Expressions of Joy in Terms of Ethical Functions

[Radio]

NOTE: This post only covers Ethical types. I might do one for Logical types later.

These are based on my observations, and generally seem to hold true in my experience.

Rule of thumb:
Fi is internal, emotional expression via resonance.
Fe is external, emotional expression via reciprocity.

Fe-base:
The most obviously charismatic with their expressions, bold and open to smile, infectious, inductive.


Jennifer Lopez (Fe-ESFj)


Tyra Banks (Fe-ENFj)


Liz Phair (Ni-ENFj)


Jessica Biel (?-ExFj)


Paula Abdul (Si-ESFj)

Their smiles stretch all over the face, up to the eyes.

Unlike Fi egos, however, their smiles aren't internally resonant. That's not to say the emotion they feel isn't genuine, it's just meant to convey a certain feeling, a certain message, emotional expression as means to create social rapport. A good indicator is to notice their eyes, even if they squint, are more aware, more deliberate. Compare it to Fi types.

Fi-base:

Slightly reserved, expressive, soft, eyes show emotion despite however large or small the smile is.


Robert Pattinson (Ne-INFj)


Joni Mitchell (Fi-INFj)


Jeff Mangum (Ne-INFj)


Nicole Fox (Fi-ISFj)



Bob Dylan (Se-ISFj)

Notice how in Nicole Fox's second pic, her eyes are showing the emotion she's feeling, you can see her smile resonates with her internally. Similarly Bob Dylan, even if he isn't overtly expressive, notice how his eyes are into it even at the smallest hint of a smile.

Fe-Creative:

Shier than Fe-base, less openly expressive, but has the same thing going on. It seems like forcing out a smile when it doesn't feel natural seems to be a trend with Fe types.


Paul McCartney (Fe-ISFp)


Selena Gomez (Fe-ISFp)


DJ Pauly D (Fe-ISFp)


Justin Bieber (Fe-ISFp)


Tupac Shakur (INFp)


Fiona Apple (Ni-INFp)

You can sort of see the discomfort in Justin Bieber's his eyes, despite his wide smile, same with Tupac and Pauly D. Sort of an awareness beyond the emotion. Although McCartney and Gomez are more natural at it, playing it to their advantage.

Fi-Creative:

Open, expressive, resonant.


Craig Ferguson (Se-ESFp)


George Clooney (Se-ESFp)


Joseph Gordon-Levitt (Fi-ENFp)


Russell Crowe (ESFp)


Ellen Degeneres (Fi-ENFp)


Ginnifer Goodwin (Fi-ENFp)

Very similar to Fi-base smiles, but more engaging. When you look at the Fi-base pictures you can see they're sort of holding it back, tending towards control and the emotion is still bursting out. With Fi-creatives, there's less resistance, the emotion is more inclusive and open. Again, the point of focus being the eyes, which are almost always reflecting their emotional state.

---

Idea taken from Maritsa's thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=38732

[Taknamay]

Logical types always keep a straight face

D:

[mu4]

If you type someone like Paul McCartney a introtim, you're on the wrong track. This is someone whose domineering behavior cause his bandmates to resent him.

As far as a actual SEI, Ringo Starr is the SEI, he was so distressed by the conflict in the group he ran away for a few weeks. When he came back, George was the only one to give him some flowers.
I type George LII, and his issues with Paul were so bad(these two had been mates since a very young age), that George said he would never play with Paul again.

George and Ringo were the only two to remain close after the breakup of the Beatles, and I think this is due to both of them sharing a quadra. And they remained friends despite Ringo's wife cheating with George...

