On the EIE dominance of US presidential primaries since 1972

[Expat]

Something I think I have noticed.





George McGovern




Jimmy Carter





Ronald Reagan





Bush 43




Barack Obama


Would-be example:



John Edwards


Guest star (but also EIE):



Dan Quayle

Yes, I do think they are all EIEs. Not so sure yet about Carter and McGovern. On the other hand, I think John Kerry could be one, too.

[redbaron]

whoa, interesting!

"guest star" LOL

[lefty]

Something I think I have noticed.

just because they're all exhibiting Fe in those photos i think youve totally failed to really evaluate their character. Bush is pretty clearly an ISFJ or an ISTP or some other type of jackass, and reagan...he was an actor...i feel insulted even seeing his photo mixed in with the others. He was a gamma or a delta most certainly. Carter I'm unsure of but am pleased to have been born while he was in office...Edwards I'm not convinced that he's not gamma. Now barack...perhaps a rare true ENFJ.

p.s. and dan quayle i'd say and isfj or an delta/estj and quite a dipshit at that and mcgovern i obviously respect. oh...and fuck john kerry. there are people who think he was complicit in bush getting elected the second time and he's a sell out with his dick up his ass and i had a strange feeling about him when he was running and after the tazering incident when andrew meyer asked him about skull and cross bones i think kerry is a total cocksucker (no offense to literal cock suckers out there).

[Expat]

just because they're all exhibiting Fe in those photos i think youve totally failed to really evaluate their character.

And you think THAT's the basis for my typing? Ridiculous.

If you want to know how I go about typing celebrities, take a look at the articles I've written (also on Reagan) in the wiki. I'm obviously not always right, but I don't type in such a frivolous way. I posted pictures because that makes such threads more interesting, and yes, they add VI information; but they are not the "evidence" for my typing.

[lefty]

And you think THAT's the basis for my typing? Ridiculous.

If you want to know how I go about typing celebrities, take a look at the articles I've written (also on Reagan) in the wiki. I'm obviously not always right, but I don't type in such a frivolous way. I posted pictures because that makes such threads more interesting, and yes, they add VI information; but they are not the "evidence" for my typing.

i dont have to look at your articles im an intuitive myself.


i have to say, though, that i do appreciate a forum in which to debate this kind of thing...i'm just giving you my 2 cents, btw, and i just disagree with you.

Oh and I may be typing frivolously, in your opinion, but I have to say I feel like I'm perfecting it in real life.

Peace,

[JuJu]

Jimmy Carter, out of all of those, seems an outlier in terms of personality... He comes across as very laid-back compared with these other men--that said, he has one of the typical ENFj looks.

*Barack Obama=definite ENFj
*Edwards=definite ENFj... When he was running in '04, I considered ESFp; however, there is no Fi there, despite his attempts to conjure it via populist descriptions.
*Bush 43=probably ENFj... The other type I've seriously considered is ISFj, as mentioned... He doesn't come across as articulate as the others listed, (perhaps as a result of dyslexia,) which makes him difficult to type...
*Reagan=possibly ESFj, IMO... I just read the wiki though--you've made a very good case IMO, Expat... I'm leaning toward ENFj for him after reading it.

John Kerry... I'm very interested to read a case for ENFj... He was widely typed as ENFp, but IMO, ENFp does not fit him.

I don't know enough about Quayle or McGovern to type them accurately.

[Expat]

Jimmy Carter, out of all of those, seems an outlier in terms of personality... He comes across as very laid-back compared with these other men--that said, he has one of the typical ENFj looks.

I'm not sure about Carter either. He baffles me; but not for being "laid-back". In his case, I freely admit to making the best out of a difficult case.

John Kerry... I'm very interested to read a case for ENFj... He was widely typed as ENFp, but IMO, ENFp does not fit him.

All I can say is that, observing him on tv in 2004, he seemed to be very Fe-aware, in the sense of what others could be thinking in that area. I don't have a good case put together; INFp has been suggested, I think it's possible.

[munenori2]

i dont have to look at your articles im an intuitive myself.

lol, that's some intuition if you can read his mind AND know he's wrong without even looking.

[Park]

Screw the Olympics!

[Expat]

lol, that's some intuition if you can read his mind AND know he's wrong without even looking.

"As you can see, my Jedi powers are far beyond yours" - Count Doku in Episode I

That's why I wonder, sometimes, if I am not indeed a LSE -- such intuition is beyond my grasp.

[xyz]

i dont have to look at your articles im an intuitive myself.

bahahaha

Who needs this "reading", amirite?

