Anakin / Palpatine -> Duality?
Are they an ESI(Ani) < -> LIE duality. Ani has got enough spirit, faith and is brash enough to be ESI, while Palps(the most awesome character EVAR) simply has go to be either TeNi or NiTe. He built an army 20(YES TWENTY!!!) years in advance lol. He orchestrated the whole Star Wars. Etc. Those things really require some serious Te AND Ni. Not to mention his masterpiece-Ani...
(that presents another interesting question: what did or did not G.Lucas know of psychology?)
You know, I watched that movie, and I didn't get LIE or ESI vibes from either of them. There are characters in other movies that are much more clearly drawn as LIE's and ESI's. Personally, I think the writers either were not very knowledgeable of types, or the plot dictated that the characters behaved in ways that conformed to some preconceived story line. I actually think the characters change type from scene to scene, and what little continuity there is exists only because the actors unconsciously enforce a type, or the writers begin to write for that character.
And planning twenty years in advance and keeping his plans a secret is much more of an ILI thing than an LIE thing.
ENTJ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89uYbBOm6fg
Originally Posted by nondescript
Not Vader lol. Vader is a...different version of Anakin.
And, I don't know actually. Ni is planning something 20y in advance. But palpatine also had great ability to organise stuff so it benefits him. Plus, he was a public figure(senator then chancellor, who would say such a thing?). And every fkkin thing he does has rhyme and reason behind it. It's quite beautiful to watch.
As for Ani...his type changes from movie to movie. It's all...badly written. The core idea is phenomenal, but the execution is sloppy(at best).
Of what examples of ESI < - > LIE were you talking about?
For LIE's, I always thought Hans Gruber in Die Hard was a pretty straight LIE. He appeared to be a terrorist, but that was just a front to cover his real intentions, which were to make a lot of money, quickly and efficiently. And he had a plan that would enable him to spend it, after he got it.
Also, in real life, I thought Bobby Darin and Sandra Dee were an LIE-ESI pair.
Here is my LIE theme song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qrjtr_uFac
And here is an ESI if ever there was one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlGeKdUFjB4
And here they are, together:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbcjW9SQabc
There are other examples, but these seem pretty clear to me.
Gruber, his brother what's his name in Vengeance and Palpatine are all alike. They are all scheming and plotting and you can never really tell what they are, unless you have holographic cognition and catch them during the exact moment when it's visible. Tell me, if Star Wars movies went chronologically and the first one produced were TPM and Lucas didn't give blatant clues who the Emperor is/will be...would you ever tell it'd be Palpatine? The exact same scenario as Gruber bros...
That's why I always tell he is a TeNi(well, he has got to be either TeNi or NiTe). What'd be Ani be(overall, I do understand that he changed types from episode to episode and not to mention from Ani to D.Vader-bad writing imo)?
i don't really see a point in trying to type "Ani" anymore. i can't stand eps i-iii for the most part and it was difficult for me to take interest in any of the characters since they were all pretty bad (imo). their relationships were terribly plot driven, unconvincing, uninteresting, and just lacked the sort of spark they were supposed to have. i personally suspect this was because george lucas exercised so much control over these films, and managed to unintentionally rob them of their soul. even reasonably good actors turned to bad ones under his direction.
some criticisms of relationships in eps i-iii (i'm focusing on this because interesting characters and meaningful relationships between them is often something i need to be in a story for me to really take interest in it...):
obi-wan & anakin
i was so disappointed in this relationship, and it was in part because of the expectations i had after watching eps iv-vi. old obi-wan described anakin as a good man who was a talented pilot when he first met him... and ultimately a good friend. he didn't tell luke *how* anakin was "seduced by the dark side of the force," but i got the impression whatever happened must have been incredibly complicated and horrifying--the process of turning this good man into an "agent of evil." this story is meaningful because we're comparing luke to his father throughout the films. luke is also a talented pilot and a good man, and a friend to obi-wan. obi-wan and yoda both fear that luke may go the way his father did *even though* luke seems like an incredibly compassionate and balanced person. obviously the lure of the dark side must be pretty powerful if it can turn someone like luke (and we imagine, like his father).
