INFp visionaries

[krieger]

This seems to be a very common role for INFps to play: the guy with the radical idea that precipitates or presages a major societal trend; the primordial intellectual source of a political movement. I've come across at least 2:

Gerald Celente:


Jaque Fresco:


A third that I think is worth mentioning is Karl Marx. It is rather strange and dubious thing that people are so strongly inclined to slap the ENTp label on this guy given that he has been dead for more than a century and most of the information available about him is at least as old. This kind of certainty doesn't fit the epistemic difficulty in establishing his type. I suggest INFp as an alternative typing:


I think there is a bit of a tendency to confuse this version of INFp with ENTps in general. Under taciturn/narrator cycle theory, this fact is explained by the adjacency of the two types on the taciturn/irrational/positivist cycle: ISTp-ESFp-INFp-ENTp-ISTp

[Lobo]

Hmmm, wouldn't it be more common to find an INFp visionary in areas that are not related to the economy and recession? I'm basing it on the first video. I would think that they find more fulfillment when it's about something like changes in societal trends, rather than predicting things like recession. I don't think it's that common to find INFps talking about these things like the guy in the first video.

I'm also very skeptical about people who claim to predict things. To me it seems like shoot or miss, even if they get it right.

[krieger]

Hmmm, wouldn't it be more common to find an INFp visionary in areas that are not related to the economy and recession? I'm basing it on the first video. I would think that they find more fulfillment when it's about something like changes in societal trends, rather than predicting things like recession. I don't think it's that common to find INFps talking about these things like the guy in the first video.

I'm not sure why INFps would recoil from such a topic per say. It seems like just another thing that the Ni function can be set loose on with interesting results.

Celente does speak about social trends a lot, by the way. He thinks that a major depression would bring about a resurgence of elaborate grooming and presenting oneself at one's best, for example.

I'm also very skeptical about people who claim to predict things. To me it seems like shoot or miss, even if they get it right.

Well, it's difficult. That's a reason to be sceptical, but also a reason to be impressed when a person repeatedly manages to predict correctly. Celente's track record is far from perfect, but it's quite good in comparison to that of others.

Besides, if your type is INFj like you claim, this may simply be a case of you devaluing Ni or some other function these guys use when making predictions (some Ti is probably involved).

[krieger]

It's interesting to think about what kind of functions are used in making predictions like these...

Celente's style revolves around making very powerful, all-encompassing statements about the future based on his perception of unfolding trends. IMO there is some Ti shining through here in this character of all-encompassing grandeur, particularly the beta version.

If, instead, you'd look at someone like Jim Rogers, who I think is an INTp, you see more of an attitude of "this and that trend don't look good and worry me, so I'm doing X", i.e. the certainty, the rigid determination, are in the action of the person rather than in the prediction of fact.

[Lobo]

I'm not sure why INFps would recoil from such a topic per say. It seems like just another thing that the Ni function can be set loose on with interesting results.

Celente does speak about social trends a lot, by the way. He thinks that a major depression would bring about a resurgence of elaborate grooming and presenting oneself at one's best, for example.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. His choice of prediction just seems a little odd for me, coming from an INFp.

Well, it's difficult. That's a reason to be sceptical, but also a reason to be impressed when a person repeatedly manages to predict correctly. Celente's track record is far from perfect, but it's quite good in comparison to that of others.

Besides, if your type is INFj like you claim, this may simply be a case of you devaluing Ni or some other function these guys use when making predictions (some Ti is probably involved).

I wouldn't say devaluing Ni, but not seeing the point in making these predictions (maybe that's devaluing Ni, lol). Things of that scale are going to happen regardless of you pointing them out, you can't control fate, imo. You might as well just take things as they come, rather than anticipating something you have no actual control over, but that's just me .

[krieger]

I think you're underestimating the extent to which a person could profit from positioning themselves in the world (and in the financial markets particularly) based on the perception of trends like these. If you hedge yourself properly against a massive depression like the one he is predicting, you could be like John D. Rockefeller buying up assets that are devalued relative to your hedge. The rewards of getting these predictions right and positioning yourself accordingly are not really in question.