[Wittmont]

I doubt all of those guys are the same type. I have a really hard time to see Carter and George W Bush as the same type for example. Carter is highly empathic for one thing, and he paid a high price for that politically. Remember his 'Malaise" speech? Carter got so much stick for that from his political enemies both Democratic and Republican. The Republicans used that as a tool to get Reagan elected and again Reagan and Carter are very contrasting characters.

George W Bush is definitely not empathic. His complete inability to empathise is one of his key characteristics. Bush is goofy whereas Carter is always sober. And so on.

[Expat]

Which is exactly why I think it's a mistake to type people by benchmarking.

[Wittmont]

Which is exactly why I think it's a mistake to type people by benchmarking.

Hmm, Model A was developed to described observed behaviour was it not? Not the other way round.

People do not fall into a certain Model A type because that is their predetermined type, but are a certain Model A type because their behaviour is best explained by a certain Model A definition, correct?

It makes no sense to me if a person is a typed as a certain Model A type but nothing in his behavior really matches the observed behaviour that is the foundation behind the creation of that type of character.

[Expat]

Yes, but it is necessary to see how those behavior traits relate to functions.

I see Carter's reference to "malaise", and appearing on tv wearing warm clothes indoors to "motivate" people to save energy, etc, as much a manifestation of Fe focus as Obama's "yes you can" thing.

Likewise, there is not such a thing as a "goofy type" or a "sober type". Different types will be one, or the other, for different reasons.

[discojoe]

Why do you think Bush is EIE?

[Wittmont]

Yes, but it is necessary to see how those behavior traits relate to functions.

I see Carter's reference to "malaise", and appearing on tv wearing warm clothes indoors to "motivate" people to save energy, etc, as much a manifestation of Fe focus as Obama's "yes you can" thing.

Likewise, there is not such a thing as a "goofy type" or a "sober type". Different types will be one, or the other, for different reasons.

I think Carter and Bush approach problems from a very different perspective. Carter is strong in Fi, his humanism and compassion is legendary. Watch his defence of the Palestinian people for example. I agree Bush is Fe valuing and probably Beta. But I think Bush, if Beta, is SLE rather than EIE much that it pains me to say so (I'd rather he was LSE like his dad ). Bush has no Fi to speak of at all. Bush has no problem running people over with bulldozers. Carter does.

When I talked about goofy and sober I was commenting on their behaviour. One trait of IEI's is that they are supposed to be 'goofy' as a result of their NiFe'ness. Bush frequently behaves 'goofy' in order to create a certain atmosphere around him (he uses goofy nicknames of people, and can use gestures etc to create a joking Fe atmosphere). I think Carter would find it hard do something like that consciously I suspect. That is what I meant with more 'sober' behaviour for him.

[Suomea]

...

[JuJu]

Carter on Hardball re: Obama:



I also believe that INFj may be Carter's type... (It's strange to consider types from opposing quadras, but this is one of those not particularly clear-cut cases...) At 5:20 or so, he talks about why he wrote this particular book--it's revealing.

[macysmama]

I was 8 when Reagan came into office and he had a profound effect on a little girl. He made me feel safe and connected. He was my first impression of a president. Sweet, caring, funny, caretaker, down to earth. It sucks that no other president since has had his carisma for me.

[Expat]

Why do you think Bush is EIE?

Well, I've been reading a few books, especially Dead Certain and The Bush Tragedy. The person described there, as per the eyes of those who know him well, fits EIE best imo; and there are also detailed descriptions of those who work closest to him, and to me, a consistent picture of their types, and their relationships with Bush, emerges - which is however difficult for me to describe without quoting large portions of the books.

But, anyway - and that is the reason for the title Dead Certain - Bush's self-image, and how he is seen by others, is that he's someone who needs to be "dead certain" of the rightness of his decisions, as in, that's the right thing to do, I fully believe it, and that's the only way to persuade others - as a perfect contrast to Bush 41, who was more into wanting to hear all possible viewpoints all the time in order to have the fullest information.

At the same time, Bush likes to have people around who can feed him "certainty" in specific things, a role filled most of the time by Karl Rove, "Bush's brain". I think it all points to Ti dual-seeking.

I think the types of the "main players" are:

- Bush 43 - EIE
- Bush 41 - LSE
- Cheney - LIE
- Rice - ESI
- Rove - IEI

I think Jeb Bush may be LIE, and a lot of Bush 43's "dysfunctional" personality may be due to having Te-valuing parents who actually saw much more of a future in the younger son, Jeb - all until when Bush 43 was 40 or so.

Cheney's partnership with Bush works because he handles the actual running of the country - he's "the management", as Rove used to refer to him - while Bush 43 and Rove took the "big decisions", not realizing how much power "the management" actually has in doing the things they regard as of less importance. This is something I have observed many times in business environments.

