Example of INFp's Low Se

[Pole]

I know an IEI male in real life. He is incredibly lazy and unmotivated. He has an excuse for everything, and no goals in life. He comes alive through text and facebook (about feelings, emo lyrics, political ideals) but in person he is apathetic and boring. We went to the gym and he acted like I was his personal trainer all of a sudden. I told him all of the machines had the illustrated diagrams with instructions written on them. He acted like this was too much work to deal with and decided instead to follow me around and launch into political rants while I worked out. I feel like I am wasting my breath around IEI, they act like they need your motivation and that only you can light a fire under their ass but then when you encourage them they drag their heels and groan about life's unfair circumstances and that they are unique and can't be helped. As an LSI I can say that not even the SLE can fix a poor attitude in IEI. (The EIE there seemed quite dominant and take charge in comparison, even though the ENFJ male seemed submissive in his disposition to an extent.) I think duality is overrated, at least in unhealthy people.

[marooned]

perhaps once things are bad enough, two quadra members are needed:

1. EIE to bitch slap IEI and tell it to stop being so pathetic and call it on its shit (this will upset the IEI - emotions are motivating)
2. once IEI has been sufficiently bitch slapped and isn't going on with its excuses (is ready to improve so as to be less upset), it will respond well to SLE

only then will it be able to work with LSI

--

eta: i think that when one isn't able to get their life to work, they spin up a lot of ways to try to understand it in their minds... they are upset and frustrated that they can't affect change and as those feelings grow they may be channeled outwards towards global-bigger-picture things as one tries to understand wtf is wrong and conceptualize their own misery. after years of building this emotional entanglement it won't unravel/straighten out all at once. so once one finds someone else who seems to be in some way sympathetic or whose presence helps, one might begin to share the entire tangled mass they've been building for years (venting it). i think that a period of venting is natural and necessary in order to unravel it (how long this period lasts depends on a lot of stuff).

so if the ranting and venting continues, but is decreasing over time as one is gradually becoming able to take more actions in their life - this is good.

if, however, the ranting and venting continues and one is using the relationship dynamic simply to add to the emotional entanglement (such that it increases in mass over time) - this is bad.

my guess is SLE though wouldn't put up with this shit. SLE would either use it to try to control IEI or just tell IEI to knock it the fuck off. or if SLE can find something concrete in IEI's complaining, it may move towards action with that thing (for good or bad). worst case scenario is where both are ignited into action based on delusional thinking/ideals (now IEI can act but it is taking the wrong actions).

[bolong]

Well this was a hilarious read ("only you can light a fire under their ass" lmao)

ime IEI males are very different from IEI females, especially once they reach the mid-20s and onwards stage. The main difference is that the IEI female would have grown out of the wimpiness by now, but probably not the male. This is a strange phenomenon, the "pampered IEI male" is truly one of the worst, and they don't seem to get better in the presence of a beta ST female. On the other hand, the IEI female will decide enough is enough at some point, and toughen up / become academic / become an activist.

As for the EIE's role, I think that also depends on gender. Maybe male IEIs do need to be bitch slapped by a male EIE. Personally, if I'm in a bit of a shabby state and I see a really well put together EIE chick, that will motivate me. But if they tried to get in my face that wouldn't work - plus I don't think they would do that, EIEs irl avoid confrontation too.

[Aylen]

Aww, my mom probably felt the same way dealing with me growing up. I am an adult now so our relationship is different. Her way just seemed so critical to me all the time and I am not motivated by criticism. That just might be a mother/daughter thing but she did not seem to value my love of reading and writing and saw it as lazy. She wanted me to do not read. In a way I think it helped as I got older and started to appreciate her ability to take action and see goals through.

The way you describe your friend is my brother in a nutshell when you try to make him do anything. He will respond in a positive way to an SLE pushing him but when my mom does it he gets a bit contrary. Maybe it is her way or maybe it is just us. My sisters have no problem with it.

He is usually more focused on justice for himself and focuses on what is unfair but he is getting better and maturing. Male IEI can be a nightmare to live with if they are unmotivated and feel like everyone is against them.

