Do you think one of the main issues with supervision is that the supervisee does not feel "heard" or understood properly.
The problem with supervision
Do you think one of the main issues with supervision is that the supervisee does not feel "heard" or understood properly.
Last edited by Iwantpeace; 09-03-2020 at 08:35 PM.
From my experiences it feels like the supervisee is suppose to understand what the superviser say using the supervisors frame of mind. It is the supervisors take on the world that get the last say and is most important.
I try to bend it to the positive, the supervisor needs the demonstrative element of the supervisee which make the supervisee in charge.
ESEs only listen to me when I do an emotional external display (like evident anger).
Most of the times I need to give a negatively charged loud response to get ESE literally listening to what I'm saying. This occurs mostly between family members, guess.
A typical conversation with ESE:
ESE: Hello how are you darling?
SLI: I'm good.
ESE: good?
SLI: I'm fine
ESE: Mmmhh?
SLI: *sigh*
ESE: what's the matter? is everything okay?
SLI: I-t-i-s-o-k-a-y
ESE: Are you saaad? ♪♪♫
SLI:
ESE: Are you aaangryyy? Why are you so aaaangry?♪♪♫♪♪♫
SLI: I'M NOT ANGRY, OR SAD OKAY?!!!
ESE: Why are you always so grouchy? Bad SLI.
SLI: Because I've been repeating myself for 5 minutes!!!!
ESE: Did you eat yet?
SLI: Yeah
ESE: Mmmmhh?
SLI: Yes
ESE: Yeees?
SLI: Yes
ESE: Yeeees? Are you suuuureee?
SLI: *sigh*
ESE: Are you lying to meeee?
SLI: I ATE, OKAY?!!! AAGHH!!!
I think that ESEs are partially deaf to words (words lacking of emotion) and they are always looking in communication for emotional signs or reactions (FeSi).
Last edited by Hope; 07-07-2017 at 08:01 PM.
I used to work for an ESE and I would like to starve him from Fe for like weeks at a time only to drop a juicy morsel on him when it really counted. He loved me
Even though they subconsciously bully and consciously seek a reaction every time, they deep down love it when you're mostly buttoned up and then occasionally give them something because it creates context that is constantly out of whack in their day to day lives because of the amount of pressure they exude. its like you bring a degree of order to the chaos and they don't know why exactly but they love it even though it seems like they're getting the opposite of what they want
the trick is to just not take them seriously, which sounds awful but its precisely the source of real hurt feelings because you have to think of their emoting as trivial to some degree in order to not confront them over the emotional pressure they put out, or to ignore it but not ignore it and let it lead to resentment which ultimately results in a negative blow up, whereas if you're just like "this is all kind of trifling" and then kind of "get serious" only when the situation actually merits it they will actually appreciate it because its precisely their own lack of understanding that results in them (seemingly) "being serious" (i.e.: emoting at an 11) all the time which really means none of the time, so for deciding for them when it matters and when its not actually brings much needed meaning and structure to their interactions
the difficulty is this requires a shitload of discipline if you're not LII
I just think of it like "im just going to roll with the punches with this person" and try to be merry
Eh, I think the same goes for any other Fe-valuers (perhaps to a lesser extent though). I like people who want a reaction, it satisfies my own need to be reacted to as well. Sometimes feels like I'm talking to a brick wall when speaking with Fe PoLR types.Originally Posted by Sorrows
Phobic So/Sp 6w7 3w2 9w1
Bit of a comic books nerd, bit of a fashion nerd, a lot of a generalized nerd
The problem is in the way the functions interplay with each other. It puts the supervisee in a mentally vulnerable position.
I think not being understood is secondary.
I notice supervision instantly, even before I have typed the person as LSE. Makes me feel like all blood us sucked out of me.
The LSE doesn't have to say anything special. Not "giving me Te" or anything like that.
Previous experience of supervision was one reason why it was fairly easy for me to learn socionics. It is a very distinct feeling of being internally uncomfortable. It might also have something to do with me being Si base, that I notice this.
Knowing this helps a lot though. I usually don't have any problems with LSE, as long as I accept being a little uncomfortable.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
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Their demonstrativemakes me very annoyed indeed.
Sometimes when I was making experiments it was instantly brushed off as non-working solution (it still gives important data to use it somewhere else). I was totally aware that they were bit desperate.