I think Carter and Bush approach problems from a very different perspective. Carter is strong in Fi, his humanism and compassion is legendary. Watch his defence of the Palestinian people for example.

I don't think this is at all inconsistent with EIE, and not necessarily related to Fi.

I agree Bush is Fe valuing and probably Beta. But I think Bush, if Beta, is SLE rather than EIE much that it pains me to say so (I'd rather he was LSE like his dad ). Bush has no Fi to speak of at all. Bush has no problem running people over with bulldozers. Carter does.

Carter sacked about half of his cabinet in one go, in 1979 I think (I can get the precise references later), in order to save his own sinking presidency, trying to show he was still in control -- which in fact made people think the precise opposite.

Carter has a carefully-projected image as the guy you described - he has to, since he wanted to portray himself as the anti-Nixon. But I think he runs over people with bulldozers whenever it suits him.

When I talked about goofy and sober I was commenting on their behaviour. One trait of IEI's is that they are supposed to be 'goofy' as a result of their NiFe'ness. Bush frequently behaves 'goofy' in order to create a certain atmosphere around him (he uses goofy nicknames of people, and can use gestures etc to create a joking Fe atmosphere). I think Carter would find it hard do something like that consciously I suspect. That is what I meant with more 'sober' behaviour for him.

I think it is all consistent with both being Fe-focused; but the kind of Fe Carter needs people to associate with him is different.

[JuJu]

- Bush 43 - EIE
- Bush 41 - LSE
- Cheney - LIE
- Rice - ESI
- Rove - IEI

I think you've got it right here in each case... Cheney as LIE being, probably, the most controversial typing of the bunch... Over time, rational>irrational has become increasingly obvious for Cheney, IMO... (For a long time, I considered ISTj for Cheney; however, his facility with Te seems too strong, vs. his facility with Ti, which I haven't seen manifested.) Here is an interview that illustrates his preference for Te rather clearly.



Jeb Bush as LIE--I believe that you've got this right too... To me, Jeb comes across as more reasonable/compassionate than his brother, W, (probably due to Jeb's Te/Fi preference.)

As to Carter, you raise some interesting points for ENFj, e.g. deciding to sack his cabinet in one fell swoop to rally public support... Fi base/creative/valuing types, (I've noticed--in others and myself,) often feel deep personal loyalties, and thus would find it very difficult to do something like this...

John Kerry, I believe, after having watched a few interviews, may be INFp, (Beta NF nonetheless.) He has a quiet, brooding quality, and a physiognomy that's pretty typical for INFps... In watching some of his '04 speeches--"please kill me" boring, btw--I perceive that he had some strong/bad advisers, and that Kerry was listening to them... And trying too hard. E.g. Kerry looked so uncomfortable in certain settings--wearing 'man-of-the-people' clothes, entering arenas with fists pumping to Bruce Springsteen/Van Halen songs, wearing big fake smiles, his teeth chemically whitened to the color of a toilet... IMO, this was a INFp (Kerry) attempting to put across an image comparable to his idol, Kennedy (ENFj IMO.) He would've been better off running as himself, i.e. as a thoughtful INFp--he might have won.

[Ritella]

I really think ENFP for Kerry makes more sense. In interviews he seems to be really Se, Fe devaluing. His mannerisms have that slightly scattered, open, friendly look that ENFPs have. It just seems like he's trying to be a little more serious/stereotypically male. All the interviews I've seen of INFPs have this real focus on the interviewer that I'm not seeing in Kerry.
From his interviews: there are a few in which he makes comments like "i'm just being myself," "why can't i be be both [a] and [b]?" More important is that he has this really self-certain, unapologetic attitude about his self actualization. Also, when someone asked him whether he was upset with his wife for making a stupid comment he responded by saying something like "she is really great at being opinionated. i love that about her" followed by "people make mistakes. it's not a big deal." The first part, pointing out his wife's strengths, seems really ENFP to me. The second part seems really stereotypically Delta.

[Ritella]

also, Kerry reminds me of my ENFP friend.






Don't quote!

[JuJu]

From his interviews: there are a few in which he makes comments like "i'm just being myself," "why can't i be be both [a] and [b]?" More important is that he has this really self-certain, unapologetic attitude about his self actualization. Also, when someone asked him whether he was upset with his wife for making a stupid comment he responded by saying something like "she is really great at being opinionated. i love that about her" followed by "people make mistakes. it's not a big deal." The first part, pointing out his wife's strengths, seems really ENFP to me. The second part seems really stereotypically Delta.

Haha! true... I would take the same attitude if someone were to ask me about my wife (hypothetical wife, lol,) in that way... "She's her own person."

Also, Kerry does look a lot like your friend.



