Alt-left v.s. Alt-Right

[Hitta]

Trump said the first completely rational thing of his entire presidency and somehow, it's the most controversial thing he's said. It is pretty obvious the point he was trying to make, but somehow, they twisted it into him trying to make a statement in support of racism or white nationalism.

The US right now is the most divided it’s probably been since the civil war. Every single event that occurs is perpetuating that divide. On one side of the equation you have alt-right white pride, race hating people that are attempting to bring back the days of white superiority and try to remove any power that minorities races have accumulated in society. On the other side, you have the anti-fascist alt-left movement that attempt to resist any type of authority that often do not care about the collateral damage that occurs due to their protests (which can become very violent).

The media does their best to attempt to show that the left is this very peaceful protesting group of humanitarians that do no harm and are only there because they want to spread love and peace. I literally saw Van Jones cry on CNN yesterday talking about how hurt he was. The whole thing is just bullshit theatricality. In truth, the left is often just as violent as the right-wing extremists. Often at these rallies, both sides are involved in altercations with each other. Just a few months ago, there was like 10 cops that were killed in the Baton Rouge area. Not one time in that incident did the media ever talk about extreme leftist politics or how extreme political opinions led to that occurring. It was simply just an unfortunate thing that occurred due to tensions.

The “alt-left” viewpoints are probably a bit more relatable to me than the alt-rights, as I simply do not understand the racist, white nationalist impulse at all… whereas I may see why some group may feel slighted by society and feel anger towards the system and want to lash out.

The point I’m trying to make though isn’t which side you actually agree or disagree with, it’s to point out that both sides kind of perpetuate the other. At this rate, we’re just going to become more and more chaotic until we are all attempting to kill each other. With each event, we’re all being pulled to the poles. I think we are literally on the verge of another civil war or political conflict. And it is because both sides believe they are completely right and just, and as a result cannot accept the other’s sides right to freely exist. A couple of racists on a corner are just a couple of dumb racists on a corner. Nobody cares about them, they are in the minority. The moment a group arises to counter them though and the altercation turns bloody, then people are forced to choose sides. Suddenly the racists have people on their side too that normally wouldn’t have been there. The alt left is literally recruiting for the alt right, and the alt right is recruiting for the alt left… and before you know it the whole US is going to be bloody.

[squark]

Trump said the first completely rational thing of his entire presidency and somehow, it's the most controversial thing he's said. It is pretty obvious the point he was trying to make, but somehow, they twisted it into him trying to make a statement in support of racism or white nationalism.

Yeah, I first heard about his comment when a 14 year old kid told me, "Trump actually said something non-retarded. It's the first thing he's said that I agree with, and everyone is mad about it" So I asked him what Trump said, and yeah, I agree too. From what I gather, a group was protesting the removal of a statue of General Lee, counter-protesters came in. The cops who were supposed to be protecting the non-removal people (who had a permit to protest,) stepped back and let the counter-protesters start beating on the neo-nazis of the group with clubs and such, which escalated things, and one dude retaliated by driving his car into the crowd of counter-protesters.

So, if the cops had done their job it wouldn't have escalated. If the counter-protesters hadn't acted with violence the protesters wouldn't have retaliated. If the protesters hadn't been chanting racist things the counter-protesters wouldn't have reacted with violence. It's all dumb, and yes absolutely both sides were at fault. Why the idea that both sides were at fault is somehow controversial is beyond me. . . You can't beat on people with clubs and claim you're all peace and love and blameless.

[Pookie]

The harder you push a pendulum one way the harder it swings back another. These things change slowly, not fast. All you can do is not tolerate bullshit around you, and realize the blame game is the ego desired result. If someone else is to blame you don't have to monitor yourself, and when people do it in mass numbers you get situations like this. Don't play the blame game. Be an adult.

[Skepsis]

The violent antifas and fascists are dogmatists who will not listen to reason. I agree with Trump's most recent statement, that there are violent radicals within both wings of the two major parties. They are a large cause of the polarization and division.

[xerx]

Instead of tearing down Robert Lee, why not erect an even bigger statue of a defiant freed slave standing next to / on top of him? Both would technically qualify as "heritage" and would fuck with the Confederate defenders even more.

[Pookie]

Instead of tearing down Robert Lee, why not erect an even bigger statue of a defiant freed slave standing next to / on top of him? Both would technically qualify as "heritage" and would fuck with the Confederate defenders even more.

How would you denote him as a free slave, and not just enslaved?

[xerx]

How would you denote him as a free slave, and not just enslaved?

I dunno, make him 20 times bigger and have him hold up a copy of the emancipation proclamation? Have him taking a dump on Robert E. Lee?

[Suz]

Instead of tearing down Robert Lee, why not erect an even bigger statue of a defiant freed slave standing next to / on top of him? Both would technically qualify as "heritage" and would fuck with the Confederate defenders even more.

I love this idea!

[Tonatiuh]

I consider both so called alternative movements just inherently more capable of coherent thought. Weird why that should be an alternative, and as to what.

[Spermatozoa]

Trump said the first completely rational thing of his entire presidency and somehow, it's the most controversial thing he's said. It is pretty obvious the point he was trying to make, but somehow, they twisted it into him trying to make a statement in support of racism or white nationalism.

