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Thread: Leonard Cohen

  1. #1
    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Default Leonard Cohen

    Leonard Cohen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

     

















    quotes:

    Poetry is just the evidence of life. If your life is burning well, poetry is just the ash. - Leonard Cohen

    The last refuge of the insomniac is a sense of superiority to the sleeping world. - Leonard Cohen

    When you stop thinking about yourself all the time, a certain sense of repose overtakes you.

    There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

    I don't really understand that process called reincarnation but if there is such a thing I'd like to come back as my daughter's dog.

    I am an old scholar, better-looking now than when I was young. That's what sitting on your ass does to your face.

    The term clinical depression finds its way into too many conversations these days. One has a sense that a catastrophe has occurred in the psychic landscape.

    Prayer is translation. A man translates himself into a child asking for all there is in a language he has barely mastered.

    Act the way you'd like to be and soon you'll be the way you act.

    I don't consider myself a pessimist. I think of a pessimist as someone who is waiting for it to rain. And I feel soaked to the skin.

    Any startling piece of work has a subversive element in it, a delicious element often. Subversion is only disagreeable when it manifests in political or social activity.

    My sense of proprietorship has been so weak that actually I didn't pay attention and I lost the copyrights on a lot of the songs.

    As a young man, Yeats spoke to me in a way I could understand. Shakespeare I couldn't understand, but Yeats I could. It was his subject matter and also I really admired the way he put his personal life on the line.

    Most of the time one is discouraged by the work, but now and again by some grace something stands out and invites you to work on it, to elaborate it or animate it in some way. It's a mysterious process.
    Last edited by silke; 07-07-2015 at 04:03 AM. Reason: updated links
    ILE "Searcher"
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    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    JuJu's Avatar
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    The most blatant Ni-INFp I've seen on here in awhile.

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    looks like dustin hoffman.
    6w5 sx
    model Φ: -+0
    sloan - rcuei

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    I see him as INTj Ti
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    The most blatant Ni-INFp I've seen on here in awhile.
    I have to concur with INFp, but he's a quite well rounded person so I find it not all that easy to decide between IEI and other options like ILI.

    This interview may be enlightening, especially the last minute or so:
    Greetings, ragnar
    ILI knowledge-seeker

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    c esi-se 6w7 spsx ashlesha's Avatar
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    i hit ragnars post constructive by accident though it may very well be, lol, haven't watched the video yet.

    might as well bump now. sensitive song writer dude stereotypical infp but is that right? i just found him and I'm entering the infatuation phase.

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    googling gave me infp, intp, infj
    (and the odd estj on socionics.com, lol)

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    started to watch the video ragnar posted.
    got frustrated with his. very. slow. manner of.... speaking. with, uh *clears throat* .. so. many. pauses.
    scrolled to the last minute or so and became interested.
    scrolled to the middle, hoping he'd loosened up some and his speaking style would have been more tolerable by then.
    shit.

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    Fi-INFj

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
    I have to concur with INFp, but he's a quite well rounded person so I find it not all that easy to decide between IEI and other options like ILI.

    This interview may be enlightening, especially the last minute or so:
    How awkward
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    ■■■■■■ Radio's Avatar
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    INXj

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    you can go to where your heart is Galen's Avatar
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    Has the same sort of subdued muttering quality I get from Sp IJs. Sp/So sounds right to me.

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    I saw him in concert in 2011. I would say an IP temperment. Like ragnar said, a toss up between INFp and INTp. I could see him as the right hand of some ESFp (haha, "science").
    Cohen often changed his mind during the show about his set, his songs contain narratives involving multiple characters and points of view, that really have no conclusion; he seemed like a diplomatic guy, but also very private; his musical style is non conventional and contains lots of different rythms. He moved so slow and soft on stage. My gut says he is an irrational type.
    Last edited by wacey; 02-23-2013 at 08:08 AM.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    I saw him in concert in 2011. I would say an IP temperment. Like Gilly said, a toss up between INFp and INTp. I could see him as the right hand of some ESFp (haha, "science").
    Cohen often changed his mind during the show about his set, his songs contain narratives involving multiple characters and points of view, that really have no conclusion; he seemed like a diplomatic guy, but also very private; his musical style is non conventional and contains lots of different rythms. He moved so slow and soft on stage. My gut says he is an irrational type.
    I didn't give any type for him. He seems introverted, probably Judicious.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I didn't give any type for him. He seems introverted, probably Judicious.
    Edited, thanks, you were quoting ragnar I see.