When they go on their internal emotional rollercoaster = annoying.
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Stuff like this makes me super confirm myself as LII. I can totally imagine being on the receiving end of that and being unable to stop myself from smiling because they're being such annoying shits.ESEs only listen to me when I do an emotional external display (like evident anger).
Most of the times I need to give a negatively charged loud response to get ESE literally listening to what I'm saying. This occurs mostly between family members, guess.
A typical conversation with ESE:
ESE: Hello how are you darling?
SLI: I'm good.
ESE: good?
SLI: I'm fine
ESE: Mmmhh?
SLI: *sigh*
ESE: what's the matter? is everything okay?
SLI: I-t-i-s-o-k-a-y
ESE: Are you saaad? ♪♪♫
SLI:
ESE: Are you aaangryyy? Why are you so aaaangry?♪♪♫♪♪♫
SLI: I'M NOT ANGRY, OR SAD OKAY?!!!
ESE: Why are you always so grouchy? Bad SLI.
SLI: Because I've been repeating myself for 5 minutes!!!!
ESE: Did you eat yet?
SLI: Yeah
ESE: Mmmmhh?
SLI: Yes
ESE: Yeees?
SLI: Yes
ESE: Yeeees? Are you suuuureee?
SLI: *sigh*
ESE: Are you lying to meeee?
SLI: I ATE, OKAY?!!! AAGHH!!!
I think that ESEs are partially deaf to words (words lacking of emotion) and they are always looking in communication for emotional signs or reactions (FeSi).
Also, great work with the choice of emoticons! They were maybe the most appropriate emoticons for each sentence.
Not super good at typing other people but with people who I think are IEE I think I sometimes get overly caught up in trying to point out why something they said doesn't quite make sense, when it's actually not that important for what we're trying to make a decision on. I think IEE feels I made us spend all this mental energy trying to agree on something which wasn't really necessary.
Warm Regards,
Clowns & Entropy
Yes, ESEs are big on positivity. They can get too worried about expression (or in case of SLI - lack of it).
I'm more comfortable with larger variety. I think SEIs have more of it.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Accurate af, could be my mother.ESEs only listen to me when I do an emotional external display (like evident anger).
Most of the times I need to give a negatively charged loud response to get ESE literally listening to what I'm saying. This occurs mostly between family members, guess.
A typical conversation with ESE:
ESE: Hello how are you darling?
SLI: I'm good.
ESE: good?
SLI: I'm fine
ESE: Mmmhh?
SLI: *sigh*
ESE: what's the matter? is everything okay?
SLI: I-t-i-s-o-k-a-y
ESE: Are you saaad? ♪♪♫
SLI:
ESE: Are you aaangryyy? Why are you so aaaangry?♪♪♫♪♪♫
SLI: I'M NOT ANGRY, OR SAD OKAY?!!!
ESE: Why are you always so grouchy? Bad SLI.
SLI: Because I've been repeating myself for 5 minutes!!!!
ESE: Did you eat yet?
SLI: Yeah
ESE: Mmmmhh?
SLI: Yes
ESE: Yeees?
SLI: Yes
ESE: Yeeees? Are you suuuureee?
SLI: *sigh*
ESE: Are you lying to meeee?
SLI: I ATE, OKAY?!!! AAGHH!!!
I think that ESEs are partially deaf to words (words lacking of emotion) and they are always looking in communication for emotional signs or reactions (FeSi).Man Fe-doms even annoy me occasioally and I am Fe creative (I do have some of these tendencies too occasionally).
Last edited by dot; 07-10-2017 at 03:11 PM.