368 – The Justice Fighter and is a Debater Archetype

I was asked the differences between the 361, the 368 and the 369 tritypes. Since the question is which gut type is dominant. At a glance, it is most helpful to look at activity levels. The 361 is very industrious and busy doing to avoid anxiety, the 1 brings a need to do what is morally correct. The 368 is focused on fighting for justice, the 8 brings a need to overcome and prevail. The 369 is highly adaptable and focused on being in comfortable alignment with others.


The sx 683 is a very dynamic 6. This tritype has consistently reported being predominantly counter-phobic. A true fighter this tritype goes the distance for others. This tritype with 6 dominant is very loyal, feisty and achievement oriented.


(3)-6-8 - The Reactive 3
3-(6)-8 - The Aggressive 6
3-6-(8) - The Normative 8


Characterized by confrontation. Immovably disagreeable. They stay firm in their direction and beliefs and won't let anyone but themselves change that.


For some, it depends what type you put first. For example:
6-83 : Debator
8-63 : Justice fighter
3-68 : Some sort of image concious justice preacher


368, 683, 836 - The Justice Fighter - Verbally adept and a good reader of people and situations, you have the ability to identify unjust authority, rebel against tyranny and verbally spar against it. Your life mission is to challenge what is unfair and protect the innocent. A true justice fighter, you are happiest when you can use your protective energy and debating skills in service of others or a cause. Your blind spot is that you can be so identified with challenging what you perceive as unfair that you become overbearing, confrontational, anti-authoritarian, and indifferent to the wisdom of emotional intelligence and your tender emotions. Your growing edge is to recognize that your need to challenge and oppose can keep you from knowing who you are or what you feel. True protection comes from being in alignment with your higher self and knowing when to intervene and when to allow events to unfold.


eight with a three fix: the notably success oriented, prominence seeking eight. utilizes
image and manipulation to advance their career or enterprise.
business achievement can lead to political aspirations.


If you examine this by tritype, you will find that we identify with this definition in a specific way. For example, as a sexual 874, I like to do my thing and execute what interests me and will push myself for my intimates... but I do not like to prepare and perform. The 873 would feel more comfortable performing, the 863 preparing and so on.


683
Direct and focused 6. This 6 can appear 3ish or 8ish. This is the Justice Fighter, 6. The 6s are good achievers and debaters. They are the most confrontational 6. They are usually the CP6 and make good Trial Attorneys.
The core fears are of fear itself, danger, being alone, cowardice, submitting, deviance, uncertainty, being targeted, chaos, weakness, being controlled, disempowered, humiliated, vulnarable, at the mercy of injustice, failure, being incapable or unable to do, inefficient, second best, and unmasked.


The 368 is very dynamic. This is the toughest fighter on the Enneagram. They focus on justice and are quick to react and seek the advantage in the service of justice. The 6 with this tritype identifies with type 8 and is counter-phobic.


The 846 is one of the most confrontational tritypes. The other is the 836. The 6 amplifies the 8 need for loyalty and trust.

[Pole]

Well this was a hilarious read ("only you can light a fire under their ass" lmao)

ime IEI males are very different from IEI females, especially once they reach the mid-20s and onwards stage. The main difference is that the IEI female would have grown out of the wimpiness by now, but probably not the male. This is a strange phenomenon, the "pampered IEI male" is truly one of the worst, and they don't seem to get better in the presence of a beta ST female. On the other hand, the IEI female will decide enough is enough at some point, and toughen up / become academic / become an activist.

As for the EIE's role, I think that also depends on gender. Maybe male IEIs do need to be bitch slapped by a male EIE. Personally, if I'm in a bit of a shabby state and I see a really well put together EIE chick, that will motivate me. But if they tried to get in my face that wouldn't work - plus I don't think they would do that, EIEs irl avoid confrontation too.

I didn't realize the males were like that, compared to the females, maybe I did because the females will complain but they do seem more proactive and curious about new hobbies and will try interesting things like break dancing or belly dance). Looking back I've known other male IEIs who were exactly like the one I mentioned. They all rely on Mommy to buy groceries and pay the bills, they don't get cars until their mid 20s and the get gas money from Mommy and say they tried getting jobs and it doesn't work, when in reality they dropped off one app in two years and spend their days playing video games and letting their hair grow and their muscles waste away. But if an SLE somehow inspires them that's great, but it's certainly not what I'm able to do for them.