then in ep ii, we meet teenage ani who is a total rotten apple, imo. he already is more interested in power than he is in compassion or doing the right thing. he speaks of compassion as a virtue, but from the perspective of one who is lacking in it (which he is). although i wouldn't call him a bad person (yet), he is clearly not a "good person," imo. he is weak and flawed, and imo, NOT a good friend to obi-wan who he frequently defies and obviously disrespects. (i'll also set aside my huge disappointment that obi-wan first met anakin as a child, not as a man... and his "talents" at piloting referred to speed racing and accidentally destroying the droid-control ship... although yes he was really good at it considering he's a child... but we never get to meet the man *i* imagined anakin might have been... instead this kind of cliche, but also rather arrogant, child, and then teenager... ugh... i just can't continue).
anakin's turn to the dark side is both not very dramatic (it didn't hit the spot) since anakin wasn't that "good" of a "man" to begin with; and is kind of incomprehensible, and is best explained by him both lacking in compassion *and* being mentally retarded. a better defined relationship between anakin and palpatine could have fixed some of this, but unfortunately most of the relationships depicted in eps i-iii are poorly done.
palpatine & anakin
in eps i-iii, the drama of these is that palpatine has been influencing anakin from an early age and twisting his mind. we see very little of this, but it's implied. i would have liked to actually *see* it and have it be more complex... if anakin were ever a "good man" of at least reasonable intelligence, then palpatine would have had to put him through quite the psychological ringer to accomplish this. and *that* would have made for an intriguing relationship that i would have been interested in watching. unfortunately in ep. iii, anakin doesn't seem torn really at every turn, trying to sort out how he feels, or what the right thing to do is, or what is true/fiction, or what is real/fantasy... or any of the mental angst i would expect from a "good man" caught in the influence of a highly perceptive and manipulative evil man with better powers of foresight. (well, it is *kind of* there, but it's just so... unsatisfying...)
i thought using first the story of how ani lost his mother, followed by his fears of losing padme, compelling him to seek out the power of the dark side the jedi were keeping from him, was rather poorly done... not to mention, i just wish none of this had even been the story or the reason for him turning to the dark side.
i saw anakin as more of a near psychopath anyway who just needed a little push to go all the way there. he falls because he is psychologically weak, emotionally weak, easily led, and stupid. his separation from his mother as a child broke him, and he never recovered. even that could have been done in a better way, because i don't feel much about it. i feel like it was just poorly done, and i wanted a different story.
i don't know if this is the story i want, but i'd like this a little better: (and it's not even *that* different!)
the way to turn a "good person" to the dark side, especially vader as seen in eps. iv-vi, i think would involve palpatine convincing him of a better vision for the future. i liked the idea that the republic is broken and isn't working and that this is resulting in small wars and suffering. anakin as i imagined him (from what i knew of vader) probably had a couple of significant flaws: 1) he was ambitious--not to be confused with being arrogant--and wanted more than to be a pilot or jedi... he was interested in politics; 2) he had always been fond of order and truly believed that if they could restore order, all of the minor war and suffering would stop. in order to restore order though, one must rule with a tighter fist... there cannot be so much room for democracy and individual opinions, because nothing will ever be accomplished then and the conflicts will only grow worse.
palpatine inspires anakin as having the solution and the means to pull it off *if* he has help. gradually anakin becomes his helper, consumed by palpatine's vision, which *seems* to be driven by compassion, which for anakin at the time, is the only reason to do this. he knows that he is walking the line with being a criminal because palpatine doesn't care for the law--the republic has fallen too far to resolve anything through legal means. anakin is probably torn through most of this because he feels like he is doing the wrong thing, he's lying to friends like obi-wan, and to his wife (or lover, or whatever she is). he's constantly plagued by doubts and nightmares, but he trusts palpatine, who he believes to be a visionary and a good person.