So true, used to have this super mean ESE-Fe guy at school who constantly tried to provoke people occasionally but as their supervisor I naturally can't take ESEs that seriously.. and while my ILE friend back then was almost about to say something, I instinctively answered him in the most neutral manner. Like I really didn't give a shit about anything he said, because I knew he lived to just get reactions out of people. I naturally took away any drive he had and actually started serious conversations.I used to work for an ESE and I would like to starve him from Fe for like weeks at a time only to drop a juicy morsel on him when it really counted. He loved me
Even though they subconsciously bully and consciously seek a reaction every time, they deep down love it when you're mostly buttoned up and then occasionally give them something because it creates context that is constantly out of whack in their day to day lives because of the amount of pressure they exude. its like you bring a degree of order to the chaos and they don't know why exactly but they love it even though it seems like they're getting the opposite of what they want
the trick is to just not take them seriously, which sounds awful but its precisely the source of real hurt feelings because you have to think of their emoting as trivial to some degree in order to not confront them over the emotional pressure they put out, or to ignore it but not ignore it and let it lead to resentment which ultimately results in a negative blow up, whereas if you're just like "this is all kind of trifling" and then kind of "get serious" only when the situation actually merits it they will actually appreciate it because its precisely their own lack of understanding that results in them (seemingly) "being serious" (i.e.: emoting at an 11) all the time which really means none of the time, so for deciding for them when it matters and when its not actually brings much needed meaning and structure to their interactions
the difficulty is this requires a shitload of discipline if you're not LII
I just think of it like "im just going to roll with the punches with this person" and try to be merry
Last edited by dot; 07-10-2017 at 08:58 PM.
What I've noticed with my supervisor is that they'll stop me in my tracks when I'm talking about something with Ti. I guess so what I say registers more or to fill in gaps, or something. Sometimes it's actually helpful and other times it annoys me, but overall I do like them. I just kind of zone out if they go on long about Ti things. I can agree with the supervisee not getting totally heard. I notice less of a friction when I "supervise" EIIs, but basically what I do with them is constantly remind them to be open to more things and to not focus on Fi and Ne as much.
Just like Fe base feels like Ti base reacts in just the way they want, I feel like ILIs respond in just the way I need. I'm not sure if I can describe that perfectly right now, though.
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Ok, I try to phrase it differently.
Your dual gives you what you need AND want. Your supervisor just gives you what you need but might not necessarily want.
What you need can be hated but your dual packages it with something you want for your mobilizing function, their creative (want) covering up the demonstrative (need). Also serving their base for your suggestive obviously.
@Daddy Lessons that way?
Yes.
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Gooood.Yes.
This is so spot on for the ESE & SLI couple we were discussing in another thread. They have a great relationship, but I can see these elements resurfacing all the time..
It's exactly as you say: she needs an emotional - specifically Fe response - which she's not getting, so she can't always understand his words. And that need to re-explain makes him feel overlooked, or that is how it looks to me.
My father is an ILE, my supervisor. He understands me and inspires me more than anyone else in my family or immediate circle growing up, and we work together on projects. But at the same time, there's something that goes wrong. I could, perhaps, boil it down to him being broad-minded and feeling like I'm ignorant about the world because I'm very very focused on my fields of specialty and interest. He also offers several options whereas I tend to pursue one, and then he says there's a better way or an alternate way to do something, and that annoys me because I'm already fast and proficient at the one I am doing, but I don't want to explain my process in words, because it's never quite accurate (I am a kinesthetic learner, and I joke that I 'think with my hands'). And he also insists he has no core and is always changing; which I think is bullshit because he's very consistent. But he probably gets that idea of himself because he'll say things like, "I just thought of an idea for a movie! I should quit my job, buy some cameras and produce it!" or "Maybe we should move to Arizona!" and then fantasizes about this sudden revelation. As a kid, it felt very unstable and I would over-react to random suggestions about huge changes. Now, I know better than to take him seriously, but it's hard to entertain such nonsense without getting annoyed or saying something realistic, such as, "You don't have enough money to buy those cameras" or "You can't move without divorcing Mom, since she has her work here too." Which to him is irrelevant/paranoid.
I spent my childhood arguing back and forth with him, and while I was the only person on Earth who could actually win arguments against him, it was not a guarantee haha, and I ended up learning to know when to say "Just because you're better at arguing doesn't mean you're right."
At the same time, his mind is always several steps ahead of mine. I often ask him "can you explain [X political issue]" and i can trust he will go back to its origins, its future possibilities, the trajectory, the reasons, everyone's different views etc, and break it down and enjoy it. Very impressive..
Last edited by Volcana; 07-10-2017 at 06:50 PM.
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Yea I avoid Ti stuff with my SEE friend. Because I can tell he starts zoning out lol
Yeah, ESEs are lovely ppl, but they often make me loose my temper really quick, and then I have regrets over this.
The way they use Fe and Si can be invasive…it can goes from forcing you to receive love and attentions (kisses, cuddles, food), forcing you to receive care on health matters, (like forcing a spoon in your mouth or something like that), to repeat over and over the same word or making you repeat yourself.
