ISTps fearing being misunderstood and withdrawing

[JuJu]

From Provoskievaskyivieasksaskietnsklaeta's (sp?) site:

"Being afraid secretly of being misunderstood (SLI are very vulnerable), he will prefer hiding his real attitude to people at all. However if humiliated or made fun in public, they can burst into tears and lose their temper shouting at the offender. This type representatives remember even the smallest offences and after serious quarrels they are capable of break the relations forever."

I've noticed the above trait in several SLIs -- and it seems to me that the "smallest offences/break relations forever" aspect is one of the biggest hurdles -- from an IEE's perspective anyway -- to SLI-IEE duality...

I mean, realistically, most intimate relationships have at least one "serious quarrel" or two... And generally IEE's are pretty docile and peace-loving, but usually there's a little fire there too... Especially under stress, ENFps can run their mouths, (at least I have in the past... My two ENFp friends too, fo sho..! We're gettin better at not doing it, I believe--we just taked about it the other day...)

I guess what I'm wondering is, if an IEE-SLI couple has a "serious quarrel," and the SLI decides to "break relations forever," is there anything that the IEE can do to save the relationship after the fact..? If not, is there anything good to say or do that will let the SLI know that you really care for them despite the argument..? That you were essentially just running your mouth, and that you'd like for the relations not to be broken 4eva..?

I mean, ideally there'd be no fighting between IEE-SLI, (or anyone for that matter,) but let's just suppose that there is in this case... SLIs, your answers will be helpful to us IEEs--we would like to be better for you, after all. Both genders please answer.

[jessica129]

I don't think I've ever held a grudge. I remember this question was brought up a few times. I can't remember any instance in which i completely cut someone out of my life whom I cared about. Now if i didn't care about you that much to begin with and you've wronged me, I'll forget you exist. Easily. I can't imagine someone I care about doing something SO terrible that I'd want to cut off all ties. I choose who I care about very carefully and with good reason...i know they have the potential to hurt me but if i care about you, i care about you forever. End of story.

[xyz]

Edit: Just follow your gut ENFps

And your Fi.

[JuJu]

Edit: Just follow your gut ENFps

And your Fi.

LokiV, I like your advice... Why did you take down the last one? That was gold!!

I love these responses!! Please keep them coming if possible.

[xyz]

LokiV, I like your advice... Why did you take down the last one? That was gold!!

I love these responses!! Please keep them coming if possible.

I guess it makes me feel a little vulnerable but I'll stop being a little bitch and just post it again:





Even admitting the fact that I can loser my temper over certain small issues makes me uncomfertable.

I've noticed the above trait in several SLIs -- and it seems to me that the "smallest offences/break relations forever" aspect is one of the biggest hurdles -- from an IEE's perspective anyway -- to SLI-IEE duality...

I mean, realistically, most intimate relationships have at least one "serious quarrel" or two... And generally IEE's are pretty docile and peace-loving, but usually there's a little fire there too... Especially under stress, ENFps can run their mouths, (at least I have in the past... My two ENFp friends too, fo sho..! We're gettin better at not doing it, I believe--we just taked about it the other day...)

I guess what I'm wondering is, if an IEE-SLI couple has a "serious quarrel," and the SLI decides to "break relations forever," is there anything that the IEE can do to save the relationship after the fact..?

Keep trying and try to be as sincere as you can about the fact that you were just running your mouth. While we can understand the fact that other people have word vomit, it can still hurt.

If not, is there anything good to say or do that will let the SLI know that you really care for them despite the argument..? That you were essentially just running your mouth, and that you'd like for the relations not to be broken 4eva..?

don't leave us alone! heh, by that I mean keep trying, we're stubborn fucks, but if we see you trying a lot (within reason of course), we'll kinda come to our senses and go "Wow, s/he really means it..".

Basically, unless we specifically say "we need time to think" or "i need to be alone", keep trying.

I mean, ideally there'd be no fighting between IEE-SLI, (or anyone for that matter,) but let's just suppose that there is in this case... SLIs, your answers will be helpful to us IEEs--we would like to be better for you, after all. Both genders please answer.

Yeah, I mean there's always gonna be SOME sort of arguing no matter what, I just think as you get closer to your duals, the quantity or arguing goes down.


Also, even though we're stubborn fucks, we can also do the whole "forgive and forget" thing.
Like, if I say "I forgive you", you better believe that I mean it. Forgive you, and I'd forget it'd ever happened.

[Slacker]

Before my husband and I got married, he got angry at me because he said I made fun of his weight in front of other people. I don't even remember what I said, but it wasn't intentional, and I wasn't aware he would be so sensitive because he didn't come across that way at all. We joke and tease each other a lot, and I didn't know that any joking would be off limits in front of others. Anyway, I learned to be careful and not say anything that could even potentially be perceived negatively in public. It didn't really turn into a fight. We've only had one fight, just after we got married, and that was a different issue. I've talked about that fight here before. When I was on birth control pills I would randomly flip out from time to time, but that never turned into a fight either - he would just go work in the garage until I got over it.