[EyeSeeCold]

Jimi Hendrix - The Visionary Artist

[krieger]

Interesting suggestion. Seems kind of docile in a Si/Ne kind of way in this interview, though. I don't register much of that in Celente and Fresco.

[EyeSeeCold]

He's too shy offstage. Se/Ni shows especially in his music.

[Singu]

I just watched the new "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward" movie (ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD | OFFICIAL RELEASE | 2011), which features Jacque Fresco. The movie advocates what Fresco is basically advocating, which is called the "Venus Project" or whatever. I don't necessarily agree with the ideas presented with the movie, but there were some interesting ideas. It was kind of too radical and idealistic for my taste, but basically, I thought the movie was rather INFp, and maybe anti-Te or anti-Si, or whatever. What the movie does is it actually advocates the overthrowing of the current currency system, in favor of a currency-less "resource-based economy". That sort of thing is maybe... Beta. Fe > Te? What I didn't really like about the movie was that perhaps in the stereotypical Beta fashion, it gets too... lofty? And the talks of a "revolution" and all that, which gets messy. Obviously, not all Betas are like that, but they can be.

Jesus Christ... I just realized that nutcases like Jared Lautner have ate this stuff up and killed a bunch of people. These kind of ideas can be dangerous... when it's handed to the wrong kind of people.

A third that I think is worth mentioning is Karl Marx. It is rather strange and dubious thing that people are so strongly inclined to slap the ENTp label on this guy given that he has been dead for more than a century and most of the information available about him is at least as old. This kind of certainty doesn't fit the epistemic difficulty in establishing his type. I suggest INFp as an alternative typing:

Yes... that's what I thought too. I don't know too much about the guy, but it's like, come on. His whole ideas are kind of too idealistic, and authoritarian. Now, I'm not saying that ALL INFps or Betas are like that, but they can be. His idea of transitioning from Socialism to Communism seems like the typical "to make an omelette you'd have to break a few eggs" kind of thinking that some Ni/Se types entertain in. Again, not all Ni/Se types are like that, some will become wise enough to realize that human lives and values are more important than their lofty ideals about the future. But if you focus too much on Ni, as you will, then you can forget about the moment and focus too much about the possibilities of the future.

So, basically, I think that there are many INFps, who identify themselves as the so-called "futurists", who paint a fantastic picture of the future and get everyone to get excited or motivated toward that goal. I think that they can be either very successful or unsuccessful, have a very novel or destructive goals and ideas, depending on how grounded they are. Obviously, not all INFps are going to be either too idealistic or lofty. In Socionics terms, maybe we can say that they are "developed in Te or Si", or whatever. Or maybe we can just say... that they are more grounded in reality.

[krieger]

Let's also not forget the the violent overthrow of classes was always a part of Marx' ideas. People like to say that Marx was the perfect example of a naive Alpha type that had his ideas usurped by Beta, but it wasn't like that. Marx was no kitty. He really saw revolution as a violent, bloody act from the start.

A lot of that runs counter to the image projected by the description of Si/Ne quadras in socionics.

My personal impression of ENTps is also that they are rather a-political and uninterested in societal movements and political dynamics; i.e. they just want to be left alone in a stimulating environment and come up with ideas, not get involved in all this political tug-of-war. Marx was something different. Precipitating the political movement was his pointed intent all along.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I'm very visionary. I usually know when something bad is gonna happen before other people do. I'm extremely intuitive. I kinda know what something is gonna before it happens (esp. if it's a negative thing), that's why I don't do much.... I need to be surprised, but I rarely am, because I know what's gonna happen. So, I tend to just sit and do nothing and write stories instead.

I just don't understand the mentality of the typical black dude 'real world' physical str8 man jock that does a million external things 'just to try it out' and goes crazy living in the world. I know it builds up a certain uhh 'hardness' and physical presence, but it also seems rather pointless. You know?