Not just that, they also want you to take care of them, and they often feel with rights over people and things.
One have to get frustrated, irritated or raise one's voice to stop them doing their own way with you. Then they go with condemnation (of you) trying to make you feel bad for your behavior.
On the other hand, I know that they are good ppl and have good intentions.
Last edited by Hope; 07-11-2017 at 07:14 PM.
LIIs freakin love and need people taking care of them and yearn for someone who will be totally attentive of their desires and needs (and commands, lol ).
My best friend is LII, I used to be her caregiver in turn and she was utterly heart broken when she noticed (it took very long time until she noticed because she's kind of egoic...-me,my job, my family, my money, my...wait...something is missing, where is the idiot who used to be so attentive, I mean, my friend?-) that I was "cheating/leaving her" (her words) for another childlike (my dual). She pretty much still resentful till today.
I tried to explain that ppl fall in love and that friends are nice ppl who still there but not so there but she refused to listen (I mean, her heart refused to listen). TnT
I think that ESEs have the exact program to fulfill the self centered needs of LIIs. ESEs can be pretty overwhelming for others but I bet its exactly what LIIs need.
Last edited by Hope; 07-11-2017 at 07:12 PM.
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@Slugabed, your post sheds some light on a possible reason why an LII that I work with had his ESE dual pick up and leave him. I can definitely see him as being self-centered. My LII sister certainly is.LIIs freakin love and need people taking care of them and yearn for someone who will be totally attentive of their desires and needs (and commands, lol ).
My best friend is LII, I used to be her caregiver in turn and she was utterly heart broken when she noticed (it took very long time until she noticed because she's kind of egoic...-me,my job, my family, my money, my...wait...something is missing, where is the idiot who used to be so attentive, I mean, my friend?-) that I was "cheating/leaving her" (her words) for another childlike (my dual). She pretty much still resentful till today.
I tried to explain that ppl fall in love and that friends are nice ppl who still there but not so there but she refused to listen (I mean, her heart refused to listen). TnT
I think that ESEs have the exact program to fulfill the self centered needs of LIIs. ESEs can be pretty overwhelming for others but I bet its exactly what LIIs need.
Very insightful. Thanks.
The two partners usually have very different values since one is input oriented and the other output; therefore, they'll never really see eye to eye on priorities, processes or success measurements. The key disconnect is that the supervisor seems to devalue the approach or conduct of the other. I had my supervisor-type leave my organization because he said that I restricted his so-called "style". I don't think the supervisee values what the supervisor says anymore than anyone else who may have advice or a particular skill, or be successful at doing something. I think the problem is the blindness of the supervisor - as you say: ".....unable to get outside of their own thinking......" I think they may seem like they're talking "ahead" because they're often trying to change your approach or objective, sometimes by trying to talk over you or belittle.....
I think relationships of benefit are one notch better simply because the benefactor is not usually blind to the other's thinking or tactics even though there's a huge gulf between their fundamental approaches on resolving issues.
a.k.a. I/O
Last edited by Rebelondeck; 07-12-2017 at 03:21 PM.
So much this its not even funny. I go through this on a daily basis with my own ESE roomate. This perfectly sums up how the dynamic ensues. This is the best socionics post I have read in so long. These are my own conclusions as well. Me striking that balance with him has been a prodigious effort that I am sure he isnt even aware I preform.I used to work for an ESE and I would like to starve him from Fe for like weeks at a time only to drop a juicy morsel on him when it really counted. He loved me
Even though they subconsciously bully and consciously seek a reaction every time, they deep down love it when you're mostly buttoned up and then occasionally give them something because it creates context that is constantly out of whack in their day to day lives because of the amount of pressure they exude. its like you bring a degree of order to the chaos and they don't know why exactly but they love it even though it seems like they're getting the opposite of what they want
the trick is to just not take them seriously, which sounds awful but its precisely the source of real hurt feelings because you have to think of their emoting as trivial to some degree in order to not confront them over the emotional pressure they put out, or to ignore it but not ignore it and let it lead to resentment which ultimately results in a negative blow up, whereas if you're just like "this is all kind of trifling" and then kind of "get serious" only when the situation actually merits it they will actually appreciate it because its precisely their own lack of understanding that results in them (seemingly) "being serious" (i.e.: emoting at an 11) all the time which really means none of the time, so for deciding for them when it matters and when its not actually brings much needed meaning and structure to their interactions
the difficulty is this requires a shitload of discipline if you're not LII
I just think of it like "im just going to roll with the punches with this person" and try to be merry
It's so remarkable how inert LIIs must be.
