What members of Alpha think of lying

[HandiAce]

I was wondering what you Alpha types think about lying?

I had this discussion the other day in a chatroom where I believed that if people didn't lie, the world would be better off. An ILE type insisted on the opposite.

What's up here?

[jet city woman]

ahaha I saw that conversation, or a similar one at least.

ILEs generally believe in lying/bullshitting lol.....and they use various rationalizations and mechanisms to prove to themselves that what they are doing is okay.
Other types are liars too. Not to say they aren't or can't be (LIE comes to mind, when it comes to conning/bullshitting, although they don't seem to be nearly as honest about doing so, which is the irony of it). But no one does it quite like an ILE.

[force my hand]

I had this discussion the other day in a chatroom where I believed that if people didn't lie, the world would be better off.

That would work if people voided all manner of social interaction that required any sort of approval, confirmation or consensus to be conferred. IMO, "yes, it makes you look fat," would be the least of our concerns...

[Roro]

Sometimes a little white lie is necessary. Think about going in for a job interview for, say, a sales position:

Interviewer: Tell me, are you good with people?
Interviewee: No, I'm pretty bad in dealing with them and I would rather not deal with them.

vs.

Interviewer: Tell me, are you good with people?
Interviewee: Yes. I love people and can relate well to most.

Which would you hire? Lies are necessary for survival sometimes.

[Slacker]

I see a difference between lying and deceit. Like some lies are to intentionally deceive people, and some are to smooth over a social situation, or to make someone feel better (or not as bad), or whatever. And there are circumstances where you can be deceitful without outright lying. So I think lying can be ok, but deceit is wrong.

[Slacker]

Oh I thought of another lying situation - where something isn't someone's business. I have no problem lying to protect my privacy.

[cracka]

Sometimes a little white lie is necessary. Think about going in for a job interview for, say, a sales position:

Interviewer: Tell me, are you good with people?
Interviewee: No, I'm pretty bad in dealing with them and I would rather not deal with them.

vs.

Interviewer: Tell me, are you good with people?
Interviewee: Yes. I love people and can relate well to most.

Which would you hire? Lies are necessary for survival sometimes.

If you're in an interview for a job where you actually have to be good with people, and you're not... You shouldn't be interviewing for that job. Find a job where being good with people isn't something you need to worry about. There... No lie needed.

[Roro]

If you're in an interview for a job where you actually have to be good with people, and you're not... You shouldn't be interviewing for that job. Find a job where being good with people isn't something you need to worry about. There... No lie needed.

That's like going for an interview at McDonalds and them turning you down because you have never made a hamburger before. It's called on-the-job training.

[Gravolez]

I am no alpha but:
Lies are necessary. They are part of the social protocol just like the greetings which are often spoken without realizing what the words actually mean. For example if you are a racist but you hide it then there is not much damage done. But if you are honest about it you might get in trouble. You cannot tell the truth to all people all the time without getting shunned, beaten or even killed.

[ashlesha]

I am no alpha but:
Lies are necessary. They are part of the social protocol just like the greetings which are often spoken without realizing what the words actually mean. For example if you are a racist but you hide it then there is not much damage done. But if you are honest about it you might get in trouble. You cannot tell the truth to all people all the time without getting shunned, beaten or even killed.

i don't have a problem with your premise but the racist example is weird. people do a lot more damage by hiding their racism and acting on it implicitly than by declaring it openly and making themselves jokers in the eyes of "society." and being honest inspires more dialogue and productive conflict in contrast to reading from pc scripts and then doing your own thing in private.

[Gravolez]

Prejudices of any kind are not punishable by law as long as you keep them to yourself. It is the acts (and words/statements/documents sometimes) that are punishable and do damage, so by lying and hiding your opinion (on racism) you prevent yourself and the others around you from being dealt damage. Being openly racist leads to violence(and verbal abuse) unto others and possibly to retaliation(physical and or verbal). And that's the purpose of anti-discrimination laws - to avoid or diminish confrontation of any kind.

There is no clear line between white lies and bad lies and from intentional and unintentional misinformation, especially if you are the person who is being duped.
My opinion on the subject is that you cannot really justify just one kind of lying or misinformation.
Fortunately lying is not easy, especially in live communication, that is why businessmen travel all around the world for meetings (has anyone played "Ultimate Werewolf" or similar games ) instead of writing or talking online. So whoever can pull if off and get away with it ... good job.