[Satan]

if they serve no useful purpose kick them out of your life?

[Pole]

if they serve no useful purpose kick them out of your life?

I already did?

[bolong]

I didn't realize the males were like that, compared to the females, maybe I did because the females will complain but they do seem more proactive and curious about new hobbies and will try interesting things like break dancing or belly dance). Looking back I've known other male IEIs who were exactly like the one I mentioned. They all rely on Mommy to buy groceries and pay the bills, they don't get cars until their mid 20s and the get gas money from Mommy and say they tried getting jobs and it doesn't work, when in reality they dropped off one app in two years and spend their days playing video games and letting their hair grow and their muscles waste away. But if an SLE somehow inspires them that's great, but it's certainly not what I'm able to do for them.

I'm actually married to an LSI-Se, I rely on him a lot for emotional support but now that I think of it, I don't rely on him for motivation. Bc it doesn't work, it usually has the opposite effect even though he's supposed to be my activator. Say I'm planning to do some self improvement thing, like some exercise or yoga or making dinner or something. If I start talking to him in the middle I'll most likely drop those plans bc it seems like too much work and we can just hang out and drink instead.

the motivation definitely has to come from myself, even an SLE can't force it. Or maybe they can and I just don't notice it ....

[Pole]

I'm actually married to an LSI-Se, I rely on him a lot for emotional support but now that I think of it, I don't rely on him for motivation. Bc it doesn't work, it usually has the opposite effect even though he's supposed to be my activator. Say I'm planning to do some self improvement thing, like some exercise or yoga or making dinner or something. If I start talking to him in the middle I'll most likely drop those plans bc it seems like too much work and we can just hang out and drink instead.

the motivation definitely has to come from myself, even an SLE can't force it. Or maybe they can and I just don't notice it ....

Very interesting. I wonder what it is about LSI that doesn't help with low Se in IEI?

[marooned]

although i might be lead rather than lead, i tend to find creative motivating. but often it is backwards. for instance when i worked with an ESI, whenever she would actively begin doing something, i felt the motivation in myself rise (it was mirroring hers) and i would feel very able and productive as we did something together. i also would get less lost in uncertainty about which way am i going to approach it and unable to stay in any sense of dread of it because i could see how we were getting it done. (the main example i'm thinking of is actually packing up a bunch of stuff.)

however, most of the time she was in her rational information elements... so it was simply that she did not have first. instead she could criticize *you* for not using , lol (for not being her, really). and so she might use it seemed more to carry out criticisms in the form of 'what you should do' than to actually engage you in something that would activate ?

it's kind of draining to constantly have to feed someone your creative function as though it is your first function.

[YXPR]

Very interesting. I wonder what it is about LSI that doesn't help with low Se in IEI?

Talking from my experience, just being around a Se dom will make an IEI more active. Se doms don't have to give orders nor advice, they just have an energy that as Ni doms we take and make ours. On top of that SLEs are Ti creative which means they won't start btching about a friend just because he asked them how an exercice machine works. We rely on Ti to counterbalance our Te POLR and we are kind of "built" to believe that people don't mind explaining stuff.
Instead of pruducing Ti, LSIs produce Se, you guys just give orders and complain about evrerything you don't understand in a very harsh way. Whenever my LSI friend starts doing that I just start ignoring her because I find it annoying as fk. When you add LSIs' weak Fe to that, it can become really awful and the way you talk about your "friend" or former friend is a good example.
Such behaviour does not make IEIs more active, I'd say it just makes us want to walk out on you. Your friend is propably as fed-up with you as you are fed-up with him.
That's life. <3

[squark]

for instance when i worked with an ESI, whenever she would actively begin doing something, i felt the motivation in myself rise (it was mirroring hers) and i would feel very able and productive as we did something together. i also would get less lost in uncertainty about which way am i going to approach it and unable to stay in any sense of dread of it because i could see how we were getting it done. (the main example i'm thinking of is actually packing up a bunch of stuff.).

I prefer this kind of dynamic. It's great when you start doing things and other people just naturally join in to help. It feels very productive and team-like.

