubles with your enfp friends, try to find out what insecurities the enfp has that is leading to the seeming jealousy signals. And, if you dare, though it will most likely negatively affect the relationship if not done properly by BOTH parties, communicate clearly and without blame regarding the competitiveness. If there truly is competitiveness, check your own actions as well as something from the enfp's past that might be leading them to react so negatively (remember they are stressed out if they are competing) to your own actions (or whoever they seem to be competing with).

[Suomea]

....

[munenori2]

Anndelise, your daughter sounds remarkably like my ESFp sister. She has many of the same tendencies. In fact, she's nearly impossible to live with. She shared an apartment with my INTj brother (if I had been into socionics then, I might have raised some concerns, instead I was just vaguely unsettled by the idea) and it ended up destroying their relationship completely. Well, not completely, my brother is too nice a guy for that, but any interactions between them have a certain point beyond which they will go no further anymore. Additionally, every person she has roomed with has ended up a disaster resulting in one party or another leaving before the lease is up.

Her latest fiasco was her getting a dog. She wanted a pure-breed so she paid a ridiculous amount for it, then come to find that the seller kept the dogs in a horrible environment so that she ended up spending $1000 or so on vet bills shortly after (which was exacerbated because she's a hypochondriac herself and then she actually expected my parents to pay for all this for some odd reason). Finally, her potty-training efforts have been lax to say the least and she has this odd notion that everyone should clean up after her dog without complaint. Naturally since she hadn't consulted with her roommates about the decision, burdened them with the care of her dog, and threatened their security deposit with carpet damage, they decided to 'vote' her out of the apartment.

[Slacker]

Agree with Anndelise. I'm not particularly jealous or competitive, but there's this Se thing going with ESFps and I kind of get dragged into this weird thing with them. I used to feel that my ESFp sister-in-law (now ex) was competing with me all the time and it drove me crazy. And I've had a lot of ESFp friends in my life, and the only real problem we have is that I feel dragged into weird competitions, often over NOTHING, from time to time. I don't think she did it on purpose though. I think it's just natural for her to continually judge where she is on a power structure with other people (creative Se) and it made me uncomfortable, and I was probably clumsy in my response to it.

[iAnnAu]

I'm not jealous at all.
I'm competitive with myself, but when playing against others I am merely playful. In fact, I have a hard time remembering to keep score. I love to play noncompetitive stuff like frisbee and footbag (hackey sack). When I play table tennis & racquetball it's chaos - if the ball is moving, hit it! Lots of laughs to play chaos-pong ...

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I'm not jealous at all.
I'm competitive with myself, but when playing against others I am merely playful. In fact, I have a hard time remembering to keep score. I love to play noncompetitive stuff like frisbee and footbag (hackey sack). When I play table tennis & racquetball it's chaos - if the ball is moving, hit it! Lots of laughs to play chaos-pong ...

I second this. I don't really care if someone is better than me or not. I play for fun. I set myself high standards, and they don't necessarily have to be formed on the basis of what I think other people are or what or where they are. If I want to be good, I be good for me, cause in that circumstance I think I should do well.

[anndelise]

Agree with Anndelise. I'm not particularly jealous or competitive, but there's this Se thing going with ESFps and I kind of get dragged into this weird thing with them. I used to feel that my ESFp sister-in-law (now ex) was competing with me all the time and it drove me crazy. And I've had a lot of ESFp friends in my life, and the only real problem we have is that I feel dragged into weird competitions, often over NOTHING, from time to time. I don't think she did it on purpose though. I think it's just natural for her to continually judge where she is on a power structure with other people (creative Se) and it made me uncomfortable, and I was probably clumsy in my response to it.

I don't think my daughter does what she does on purpose either. And I know that I'm very sensitive to some of the things she does because my issues with my father and the things that HE does. So it is quite possible that sometime when my daughter was really really young, she did something normal, and I reacted because of my experience with my father, and then she reacted to my reaction and ...yep,....downward spiral.

And I don't think all ESFps are like that one psycho-bitch from hell that I mentioned above (nor my father). OMG, the stories I could tell of her, quite similar to munenori's. But even with the normal ESFps (the healthy ones), I just can't figure out how I got drawn into such weirdness in terms of competition, and yes, as you said, over absolutely nothing.

***
Since coming to socionics I've wondered how much of it could be from the aggressor/victim thing that ESFps come from, that whole push/pull thing that's sorta related to that. But whether or not that is involved, I do definitely think that it has something to do with the base Se (esfp) vs role Se (enfp) with both having Fi creative and both being EP/EFp. (I think even our Te HA differs in purpose/affect as well)

L&LL, is it primarily ENFps that you see this jealousy/competition stuff from or is it other deltans too? Can you give us some examples of what you were referring to?

[jewels]

I do prefer to win...but I don't like to gloat (makes others feel bad). But I do gloat on the inside.

I never had much of a competitive thing w/ ESFPs. Usually I felt ESFPs and me "got" eachother pretty well. Occasionally they might be more into a video game or something than me, but nothing enough to matter. Now w/ ESTPs I can see it could get ugly.

Oh...and as for the jealousy part...I almost never am jealous for what people have achieved/naturally have/have aquired. Because if they worked for it, I'm happy for them. If they're born w/ it, it wasn't up to them. However, I do get very jealous if a guy I'm dating flirts or looks at girls, etc, which is why I can't date guys who are like that.

[meatburger]

I do prefer to win...but I don't like to gloat (makes others feel bad). But I do gloat on the inside.

Yeah its funny i find that winning for me is half good and half bad. I get the boost of self esteem from winning but i have to put up with the other persons lowered mood because of it. Ive always liked cooperative video games a lot more. Sit down with my friend and beat other people or play fifa and beat the computer.