(at about 1:40... "I'm not STUPID," lol... He comes across as much different, and sensible, in this sit-down interview than he does in those wind-bag speeches.)

[Ritella]

Yes, Kerry - ENFP. The speeches are not very informative IMO.
I'm really interested in typing John Edwards, particularly because of the news about his marital affair. Any type can cheat, but the speech he gave explaining his transgressions might give insight into his type.
(Paraphrasing)
1. He said that he denied allegations during his campaign that he had had an affair and fathered a child because both clauses of that statement were not true. [Way to use logic in such a deceitful way...] He now realizes that telling 99% of the truth is not the same as telling the truth.
2. His reason for having the affair was that he "believed that [he] was special, became increasingly ego-centric and narcissistic."
Would an Se ego (or valuing) type be more likely to have power go to his head?
3. In what I think was a manipulative, backhanded ploy to deflect attacks upon him by preempting them, he proceeds to say "you can beat me up, but believe me I have already done it to myself and suffered."
[Oh poor baby. Now you've made me feel sorry for you. UCK]

[Ms. Kensington]

also, Kerry reminds me of my ENFP friend.

your friend looks like my ENFp coworker.

[Expat]

1. He said that he denied allegations during his campaign that he had had an affair and fathered a child because both clauses of that statement were not true. [Way to use logic in such a deceitful way...] He now realizes that telling 99% of the truth is not the same as telling the truth.

Well that's the same thing with Clinton and precise definitions of what "sexual relations" are. I think it has more to do with being a lawyer than with type. Lawyers (any lawyer here may correct me) are trained to grasp at such straws.

2. His reason for having the affair was that he "believed that [he] was special, became increasingly ego-centric and narcissistic."
Would an Se ego (or valuing) type be more likely to have power go to his head?

I think the danger of "believing he was special" is characteristic of Beta.

3. In what I think was a manipulative, backhanded ploy to deflect attacks upon him by preempting them, he proceeds to say "you can beat me up, but believe me I have already done it to myself and suffered."
[Oh poor baby. Now you've made me feel sorry for you. UCK]

That's Fe focus, exactly the same as when people say "I am SHOCKED" or "this makes me wanna puke" or "now you're making me really angry" or "this is disgusting". Calling attention to what they are feeling. Of course, in many people it causes the reaction you described, as in "and I am supposed to care?"

[JuJu]

Well that's the same thing with Clinton and precise definitions of what "sexual relations" are. I think it has more to do with being a lawyer than with type. Lawyers (any lawyer here may correct me) are trained to grasp at such straws. I think the danger of "believing he was special" is characteristic of Beta.

You got it (So glad I decided not to go to law school!!)

That's Fe focus, exactly the same as when people say "I am SHOCKED" or "this makes me wanna puke" or "now you're making me really angry" or "this is disgusting". Calling attention to what they are feeling. Of course, in many people it causes the reaction you described, as in "and I am supposed to care?"

Yes, Edwards wields Fe masterfully--note how he escaped that fiasco comparably unscathed, (as compared w/ other high-profile, American politicians in recent sex scandals.)

Good point, Expat--one of Beta quadra's values: believing that one is unique and special... IMO, Edwards is EIE.

Expat, have any more insights re: Kerry..? So far we've got his club (NF,) but can't seem to agree on his quadra values.

[Expat]

Watching some videos, also old ones, my best guess for Kerry is INFp. But, I can't substantiate it as well as with my typing of Bush.

[Logos]

I was am inclined to type Kerry as IEE.

[Ritella]

Expat, all the stuff you said about Edwards makes sense. I got a Beta vibe from him but wasn't sure why.
I still don't really see Kerry as INFP. I really think Kerry and Edwards could be an ENFP-ESTP interaction which, in my experience, works out really well when the ENFP is providing the vision for the ESTP to defend.
Can someone please also explain why "unique vision" or whatever is Beta? (I recall seeing this in another thread as well.) I agree that Beta NFs have this concern, but I don't think it's a distinctly Beta obsession. (I somewhat define myself by how "unique" my perceptions on things are.) I would argue that Delta NFs share this same concern as Betas, but in a different way. Perhaps the distinction is that I'm more concerned with how unique my thoughts or point of view is, rather than my external self image, and i care only whether those whom I've deemed "important" notice this quality in me, rather than the entire world.

[Expat]

Can someone please also explain why "unique vision" or whatever is Beta? (I recall seeing this in another thread as well.) I agree that Beta NFs have this concern, but I don't think it's a distinctly Beta obsession. (I somewhat define myself by how "unique" my perceptions on things are.) I would argue that Delta NFs share this same concern as Betas, but in a different way.

blocked with , or, as I think it helps to illustrate (it's the same thing), + in the same quadra.