The media is determined to remove Trump from office. In order to do so, they have created two lines of attack.

1. Trump is a pawn of Russia.
2. Trump is a racist/fascist.

Every event is reported with the aim of supporting these premises, so uncomfortable facts (such as left-wing violence) will be ignored.

The US right now is the most divided it’s probably been since the civil war. Every single event that occurs is perpetuating that divide. On one side of the equation you have alt-right white pride, race hating people that are attempting to bring back the days of white superiority and try to remove any power that minorities races have accumulated in society. On the other side, you have the anti-fascist alt-left movement that attempt to resist any type of authority that often do not care about the collateral damage that occurs due to their protests (which can become very violent).

The media does their best to attempt to show that the left is this very peaceful protesting group of humanitarians that do no harm and are only there because they want to spread love and peace. I literally saw Van Jones cry on CNN yesterday talking about how hurt he was. The whole thing is just bullshit theatricality. In truth, the left is often just as violent as the right-wing extremists. Often at these rallies, both sides are involved in altercations with each other. Just a few months ago, there was like 10 cops that were killed in the Baton Rouge area. Not one time in that incident did the media ever talk about extreme leftist politics or how extreme political opinions led to that occurring. It was simply just an unfortunate thing that occurred due to tensions.

In his press conference on Tuesday, Trump quite rightly pointed out that the nationalists had been given a permit to stage their protest. Local police in Charlottesville had prepared for a controlled demonstration around the statue of Lee.

What the media didn't tell you was that Antifa conspired with local government to get that permit revoked. Official knew well that this would make it impossible to separate the nationalists from left-wing agitators. Any violence that resulted, would, of course, be blamed on the nationalists - giving Antifa a free reign to riot and destroy property. Trump had the guts to point out, quite correctly, that the left actually wanted violence in Charlottesville, so have no moral high ground to pontificate on. Again, Democrat local body politicians engineered events to ensure conflict would arise, knowing their friends in the media would work tirelessly to connect it to racism and Trump.

What you witnessed was an incredibly cynical example of "community organizing". Charlottesville shows us that the Democrat Party and the mainstream media now actively work with Antifa, who are domestic terrorists, to advance the political objectives they have in common. This ought to be a BIG story. Now you know why it isn't.

The “alt-left” viewpoints are probably a bit more relatable to me than the alt-rights, as I simply do not understand the racist, white nationalist impulse at all… whereas I may see why some group may feel slighted by society and feel anger towards the system and want to lash out.

I had a brief back-and-forth about this in the chatbox a few days ago.

Whatever your political views, the Confederacy is still a part of U.S. history and integral to the culture of the Southern states. Robert E. Lee was also a man of exceptional stature and was widely respected by people on both sides of the Civil War - it is ridiculous to compare him to dictators like ****** or Stalin.

The people who turned up to protest the statue's removal recognise this. They feel that "racism" is being used as an excuse by left-wing activists to attack their identity with covert support from the state. Bear in mind that the Civil War ended over 150 years ago. I think it's fair to say that slavery wasn't the main motive for the counter-protests in Charlottesville. They were about politics.

[Singu]

Trump says both sides are to blame for inciting violence, yet he is inciting violence on North Korea.

I'm not a fan of these "both sides are to blame!" arguments, they're usually used to either muddle the issue or attempt to defend the indefensible by also laying the blame on the other. It ignores the real issue and it resolves nothing.

The "both sides are to blame" argument is also tougher and more unfair for the minority than for the majority. It's easy for the majority to stand back from afar and say that both are to blame since they're not the real target, but what if you're the minority who is being harassed and attacked by the racists? Can you just be chill and say that you're all for love and peace, who will never retaliate even in self-defense? Easy for the majority to say, difficult for minorities who are the real targets of those far-right racists.

This "both sides are to blame" argument ignores the fact that had there not been these racists, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. The methods of these anti-racist folks (whom are not necessarily only leftists, rightists can also be anti-racism, sexism etc.) were wrong, yes, but they were only attempting to defend from the usually violent far-right folks. But even then, can that somehow justify the murder by running over a person?

[Spermatozoa]

Perhaps I should explain a bit more about the modern left and what drives them. If you understand their ideology, you will understand what has happened since Trump was elected a lot better.

The first and most important value of the left is equality. By that I mean "nobody is better than anyone else". However the leftist notes that despite valiant advances by his comrades marching through the institutions, there is as much inequality in society as before. As such, he concludes that success itself is the problem. It is not only unfair that some people may have more wealth than others - it is also unfair that they may be more intelligent, or more attractive than others.

So in the name of fairness, the left's second value, they have the created the most authoritarian worldview possible. Everything you have belongs to the angry mob, there is no such thing as private property. I am not just talking about your money, your home or your guns. You have no right to your body or identity, either.

Remember that the left believes all inequalities in society to be the result of oppression, so any other explanation for why some people may end up with more of X than others is morally unacceptable to them. The mob might decide on an old-fashioned form of redistribution. I can imagine entitled, Ivy League-educated black men raping white women might be considered justice for slavery - after all, the chronically oppressed will say, "you owe us, so put out, bitch".

Their inferiority complex is embarrassingly clear.