its because [dominant Ti] is predisposed to [dominant Fe] for whom he decides on behalf of what is substantive v what isn't. basically what I have to consciously force myself to do in order to maintain relations with ESE LxI does naturally and with everyone, ergo even with SEE who is not asking and thus irritated by the "free advice" (their program hits PoLR instead of suggestive).. even though on occasion it may be useful information, useful to someone at least
of course, every dyad functions in a similar way, just across rational or perceptual axes, etc. each one offers the exact advice to balance out their dual whether they lead with a rational or irrational function. ESE is irritating because Ti is the most tedious function to manage someone with non stop as far as I can tell. or perhaps its the one most lacking in society at large, or to put it another way, Fe is the most out of control function it seems sometimes
it does seem like there is a kind of societal imbalance at this time manifesting itself in our culture (US)
having an ESE boss was awful because he would request explanations when a simple Te "investigation" would conclusively solve the issue in a quarter of the time, but always wanted some long winded explanation of everything. "its like how many x do we have?" "there's an easy way to find out--lets go check" "no I want everyone to stand here and explain/argue why their hypothesis is correct" me: "wtf I dont have time for this, Ill get you an answer brb"
The Ti begging is first of all symptomatic of a general lack of Ti in the culture. I feel like trump is a manifestation of this in a lot of ways. people will settle for asinine explanations over dispositive facts, precisely because thinking is so lacking in the first place
he knows this instinctively... if you watch him this is his entire schtick--and then he basks like a lizard god in the Fe. this is trickle truth. "explanation" (rationalization) a then b then c then d then e, etc ad infinitum. you string it out long enough you're gone with the goods before anyone realizes and then its too late to stop you--its the "art of the deal".. of course this only works on suckers (a certain voter?), but then the president of the united states starts to attract the attention of a lot of non suckers, as we're seeing play out in real time [1]
[1] the brilliance of the Russian strategy was to "get in front" of this process and use it to their advantage (it really is yesinin's dominant intuition of time)
Last edited by Bertrand; 07-12-2017 at 10:06 PM.
If someone is long term in the supervisee position would they start to think they are becoming a worse person than they were before that relationship begun?
Whereas the supervisor would now think they are a better person than before?
Let me phrase the question a different way-
Would the supervisee in a supervision relationship end up thinking they have not 'succeeded in life', and supervisor hasn't aided them in a needed way, nor stood up for them and perhaps self esteem lowers.
Whereas for the supervisor they likely 'succeed in life' as supervisee assisted and stood up for them which might increase self esteem for the supervisor until the time comes where supervisor may realise they were not as 'great' as they thought in this relationship?
Last edited by Hays; 07-13-2017 at 12:52 AM.
I feel like the supervisee learns from supervision and as long as they're able to get away on occasion and consolidate the acumulated information they come out feeling like a better person. people act like supervision is bad, but it exists for a reason, and learning is good and builds self esteem. even though supervisor can critique you its as negative as your response is. so i would say a weak person would come out feeling like shit, but it would be mostly based on their own inability to learn and the subconscious toll that takes. I know I loved my supervisor and thought they did me a service like none other
i feel like, if anything, the supervisor ends up looking back thinking "i'm kind of a shit person--i was too hard on them--did not recognize their strengths"
My father, ex-wife, and son are all SLI's and my Supervisors, and yes, to a great extent, none of them "hear" me when I say something.Do you think one of the main issues with supervision is that the supervisee does not feel "heard" or understood properly.
I tend to look back on my conversations with ISTps and think: "ohhh...that is what they meant?".
I assumed it was something else completely than what was said.
Is the supervisor unable to get outside of their own thinking to understand the supervisee?
However, when I speak to my supervisor I tend to think they are talking "ahead" or me or feel as though I am lagging in the conversation or missing some key details.
Essentially supervision does not feel like a conversation of equals but one that is still rather interesting...
Thoughts?