    I can see the Judicious nature in Cohen, but I wouldn't that use reinen quality alone, because it is too broad and undefined to begin with. If eight types are judicious, then it is not saying anything really specific about the sociotype. Which I guess you are saying anyway. I agree on the introverted.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I'm saying he seems Si/Ne > Se/Ni.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    c esi-se 6w7 spsx ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Has the same sort of subdued muttering quality I get from Sp IJs.
    for the record i am not like that. its torturous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    I can see the Judicious nature in Cohen, but I wouldn't that use reinen quality alone, because it is too broad and undefined to begin with. If eight types are judicious, then it is not saying anything really specific about the sociotype. Which I guess you are saying anyway. I agree on the introverted.
    if he's already introverted then it narrows it down from eight types to four.

    he's pretty obviously introverted. i thought ip from his lyrical style but then seeing him in that interview he looked ij.

    i'm inclined at this point to say infj but i'm not really convinced enough for it to be very satisfying. just smashing opinions together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    for the record i am not like that. its torturous.
    I'm like that. I think it has a lot to do with having a firm grasp on the intended conceptual meaning. And when I share the ideas which form the meaning, what I speak ends up sounding trivial w/o their full intended context. That's why speaking and trying to define it all can be so jumbled. I don't think in words so it's hard matching ideas with words. This is especially noticeable when put on the spot, because I then try to think in words (you know something communicable) and nothing happens.
    Last edited by 717495; 02-23-2013 at 09:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    if he's already introverted then it narrows it down from eight types to four.

    he's pretty obviously introverted. i thought ip from his lyrical style but then seeing him in that interview he looked ij.

    i'm inclined at this point to say infj but i'm not really convinced enough for it to be very satisfying. just smashing opinions together.
    I thought INFp for the lyrical meandering, reflective quality of his songs, which are very "time" centered (focused on the sequence of events and their histories of the characters). I would say his music lyrics comes from a Ni, introverted intuitive kind of place.

    Okay, so thats his music. The interview is difficult because like others said he seems very well balanced individual, so this makes it difficult to grab onto sociotype traits as it were. I am seeing the IJ temperment from the interview, which did not come across when I saw him in concert. Maybe because live shows, one would have to be more irrational and go with the flow, relying more on the moment.

    I can see the valuing on Te as well. In the start of the interview, Cohen says he worries about the plumbing, electricity ext of his house when its not occupied.

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    I would add one more Reinen dicotomy: constructivist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    lyrical meandering, reflective quality of his songs, which are very "time" centered (focused on the sequence of events and their histories of the characters).

    I can see the valuing on Te as well. In the start of the interview, Cohen says he worries about the plumbing, electricity ext of his house when its not occupied.
    Blasted be another INTp. Bop him on the head!

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Blasted be another INTp. Bop him on the head!
    Whoo me? or Cohen. Because like i said before, my applying what I have read with my gut suspicions for Cohen I would say ILI. Others are making a case for EII though.

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    Forget INFj. It's been made crystal clear.

    http://www.socionics.com/prof/intp.htm
    When INTps speak publicly they habitually adopt a slow, monotone speech pattern. This may have a sleep inducing hypnotic effect on their audience...
    INTps may check that all home appliances are off many times before leaving.

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    @polikujm, this is opening a whole new area for me, thanks. Somewhere along the way typing becomes a real hobby.

    Haha, the type descriptions are funny sometimes. Cohen seems to sing in one key, one or two notes. His music is more like spoken poetry. I think, why not an ILI become a famous musical artist? So in my view: irrational, constructivist, Ni base or creative. But I can see what people mean when they say IJ temperament. I am just not sold on INFj, soley for lack of a better type.