it isn't until he's too deep in that he starts to realize there's more to palpatine than meets the eye--perhaps that he's even known for a while but never consciously could put his finger on it. eventually something less retarded than what happened in ep. iii occurs and anakin confronts palpatine with his suspicions, feeling like a paranoid lunatic as he does it. palpatine doesn't even try to lie to him, and is instead sincere and forthcoming. anakin feels betrayed nonetheless, but his bond with palpatine is too deep and the years he's spent aiding him make it seem there isn't any turning back. he wonders if he could do damage control and keep palpatine from doing too much evil, because the vision is still good. the republic is still in need. people are still suffering. despite the confrontation, their association doesn't end. (there was probably a temporary break due to anakin being pissed, but they come back together.)
anakin just gets in further over his head, trying to maintain some control, for he at least can make ethical decisions in all of this. he at least can try to do the right thing for the greatest number of people--and palpatine has been consistently honest when asked and willing to negotiate... but "the right thing" only gets more and more murky and more difficult to see and understand as time goes on, and palpatine only asks him to do increasingly unethical things in the name of a greater good, and sometimes anakin wonders if they'll ever reach this "greater good."
meanwhile his personal relationships other than with palpatine continue to deteriorate. he starts breaking off contact with people because he can't stand all the lying and deceit he's doing. they deserve better. he hurts his wife/lover and drives her away. it kills him to do this, but he can't see another way. the only person he can't quite seem to get rid of is his was-best-friend, obi-wan, who has an irritating ability to see right through him. he fears how much obi-wan may be able to figure out on his own--obi-wan was always the more perceptive of the two of them, and is a little older. obi-wan, who taught him much about the force, knows how anakin thinks... knows him intimately.
the more paranoid he gets about obi-wan getting to the bottom of things and not going away when he needs to (not taking a hint), the more angry anakin starts feeling towards him. palpatine eventually works his claws into the situation, and forces anakin to see that there is no way to succeed unless they deal with the obi-wan problem. it's another sacrifice "for the greater good."
this is probably what finally tears anakin apart. he betrayed all of his other friends, but they were all the better off for it. he could still tell himself he did the right thing. but to kill obi-wan, who has long been his best friend--that he can't convince himself is "right." unfortunately by this point, he's too far in, he's too warped, he's too internally conflicted, his emotions are too out of control--oscillating from paranoia to rage to something that isn't quite love anymore... all he can find relief in is the persistent cold of palpatine that offers a path out of this hell, if he can just endure long enough. so he chooses to trust palpatine, as he long has. he sees the good in palpatine. he knows that must be real... mustn't it?
when finally he confronts obi-wan, he chooses jedi combat, because that at least is fair. he takes no pleasure in this dark deed he must do. [...] and after, he lies to palpatine, telling him that he killed obi-wan. palpatine *appears* to believe him. either way, the obi-wan problem goes away. no one see obi-wan again.
anakin & padme
the most boring relationship ever, and one that makes little sense (to me). little ani is captivated by padme as a child because she's beautiful, good, and looks like an angel to him. being already an obsessive little creature he quickly develops a crush on her. when he sees who she really is--a powerful politician--he is further entranced. he holds onto his crush and then tries to make the moves on her in ep ii. she sees him as a little immature and remembers him as a kid, but the audience is supposed to believe that she gradually starts falling for him (really, in no time at all) through horrible dialog like "sand is hard and coarse, not soft like you" and "you're training to be a jedi and i'm... i'm a senator!" it makes no sense to me. by the end of the film she's declaring her undying love, and his obsession is secured to drive him through ep. iii.
obi-wan & anakin continued...
the dramatic end of this relationship was incredibly unsatisfying, both because i never really thought they had a very strong friendship as presented throughout the films, and because i had my own things i wanted to see (which i know isn't george lucas' fault).
for one (and this *is* lucas' fault), i really expected that anakin/vader took years hunting down the jedi himself because they were elusive, spread over multiple worlds, and difficult to kill (it was no job for storm troopers). since the jedi were so formidable, vader got badly cut up over time in these fights. he always won eventually, but the price was fingers and toes, arms and legs, etc. by the time he's finished his hard work, there's little left of him. the emperor, who i perceived as more of a paranoid and behind-the-scenes sort, naturally never lent a hand.