“Ringo is Ringo, that’s all there is to it. And he’s every bloody bit as warm, unassuming, funny, and kind as he seems. He was quite simply the heart of the Beatles.” – John Lennon

LENNON: Ringo was a star in his own right in Liverpool before we even met. He was a professional drummer who sang and performed and had Ringo Star-time and he was in one of the top groups in Britain but especially in Liverpool before we even had a drummer. So Ringo's talent would have come out one way or the other as something or other. I don't know what he would have ended up as, but whatever that spark is in Ringo that we all know but can't put our finger on -- whether it is acting, drumming or singing I don't know -- there is something in him that is projectable and he would have surfaced with or without the Beatles. Ringo is a damn good drummer. He is not technically good, but I think Ringo's drumming is underrated the same way Paul's bass playing is underrated. Paul was one of the most innovative bass players ever. And half the stuff that is going on now is directly ripped off from his Beatles period. He is an egomaniac about everything else about himself, but his bass playing he was always a bit coy about. I think Paul and Ringo stand up with any of the rock musicians. Not technically great -- none of us are technical musicians. None of us could read music. None of us can write it. But as pure musicians, as inspired humans to make the noise, they are as good as anybody.

Just look at the differences in perspectives from the John. I think typing from VI without considering the actual personality of the person is a bad idea, I would recommend type otherwise before relying on VI. VI is for expedience imo vs accuracy.

[Creepy-female]

Radio, ask Nanashi for her material on this. They did this somewhere with all the types, even thinkers..

[ashlesha]

a lot of these could be switched and with the power of suggestion people could see the same thing.

[Absurd]

Another Joy thread? Oh come on people, let's talk about something else.

[EyeSeeCold]

Radio, your typings are questionable.

Look to Hkkmr for an example of a more constructive response. Detracting from Radio's thread without examples or explantions supporting your position doesn't help at all.

[glam]

Radio, your typings are questionable.

yeah, sorry Radio but i disagree with a lot of the typings.

Jennifer Lopez, Tyra Banks, Justin Bieber: SEE
Robert Pattinson: IEI?
Bob Dylan: not ESI
Selena Gomez: ESI?
Pauly D: idk but not SEI
Fiona Apple: ILI
Joseph Gordon-Levitt: ILE?

[WVBRY]

It seems like forcing out a smile when it doesn't feel natural seems to be a trend with Fe types.

Oh cmon. Theyre posing. For pictures.

Edit: I know Im sorta missing your point here, which is that theyre all psoing for pictures, but theyre all smiling too so you could say all their smiles are unnatural, since theyre posing for photographers, plus even if these are papparazi pictures, theyre all photos of the person smiling. You could find photos of these people not smiling if you wanted to and make a case for the opposite; egos dont force out smiles unnaturally.

[Leader]

Terrible typings >.>'

[Ryan]

Regardless of the accuracy of the typings, this is a pleasant thread. I actually disagree with ESC. I think even hkkmr is doing a great de-service for this thread by focusing on the types. Instead, I'd love to explore the concept of Joy as illustrated by the OP and contemplate its validity.

[Korpsy Knievel]

Terrible typings >.>'

Your honor as a gentleman and obligation as a scholar behoove you to demonstrate your discernment by listing the true and faithful ones.

[Park]

Ha! Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Always liked that guy. I'd probably have typed him Fe-ISFp or something... IEE sounds good though.

[Park]

Joseph Gordon-Levitt: ILE?

Just out of curiosity, would you type DJ Quik ILE?

[woofwoofl]

I agree. Additionally, I think you'd be able to find other photos of the same celebrities that resemble a different "Joy type".

e.g. here's George Clooney being Tyra and J-Lo's "Joy" identical

I was gonna post some of that as a compare/contrast; notice George's eyes in comparison to the other two? Or the entire grouping of Fi Creatives as opposed to the entire grouping of Fe dominants? The Fi Creatives have more wrinkle going on to the sides of their eyes, and have their eyes more closed, while the Fe Dominants have their eyes much more open and the skin to the sides of their eyes are more straight.

[EyeSeeCold]

Regardless of the accuracy of the typings, this is a pleasant thread. I actually disagree with ESC. I think even hkkmr is doing a great de-service for this thread by focusing on the types. Instead, I'd love to explore the concept of Joy as illustrated by the OP and contemplate its validity.

Of the people discontent in this thread two things happened: they waved away Radio's efforts pretentiously, without offering anything to back up their positions; they backed up their position, even though they disagreed with Radio's typings.

The thread is alright, but if you're going to focus on the types and claim they're wrong at least substantiate your position. Which is what Hkkmr did and why I agreed with what he did as a constructive response.