When I was a boy, my father, who normally ignored me completely, decided we would fly a kite. But first, we would build the kite. I thought, "OK, this could be interesting. I get to work with my Dad for the first time in my life." So he got some Balsa wood sticks, tied them cross-wise, ran a string around them, and started to cover the string with paper. He then got some flour and water, and when I asked him what he was doing, he said he was making glue. I thought, "We have perfectly good glue in this bottle, let's just use it and be done with it and fly the kite", but he wanted to make glue. The making of the kite was more important to him than flying it together. That was probably the high point in our relationship.
The other time we did something together was when he brought home a baseball and some gloves, and we spent some very awkward minutes throwing the ball back and forth in our front yard, and I thought, "Why is he doing this?" And that was about the extent of our interpersonal interactions.
My ex-wife is a Te-subtype and is more like an ILI Mirror than an SLI Supervisor, and our relationship doesn't feel like the descriptions of Supervision that I have read, but the times that I recommended spending money on slightly risky investments resulted in her threatening to leave me if I did that. She simply could not hear my reasons for the investments. I had to enlist my father to state that the investments could pay off. Him, she listened to.
My SLI son sometimes talks to me like I'm an idiot who can't see what's right in front of him, which is a pain in the ass, because his concerns, which are often the source of these convos, are not really well-grounded, IMO. Likewise, he thinks my plans are ill-advised and poorly thought-out. I have to explain to him several times why things will work out. It is as if he can't hear my reasons. I find we work together best by not being in the same room, which was exactly what worked best when working with my ex and my father. I will say that the work that SLI's do is always impressive, and they generally have a very practical and straight-forward way of thinking, but their approach is very different from mine, and their concerns are completely different.
Even though we've been divorced for a couple of years (she moved out, then I divorced her), my SLI Supervisor ex-wife still comes over to throw out her garbage. I have no idea why my garbage cans are more suitable for this task than hers, but that's what she does.
One day, I was feeling sentimental (but not stupid) and I told her I was glad I had married her and I thought we had made a good team for raising our son and making money, and in a rare display of enthusiasm, she agreed and said I had been very faithful.
Maybe her cat isn't a perfect replacement for me, but it's what she'll have to settle for.
I feel like SLI sees LIE overemphasizing "vision" and "leadership" and sees LIE as implicitly thinking people are incapable of managing themselves while at the same time being totally incapable of caring for himself (Si) and that is the basis for their supervisory relation... I think all supervision entails a clearly visible hypocrisy or self negating tendency that is laid bare before the supervisor and leaves the supervisee very vulnerable to criticism along those lines...
My best friend is IEE and I don't feel unheard by her. I don't know if her being IEE and also the kind of person who goes out of their way to make sure people feel heard when it's important would be enough to offset this theory. Sometimes I think she doesn't get what I'm saying, but not anymore than I do with the average person. The Ne related criticisms she has are presented lightly and kindly and I don't take them to heart or feel like she sees me in a worse light - I just think we have different approaches (which is her way of delivering them). I think our relationship revolves around Fi, Te from her, and Si from me - it's not so bad. But I'm not sure it's all that transformative either. Maybe id be less open minded if I hadn't known her since I was 12, impossible to say.
i feel like the deal with supervisors is not that they dont hear you, but hear you better than you hear yourself. in a certain sense they view you from a point of objectivity you lack. the relation is defined almost precisely by them having the superior vantage point on your particular problems (which stem from own inability to see them in the light that could resolve them)
i feel like most supervisors are benevolent because they don't feel attacked and thus the need to retaliate (which is what conflict is, where the pain is mutual hence escalating)... rather they sincerely want to help but at the same time can become exhausted if its the same shit time after time. good supervisors will communicate in such a way that is productive, however, so they bear as much responsibility for the outcome (in the case of things senselessly repeating themselves, assuming the 'visee isn't totally useless)...
it probably depends on the health levels of the supervision pair in question, rather than a direct result of the intertype relationship itself.
supervisors cover your blind-spot in your "language", so it doesn't make sense for them to not be able to get on your level, especially in the case of IEE/ESI and ILE/LSI relations of supervision. the Ne-lead is capable of entertaining multiple perspectives, so they quickly grasp why the Se-creative may feel/think the way they do, but maybe they realize that it's not the right time/place/delivery, so they swoop in outta nowhere (in true Ne-lead fashion) and provide an alternative perspective, specifically in scenarios where the Se-creative is being ganged up on since it's in a Ne-lead's nature to retain balance in the "integrity of the external situation" (i.e. taking on/defending the perspective of those being treated unfairly) but the respect needs to go both ways for it to go anywhere. the Se-creative may endear themselves to the Ne-lead by doing what the Ne-lead can't, which is sticking to their guns in a debate (or what have you) even if the whole world is against them, which would be what prompts the Ne-lead to sweep in and "defend" the Se-creative.