This is where the crimes of racism, sexism, ableism, and whatever other ism, which in some countries have been codified into law, have come from. The intention is to shame people away from acknowledging the truth, which is that people are not equal, and unequal outcomes in life are not usually due to discrimination.

In the West, White people are identified as the perpetually sinful. We are guilty of being too numerous, too attractive and too successful in the eyes of the "oppressed". If you are White, simply by being born you have already committed a crime. Young White children are now told that merely by their presence, they help perpetrate inequality in society. With that in mind, is it really so surprising that many teenagers have image and identity issues? Young minds are a prime target for messages like this. Marxists want to create a fair world, and this sounds wonderful - right up until this moment you realise how they will go about doing it. In the name of inclusion and tolerance, the left always insists that everyone must look, act and think the same way. Or else.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a world where people were unequal, but free.

[Hitta]

One of the things that most people don't realize about Robert E Lee is that he was against slavery.

[squark]

One of the things that most people don't realize about Robert E Lee is that he was against slavery.

hmm? Searching for information on this I came across this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/ Can't say I'm knowledgeable on the subject or anything (or that it's an unbiased article) but it raises some points and quotes that suggest he was at least racist, and was a slaveowner himself.

[Computer Loser]

Yup, more dishonesty from the media/left to hurt Trump's image. They're reframing/rebranding Trump as a racist:

"The president waited TWO DAYS to DENOUNCE RACISM."

Lol. So ridiculous.

1. First of all, he addressed it on 4 separate occasions.

2. White supremacy isn't the only type of bigotry, but the media pretends that it is. There were MULTIPLE other hate groups; there were not only peaceful counter-protesters (the only type the media showed), but there were also militant/violent protesters as well AKA Black Lives Matter and Antifa.

The FOCUS should be on the HATE GROUP(S) NOT the president.

---

As far as North Korea, he's going to get criticized either way. If he's proactive and using tough language he's automatically inciting violence. If he does nothing, he doesn't care.

It's a shame during a time of eminent war/danger democrats and republicans can't even come together, instead it's just non-stop criticism.

If we can't unite and get our act together, that's going to make us look even worse and embolden other nations to take advantage.

This division is ridiculous, and I mentioned it earlier shortly after Trump got elected that it's counter-productive and causing more harm than good.

[Pallas]

I can agree with the sentiment of the first post, about both groups being extreme, but the world is not going to end. Yeah, right now is a time with a lot of upheaval, and that can be scary if you don't know what that looks like, especially if you're at the point where the only thing you have to do is watch politics and world events so you don't have anything else that's a constant for you personally. If you have any idea how these things tend to go, it's just exciting though, not scary.

"'Both sides are dumb' is dumb!" is dumb too too. When both sides are dumb, what's making them dumb is nothing to do with "one is too extreme this way, and the other is too extreme that way!" It tends to be something they both have in common. Like people say "the far right and the far left look similar!" Well, duh, communism and fascism were both mid-20th-century utopian movements. The alt-right and alt-left also have more in common than not, and don't really have much in common with the "far right" and "far left". They're like all the Protestant denominations that are more similar to one another than Judaism or even Catholicism, yet can't get along because that one difference is so maginified, like a musical wolftone. Then it's like looking at a gestalt, and you can't even see all the things that are the same anymore because they're backgrounded.

Making an ideology is a process, and following an ideology is a process. If you just think about it logically, like "things are X or not X" you get blinded to that. The logical part is really important since there's just nothing without that, but if it's not self-aware, it becomes detached from anything that actually exists. It's like when you look at a picture, you see what it represents, but it's still just a picture, and you shouldn't forget that. Forgetting that reminds me of when I was watching this video where some Hindus were worshipping idols, and some guru said "You can spend your whole life looking at the statue and never see what it's pointing at". That's the essence of idolatry if there ever were a way to summarize it. Dogmatism is idolatry, and needs to be called out. But once it's called out, it's dumb to just be like "You guys are stupid, so I'm not listening to any of your arguments, and will just sit right here. NA NA NA I can't hear you and I won't move." You still need the pointer in order to find what it's pointing at. You just can't substitute it.

[Kim]

Did you see the march? With torches, anti-semitic chants and nazi salutes? The antifa might be violent, but it's a response to violence started by fascists, racist, and nazis.

[Hitta]

Did you see the march? With torches, anti-semitic chants and nazi salutes? The antifa might be violent, but it's a response to violence started by fascists, racist, and nazis.

Lol, you basically have two sides that masturbate to the other side. Racist, white nationalists give spoiled antifa brats something to bitch about. Spoiled antifa brats give white nationalists something to unify against. Racists with their "torches, anti-semitic chants, and nazi salutes" certainly do suck. If you think that beating these racist people with clubs and stuff is going to somehow make things better you don't understand human nature at all.

I've been convinced that everything has been on the brink of going batshit crazy for a long time... but it sure is kinda absurd to watch it all play out. It's going to keep going to keep ramping up with one side getting pissed at the other side until everyone is on sides and the whole nation is at war with each other. If its not racists, then there's younger less vicious sibling "America first" ideologues. If it's not the spoiled antifa group then it's their younger sibling the "humanitarian globalist liberal protectors of all". Shit's going to get real... really fast, all because people are incapable of accepting that there are people out there that have opinions that differ from their own. I heard some guy the other day suggest that they should change the first amendment to include banning nazi, racist language. Free speech is supposed to be free speech. Racists have a right to organize. Antifa have a right to organize. Neither have a right to violence.