[silke]

I was gonna post some of that as a compare/contrast; notice George's eyes in comparison to the other two? Or the entire grouping of Fi Creatives as opposed to the entire grouping of Fe dominants? The Fi Creatives have more wrinkle going on to the sides of their eyes, and have their eyes more closed, while the Fe Dominants have their eyes much more open and the skin to the sides of their eyes are more straight.

I'd say Fe-eyes tend to have more outward, expressive radiance while Fi-eyes have this sort of inner, hidden softness, but dude, having wrinkles is not type related, it's more of an effect of age and gender - the Fi-creative women don't have them

[woofwoofl]

I'd say Fe-eyes tend to have more outward, expressive radiance while Fi-eyes have this sort of inner, hidden softness

excellent way to put that

but dude, having wrinkles is not type related

Agreed, and not at all what I was getting at; compare this:





...to this:





The Fe Dominants have much more relaxation in the areas of skin in the region between the temple and the eye itself, likely due to muscles contracting in different ways to nonverbally communicate things differently than the Fi Creatives...

[Galen]

I second pretty much everything in this thread. All the Fe faces seem to be projecting some emotionality to the outer world, something about it seems much less organic and more forced than the Fi variants who all generally seem to have their feelings bubbling up naturally. There may be some sort of warmth to it in a superficial way, but I still get an impression of it being put on a bit. It's almost like they aren't communicating themselves as happy, but more the notion of happiness as an entity in and of itself. Could just be an intertype-related reaction though and not something everybody will get.

For the sake of fairness I should probably get some Fe-leading male faces into the mix. For some reason finding male EXFj happiness faces is kinda hard.

Tom Cruise: Fe-ESFj


Patrick Stewart: Si-ESFj


Conway Twitty: Fe-ENFj


Robert Goulet: ?Ni?-ENFj

DJ Pauly D (Fe-ISFp)

ugh, how can things like that be allowed to live
Hooray instantaneous hate vibes

[woofwoofl]

excellent on the pics Galen

Also note that the intensity of the smile generally correlates positively to how open the eyes are in Fe Dominants, and generally correlates negatively to how open the eyes are in Fi Creatives...

[Kierva]

They're using a lot of adjectives that I can't really distinguish at first glance; like Fe base being more "outwardly radiant" and Fi base being "softer".

What am I looking out for in their eyes?

[woofwoofl]

They're using a lot of adjectives that I can't really distinguish at first glance; like Fe base being more "outwardly radiant" and Fi base being "softer".

What am I looking out for in their eyes?

In short? Squinting (Fi). Especially when contrasted with what looks to me like a concerted effort to keep the eyes open (Fe)...

[silke]

Agreed, and not at all what I was getting at; compare this:

The Fe Dominants have much more relaxation in the areas of skin in the region between the temple and the eye itself, likely due to muscles contracting in different ways to nonverbally communicate things differently than the Fi Creatives...

ah you mean the squinting ... that's a good observation, I haven't paid attention to this before but I see what you mean now

[mu4]

http://watchalife.wordpress.com/2010/02/21/micro-expression-how-a-severely-depressive-person-fake-her-smile/

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...curious-thing/

IMO, this could easily be just the effect of Duchene smile, real smile, and social smile.


Social Smile vs Real Smile

Taking pictures of real smiles and placing them beside pictures of social smiles and using it to type is highly suspect.


And these wrinkles and etc are just "Real" smiles. When people make real smiles, that's what happens. Anyways, there is actually not that many real smiles in this thread.
As far as comparing the wrinkles of 50 year old men vs 20-40 yo women, I don't think the amount of wrinkle matters.

Also with women, they do not want a lot of wrinkles, and well surgery and prevention does happen.



SEE, this is a real smile too.

Also I want to note that in Tyra's real smile, there is also suprise, due to the raise eyebrows, and wide eyes, which would reduce the wrinkles(not that this matters imo).


This goes for Robert Goulet and Robin Williams too.

[Radio]

Radio, your typings are awesome.

Thanks!

I was gonna post some of that as a compare/contrast; notice George's eyes in comparison to the other two? Or the entire grouping of Fi Creatives as opposed to the entire grouping of Fe dominants? The Fi Creatives have more wrinkle going on to the sides of their eyes, and have their eyes more closed, while the Fe Dominants have their eyes much more open and the skin to the sides of their eyes are more straight.