There was a movie with Jim Carrey: "Liar, Liar" that is a good illustration of a smallscale totally telling the truth.
I am not even sorry for that rant

[HandiAce]

I am no alpha but:
Lies are necessary. They are part of the social protocol just like the greetings which are often spoken without realizing what the words actually mean. For example if you are a racist but you hide it then there is not much damage done. But if you are honest about it you might get in trouble. You cannot tell the truth to all people all the time without getting shunned, beaten or even killed.

Ok you're right. In essence, everyone lies. To me, though, the only reason I would ever lie would be to avoid a conflict. Other than that, I tend not to spew bullshit out of my mouth and don't see a point in lying.

[jet city woman]

Other than that, I tend not to spew bullshit out of my mouth and don't see a point in lying.

I hope you've at least tried the methods. Every now and then, it can be renewing.

[mu4]

Sometimes you lie because people won't believe the truth.

I don't care about lying these days, it's sadism and malice that bother me.

[Gravolez]

Interestingly the 10 commandments do not forbid lying but rather framing ("bear false witness")

[Simon Ssmall]

That's like going for an interview at McDonalds and them turning you down because you have never made a hamburger before. It's called on-the-job training.

On the job training for dealing with people? So far I haven't seen something like this come into action.

[Roro]

On the job training for dealing with people? So far I haven't seen something like this come into action.

You learn how to transform yourself when the time calls for it.

[Simon Ssmall]

You learn how to transform yourself when the time calls for it.

I have seen people to get better at it but never seen someone becoming good at it when they weren't before. We normally filter through people fairly easy during the first interview so in my mind such question is unnecessary in the first place.

[7154413]

I hate being lied to. I hate it so much to the point of stopping communication with the person...

on the contrary, I lie. Sometimes its about nothing, and other times its a really big lie.
I'll lie to get myself out of certain situations, make up something about myself, or make up something about someone I don't like.
Also, I'll do it just for the sake of a good story, but that's more like "extending the truth"

yeah, lying is needed in certain situations and for survival, but I tend to hold grudges against people that do it to me. Even if I do it too.

[munenori2]

Ha I was going to be honest in this thread but then I realized I'd probably wind up lying about it. For a lot of reasons, really. Like laughing at jokes people made even if you think they're just alright or you don't even get them. Smiling when you're pissed and chatting with people you kind of loathe at the moment. Getting out of stuff you don't want to do that day. Lots of tiny things you say or do to make things smoother and avoid conflict. I'm not saying that's a great thing. In fact, I'm pretty ambivalent about even mentioning all this because I just hate the thought that maybe someone reading this will start to wonder if I really think they're funny or if I'm just being nice to them or something. It makes my life easier and I think it makes other people's lives easier, if by easy you mean less time fighting or dealing with unpleasant shit. Overall though I still say I like most people, in one way or another.

I also don't want to make it sound like it's a purely conscious choice and maybe I'm lying to myself. It's hard to tell what I think sometimes or who I am down in the core when I'm with other people, like I'm almost a purely situational animal. Part of it is I really don't want to hurt anybody, so you mirror people, sort of sink into their expectations and play a role until you have to get away and not have to deal with what others want or need or expect from you. I don't know if that's a fear of rejection or being pushed away. Anyway, I guess I'm not really talking about lying anymore so I'm going to stop.

[ClownsandEntropy]

I don't necessarily lie, but I fudge the truth. Things like pretending you like something because you want to seem friendly, or that you're happy getting a certain mark when you're actually beating yourself up about it, in order to not appear arrogant. Last year, I lied on an application talking about how much I liked my school so I would appear good to be selected for something (being vague here so no one from my school can find me!). Anyway, it's not like a wish ill on my school, I still like it to an extent, so it's hardly a big lie.

Lying's great, though! If we didn't lie, I would have to tell people how much I hate them, or that I hate things they like. Us humans are far too fragile for too much truth.

[Aquagraph]

I never tell the truth. It's all just a bunch of fairy tales.

[Aquagraph]

I don't care about lying these days, it's sadism and malice that bother me.

When do you lie?