[Rebelondeck]

There are extremists on both sides that are driven by unfounded beliefs. However, one side tends to chain themselves to trees, lie in front of vehicles or occupy buildings while the other side would prefer to subjugate their opponents. Trump is a subjugator and only wants to win; he puts on shows for his supporters to keep them following him but he's really apolitical and doesn't care for anybody or anything except his ratings and self-image. One commentator made an excellent point: "America really needed Trump to show them how fragile democracy can be." The old saying applies: opposing Trump is like wrestling with a pig, everybody gets dirty and the pig loves it.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Kim]

Lol, you basically have two sides that masturbate to the other side. Racist, white nationalists give spoiled antifa brats something to bitch about. Spoiled antifa brats give white nationalists something to unify against. Racists with their "torches, anti-semitic chants, and nazi salutes" certainly do suck. If you think that beating these racist people with clubs and stuff is going to somehow make things better you don't understand human nature at all.

I've been convinced that everything has been on the brink of going batshit crazy for a long time... but it sure is kinda absurd to watch it all play out. It's going to keep going to keep ramping up with one side getting pissed at the other side until everyone is on sides and the whole nation is at war with each other. If its not racists, then there's younger less vicious sibling "America first" ideologues. If it's not the spoiled antifa group then it's their younger sibling the "humanitarian globalist liberal protectors of all". Shit's going to get real... really fast, all because people are incapable of accepting that there are people out there that have opinions that differ from their own. I heard some guy the other day suggest that they should change the first amendment to include banning nazi, racist language. Free speech is supposed to be free speech. Racists have a right to organize. Antifa have a right to organize. Neither have a right to violence.

"Spoiled antifa group"? What's so spoiled about them?

I find grown white men marching and whining about Jews and non-White people and celebrating a violent history they know nothing about far more spoiled than people who oppose white supremacy, however misguided their methods.

[Kim]

I also find it curious that you deny a black man his emotional reaction to people who march in favor of oppressing him. It's fine to have an opinion, but to mock people for feeling hurt and scared because they are being openly hated reeks of privilege.

[Hitta]

I call it spoiled, because I think it is rooted in naivete' in that fighting fire with fire just causes more fire.

TBH the racist/white supremacist reputation is lacking stature in comparison to the antifa movement.
The antifa movement is far more supported by the media and is never painted in a negative light, whereas most "respectable" media outlets will condemn the far right as being insane. I think most of the population of the US thinks the racists/white supremacist are insane, that includes the more "sensible" alt-right who believes in the America First ideology. American's hatred of the far right is covered... the far left though isn't being held accountable to it's actions. From my perspective, both of them are Nazi's. They are both equally trying to tell people what to think, how to feel, what is good, what is wrong... and when people disagree with them they turn violent.

For example, and not saying I agree with this.. but say I made the argument that black people aren't mistreated by the cops and that the apparent appearance of it is just due to black people committing more crime. If a person disagrees with this sentiment.... I expect a logical argument to be made back to me critiquing my point... highlighting studies that have been conducted on the matter. Hitting me over the head with a mallet does very little to justify a point. It would only piss me off and make me want to hit them over the head with a mallet as well. What is going on right now is incredibly dangerous and I think there's a good chance that civil conflict is coming to America. The polarization is only building. The anti-fascists are just fascists that don't want to believe that they are. Alt right/Alt-Left are just two sides of the same coin.

[Kim]

I call it spoiled, because I think it is rooted in naivete' in that fighting fire with fire just causes more fire. TBH the racist/white supremacist impulse is rather small and lacking stature in comparison to the antifa movement.

The antifa movement is far more supported by the media and is never painted in a negative light, whereas most "respectable" media outlets will condemn the far right as being insane. I think most of the population of the US thinks the racists/white supremacist are insane, that includes the more "sensible" alt-right who believes in the America First ideology. American's hatred of the far right is covered... the far left though isn't being held accountable to it's actions. From my perspective, both of them are Nazi's. They are both equally trying to tell people what to think, how to feel, what is good, what is wrong... and when people disagree with them they turn violent.

For example, and not saying I agree with this.. but say I made the argument that black people aren't mistreated by the cops and that the apparent appearance of it is just due to black people committing more crime. If a person disagrees with this sentiment.... I expect a logical argument to be made back to me critiquing my point... highlighting studies that have been conducted on the matter. Hitting me over the head with a mallet does very little to justify a point. It would only piss me off and make me want to hit them over the head with a mallet as well. What is going on right now is incredibly dangerous and I think there's a good chance that civil conflict is coming to America. The polarization is only building. The anti-fascists are just fascists that don't want to believe that they are. Alt right/Alt-Left are just two sides of the same coin.

I disagree. The antifa in itself is not violent, but it will fight fascism and racism with whatever means necessary and some members resort to violence. The conflict starts with the hate coming from nazis and racists. Antifa only reacts and rightly so. I spent a lot of time with antifa members and most of them are not violent.