[Pole]

Talking from my experience, just being around a Se dom will make an IEI more active. Se doms don't have to give orders nor advice, they just have an energy that as Ni doms we take and make ours. On top of that SLEs are Ti creative which means they won't start btching about a friend just because he asked them how an exercice machine works. We rely on Ti to counterbalance our Te POLR and we are kind of "built" to believe that people don't mind explaining stuff.
Instead of pruducing Ti, LSIs produce Se, you guys just give orders and complain about evrerything you don't understand in a very harsh way. Whenever my LSI friend starts doing that I just start ignoring her because I find it annoying as fk. When you add LSIs' weak Fe to that, it can become really awful and the way you talk about your "friend" or former friend is a good example.
Such behaviour does not make IEIs more active, I'd say it just makes us want to walk out on you. Your friend is propably as fed-up with you as you are fed-up with him.
That's life. <3

He's not fed up, he still wants to be my BF but I'm like PASS

[YXPR]

Then he is an idiot indeed. Or maybe you just got a nice ass. Socionics can't beat a nice ass.

[Pole]

Then he is an idiot indeed. Or maybe you just got a nice ass. Socionics can't beat a nice ass.

How did you know? I'm a whooty, a white girl with a big booty.

[bolong]

Very interesting. I wonder what it is about LSI that doesn't help with low Se in IEI?

Possibly bc, even with a Se subtype you are still IJ temperament, and IJs need a reason to do something. Whereas SXE energy is bursting out at all times without any particular reason and IEIs can just ride the wave

[Pole]

Possibly bc, even with a Se subtype you are still IJ temperament, and IJs need a reason to do something. Whereas SXE energy is bursting out at all times without any particular reason and IEIs can just ride the wave

That makes a LOT of sense.

[niffer]

He acted like this was too much work to deal with and decided instead to follow me around and launch into political rants while I worked out.

I loled. This is so easy to picture. I know the exact type of IEI guy who is like this.

I know that there are some IEI guys who have no goals in life and who are ridiculously wimpy (I won't associate with these ones), but most of the ones that I've met do have goals. In particular, they have great foresight and so they are good at setting long term goals which can really materialize into something great. It's just that in the short term and for daily Se matters, they can have trouble figuring out what they need to know that's relevant and what needs to be done, and since they see so far they may not feel the significance of the present moment. The exact opposite is the case for SLEs.

[Pole]

I loled. This is so easy to picture. I know the exact type of IEI guy who is like this.

I know that there are some IEI guys who have no goals in life and who are ridiculously wimpy (I won't associate with these ones), but most of the ones that I've met do have goals. In particular, they have great foresight and so they are good at setting long term goals which can really materialize into something great. It's just that in the short term and for daily Se matters, they can have trouble figuring out what they need to know that's relevant and what needs to be done, and since they see so far they may not feel the significance of the present moment. The exact opposite is the case for SLEs.

well said

[Beautiful sky]

I loled. This is so easy to picture. I know the exact type of IEI guy who is like this.

I know that there are some IEI guys who have no goals in life and who are ridiculously wimpy (I won't associate with these ones), but most of the ones that I've met do have goals. In particular, they have great foresight and so they are good at setting long term goals which can really materialize into something great. It's just that in the short term and for daily Se matters, they can have trouble figuring out what they need to know that's relevant and what needs to be done, and since they see so far they may not feel the significance of the present moment. The exact opposite is the case for SLEs.

LOL exactly. To add IEI are not good with money management, unlike EII (a non drunk EII is usually good at saving money), so SLE will have to make major decisions (this is where she and i have in common), SLE will have to buy household products, wash dishes, tend to the kids, she will subordinate to authority. All this sound so similar to LSE/EII duality except in my duality we don't like drama, extremes in emotions, wild ideas without planning like "let's go live in Germany" and we don't like strong emotions.