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    &papu silke's Avatar
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    SLI-Si leaning on 3w4 sp/sx

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    I think he is LSE-Si.

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    I was surprised this thread isn't more popular and there isn't a ton of activity on it from when he passed away. Leonard Cohen is like proof your sociotypes don't work. The most rational-acting guy is the most prototypical lyricist; the person who looks like everyone's grand/dad got famous for singing about sex; the biggest victim is known for talking about rape, slavery, and mutilation; the most obvious introverted intuitive is rather concerned with mundane topics and activities. It doesn't matter that he wrote the most-covered song of all time, if he doesn't fit into a socionics type he's going to be buried rather than discussed incessantly. Yet people spend all their time trying to type Taylor Swift, which we all know is just because they want to "VI" her as long as possible.

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    Leonard Cohen - IEI-N > Taylor Swift - EIE-C

    He's pretty much the definition of a 'Lyricist'

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    He seems SLI.

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    Agree with Te-creative, could make a decent case for either SLI or ILI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I was surprised this thread isn't more popular and there isn't a ton of activity on it from when he passed away. Leonard Cohen is like proof your sociotypes don't work. The most rational-acting guy is the most prototypical lyricist; the person who looks like everyone's grand/dad got famous for singing about sex; the biggest victim is known for talking about rape, slavery, and mutilation; the most obvious introverted intuitive is rather concerned with mundane topics and activities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    It doesn't matter that he wrote the most-covered song of all time, if he doesn't fit into a socionics type he's going to be buried rather than discussed incessantly. Yet people spend all their time trying to type Taylor Swift, which we all know is just because they want to "VI" her as long as possible.


    I think what's particularly amusing to me about the bolded part in the comment (not that it's funny exactly, on the contrary I think it's actually really important you mentioned it) is that H
    allelujah is kind of less of a grand lyrical symphony and more of a prototype/template of how to make a 'good song'. This is why it is covered so much; not only does it sound really good, but it's also quite easy to modify and put your own spin on it, almost to a utilitarian degree.
    I believe it's very possible for Te-types to make creative music in a similar way they can be music producers, sound engineers, and people who manage record labels; they know what works. Te itself is about applying knowledge about what's practical, not what's perfect (ie. Ti), but I wonder if it's possible that a Te-creative (given Demonstrative Ti) could write a song so perfectly fit to purpose in every conceivable way that it really could be the most covered song of all time.

    I'm not saying that Cohen wrote the song with such a mind-set, I think that would be disingenuous and cynical to say so. But a lot of the theories about how sociotypes and quadras work is that they have an unconscious aspect to them, a need for them to fulfill no matter their environment. I think Cohen's unconscious as a Te-creative, was informing him not necessarily how to make the most dramatic heart-rending song of all time, but the one that is easily accessible and transformative while still keeping its core 'function' the same.

    On another note, ironically, I think the idea of IEIs being 'lyricists' is much less about music strictly, and more about poetry. Modern mainstream music is highly-marketable and, in a sense, not really unique or personal except in some rare circumstances. Poetry, on the other hand, is almost never marketable or even mainstream, which I think is maybe the greater 'domain' for IEIs to exist in. Some socionists label them as "The Poet" rather than "The Lyricist" anyway, the latter is just the most common because it sounds cool.
    Last edited by Manatroid92; 11-16-2022 at 01:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manatroid92 View Post
    On another note, ironically, I think the idea of IEIs being 'lyricists' is much less about music strictly, and more about poetry. Modern mainstream music is highly-marketable and, in a sense, not really unique or personal except in some rare circumstances. Poetry, on the other hand, is almost never marketable or even mainstream, which I think is maybe the greater 'domain' for IEIs to exist in. Some socionists label them as "The Poet" rather than "The Lyricist" anyway, the latter is just the most common because it sounds cool.
    "The Lyricist" seems to transparently refer to lyric poetry (as opposed to, say, epic poetry, narrative poetry, dramatic poetry, or the like.) If they meant people who wrote lyrics, it would probably be "the singer-songwriter" and the example wouldn't be Yesenin. Also, Cohen's early career was just writing poetry and he went into music precisely because it paid more money. That's why he basically talks in his songs instead of really properly singing, because his main job is basically writing poetry. His books way predate his singing career, they just didn't sell so well because poetry doesn't tend to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    "The Lyricist" seems to transparently refer to lyric poetry (as opposed to, say, epic poetry, narrative poetry, dramatic poetry, or the like.) If they meant people who wrote lyrics, it would probably be "the singer-songwriter" and the example wouldn't be Yesenin. Also, Cohen's early career was just writing poetry and he went into music precisely because it paid more money. That's why he basically talks in his songs instead of really properly singing, because his main job is basically writing poetry. His books way predate his singing career, they just didn't sell so well because poetry doesn't tend to.
    Fair points. I've just seen others see 'Lyricist' and often get the wrong idea on what it actually means.
    Also didn't know Cohen was a poet, but that does make a lot of sense, yes!