However, I miss the physical smells and the ambiance of some certain experiences. But it's more like I purely crave those things one at a time. It doesn't seem 'all over the map' to me like it does in some other people.... I just kinda think about it a lot until I gain up the energy to do it (or not, often times just dreaming/thinking is enough) when I really want something it's almost like I myself become that something.

people are just different. I know most people would self-destruct if they were me. They wouldn't be able to handle doing nothing and the raw meaningness I need to create my art with.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Again, not all Ni/Se types are like that, some will become wise enough to realize that human lives and values are more important than their lofty ideals about the future.

Whateveeeer. How can you say that human values are more important than human ideals? They're essentially the same thing. It all boils down to: The world is cruel, you can get away with being an asshole. And then some. It's really nonpunishable for somebody to be the most selfish, greedy, horrible person in the world. The real question is: Can you be something different, despite knowing that?

Also human lives aren't really important I don't think. Why do you say that? What makes a human life intrinsically important. I think it would be better for the earth's balance if most humans were eradicated. Look around. Everybody is drugged up, shooting each other- or shooting themselves. They reproduce just to pass their bigoted, neurotic views on their offspring.

But that's why we have the ideals because the world is actually that cruel and unkind, to try and thrust it to a better spot. Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it's intrinsically wrong. It's just ideal. it's just something that 'would be nice' but hasn't happened yet. But it doesn't mean that it can't ever happen....

That to me is a lot more sane and 'realistic' than saying human lives are important. They really aren't naturally...that's just what people tell themselves to make themselves feel good and 'important.' But ideals are just sort of a natural progress.

It's like 'how can you get from point A to point B if you always stay stuck in the 'reality' and 'sameness' of it all? it's like somebody going 'women and gays shouldn't have equal rights to straight men, that's just TOO IDEAL FAKE AND FAGGY. LET'S ALL GET A REAL JOB AND JUST PRETEND THAT SOCIAL PROBLEMS DON'T EXIST DUR DUR. EYES CLOSED, HEAD IN THE SAND LIKE LITTLE OSTRICHES.' But no, people instead eventually tend to 'wide the wave of ideals' and see how we're all better off for it. That might sound 'feel good' but I still don't think human lives are 'important' I just think that we're naturally made to evolve and grow. And the ideals is the main pure progressive force behind that.

((btw I'm not really angry I just like to argue. =p))

[WVBRY]

A third that I think is worth mentioning is Karl Marx. It is rather strange and dubious thing that people are so strongly inclined to slap the ENTp label on this guy given that he has been dead for more than a century and most of the information available about him is at least as old. This kind of certainty doesn't fit the epistemic difficulty in establishing his type. ...

Which you then proceed in "establishing".

[krieger]

Wrong. I create a situation of greater stochasticism by suggesting an alternative. My presentation is not set in stone. It simply demonstrates what it looks like when someone makes the case for that typing.

[WVBRY]

Ok, so does my response which is simply saying that that typing can be discounted as well.

[krieger]

Cool; we're on the same page, then.

[WVBRY]

[Singu]

Whateveeeer. How can you say that human values are more important than human ideals? They're essentially the same thing. It all boils down to: The world is cruel, you can get away with being an asshole. And then some. It's really nonpunishable for somebody to be the most selfish, greedy, horrible person in the world. The real question is: Can you be something different, despite knowing that?

Also human lives aren't really important I don't think. Why do you say that? What makes a human life intrinsically important. I think it would be better for the earth's balance if most humans were eradicated. Look around. Everybody is drugged up, shooting each other- or shooting themselves. They reproduce just to pass their bigoted, neurotic views on their offspring.

But that's why we have the ideals because the world is actually that cruel and unkind, to try and thrust it to a better spot. Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it's intrinsically wrong. It's just ideal. it's just something that 'would be nice' but hasn't happened yet. But it doesn't mean that it can't ever happen....

That to me is a lot more sane and 'realistic' than saying human lives are important. They really aren't naturally...that's just what people tell themselves to make themselves feel good and 'important.' But ideals are just sort of a natural progress.