All the Fe faces seem to be projecting some emotionality to the outer world, something about it seems much less organic and more forced than the Fi variants who all generally seem to have their feelings bubbling up naturally. There may be some sort of warmth to it in a superficial way, but I still get an impression of it being put on a bit. It's almost like they aren't communicating themselves as happy, but more the notion of happiness as an entity in and of itself. Could just be an intertype-related reaction though and not something everybody will get.

Yes.

The Fi ego smiles seem more subdued to me. Clooney's smile seems radically different to me in that lineup compared to Banks and Lopez.

Agree.

 

Jennifer Lopez, Tyra Banks, Justin Bieber: SEE

Bieber is nothing like either Lopez or Banks. I could sort of see SEE for him, but then I wouldn't put him as the same type as the other two. Bieber comes off as subdued and introverted in his interviews like an IxFx type, whereas Banks comes off as explosive, loud and reactive in a way ExFx types can be. I cannot see them as identicals at all.

Robert Pattinson: IEI?

IJ temperament.

Bob Dylan: not ESI

Benchmark ESI, IMO.

Selena Gomez: ESI?

If you watch her interviews, she primarily engages people with Fe rather than Fi.

Pauly D: idk but not SEI

Blasphemy!

Fiona Apple: ILI

Maybe, possibly. Haven't really looked into her too thoroughly.

Joseph Gordon-Levitt: ILE?

Nah.

Agree that page is ILE, but I think it stands out in this vid how much more "space" Gordon-Levitt takes up with his movements, and how much more energy goes into his expressions, and how much more constantly he reacts. Granted, this could be attributed to something nearly orthogonal to socionics such as general drive or sociability, but he just seems so dominated by Ne to me, especially in how he uses his facial expressions as punctuation. When ENTps make those kinds of expressions, I think they tend to come across as jarring or goofy. Gordon-Levitt just looks so damn comfortable and easy-going in the way he expresses himself, and comes off as amiable but not intrusive. These qualities I think are more indicative of Ne-ENFp.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post833942

---

hkkmr, it's not about wrinkles, while woofwoofl made an interesting observation which is largely true, I see it as more of a general vibe, and I find it easier to evaluate that way. Something as subtle as facial expressions cannot be taken out of its context, deconstructed and converted into axioms, you risk losing the finer details and the implicit meaning they hold, and that's what I see happening here.

For instance, you brought this picture up:



And while it's true there are no wrinkles around the eyes, that's hardly the point. That does not make her Fe-dominant, and neither am I using that as a measuring stick. What does the expression mean? What is it conveying? That's important and that's what makes her Fe-dominant. The expression is outward, meant to induce some sort of emotion, or affirmation, to create rapport or carry the emotional atmosphere.

When you compare it to this, while on surface they might seem similar in shape and form:



The vibe is entirely different, the meaning is different, the purpose is different. Like I said, when you take the expressions out of their context, you lose all the implicit and subtle nuances and what remains is only a crude, abstracted parody of the real thing.

[ashlesha]

i really think this kind of thing is best noticed and kept to yourself.

debating over whether someone has a smile that is "inductive" or "resonant" is not only silly but totally prone to suggestion and i can't help but think that as smart as i think most of you are you have to be kind of gullible, i mean come on lol.

smh

[Radio]

debating over whether someone has a smile that is "inductive" or "resonant" is not only silly but totally prone to suggestion and i can't help but think that as smart as i think most of you are you have to be kind of gullible, i mean come on lol.

you can choose to not take part in our collective mental masturbation but you don't have to be a dick about it

[ashlesha]

mental masturbation

ok this is the safeword if you know thats all it is then by all means.

[mu4]

hkkmr, it's not about wrinkles, while woofwoofl made an interesting observation which is largely true, I see it as more of a general vibe, and I find it easier to evaluate that way. Something as subtle as facial expressions cannot be taken out of its context, deconstructed and converted into axioms, you risk losing the finer details and the implicit meaning they hold, and that's what I see happening here.