SLE do power and LSE do authority

http://theydiffer.com/difference-bet...and-authority/

"Power Authority
Power comes from knowledge and expertise. Authority comes from position and office.
Power is the personal ability of a person to control or influence others. Authority is the formal right to take decisions or making commands.
Power does not come with rank or designation; a person is either powerful or not. Authority comes with rank and designation.
The scope of power cannot be written down or explained because it is too broad a concept. The scope of authority can be written down and explained in explicit terms.
Power is not dependant on levels as it is broader in context and has a more extensive approach. Authority is dependent on levels or positions and can be used in a limited manner as awarded. Source: http://theydiffer.com/difference-between-power-and-authority/"

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PowerVersusAuthority

[YXPR]

LOL exactly. To add IEI are not good with money management, online EII (a non drunk EII is usually good at saving money), so SLE will have to make major decisions (this is where she and i have in common), SLE will have to buy household products, wash dishes, tend to the kids, she will subordinate to authority. All this sound so similar to LSE/EII duality except in my duality we don't like drama, extremes in emotions, wild ideas without planning like "let's go live in Germany" and we don't like strong emotions.

SLE do power and LSE do authority

http://theydiffer.com/difference-bet...and-authority/

"Power Authority
Power comes from knowledge and expertise. Authority comes from position and office.
Power is the personal ability of a person to control or influence others. Authority is the formal right to take decisions or making commands.
Power does not come with rank or designation; a person is either powerful or not. Authority comes with rank and designation.
The scope of power cannot be written down or explained because it is too broad a concept. The scope of authority can be written down and explained in explicit terms.
Power is not dependant on levels as it is broader in context and has a more extensive approach. Authority is dependent on levels or positions and can be used in a limited manner as awarded. Source: http://theydiffer.com/difference-between-power-and-authority/"

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PowerVersusAuthority

I agree SLEs should wash dishes; the rest I'm not buying.

This may work for EII because of Te suggestive but I have a hard time picturing a Ni dom letting somebody else decide for him. Or maybe that's really what you meant.

[Pookie]

IEI dudes need to grow thick skin early or they grow up to be softer than baby peas.

The whole Safe Space movement is absolutely the worst thing for an IEI.

[Beautiful sky]

I agree SLEs should wash dishes; the rest I'm not buying.

This may work for EII because of Te suggestive but I have a hard time picturing a Ni dom letting somebody else decide for him. Or maybe that's really what you meant.

Oookay. I don't know how to help you if you can't see it

[niffer]

I agree SLEs should wash dishes; the rest I'm not buying.

This may work for EII because of Te suggestive but I have a hard time picturing a Ni dom letting somebody else decide for him. Or maybe that's really what you meant.

She means logistics. And when one gets a lot of responsibility in a relationship situation, they also have a lot of power as a consequence. It implies that the end result is a balanced relationship in both cases.

[weirdleftovers]

SLE will have to buy household products, wash dishes, tend to the kids, she will subordinate to authority. All this sound so similar to LSE/EII duality except in my duality we don't like drama, extremes in emotions, wild ideas without planning like "let's go live in Germany" and we don't like strong emotions.

I've never experienced this. I'm always the one who cleans, cooks, yard work etc. I'm very particular how I want things. I'm obsessively organized. I clean everyone's house (friends, family), can't tolerate disorder. I'm bad with money in the sense I've started a few "questionable" online businesses when I was younger. I go to extremes. I either save like a miser, or I spend everything because who cares about tomorrow. I'm more seeking an SLE who is very entrepreneurial and will execute my ideas. One with the SO I'm lacking. I'm terrible at networking and people in general. I can only fake being nice and normal for so long

[Beautiful sky]

Hum @Animal what is your take on housework

[maniac]

@Maritsa now i might be EIE but i try to avoid doing household chores as much as possible and my mother (LSE/ESE) is the opposite and looooves to do gardening (yuck) cleaning organizing always renovating the house which i think is super uneccessary. I dont know if this will change when i move out and live on my own. But in a marriage traditionally the women have always done these chores so its not strange if the Ni ego woman is doing it..

[Animal]

Hum @Animal what is your take on housework

I don't really believe in Socionics anymore and don't cling very strongly to any particular typing, but I actually identify with everything @weirdleftovers said. I use household chores as an opportunity to grow in competency and mastery over my environment, and as a way to practice mindfulness: getting out of the chaos of my mind into the comforting predictability and simplicity of the physical world.