Well, what I mean by human values is something like that we are all intrinsically human, we all have human values and we all deserve to have our values respected. We all have the right to live, voice our opinions, pursuit happiness, respect, safety, shelter and all that. We are all basically... human, and we all want to be treated and treat others the same way we want to be treated. We all don't want to be the victim of a crime or abuse any more than others. Ideals are important... but they can also be misguided and destructive. Like... saying that suicide bombing is justified on the ground on that it represented an "ideal". Or... people like Jared Lautner might genuinely believe that he was doing a "good" by putting all the attention on him by killing a bunch of innocent people. These are extreme examples, and needless to say... these actions are clearly misguided. When people and their values are sacrificed for the "greater good"... then I think that becomes a problem.

So... what you're speaking of is a sort of a Machiavellian, "jungle-world" philosophy. Might makes right. Everybody is essentially a hypocrite. You can do as you please, as long as you are not caught. No real values exist. Which is actually pretty darn disturbing, actually... but anyway, I'm sure that you don't really mean what you say. And we're forgetting that we don't want to be cheated any more than others. We all essentially have the same wishes as others. A person with a disregard for others is treated the same in kind. A killer who doesn't want to be killed may be killed for the reason that we all don't want to be killed. It's much more beneficial and easier to cooperate in the spirit of mutuality than thinking that we are entitled to all.

So... can we not see even the simplest of the cause-and-effect relations? Are we so blind to even the most basic consequences of our actions...? Are we so arrogant to assume that we have the "luck on our sides"... that we are entitled to anything, that we can "get away" or "get by" things without getting caught, without having to face the consequences?

[krieger]

Hugh Hendry;


Another pristine example of this INFp archetype.

[Lobo]

I think you're underestimating the extent to which a person could profit from positioning themselves in the world (and in the financial markets particularly) based on the perception of trends like these. If you hedge yourself properly against a massive depression like the one he is predicting, you could be like John D. Rockefeller buying up assets that are devalued relative to your hedge. The rewards of getting these predictions right and positioning yourself accordingly are not really in question.

Yeah, it does help the individual if they trust on an accurate prediction, but I wonder if it would have a negative effect on the collective when everyone knows (or takes heed) about the trend, as opposed to just a few people. I've heard that this is true of the stock market, in that it's better for the collective if people act normally in the face of an impending drop, rather than try to get themselves in a better position. But, that's another topic.

[Crispy]

My personal impression of ENTps is also that they are rather a-political and uninterested in societal movements and political dynamics; i.e. they just want to be left alone in a stimulating environment and come up with ideas, not get involved in all this political tug-of-war.

I don't know about Marx but from watching the new Zeitgeist movie this is exactly what Jaque Fresco is advocating. He says all political organizations are inherently corrupt and outdated. The Venus Project was made to turn the world into a stimulating environment where ideas will be freely exchanged and the problems initially caused by political dynamics are removed. He really sprung out to me as ENTp upon first impression. Also the ENTIRE film was anti- and pro- at every corner (Eliminate power/authority to bring good health to all). It surprises me that a decisive type would be suggested for him.

[Park]

Jaque Fresco is no Beta. Alpha NT more likely.

[krieger]

The whole Zeitgeist thing is Te-PoLR, not Fi PoLR. It lacks practicality, not ethical consistency.

[krieger]

The Venus Project was made to turn the world into a stimulating environment where ideas will be freely exchanged and the problems initially caused by political dynamics are removed.

Key words bolded. His unequivocal intent is to bring change to a world that is perceived as malicious. His attitude is not detached and uninvolved, it's radiating political fervor.

[krieger]

Also the ENTIRE film was anti- and pro- at every corner (Eliminate power/authority to bring good health to all). It surprises me that a decisive type would be suggested for him.

Another key word bolded. Even your own formulations betray a perception of Decisive motives of his on your part.

[Crispy]

Should I have said overcome?

[Park]

The whole Zeitgeist thing is Te-PoLR?

How so?

It lacks practicality

I disagree. In which sense? Because it advocates automation and monetary system elimination?

[krieger]

I really don't think it needs much clarification that their plans are unrealistic and unlikely to pan out the way they envision them to.