The violence starts with the people marching with torches.

But I am also German and have no patience for nazi shit. Freedom of speech for me ends where it interferes with other people's safety. Racist and anti-Semitic chanting is in itself violent.

[Kim]

Quick sidenote re divided country: I am tired of all the "unify the country" talk. Who wants to be unified with white supremacists?

[Singu]

Well hate speech can evolve into incitement to genocide, and that is against the international law and I believe that's not protected under free speech even in the US. Genocide may be unlikely in the US, but there can easily be incitement of random violence against minorities, which I believe is already happening. If you just ignore it then it will fester and there will be more and more violence. The far-right racists aren't reacting to violence, they are already violent and they will use violence if they were allowed to do so. If you ignore them then they will become even more violent. So I don't think that you can just sit back and look at the thing and say that they're both violent so they're both wrong. You'd have to be constantly guarded against racism and nationalism because it can easily lead to tragedy.

[xerx]

Swap NeoNazis with ISIS sympathisers** and see how many people choose to blame both sides.


** ISIS is credibly more peaceful than the Nazis. ISIS at least gives you the option to convert.

[Aylen]

The violent antifas and fascists are dogmatists who will not listen to reason. I agree with Trump's most recent statement, that there are violent radicals within both wings of the two major parties. They are a large cause of the polarization and division.

[Singu]

[purplehearts]

What you aren't mentioning is that this "far right white nationalist movement", the actual extent of it is very greatly exaggerated... hardly anyone actually supports them on the right - the right wants nothing but to disassociate themselves from them. But the political opposition will not allow that to happen... meanwhile antifa is actually receiving mainstream support, you can see that from people in this very thread such as Kim and Singu.
The actual extent of the two problems are just not proportionate and exaggerated to sound as if they are.
So the real problem we have - the much larger problem with more weight behind it - is with these radical marxist groups. They are much larger and they are taking major axe swings at the foundations of this country at multiple levels - economic, social, moral, and so on.

The nazis and white power people we're talking about in that protest were a specific group that literally drove from all over the country to collect at that rally and there were only a little over a hundred of them in that crowd. Everyone denounces them.
20 people of the most radical, batshit place in society will dress up in a KKK outfit and march around like they're batshit, then I have to hear about the entire "alt right" movement is made up of them.
You literally are talking about maybe .2 percent of the conservative population or somewhere small like that.

If you disagree, try to find me one person who will come out and support neo nazism and white nationalism in this thread. Then look again in this very thread and you will find people supporting ANTIFA.

[Number 9 large]

What you aren't mentioning is that this "far right white nationalist movement", the actual extent of it is very greatly exaggerated... hardly anyone actually supports them on the right - the right wants nothing but to disassociate themselves from them. But the political opposition will not allow that to happen... meanwhile antifa is actually receiving mainstream support, you can see that from people in this very thread such as Kim. The problem is much more widespread - other marxist organizations such as BLM come to mind.
The actual extent of the two problems are just not proportionate and exaggerated to sound as if they are.
So the real problem we have - the much larger problem with more weight behind it - is with these radical marxist groups. They are much larger and they are taking major axe swings at the foundations of this country at multiple levels - economic, social, moral, and so on. Our social and economic systems are just not going to maintain themselves if this kind of thing continues and grows.

The nazis and white power people we're talking about in that protest were a specific group that literally drove from all over the country to collect at that rally and there were only a little over a hundred of them in that crowd. Literally no mainstream person I know of supports them. Everyone denounces them.
It's like 20 people of the most radical, batshit place in society will dress up in a KKK outfit and march around like they're batshit, then I have to hear about the entire "alt right" movement is made up of an extreme minority of batshit crazy people.
You literally are talking about maybe .2 percent of the conservative population or somewhere small like that when you are talking neo nazis and KKK members and so on.

If you disagree, try to find me one person who will come out and support neo nazism and white nationalism in this thread. Then look again in this very thread and you will find people supporting ANTIFA.

I dont think the sample of this forum is anything close to representative for the general population in america... but yea, i think your point still stands

[Grendel]

This argument is asinine. There are no "both sides," there is the Alt-Right, which continues to swell in power and subvert the cultural landscape via methods the establishment can't reliably detect, and there are the complicit majority who either don't know or don't care about the growing threat of Fascism in our lifetimes. At this point, I think it's safe to say that anyone who equates the extreme right and left is probably an Alt-Right collaborator. Antifa's "violence" does not invalidate their concerns any more than crime is validated because it creates the need for law enforcement. Civil rights legislation didn't come because of peaceful protests, it came because the oppressed parties began revolting and actively disrupting the dominant social power structure beyond the degree legislators could ignore.


Legal, peaceful protests are not sufficient to disrupt the strength of the Alt-Right. They have changed the rules of the game, adopted the brute-force strategies used by liberal movements before them. They will not be silenced with anything short of physical force, and if they are not, they will doggedly swallow more and more political power until every aspect of daily life is subject to their demands. The Left is not justifying the Alt-Right's existence by screaming at them; a couple of rabid leftists are destroying public support for the Left by using shitty tactics, bitching at their enemies instead of killing them, and utterly failing to mobilize effective violent revolts among the minority that even tries this.