it needs to come full circle, otherwise it doesn't go anywhere, but it can go sour when this happens, which would be equivalent to a PoLR hit:
(below are my ILE ex's words, not mine, which are surprisingly fitting to the topic at hand)
The goal in trying to illicit some aggression and contention in that person is to force them to establish themselves on the psychological ground I've cleared for them. My innate self-loathing for past failures will always make me hate that weakness in others, though I temper that dislike with a genuine will for them to do better. Though, when they resist that and try to stubbornly present that weakness as a virtue or as an excuse to not face the daunting task of change I get very annoyed. I never swing for real when I goad someone like that. It's more like pawing at them to see if they can at least play at fighting.
All these things bug me about ESEs as well. I live with one and everything you say is accurate.Yeah, ESEs are lovely ppl, but they often make me loose my temper really quick, and then I have regrets over this.
The way they use Fe and Si can be invasive…it can goes from forcing you to receive love and attentions (kisses, cuddles, food), forcing you to receive care on health matters, (like forcing a spoon in your mouth or something like that), to repeat over and over the same word or making you repeat yourself.
Not just that, they also want you to take care of them, and they often feel with rights over people and things.
One have to get frustrated, irritated or raise one's voice to stop them doing their own way with you. Then they go with condemnation (of you) trying to make you feel bad for your behavior.
On the other hand, I know that they are good ppl and have good intentions.
From an abstract point of view the way supervision often creates problems is that supervisor communiction(base function is supervisee vulnerable function) is PoLR hits to the supervisee.Do you think one of the main issues with supervision is that the supervisee does not feel "heard" or understood properly.
I tend to look back on my conversations with ISTps and think: "ohhh...that is what they meant?".
I assumed it was something else completely than what was said.
Is the supervisor unable to get outside of their own thinking to understand the supervisee?
However, when I speak to my supervisor I tend to think they are talking "ahead" or me or feel as though I am lagging in the conversation or missing some key details.
Essentially supervision does not feel like a conversation of equals but one that is still rather interesting...
Thoughts?
The way you've described it is exactly how the information dynamics occur with on each other.
The supervisor thinks the supervise is not moving fast enough in the direction of the supervisor's base function, the difficulty for the supervisee is they cannot move quickly in the area of the supervisor's base function.
Supervision is in a class of inter-type relations that are considered asymmetric(benefit being another), these are unequal relations that only works one way with the supervisor having the superior position, once the supervisee seeks a equal position, conflict inevitably arises.
Supervision and benefit are "special" relations for investigation in socionic as they characterizes similar cognitive styles (supervision ring), social progress, and compatible cognitive styles(benefit ring).
I think Te types tend to reframe my feelings as an action (once I was with a SLI friend and this guy was trying to enter his building, and he shut the door on this guy. Later he felt bad about it, so I said, "that guy looked guilty," and he paused and said, "you mean he looked like he was trying to do something he shouldn't be doing." I actually couldn't put two and two together about what the guy was doing, I just knew immediately that he was in an uneasy mood). Maybe a more pertinent example is, once I told an LSE friend that I dislike speaking to my mother because she bulldozes over me, and she said something to the effect, "but she has no leverage to affect your behavior," but the truth is that it's really difficult to recover emotionally from the shakeup.
Now I know why every single conversation I have with my mother ends in a furious argument, and I can hardly stand spending a moment with her.
Socionics FTW.
No, seriously. The way OP in particular described the supervisor-supervisee relationship makes an awful lot of sense if I reflect on my own life. My mother (SEI) to this day never listens to me, will constantly talk over me and is ever offering unsolicited, unwelcome advice. She is invasive and insensitive when we are together, simply does not rate my ability to achieve and her biting criticisms consumed what little self-esteem I had for many years. I find the joyous affection she shows towards my younger brother, a jarring contrast, extremely painful to witness. Her attitude has negatively impacted my view of women in general, and it still affects me in some other ways as well.
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