[JuJu]

I guess it makes me feel a little vulnerable but I'll stop being a little bitch and just post it again

You're great dude Thanks for this.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I've noticed the above trait in several SLIs -- and it seems to me that the "smallest offences/break relations forever" aspect is one of the biggest hurdles -- from an IEE's perspective anyway -- to SLI-IEE duality...

I mean, realistically, most intimate relationships have at least one "serious quarrel" or two... And generally IEE's are pretty docile and peace-loving, but usually there's a little fire there too... Especially under stress, ENFps can run their mouths, (at least I have in the past... My two ENFp friends too, fo sho..! We're gettin better at not doing it, I believe--we just taked about it the other day...)

I guess what I'm wondering is, if an IEE-SLI couple has a "serious quarrel," and the SLI decides to "break relations forever," is there anything that the IEE can do to save the relationship after the fact..? If not, is there anything good to say or do that will let the SLI know that you really care for them despite the argument..? That you were essentially just running your mouth, and that you'd like for the relations not to be broken 4eva..?

I mean, ideally there'd be no fighting between IEE-SLI, (or anyone for that matter,) but let's just suppose that there is in this case... SLIs, your answers will be helpful to us IEEs--we would like to be better for you, after all. Both genders please answer.

Incorrect. We laugh in the face of fear, and tweak the nose of terror.

[meatburger]

I actually know what you're saying about IEE's shooting their mouths off occasionally. I was friends with an SLi girl, we didn't really know each other. Anyway she told me she was cheating on her ex boyfriend for over a year. And i told her in no uncertian terms i thought that was shit. I then said that my feelings for her had dissapeared. We got into a bit of an argument and *snap* that was it. I tried apologising with quite nice emails on a number of occasions but she didn't want a bar of it. Brick wall.

Granted i admit that i was a bit of a jerk. I just tell myself i dont mind because her character seemed a bit flawed but i still do think about her occasionally.

[jessica129]

Good luck finding a SLI that doesn't cheat.

[meatburger]

Good luck finding a SLI that doesn't cheat.

The two ISTp guys i know are very opposed to cheating. I honestly dont think either of them would cheat on a girlfriend. Do you think its something perhaps a little more common in ISTp women?

I can understand cheating the first couple of time (kind of), it was the fact that she was cheating for a whole year that really turned me inside out. I cant see any real justification for that.

[jessica129]

Growing up, I treated my boyfriends horrible, I cheated on nearly every single one of them...but then again, they weren't very serious relationships to begin with. I'd like to think that was a phase and I am ashamed of it. I haven't cheated on my current b/f and I don't plan to. People can change.

[meatburger]

Growing up, I treated my boyfriends horrible, I cheated on nearly every single one of them...but then again, they weren't very serious relationships to begin with. I'd like to think that was a phase and I am ashamed of it. I haven't cheated on my current b/f and I don't plan to. People can change.

I agree. I think that hopefully if you are with someone who is right for you, there should be no inclination to do it. Cheating is often a bi-product of people in shitty relationships.

Back onto the thread subject though, i think its that first few times with an ISTp that they will dislike you when you annoy them. If you become their actual friend they will be happy to forgive.

[JuJu]

Back onto the thread subject though, i think its that first few times with an ISTp that they will dislike you when you annoy them. If you become their actual friend they will be happy to forgive.

mb, you're talking about the "smallest offences" thing, and I believe that you're right about it... The "serious quarrel" thing is different, however--generally that only happens after, well, there's something about which to be serious, e.g. a serious relationship.

The advice in this thread has been awesome so far (!!)

Jessica129, I identify with what you wrote--during my first few relationships, I cheated in every one, sometimes with numerous ppl... I'm ashamed of it now, and can't believe how badly I acted back then--makes me sad to think about it. Like you said though, people can and do change... I would never do it now--I'd never do it again, actually. For me, this change occurred around the age of 19 or 20, so 5-6 yrs ago.

[mikemex]

Know what? I've become quite cruel nowadays. Before I used to care a lot about separations and such, but now I've decided I'm not willing to bend over my knees to get anyone to like me.

I've had many bad experiences with SLIs so I'm now leaving them to drown in their own shit.

[Lobo]

I agree. I think that hopefully if you are with someone who is right for you, there should be no inclination to do it. Cheating is often a bi-product of people in shitty relationships.