It isn't wrong to say the Left has had no role in the Alt-Right's formation, but their sin isn't in its present actions, but past ones. You do not create Nazis by calling out actual Nazis as Nazis. You create Nazis when anyone who isn't with you is against you, when you portray parties who simply want to be left alone as Nazis because they're indifferent to the grievances and inequitable outcomes of marginalized groups you care about, therefore they hate these groups. You create Nazis by equating Center-Right politicians - who have never touched white-nationalist rhetoric in their lives - with Nazis because their social policies don't align with your ambitions of a utopian society. You create Nazis by mixing liberal political ideologies with the social zeitgeist, rather than leaving politics to politicians like they belong. You create Nazis by equating any form of nationalism with racism, then stigmatizing this racism to the point of holding witch hunts for anyone who shows what you deem to be a symptom of racism - instead of just keeping the overt, violent racists away from political power and letting that be that.


In a nutshell, you create Fascists - people of an ideology that is so dangerous because it by definition must hold all the power and cannot live and let live - when you refuse to live and let live yourself. When you refuse to allow anyone to stand indifferently on the sidelines and mind his own business. When you spend consecutive decades insisting that anyone who isn't with you is against you, you ensure that in the end, everyone will be against you.

By so rabidly shoving their own ambitions for positive liberties down the throats of a public who could not be more closed to such ideas, not only has the Left destroyed the prospects of these positive liberties, but also invalidated the fundamental negative liberties upon which our democracy is built in the eyes of the public. There are no more Classical Liberals for you to portray as waycists because they're indifferent to progressive social policies; there are only actual racists now, racists with no sense of common decency or regard for standard political protocols.


I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, want nothing more than a return to normalcy. But decades of the most vocal political minorities' actions have destroyed that possibility. If we all realized just how rapidly and covertly the Alt-Right is growing and how unrepresentative the most rabid Leftists are of what remains of the Left, we'd see the danger and quickly mobilize to negate it, but we obviously don't. You cannot coexist with Fascists like you can with any other person or faction. There is no "being left alone" in their world. Not only do they hold the maximum political power inherent to the State, they are under no obligation to refrain from exercising it in any way they wish. In a world with the fascist, you play by their rules, you destroy them, or you die. No petty social issue can command more attention from the dispassionate bystander than the existence of fascists. And the dispassionate bystander has had enough of being disturbed. He can't help us now. The Left killed itself. We'll have to funnel all our strength into hunting down and butchering every murdering fascist before they do the same to us.



I like the principle of the Horseshoe Theory, it just seems like horseshit at first glance because of Occam's Razor. But it makes more sense when you strip away the fraudulent left-right political spectrum outlined by the confounding social situation of American politics, and see political alignment for what it really is: a clear spectrum between stronger government, and weaker government. And it's no coincidence that Fascism and Communism, the lingering ideologies with the strongest central governments, are both favored by poor, disenfranchised populations who fear the influence of a moneyed elite on the fate of themselves and/or their nation and want a Caesarean regime to intervene. I like to see Communism as a flawed attempt at "benevolent" Fascism, in that the State is founded on the intent of serving the population's needs, not instilling a loyalty in the State over all else so that it might save those it finds strongest and most useful.


At this point, I find the Alt-Right so rampant that I'd actually prefer censorship and "benevolent" authoritarianism in defense of the principles of liberal democracy just to see the Alt-Right silenced once and for all. As a hated but perhaps insightful politician once said, Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. If ensuring that the ethno-nationalists hang on trees for the crimes they attempted to commit against the free world means espousing some authoritarian methods ourselves, so be it. The Alt-Right calls for physical removal, we'll physically remove them. Rip free speech right the fuck out of the constitution. We shat on the second amendment several times with gun control laws, we added amendments to free slaves and allow females to vote, we'll survive a bit of outright censorship. America was a lot more authoritarian that ever in its formative years, and freeze peach was protected then. We've modified the Constitution before; there's no reason not to do it again. If we're going to beat the Nazis, we need to be worse.



Sidenote, I wish Hillary had won, if only for the fact that it might've resulted in that nuclear war where we could take Russia with us. They probably seeded this whole shitfest with their psyops. Either way, the America that I loved will be gone and millions of people, including me, are going to die within the next 50 years. At least that way our killers would die in atomic fire too.

[Singu]

Well, it looks like 20-30 students locked arms around the statue, and then 300-400 Neo-Nazis started coming in with torches chanting and started beating up the students. The police weren't there to protect them, and even if there were, they just stood by and they weren't protecting them. There were even militia Neo-Nazis with assault rifles and they were allowed to be there. The counter-protesters were protecting them, and if it weren't for the counter-protesters, they could have been killed.

Then the Neo-Nazi drove a van into the crowd and injured 19 people and killed 1.

I honestly don't see how they are both "the same". It was clearly a terror attack by the Neo-Nazis.

[Spermatozoa]

"Spoiled antifa group"? What's so spoiled about them?

I find grown white men marching and whining about Jews and non-White people and celebrating a violent history they know nothing about far more spoiled than people who oppose white supremacy, however misguided their methods.

Recent polls show that the majority of Americans want Confederate monuments to stay. Are they all white supremacists?