[tereg]

I do feel jealousy and competitive at times, I'll admit.

I can feel very intense during games... it depends on the game though. I wouldn't say it's all the time, like I wouldn't want to be too competitive if the situation doesn't call for it; I try to be mindful of that.

I work at a place where literally everyone that works there is either married, about to be married, or in a serious relationship. I feel a bit jealous, but it's very mild and when I harbor those thoughts I just shove it aside. I do have feelings of jealousy at times if there's a girl that I really like, but she's in a seemingly happy/healthy relationship with another person. But I usually just eat the reality and just live with it, since there's nothing I can do to change those types of things. It still kind of sucks though.

Some of the best friends that I've had over the past 10 years are all married (in happy marriages) and have children. While I'm happy for them, of course, I can't help but feel at times like life is just kind of floating on by.

I try not to think about things like this too much, but it's almost inevitable that I think about them from time to time.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

ENFp's are kinda competitive?!

[xyz]

I hate it when I lose, and I question my real skills when I win.


Fun! But, I'm glad I don't get dragged into weird shit with ESFps.

[snegledmaca]

Under the assumption that I am delta, I have never been jealous or competitive. However on might say that I've never had any justification to be jealous. Regarding the competitive part, I might play to win, but whether I win or lose is irrelevant in comparison to whether I found it enjoyable or not, that is, the "need to win" cannot override my enjoyment, that is, I would not go for the win if I am not enjoying myself. But now one might say that the prospect of winning is the enjoyment, but this is not the case for me. So I guess I would say that jealousy and competitiveness are subjective and circumstance dependent.

ENFp's are kinda competitive?!

My friend most certainly is. Unhealthily so I would say. But I would say that is largely dependent on circumstances, he was brought up playing computer games with his uncle, it was all about keeping score, who won more times, what kind of a victory it was and so on.

[JuJu]

In terms of competition, in the past I've tried to make it look as though I don't care, but I do... I've been competitive at everything from H-O-R-S-E to who received the highest SATs in high school. All of that crap... Maybe this is unusual for ENFps..? I'm from a pretty competitive family, e.g. achievements encouraged, failures=shame... Perhaps it's not natural for me to be so competitive though--I've noticed that since I've been living away from my family/friends who are jocks, I've mellowed considerably.

As to jealousy--if someone is way better than me at something, I might feel jealous, but generally I feel proud of them... My attitude is: it's great that there are people in this world who are skilled at (certain) things--it enriches everyone's life...

As to what tereg said about being a lil jealous of other peoples' circumstances, I'd be lying if I said I never felt it...

[tereg]

In terms of competition, in the past I've tried to make it look as though I don't care, but I do... I've been competitive at everything from H-O-R-S-E to who received the highest SATs in high school. All of that crap... Maybe this is unusual for ENFps..? I'm from a pretty competitive family, e.g. achievements encouraged, failures=shame... Perhaps it's not natural for me to be so competitive though--I've noticed that since I've been living away from my family/friends who are jocks, I've mellowed considerably.

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel. I've mellowed a lot since I've lived alone.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Competing is stressful. Let us consider, when being the best, does that mean the best in our job, the best in our exam, or the best in our lives? It's all about adding everything up, I reckon.

[liveandletlive]

i've mostly seen competition from delta STs and jealousy from delta NFs. idk why i've seen this so much with delta... it's really odd to me- maybe because u dont have but u have ? i really have no clue.

[meatburger]

I do feel jealousy and competitive at times, I'll admit.

I work at a place where literally everyone that works there is either married, about to be married, or in a serious relationship. I feel a bit jealous, but it's very mild and when I harbor those thoughts I just shove it aside. I do have feelings of jealousy at times if there's a girl that I really like, but she's in a seemingly happy/healthy relationship with another person. But I usually just eat the reality and just live with it, since there's nothing I can do to change those types of things. It still kind of sucks though.

Some of the best friends that I've had over the past 10 years are all married (in happy marriages) and have children. While I'm happy for them, of course, I can't help but feel at times like life is just kind of floating on by.

I try not to think about things like this too much, but it's almost inevitable that I think about them from time to time.

Yep that sums me up perfectly. Dont worry though, life floats on by for people in relationships too. The grass is always greener on the other side and they are nomally also squandering their lives in some way or another. I have figured that one of the biggest bonuses to being single is the freedom it affords. So at the end of the year im leaving. You never know, my friends might even be a little jealous of me

Ive never felt this thing from ESFp's before though, but ive never been that close to them.

[xyz]

Yep that sums me up perfectly. Dont worry though, life floats on by for people in relationships too. The grass is always greener on the other side and they are nomally also squandering their lives in some way or another. I have figured that one of the biggest bonuses to being single is the freedom it affords. So at the end of the year im leaving. You never know, my friends might even be a little jealous of me

Ive never felt this thing from ESFp's before though, but ive never been that close to them.

The grass is always greener. Just remember all the nagging, fellas!

[Singu]

i've mostly seen competition from delta STs and jealousy from delta NFs. idk why i've seen this so much with delta... it's really odd to me- maybe because u dont have but u have ? i really have no clue.

This is really interesting that liveandletlive's personal experience seems to match the Stratiyevskaya's description of Deltas.

Basically, all the Deltas that are saying that they're not jealous are liars. LIARS!!!!!!!!!! LIARRRRRRR. (kidding, I don't really care).

[Delilah]

LSE and SLI are really into avoiding errors and really start projecting on that, this seems to maybe somewhat spill onto other areas?

Like LIE may even say go ahead and err and learn from it - so different from SLI and LSE; probably some kind of attitude comes out of it;