For instance, you brought this picture up:



And while it's true there are no wrinkles around the eyes, that's hardly the point. That does not make her Fe-dominant, and neither am I using that as a measuring stick. What does the expression mean? What is it conveying? That's important and that's what makes her Fe-dominant. The expression is outward, meant to induce some sort of emotion, or affirmation, to create rapport or carry the emotional atmosphere.

When you compare it to this, while on surface they might seem similar in shape and form:



The vibe is entirely different, the meaning is different, the purpose is different. Like I said, when you take the expressions out of their context, you lose all the implicit and subtle nuances and what remains is only a crude, abstracted parody of the real thing.

You missed the point and the other emotions and information in these pictures... The point is that a lot of the pictures you posted weren't even enjoyment smiles, but social smiles....

For example, Jessica Beal and Tupac is only making social smiles not a enjoyment smiles.

And their is a difference here between Clooney's pic here and Tyra's pic is surprise, so of course the meaning is different.

IMO, you need to justify Tyra's type without these pictures and all the other typings prior to making these assessment.

Are you trying to type by VI or analyze based on some other typing, otherwise your reasoning is circular.

I don't disagree with all of the typings, but the burden of proof is on you for the typings.

The other reasonings which have been posted such as "wide-eyed" smiles generally indicate surprise or a social smile, since real smiles is indicated by narrowing eyes.

I think there are general difference in how the various types display emotion in general, but I think some of the typing in the OP are not agreed on so require explanation from you.

As far as other typings I think Bieber is EIE and Selena Gomez is a Fi type, imo SEE of some sort.

I generally find Selena's interviews like this..

17: Is she your best friend?SG: I’ve gotten to the point where the label of “best friend” is so ridiculous. If you have three people in your life that you can trust, you can consider yourself the luckiest person in the whole world. I have a lot of wonderful people in my life—probably five, collectively—who I can tell everything to. There’s Jennifer [Stone], my friend Ashley, and Taylor, and my two cousins.
17: Has it always been easy for you with friends? Or have you ever had a friendship fall apart?
SG: Yes. You reflect on the people who used to be in your life, and it’s like, ‘Wow, I can’t believe that person was ever really in my life.’ But people are put into your life for seasons, for different reasons, and to teach you lessons. You’re growing and changing, and eventually, you can go from having all these friends to feeling like you have no one, because you’ve been betrayed, or you’ve gone through things. But in this moment, I’m in such a good place with my friends. I feel confident and I’m happy there are people who I can truly trust in my life.
17: And if a person does betray you, do you ever give second chances?
SG: I believe in second chances, but I don’t believe in third or fourth chances. I love talking through things, and I always want to make things work, if I really love someone, but eventually, if they can’t fix whatever is wrong, or if they’ve done something and then they continue to do it, they’re probably not going to change for anybody. You can’t change a person. Jennifer Stone has told me a thousand times: “You want to be friends with people who double you, not cut you in half.”
17: As far as friends who change, or go through something, you obviously went through that withDemi. Are you two still close?
SG: Yes, of course. There’s an amount of love that can never—no matter what—be taken away or torn apart, no matter the situation. There are certain people who you will always, always love, so if anything, this just reminded me of how much I truly love her.
17: It’s so nice to be able to open yourself up to love that way. Do you feel like you’ve ever been in love before?
SG: I don’t know. I maybe had a first love and had my heart broken, but reflecting on it, I don’t think that was love. I think that was just me being fifteen and going, "Oh my gosh! I know I’m in love. I’m going to marry him." So I don’t think that was love. I think as I’m getting older and having more in-depth relationships, maybe I’ll experience it. At the moment, I don’t know, exactly, if I’ve been in love.
17: But when you did feel like you were in love, how did you deal when it ended?
SG: I’ve very emotional. When I went through my first breakup, I thought it was the end of the world, and I thought I was going to die if I didn’t have him in my life. It was good to cry it out, and just scream, or call my friends in the middle of the night crying. You can’t shut down, you can’t say, ‘What can I do to make this go away?’. You have to let it be painful and get through it. Every day gets better. Because when you’re in love, you kind of give everything and make that person your life. So every day you get more and more of yourself back, and it feels better.