What if it happens with the person that is right for you, and it's not a shitty relationship?? It's ironic how you can ask someone that cheats if they would date a cheater, and they would say no... Like I said somewhere else, Fi+Ne slaps to kingdom-come is what's called for. It helps the world in the end. No judging really, more like showing a lot of disappointment of character and explaining lack of trust. This should work with people who care enough to feel really, really bad about it, to the point of crying. If no one does it, the person might never lose the bad habit.

[meatburger]

What if it happens with the person that is right for you, and it's not a shitty relationship??

Well that of course is the source of fear of mine, i certianlly see what your saying. Heres a few reasons i could think of where people could cheat in a good relationship.

a) They are ruthless and have seen a better relationship anyway. If you are with your dual they have met another dual who they like more and are willing to take that risk
b) they have some element of a personality problem, where they need sex or dont feel they are close enough to the other person.
c) The person just goes what the hell why not just go for it for fun and try to hide it.
d) The relationship just dims down and some element of boredom / unhappiness sets in
e) It happened because of some random chance encounter when they were really drunk
f) etc..

I dont deny these are definate possibilities.

I think

a) tough luck. The person chose someone else over you, telling them they did something wrong is gonna get nowhere because they are probablly more happy now anyway.
b) Thats their problem, unfortunately people like that probablly need psychological help and may never settle down until they do
c) um. I dunno some kind of crazy new age thinking. They obviously dont really care enough about the idea of relationships and /or you.
d) I suppose that qualfies for a shitty relationship (to some degree).
e) Probablly the most interesting one. I personally believe i have enough self control that no matter how drunk i am i know what im doing. No idea about other people tho.

I would just think that most of the time cheating has simpler explanations. I recon its likely they are in a poor intertype relation already. It seems to me generally when two people really do care for each other, cheating is unlikely to happen.

Like I said somewhere else, Fi+Ne slaps to kingdom-come is what's called for. It helps the world in the end. No judging really, more like showing a lot of disappointment of character and explaining lack of trust. This should work with people who care enough to feel really, really bad about it, to the point of crying. If no one does it, the person might never lose the bad habit.

I dont even have a trying to sort them out policy. I just have a im dumping you and thats that policy. One of two things occurs.

a) They dont really care that they are not with you. Good luck to them
b) They do care greatly and want you back.

With a) theres really nothing you can do any type of making them feel guilty is unlikely to work as they are off getting wet with someone else.
b) is more interesting. At least being brutal to them for a long time/forever might actually teach them a lesson (which is what you said sereno).

I just read over my post and its total stream of thought nonsense. Its certianlly not perfect just use it for ideas please

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Personally I don't cheat. One of the things I like about relationships is establishing long term, trusting, 'internal' bonds. So to cheat would kind of defeat the purpose of that.

[meatburger]

Personally I don't cheat. One of the things I like about relationships is establishing long term, trusting, 'internal' bonds. So to cheat would kind of defeat the purpose of that.

Im reinforcing that behaviour

you get a cookie

[leckysupport]

Before my husband and I got married, he got angry at me because he said I made fun of his weight in front of other people. I don't even remember what I said, but it wasn't intentional, and I wasn't aware he would be so sensitive because he didn't come across that way at all. We joke and tease each other a lot, and I didn't know that any joking would be off limits in front of others. Anyway, I learned to be careful and not say anything that could even potentially be perceived negatively in public.

It's like that with most people, I wouldn't relate that to what the description goes on about. Everyone has some kind of limit of what is offensive to them and what isn't and it's completely subjective.

The description doesn't particularly describe how I act much, I almost never lash out at anyone unless intimidating is the goal, the person is just being irritating or I'm tired/hungry.

[tiny_dancer]

Okay, wait a minute. So I'm reading the wiki and it says this about Te creative:

"The individual has a preference for factual accuracy over ideological consistency, and for objective, "harsh" communication over careful words that avoid a negative atmosphere."

Doesn't that sort of conflict with the paragraph that started this whole thread? How can you have objective communication and be easily offended at the same time?

Anyway, this whole thing reminds me of some marital issues that have been dredged up in the ILE-SLI couple that I know. She (ILE) vents a lot about whatever is frustrating her with her husband. Her husband found a 'venting' letter that she'd written to a family member eight years ago and brought it up in an argument a few months ago. They've only been together 10 years. Good God.

So is it an emotional thing or an easily offended thing? Like if someone said exactly the same thing, one emotionally charged and one deadpan, would it have the same effect?

[jessica129]

So is it an emotional thing or an easily offended thing? Like if someone said exactly the same thing, one emotionally charged and one deadpan, would it have the same effect?

I don't listen to people who are emotionally charged. The deadpan one would have a much more lasting effect on me.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Okay, wait a minute. So I'm reading the wiki and it says this about Te creative:

"The individual has a preference for factual accuracy over ideological consistency, and for objective, "harsh" communication over careful words that avoid a negative atmosphere."

Doesn't that sort of conflict with the paragraph that started this whole thread? How can you have objective communication and be easily offended at the same time?