i did imagine there'd been a final confrontation with obi-wan, but i didn't believe it ended in obi-wan severing all of anakin's limbs himself. i personally thought obi-wan had probably lost the confrontation because anakin was stronger with the force (and not a total idiot). at most, it could have been a draw. in my most hopeful picture of this, anakin let obi-wan go out of some of the little compassion he still had since they had been such good friends. but i thought that might be too much to hope, and that maybe obi-wan, realizing he couldn't win and recently learning of anakin's offspring, had found a way to disappear in order to play the long game.
i imagined that other than yoda, obi-wan might have been the most elusive of all the jedi. he seemed to have a special talent for hiding and going unseen, one even anakin couldn't figure out. i remember at the end of ep. iv after vader has killed obi-wan, he seemed skeptical that he really had. i didn't think it was just how obi-wan's body vanished, which vader may have never seen such a thing before, but that he knows the old man has tricks up his sleeves and wants to be sure he's really gone this time.
anyway, i've went on enough about all of this.
Last edited by marooned; 06-08-2015 at 05:25 PM.
That was...beautiful! I'm only interested in Palpatine type now. As you said, he isn't enough paranoid and background to be NiTe imo. He is more of a TeNi. But I'll have to check reinins.
Which feeling have you got about TFA?
well, i was calling both anakin and palpatine paranoid in my last post. but paranoid probably isn't a good adjective for either of them... in eps. iv-vi i think palpatine's over-confident if anything, and he's taken on such grand visions of the future (which all of course turn out well for him), i'm not sure he fears for anything... really, he's gone rather gleefully insane by then and i think vader knows it. it's a bad sign, when vader's ideas about what is to come (his own "force predictive powers") are working better than the emperor's and i think vader knows what that means.
but what i meant really i think, is that the way i perceived the emperor in eps. iv-vi was as someone who spends a lot of time planning and envisioning and really has everyone else do stuff for him. he's rather ancient, which might be one reason he would be uninterested in engaging in combat, but i thought another reason is that he doesn't really want to risk himself. that might have applied better in eps. i-iii when he was a bit younger i guess (but really, what is 20-30 years if you're already hundreds of years old). in any case, i expected him to be unwilling to engage in any physical conflict--that's why he has anakin... to do it for him.
of course, i'm diverging from eps. i-iii, as well. for one, i didn't like the epic palpatine-yoda fight, mainly because as i saw their characters from eps. iv-vi, neither of them would have been interested in fighting. i'm sure that palpatine does like pulling out his lightening trick now and then, because being a frail looking elderly fellow (as i imagined him), foes wouldn't be expecting that. i really didn't think yoda was ever a warrior, but oh well, whatever. maybe a long time ago, palpatine might have tried his hand at combat, but i sort of thought he might consider it unwise to become a warrior. it's a good way to eventually get killed, really.
i also really didn't think the emperor had ever been a "politician" per se. he was someone who backs certain evil politicians and plays a political game behind the scenes. he doesn't do speeches or public appearances. i of course imagined that even 30 years ago he looked like evil incarnate--not a winning face for politics. perhaps he explained away his features as an unfortunate tragedy that befell him, since revealing he was hundreds of years old wouldn't really be the best approach. looking hideous as he did, he would be a person who largely kept to himself but met in private with "important people." he would probably have been quite wealthy. he needed to just look like one of the republic's aristocrats--someone very interested in the fate of the republic and concerned about the direction it was headed in. perhaps he would have many stories about the republic's history and how things were deteriorating and what were the causes.
anakin would never learn just how much string pulling he was doing, until it was much too late. and he probably never learned that palpatine had actually been destabilizing the republic to justify a restructuring... though later vader probably would have figured it all out probably sometime after realizing that palpatine had never really cared for him. he was just a pawn like all the others, and now he was stuck being a servant, like all the others. maybe palpatine never intended to bring about a better future for the republic--he just wanted power. vader still has his own twisted better future idea though, which was in part why he tried to convince luke to join him so they could overthrow the emperor together and finally mold the world into something more "ideal."
unfortunately, i'm not sure we really see enough to know what the emperor wanted to make the world into... or to know what problems he really saw in it. he's just like the ultimate evil really when we see him. really, maybe i'd be fine with anytype for him. but i'm fine with LIE... we can use reinin and say he's a positivist. his role in the relationship with vader is to declare how things will be and what must be done to get them there.
i'm sure it'll be terrible. i don't know if i wish "they'd" stop making star wars, or if i don't feel anything at all.Which feeling have you got about TFA?