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    I think pretty much the majority of artists are IEI, all the actors on tv playing roles, the average singer, there's a huge gap in their talent of course but people don't understand types if they think SLI write poetry, or it's a lack of real world interactions.

    https://youtu.be/ocDli45faiw

    In big five, creativity is related to openess to experience, but in socionics, every type can apparently be a musician and write poetry. Might as well use the big five smh
    my ideas about socionics:

    https://soziotypen.de/thoughts-on-socionics/

    the section will be updated ever other month or so.

    this is a VI thread with IEI examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-(IEI-edition)

    and this is a thread with EIE examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    I think pretty much the majority of artists are IEI, all the actors on tv playing roles, the average singer, there's a huge gap in their talent of course but people don't understand types if they think SLI write poetry, or it's a lack of real world interactions.

    https://youtu.be/ocDli45faiw

    In big five, creativity is related to openess to experience, but in socionics, every type can apparently be a musician and write poetry. Might as well use the big five smh
    Congratulations, you have just learned that socionics is nonsense! But even more nonsense when you type extraverted rational people as Ip. (Leonard Cohen seems introverted but rational to me personally. Most successful people who aren't lowbrow film stars selling their looks seem rational. Some artists are extraverted, though probably not Leonard Cohen. Quadras are nonsense.)

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    It's not nonsense, it's actually quite a solid theory. The way people apply it (typing a clearly gifted, creative singer-songwriter as SLI) is just nonsense
    my ideas about socionics:

    https://soziotypen.de/thoughts-on-socionics/

    the section will be updated ever other month or so.

    this is a VI thread with IEI examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-(IEI-edition)

    and this is a thread with EIE examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    It's not nonsense, it's actually quite a solid theory. The way people apply it (typing a clearly gifted, creative singer-songwriter as SLI) is just nonsense
    He's clearly not SLI, and socionics is also nonsense. He started as a poet and only went into singer-songwriting for money. Where's the Te-PoLR or for that matter the Te-seeking? IEI would be reasonable since he's a huge victim, but what he isn't is a huge ditz like socionics describes. Yet he's clearly not EIE, or ILI. Maybe EII, but I don't think EIIs get up and sing about ironically raping people during the Apocalypse. Whether you love or hate them, Leonard Cohen song lyrics are much more interesting than sticking vapid stereotypes on people.

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    Give me crack and anal sex

  39. #39

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    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
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    He seems SLI. My SLI dad who doesn’t really like music likes him a bit..also an ILI today was wearing a ‘Leonard Cohen was right’ top today. Lookalike love me thinks.

    is there a vid (maybe in this thread). He talks about not liking Shakespeare (EIE)and worrying about the plumbing in his house. That seems SLI to me.

    his music is beautiful. More beautiful than Dylan. SLI often have kind souls..it’s the music of an SLI genius artist to me

    he has a bit of a cheesy SLI grin too..and mysterioussss
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 11-16-2022 at 05:51 PM.

  40. #40

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    TIM
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    maybe more alternative/ counter-cultural artists resemble their super-ego type? Because they are trying to reach some sort of mysterious ideal in their work? And more mainstream artists look like their dual.

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