[Beautiful sky]

I've never experienced this. I'm always the one who cleans, cooks, yard work etc. I'm very particular how I want things. I'm obsessively organized. I clean everyone's house (friends, family), can't tolerate disorder. I'm bad with money in the sense I've started a few "questionable" online businesses when I was younger. I go to extremes. I either save like a miser, or I spend everything because who cares about tomorrow. I'm more seeking an SLE who is very entrepreneurial and will execute my ideas. One with the SO I'm lacking. I'm terrible at networking and people in general. I can only fake being nice and normal for so long

you are IEI

[seriousguy]

You are painting every IEI with a single brush. I do more exercises and lift more weights than most Se egos in my gym (and then eventually get a burn out and leave gym for a day or two ironically), plus I also act as a sort of trainer for my ILI and ESI cousin, and I occasionally correct newcomers. Your signature said that you are 8w7, I am guessing you are Dominant in DCNH? He seems Normalizing, especially that "apathetic and boring" and coming alive through "text and facebook" part, so I don't see any type related incompatibility. Maybe he don't really have any goals regarding the gym and he simply joined gym to rant and pass his time? When I joined the gym, I was quite passive and used to take huge breaks within exercises, as I really didn't had a clear goal (I wanted to just get in "shape" or improve my Se so to speak), and there was one EIE guy who used to push me so much, often against my will. One day he was pushing me to lift heavy weights rod for biceps that I could never lift, so I resisted and tried to explain why I just can't lift it (as I don't have any strength at all), but he kept pushing me, and then I lashed out, because he seemed to have some personal agenda as previously he showed his asshole side by insulting my personal qualities and highlighting my weakness to everyone, he was trying to get validation on his Se (that fucking HA) and somehow maintain his image (he was 3w4 core), his blunt remarks about me implied that he was trying to control me, since then he don't talk to me anymore and he has recently left the gym.

Basically, IEIs would appreciate the force / motivation, but you need to ask their goals or what they want / expect from you; if you are pushing them for no reason (even if you think you are a generous person) plus you insult their general laziness in front of everyone making them appear helpless, then they may hold a resentment against you or even turn their direction towards you (Suggestive is as painful as PoLR if someone is not helping and simply insulting you). I would never work under someone who just force me for no reasons, and is too stupid to be reasoned with. I rather appreciate someone working with me on shared goals (where he is not TRYING to be an asshole or want explicit power over me), helping me to get up when I am feeling down, but in a way that they actually care about my goals and not imposing their personal agenda on me.

Also, as @YXPR pointed out, Ti Creative naturally tells us the rules / procedures in an explicit manner as if they expect some response from us to further polish their Ti information or to elicitate the debate, for e.g, my SLE-Ti cousin once started telling me the complete system of different exercises and "how tos" when he realized that I go to gym, this is different from someone with inert+accepting Ti, who won't share Ti information in an explicit manner believing that the other person would just get it. Basically, SLE-Ti has that obvious Se energy and movement, so they naturally come across as aggressive when they are simply sharing the Ti information. EIE has producing Se as well, so they come across as simply pushy. Not sure if you understand what I am saying, but try mimicking SLE-Ti and share your Ti in a way as if you are trying to "create" something (i.e., a system or an instruction manual) through his help.

[darya]

Apparently my Se increases 5% with every additional 5 kg I lift in the gym.

[Satan]

i don't know which is worse.. iei with high se or ie with low se...

[Myst]

Talking from my experience, just being around a Se dom will make an IEI more active. Se doms don't have to give orders nor advice, they just have an energy that as Ni doms we take and make ours. On top of that SLEs are Ti creative which means they won't start btching about a friend just because he asked them how an exercice machine works. We rely on Ti to counterbalance our Te POLR and we are kind of "built" to believe that people don't mind explaining stuff.
Instead of pruducing Ti, LSIs produce Se, you guys just give orders and complain about evrerything you don't understand in a very harsh way. Whenever my LSI friend starts doing that I just start ignoring her because I find it annoying as fk. When you add LSIs' weak Fe to that, it can become really awful and the way you talk about your "friend" or former friend is a good example.
Such behaviour does not make IEIs more active, I'd say it just makes us want to walk out on you. Your friend is propably as fed-up with you as you are fed-up with him.
That's life. <3

Lol you know some LSIs I see

I wouldn't complain just about someone asking how to use an exercise machine, tho'.