Yeah, he has to be Ni. Anyhow, I was implying checking reinins, true. Let's check them:well, i was calling both anakin and palpatine paranoid in my last post. but paranoid probably isn't a good adjective for either of them... in eps. iv-vi i think palpatine's over-confident if anything, and he's taken on such grand visions of the future (which all of course turn out well for him), i'm not sure he fears for anything... really, he's gone rather gleefully insane by then and i think vader knows it. it's a bad sign, when vader's ideas about what is to come (his own "force predictive powers") are working better than the emperor's and i think vader knows what that means.
but what i meant really i think, is that the way i perceived the emperor in eps. iv-vi was as someone who spends a lot of time planning and envisioning and really has everyone else do stuff for him. he's rather ancient, which might be one reason he would be uninterested in engaging in combat, but i thought another reason is that he doesn't really want to risk himself. that might have applied better in eps. i-iii when he was a bit younger i guess (but really, what is 20-30 years if you're already hundreds of years old). in any case, i expected him to be unwilling to engage in any physical conflict--that's why he has anakin... to do it for him.
of course, i'm diverging from eps. i-iii, as well. for one, i didn't like the epic palpatine-yoda fight, mainly because as i saw their characters from eps. iv-vi, neither of them would have been interested in fighting. i'm sure that palpatine does like pulling out his lightening trick now and then, because being a frail looking elderly fellow (as i imagined him), foes wouldn't be expecting that. i really didn't think yoda was ever a warrior, but oh well, whatever. maybe a long time ago, palpatine might have tried his hand at combat, but i sort of thought he might consider it unwise to become a warrior. it's a good way to eventually get killed, really.
i also really didn't think the emperor had ever been a "politician" per se. he was someone who backs certain evil politicians and plays a political game behind the scenes. he doesn't do speeches or public appearances. i of course imagined that even 30 years ago he looked like evil incarnate--not a winning face for politics. perhaps he explained away his features as an unfortunate tragedy that befell him, since revealing he was hundreds of years old wouldn't really be the best approach. looking hideous as he did, he would be a person who largely kept to himself but met in private with "important people." he would probably have been quite wealthy. he needed to just look like one of the republic's aristocrats--someone very interested in the fate of the republic and concerned about the direction it was headed in. perhaps he would have many stories about the republic's history and how things were deteriorating and what were the causes.
anakin would never learn just how much string pulling he was doing, until it was much too late. and he probably never learned that palpatine had actually been destabilizing the republic to justify a restructuring... though later vader probably would have figured it all out probably sometime after realizing that palpatine had never really cared for him. he was just a pawn like all the others, and now he was stuck being a servant, like all the others. maybe palpatine never intended to bring about a better future for the republic--he just wanted power. vader still has his own twisted better future idea though, which was in part why he tried to convince luke to join him so they could overthrow the emperor together and finally mold the world into something more "ideal."
unfortunately, i'm not sure we really see enough to know what the emperor wanted to make the world into... or to know what problems he really saw in it. he's just like the ultimate evil really when we see him. really, maybe i'd be fine with any
i'm sure it'll be terrible. i don't know if i wish "they'd" stop making star wars, or if i don't feel anything at all.
Dynamic: Actually it isn't. It isn't unknown I mean. If you look at his mind where every person had its use and how quickly he switched between those persons...quite Hans Gruber like, no?
Yielding: Manipulates ideas, protects his interests, "if I know I can't do something, I won't and I'll forget all about it...this fits him to a T.