[Quaris]

I really don't think it needs much clarification that their plans are unrealistic and unlikely to pan out the way they envision them to.

Yeh, flying was unrealistic a few years back. Maybe it's just your weak functions screaming.

[krieger]

If you mean my lack of Fi makes me unable to participate in this silly cheerleading routine, you're totally right.

Communism was unrealistic a while ago, and guess what, it still is. Slapping a flashy name label on it isn't going to change that fact.

[Singu]

Yeah... agreed that the whole Zeitgeist thing is Te-PoLR. Or the guy who made the film is Te-PoLR.

Forgive me if this is too simple...:

- The film starts with the idea that we are all affected by our environment. Criminals are made, not born. If we don't live in a favorable environment, then our mental, emotional and physical health suffers. Be nice to others, or you'll create screw-ups. This is basically psychology 101... but I also think that it's basically Fe, especially Creative Fe. I don't think that Te would care too much about these things, that is taking note of our emotional well-being and how they affect us (it may conflict with the need to be productive). Not even ILEs do... I think this is more "F" than "T".

- Then the film starts taking an anti-capitalist tone. The entire economy will eventually collapse. This world is not sustainable. There are not enough resources available to keep up with the economic demand. Capitalism creates an environment at the expense of our health and well-being. Well, isn't capitalism basically a creation of Gamma Te?

- And then... the film sees that a violent revolution is inevitable, and so it advocates an eventual revolution. Isn't this Beta?

- Finally, at the end of the film everything is all nice and idealistic. Everyone gets along with each other, everything is so nice and ideal and perfect... blah blah. The somewhat vague "vision" is positive without conflicts. I think this is some sort of Positivist Fe.

[Park]

I really don't think it needs much clarification that their plans are unrealistic and unlikely to pan out the way they envision them to.

I was going to comment on what you wrote previously, but suddenly it's gone.

The fact that their "plans" (which are not even plans, technically) appear unrealistic to you, is probably because you can't envision the path/process through which they can be realized.

[krieger]

The fact that their "plans" (which are not even plans, technically) appear unrealistic to you, is probably because you can't envision the path/process through which they can be realized.

The problem is that they don't focus on that part enough.

[sar]

you have some strange typings for iei...i'm not necessarily doubting you or anything...but those people don't look anything like me...i'm more like hendrix, they're more intense and not shyish or charming at all

[Saberstorm]

I am very similar to Gerald Celente - but I consider myself to be EIE not IEI. I see some similarities. However, it might be that I am short like him. I am five foot five. I bet he is shorter, but not by a whole lot.

I do not really speak like him. I see no reason to present information to people. I am very guarded about what I think. I want to use my knowledge as an advantage over others. I do not want to tell you anything at all, unless I consider it to be of no use. That which is valuable knowledge seems to be caught my hidden agenda - I want to take action on it, and tell no one unless telling them makes me more powerful.

[Park]

I am very similar to Gerald Celente - but I consider myself to be EIE not IEI.

Are you also very similar to this?

Honestly, a five year plan is used to get other people on board of a vision of the future. It is very creepy Fe, it is not Te at all. When somebody says "Glam, I want your five year plan" it is a Fe type (likely a rational one ESFj or ENFj) trying to tie you down into an agenda that they can influence.

It is to make discursive what is not to be mediated by discursion.

I mean that rather literally. The discursive functions are the Meyers Briggs functions; 1&2 / 5&6. These are functions we can openly articulate and explain. However, they are not the true person, as it does not include the deepest pain of your soul, and your strongest rebellion against control. Functions 3&4 / 7&8 are hard to lay bare to others. Five year plans are entirely evil as a result. They lack the poetry of life.

To gain control. To turn the tables. To master "the other." Once they begin to discuss their plan, you could start sniping at it so that you control the agenda. Maybe Fe doms could do without it. It might be more of an Fe role function type doing it. Five year plans are to force you to suppress your real feelings and give control to the person who asked for your plan.

[Saberstorm]

you know, it might fit...

[Park]

Crazo.

[Saberstorm]

you know it!