Honestly, I don't care what your intentions are. Destroying monuments to a past civilisation is one of the hallmarks of totalitarianism. Desecration of history shows that you're not comfortable with anyone having an identity different to your own.

The Taliban tried to erase their own country's history, and so did ISIS. If you continue to walk down this road, like them you will create a war.

[squark]

At this point, I find the Alt-Right so rampant that I'd actually prefer censorship and "benevolent" authoritarianism in defense of the principles of liberal democracy just to see the Alt-Right silenced once and for all. As a hated but perhaps insightful politician once said, Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. If ensuring that the ethno-nationalists hang on trees for the crimes they attempted to commit against the free world means espousing some authoritarian methods ourselves, so be it. The Alt-Right calls for physical removal, we'll physically remove them. Rip free speech right the fuck out of the constitution. We shat on the second amendment several times with gun control laws, we added amendments to free slaves and allow females to vote, we'll survive a bit of outright censorship. America was a lot more authoritarian that ever in its formative years, and freeze peach was protected then. We've modified the Constitution before; there's no reason not to do it again. If we're going to beat the Nazis, we need to be worse.

The ignorance of this is astounding if it's not some kind of joke. The only words of any kind of rational thought in that entire paragraph was in the quote "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice." And every other word in it was in direct contradiction of that quote. What exactly do you think liberty is? It's the exact opposite of authoritarianism.

It makes me wonder though, if that wasn't the intention of focusing so heavily on a fringe minority group that has no power whatsoever and most people despise. Make people believe they're in danger of the nazis and watch them hand the last vestiges of their freedom away. . . makes me want to cry at people's stupidity.

[Spermatozoa]

I think one of the main differences between the alt-right and the alt-left is that the alt-right basically just wants to be left alone. They are sick of the political class refusing to stop immigration and the cultural dispossession it is causing, so are resorting to extreme means.

The alt-left (groups like Antifa) believe that that white people in general are a moral evil, something akin to a virus, which must be eradicated from the entire world to end racism. Don't believe me - just ask them.

Most people in the alt-right are smart enough to realise that eradicating the alt-left would not be possible. So again, they just want to create their whites-only country and be left alone. The problem is that the left won't allow them to leave without a fight.

[Pookie]

Only the sith believe in absolutes

[Grendel]

The ignorance of this is astounding if it's not some kind of joke. The only words of any kind of rational thought in that entire paragraph was in the quote "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice." And every other word in it was in direct contradiction of that quote. What exactly do you think liberty is? It's the exact opposite of authoritarianism.

Lol, this rigidity of thinking is laughable. If you're in a maze, the exit you want to reach may be located to your north, but since you are surrounded by walls, you may need to make maneuvers east, west, and even considerably south before you're able to reach your destination to the north. Same principle here. The Fascists may look like shit-flinging ingrate peasants now, but if you look at past history, it's times like these where it only takes one large economic crisis to turn "deranged authoritarian radicals" into savior figures for most of the population. What then? If we wait until the Fascists become legitimately powerful instead of just popular to resist them, it'll be too late, they'll seize power, and anyone who tried to resist and a lot of those who didn't will be gassed as degenerates.


It is not impossible to temporarily curb liberties in order to destroy factions that would only destroy liberties even more. When the general population agreed that fascism was completely unacceptable in any political discourse, we could afford to have free speech and free political associations. If factions that would destroy every liberty we had to speak of run a very real risk of gaining political power because we can't mediate the flow of political thought, it's just a sacrifice of one freedom in order to save every other freedom to curb free speech in order to prevent them from gaining power. The many freedoms we enjoy under a republic outweigh the few freedoms like speech and association that need to be curbed to prevent fascism.


Contradictory? If consistency is a virtue, sure. Inherently wrong? If humans thought purely in boolean, maybe.

Authoritarian? Hell yeah it is. It's outright coercive. But the fact is, all civilization fundamentally depends on some level of coercion to function on the most basic levels. Which would you rather: a country with a few ridiculous authoritarian controls, or a country with a thousand ridiculous authoritarian controls, where the government proudly stomps around like a toddler and gasses anyone that looks at them funny without so much as an attempt to make it look like they had a fair trial by jury?

It makes me wonder though, if that wasn't the intention of focusing so heavily on a fringe minority group that has no power whatsoever and most people despise. Make people believe they're in danger of the nazis and watch them hand the last vestiges of their freedom away. . . makes me want to cry at people's stupidity.

Maybe you're the one who's ignorant of where these people congregate and how they expand their power if you really think they're so weak. In fact your whole worldview is probably shaped by the dying vestiges of the old left-wing - which will be completely extinct in due time - if you really believe the rhetoric that the Alt-Right is still a "fringe minority." Next you'll be saying they're all morbidly obese betamales who wank off to anime or some other ad hominem. This attitude of "m-maybe if I stop giving them attention, they'll go away" is just allowing them to spread, because they couldn't care less if one mongrel stops giving them attention, they'll just find another venue to forcibly shoehorn themselves into and gain supporters. They do not listen to basic ethos, they just keep brute-forcing their way through everything until all resistance is crushed.