Selena Gomez: I was very dramatic as a kid. I loved to entertain. I was taking my bathing suits and painting them black and putting sparkles on them because I thought I was going to go on stage. I was just very crazy as a kid. I always wanted to entertain. When I was about seven is when I started doing it professionally and my mom helped me and I started to go through auditions. I was really excited! The first day I stepped on a set was for "Barney" and it was really fun. I had never worked with cameras or a producer or a director before so it was different. I was excited!

Oakland County Moms: You had to film in several beautiful locations for Monte Carlo. Which was your favorite?


Selena Gomez: They were all amazing for different reasons! I shot most of the film in Hungary, which was really fun. I guess my favorite would be Monte Carlo because it was so beautiful but I could only take it for, like, a week (laughs). It's a really fancy place but I like to be in my sweatpants most of the time, so... But, it was gorgeous. The water was so blue and clear. The sand was awesome and the food was great.

Oakland County Moms: Did you enjoy the homeschooling aspect (of your education) or would you have rather have been part of a high school atmosphere/school atmosphere?

Selena Gomez: I didn't mind it. There are a few moments where I would have liked to have gone to school but it didn't bother me. I did most of my schooling on "Wizards" so I was with my other cast on my show. I had interactive people around me so it wasn't just me in a white room with just a tutor. So I had people helping me and had kids my own age.

Oakland County Moms: If you could write your next movie and pick your own co-stars, what would it be?

Selena Gomez: Oh Goodness... It would be a romance with Zac Efron (laughs)! But, that's probably not going to happen (laughs)! I'm kidding! I love Natalie Portman and Rachel McAdams and Shia LaBeouf. I would love to work with those kinds of actors. Especially Shia because he came from Disney Channel so I'd love to be able to pick his brain about that even though I'm sure he's tired of talking about it. I guess it would not be a comedy. Maybe a drama.

Althrough these interviews contain some info, it's generally highlighted by information, personal connections and desires as well as concrete descriptions of the world and concrete actions done to things to change them such as taking bathing suits, painting it black and putting sparkles on them. Sort of the same stuff woof says about buckwheat groat.

Also take a look at a SEI and how they talk, this is specifically about food but it turns into gatherings, events, meetings, and the relationships specifics are not highlighted, but subdued, yet still very important, as this is the 8th function.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/oct/21/foodanddrink1

As always, I want to focus on the fact that socionics is about communication, verbal and non verbal. I think VI is unreliable and a typing needs to be reasonably assured from a non VI perspective before making this sort of associations without explanation.

[munenori2]

Maybe I'm emotion face retarded, but reading most of the descriptions trying to explain or justify how the observations in this thread are accurate just makes me think, "WTF are you looking at?"

[glam]

Regardless of the accuracy of the typings, this is a pleasant thread. I actually disagree with ESC. I think even hkkmr is doing a great de-service for this thread by focusing on the types. Instead, I'd love to explore the concept of Joy as illustrated by the OP and contemplate its validity.

i don't think so at all, because the entire point of the thread is to look at the supposed differences between the expressions of joy/smiles of people who are supposedly Ethical types. in order to contrast something like this, the types of the people have to be determined first. if there are too many suspect typings in the mix, then the entire exercise becomes sort of meaningless because incorrect typings will lead to incorrect conclusions. i think the real disservice here would be to take the accuracy of someone else's typings for granted.

Just out of curiosity, would you type DJ Quik ILE?

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/20...uik1.jpg?w=427

ahh sorry not sure, because i don't know anything about him.

[Ryan]

i don't think so at all, because the entire point of the thread is to look at the supposed differences between the expressions of joy/smiles of people who are supposedly Ethical types. in order to contrast something like this, the types of the people have to be determined first. if there are too many suspect typings in the mix, then the entire exercise becomes sort of meaningless because incorrect typings will lead to incorrect conclusions. i think the real disservice here would be to take the accuracy of someone else's typings for granted.

Your entire post could be summed as: Ti > Te. It's pretty funny, especially when I'm the Ti base here.

I've made similar observations before, so it's a topic of interest to me. It does seem like VI, in general, is a Te thing though.

[munenori2]

You mean duckface isn't a spontaneous sign of someone's type?!