Democratic: Quite indeed. Just watch him in either prequels or in ep VI. He always refers to people via their names, their characteristics etc
Strategic: ...do I even need to?
Emotivist: Unknown imo
Carefree: Yeah, every battle is deifferent for him. That's what allowed him to do what he did.
Serious: ...really?
Decisive: ...seriously
Positive: you nailed it.
Result/Induction: Yes, yes he is. Just notice how many people he manipulated at the same time
Declaring: ...just listen to him.
10/11
I think that's it! Do you agree?
(with that said, I think that Palpatine is TeNi while Sidious/Emperor is NiTe. Almost like two facets of him)
Plus I always saw Anakin relation to him as a typical FiSe zeal. Fi people decidedly do have these "zeal filters" as I call them(I am basing this on me, the Hoff and some others that are pretty decidedly ESI). Once we see a person as a "person with qualities A, B and C" we see it like that for a long time. Just compare that to a scene in ep.III when Ani was forced to choose between good old Palps and Mace the Badass. Ani was quite obviously aware of what was happening and he was obviously in hell at the time. But he simply couldn't live with the most important figure in his life(Palpatine) being evil and wrong. Hence, the zeal filters closed shut, he went into full zeal mode and was practically morally blind. He went by what he BELIEVED to be true. And, thusly, allowed Palpatine to eliminate Mace(no loss there).
Exactly that scene, as well as most of later ep.II and ep.III is why I call Ani an ESI. He decidedly is an ESI at those moments.
...as for quality of writing: you are talking to a constructivist lol! Think I care?
Last edited by nondescript; 06-09-2015 at 09:36 PM. Reason: updated dynamic
i'm not so sure about that... i thought it was more that, as he said, he needed palpatine to save padme. he was convinced that she was going to die like his mother had, and as we saw in ep. ii, he believed that he'd failed his mother by not being there/able to save her. he promised he wouldn't fail again. because he is psychologically weak (he has this hole in him that formed from the initial separation with his mother), he can't help but begin to worry that he might lose padme too. she could be taken from him by "fate" just like his mother was, and to prevent that he must use his powers. he sees himself as rather all-powerful (or as one who should be all-powerful), and that's what palpatine capitalizes upon: anakin's fear of loss and his arrogance. palpatine spins the tale that it's the jedi who would just let padme die, for they keep the knowledge that the dark side can save people from anakin (they lie). palpatine, after anakin exposes him, seems like the only one who can show him how to save padme... he's the only way anakin can possibly get these powers. after palpatine kills mace, anakin swears his allegiance, pleading that palpatine just help him save padme's life. "i can't live without her," he says.
so, in short, it's kind of a strategic move. he chose palpatine over mace because he needs palpatine alive and able to help him save padme. mace would not be able (or willing) to help in the least with this--in fact, mace would just make everything worse for him.
oh and adding on, really the "dark thing" rearing its ugly head under all of this is just that anakin wants to be all-powerful. his "lust for power," as obi-wan put it. by the end of ep. iii it's kind of clear that he cares more about his powers than even padme, who before he thought was his reason for doing this. it's supposed to illustrate i suppose how once you "start on the dark path," it just ends up being this hate wheel that just spins faster and faster, until your only reason for doing anything is hate.
anyway, anakin's fear of loss (since "fear is the path to the dark side," etc.) was the cause of all of this really. the hole in him as a child grew as he did and he became an obsessive and clingy adult. he can't fulfill himself of his own broken being, so he needs an other (like padme, or palpatine, or his own hatred/power) to fill the hole for him. he will go to desperate measures not to lose whatever plug is stuffing the hole. yoda i think even saw this flaw from the beginning--it was in his noticing how anakin missed his mother. "too old to begin the training" can also mean "too late."
Last edited by marooned; 06-09-2015 at 04:45 PM.
I thought Anakin was a pretty clear SLE.
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| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
Depends on the episode and the writing. What is certain is that he is a Se, just as it is that Palpatine is a Ni.
I'm just gonna step in here to point out that not a single character in Star Wars was multi-dimensional/deep enough to warrant a sociotype.
Definitely duals!
lol wtf did I just watch
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