I'd bet you fifty bucks their influence will have at LEAST doubled within the next twenty years, but the fact is we don't have 20 years to wait and see what happens. Because if there's even a chance the fascists will have bolstered their influence by then, it may be too late. Fascism is built upon a strong intolerance to any dissent, even the seed of dissent. You can't crush fascism in its adult form, you have to stomp out its seed.



Also, freedom itself as an absolute moral value is a pipe dream, unfit for the real world of politics. Security is a lot more important, and a lot more elusive. When people bring up the freedom-versus-security point they forget that freedom is just a means to the end of security, because it's easier for people to take away your security if they can take away your freedom. You can't even begin to fight for your freedom if you're not secure, because then your basic needs aren't met, and you die like a rat. Liberal democracy just gives security to a greater number of people because there's less of a chance a SWAT team will randomly show up at your door one morning and gas you in the back of a van.

[Spermatozoa]

Lol, this rigidity of thinking is laughable. If you're in a maze, the exit you want to reach may be located to your north, but since you are surrounded by walls, you may need to make maneuvers east, west, and even considerably south before you're able to reach your destination to the north. Same principle here. The Fascists may look like shit-flinging ingrate peasants now, but if you look at past history, it's times like these where it only takes one large economic crisis to turn "deranged authoritarian radicals" into savior figures for most of the population. What then? If we wait until the Fascists become legitimately powerful instead of just popular to resist them, it'll be too late, they'll seize power, and anyone who tried to resist and a lot of those who didn't will be gassed as degenerates.


It is not impossible to temporarily curb liberties in order to destroy factions that would only destroy liberties even more. When the general population agreed that fascism was completely unacceptable in any political discourse, we could afford to have free speech and free political associations. If factions that would destroy every liberty we had to speak of run a very real risk of gaining political power because we can't mediate the flow of political thought, it's just a sacrifice of one freedom in order to save every other freedom to curb free speech in order to prevent them from gaining power. The many freedoms we enjoy under a republic outweigh the few freedoms like speech and association that need to be curbed to prevent fascism.


Contradictory? If consistency is a virtue, sure. Inherently wrong? If humans thought purely in boolean, maybe.

Authoritarian? Hell yeah it is. It's outright coercive. But the fact is, all civilization fundamentally depends on some level of coercion to function on the most basic levels. Which would you rather: a country with a few ridiculous authoritarian controls, or a country with a thousand ridiculous authoritarian controls, where the government proudly stomps around like a toddler and gasses anyone that looks at them funny without so much as an attempt to make it look like they had a fair trial by jury?




Maybe you're the one who's ignorant of where these people congregate and how they expand their power if you really think they're so weak. In fact your whole worldview is probably shaped by the dying vestiges of the old left-wing - which will be completely extinct in due time - if you really believe the rhetoric that the Alt-Right is still a "fringe minority." Next you'll be saying they're all morbidly obese betamales who wank off to anime or some other ad hominem. This attitude of "m-maybe if I stop giving them attention, they'll go away" is just allowing them to spread, because they couldn't care less if one mongrel stops giving them attention, they'll just find another venue to forcibly shoehorn themselves into and gain supporters. They do not listen to basic ethos, they just keep brute-forcing their way through everything until all resistance is crushed.


I'd bet you fifty bucks their influence will have at LEAST doubled within the next twenty years, but the fact is we don't have 20 years to wait and see what happens. Because if there's even a chance the fascists will have bolstered their influence by then, it may be too late. Fascism is built upon a strong intolerance to any dissent, even the seed of dissent. You can't crush fascism in its adult form, you have to stomp out its seed.



Also, freedom itself as an absolute moral value is a pipe dream, unfit for the real world of politics. Security is a lot more important, and a lot more elusive. When people bring up the freedom-versus-security point they forget that freedom is just a means to the end of security, because it's easier for people to take away your security if they can take away your freedom. You can't even begin to fight for your freedom if you're not secure, because then your basic needs aren't met, and you die like a rat. Liberal democracy just gives security to a greater number of people because there's less of a chance a SWAT team will randomly show up at your door one morning and gas you in the back of a van.

In essence, you would have the U.S. become a police state now in order to prevent one being created in some fascist revolution. I guess that shows how little personal freedoms really matter to you.

No, what you are really concerned about is power. Absolute centralised control is acceptable, provided that the people in power are on your side. Sadly, what you'll of course find out is that even though the evil fascist bigots may be dealt with - sent off to camps and executed by the Red Guard, I suppose - you'll have a new set of problems to deal with that are even worse.

Be careful what you wish for, my friend.

[Hitta]

That's actually completely wrong. A person should only take sides if they completely agree with what the side is, otherwise they should only represent their own side. It sounds good coming from a holocaust survivor, cause of the Nazi's in Germany. When you see such pure evil and horror, it probably isn't difficult to choose sides. When things are far more grey though, choosing sides to back something up that doesn't go completely with your internal parameters though is what sinks societies. Group think is where humanity all goes off the cliff together.

[Hitta]

TBH, his quote represents the exact reason the Nazi's existed to begin with... which is quite ironic coming from a holocaust survivor. ****** came, started preaching about some points. People probably only agreed with some of his points and backed him anyways. The whole system started binding together, and then there's Nazis.