Anyway, this whole thing reminds me of some marital issues that have been dredged up in the ILE-SLI couple that I know. She (ILE) vents a lot about whatever is frustrating her with her husband. Her husband found a 'venting' letter that she'd written to a family member eight years ago and brought it up in an argument a few months ago. They've only been together 10 years. Good God.

So is it an emotional thing or an easily offended thing? Like if someone said exactly the same thing, one emotionally charged and one deadpan, would it have the same effect?

The way I see it is that Te creative is the producing function. This means when it is in action it is producing logical information, it isn't accepting at the same time. So because it is producing it can be without emotion, but it is not accepting. So although the SLI may come across without consideration to emotion, this does not mean it cannot be sensitive to lack of consideration, as it is a different function involved in information receipt, in such a circumstance.

Point 2: maybe not the same effect, but something similar in many situations.

[Lobo]

Well that of course is the source of fear of mine, i certianlly see what your saying. Heres a few reasons i could think of where people could cheat in a good relationship.

a) They are ruthless and have seen a better relationship anyway. If you are with your dual they have met another dual who they like more and are willing to take that risk
b) they have some element of a personality problem, where they need sex or dont feel they are close enough to the other person.
c) The person just goes what the hell why not just go for it for fun and try to hide it.
d) The relationship just dims down and some element of boredom / unhappiness sets in
e) It happened because of some random chance encounter when they were really drunk
f) etc..

I dont deny these are definate possibilities.

I think

a) tough luck. The person chose someone else over you, telling them they did something wrong is gonna get nowhere because they are probablly more happy now anyway.
b) Thats their problem, unfortunately people like that probablly need psychological help and may never settle down until they do
c) um. I dunno some kind of crazy new age thinking. They obviously dont really care enough about the idea of relationships and /or you.
d) I suppose that qualfies for a shitty relationship (to some degree).
e) Probablly the most interesting one. I personally believe i have enough self control that no matter how drunk i am i know what im doing. No idea about other people tho.

I would just think that most of the time cheating has simpler explanations. I recon its likely they are in a poor intertype relation already. It seems to me generally when two people really do care for each other, cheating is unlikely to happen.



I dont even have a trying to sort them out policy. I just have a im dumping you and thats that policy. One of two things occurs.

a) They dont really care that they are not with you. Good luck to them
b) They do care greatly and want you back.

With a) theres really nothing you can do any type of making them feel guilty is unlikely to work as they are off getting wet with someone else.
b) is more interesting. At least being brutal to them for a long time/forever might actually teach them a lesson (which is what you said sereno).

I just read over my post and its total stream of thought nonsense. Its certianlly not perfect just use it for ideas please

Yeah, we're on the same page... and I didn't think that what you wrote was nonsense.

[force my hand]

Okay, wait a minute. So I'm reading the wiki and it says this about Te creative:

"The individual has a preference for factual accuracy over ideological consistency, and for objective, "harsh" communication over careful words that avoid a negative atmosphere."

Doesn't that sort of conflict with the paragraph that started this whole thread? How can you have objective communication and be easily offended at the same time?

The quote in question refers to how the SLI prefers to speak, which is not necessarily consistent with how they prefer to be spoken to. According to the model, this is probably explained by the differences in Fe and Fi placement.

[JuJu]

hey force, do you have any thoughts about the original passage? I'm wondering if a Te subtype thinks differently about it is all.

Jessica129, Cyclops, electric, Winterpark if you're there, other SLIs: do you identify with any subtypes?

[force my hand]

hey force, do you have any thoughts about the original passage? I'm wondering if a Te subtype thinks differently about it is all.

Jessica129, Cyclops, electric, Winterpark if you're there, other SLIs: do you identify with any subtypes?

I would say at times it has been relevent; moreso as a child. I think nowadays I am much better, though. If something starts to really bother me, my internal monologue pipes up and will usually rationalize me into a kind of apathy. I know enough people that one person cannot have to big of an effect on me, and I think I've been good enough at achieving my goals that I weather real life criticism well enough.

[Park]

Jessica129, Cyclops, electric, Winterpark if you're there, other SLIs: do you identify with any subtypes?

I am not sure if I can choose one subtype over the other, but I definitely relate to this :

"The individual has a preference for factual accuracy over ideological consistency, and for objective, "harsh" communication over careful words that avoid a negative atmosphere."

and it has been something that one of my biggest misunderstandings with people have been about, mostly Fe-valuing individuals, especially Beta NFs, ENFjs the most. Some people think that (by communicating like this) I show them disrespect, I want to insult them and whatnot.... and I just get pissed.

[xyz]

I am not sure if I can choose one subtype over the other, but I definitely relate to this :


and it has been something that one of my biggest misunderstandings with people have been about, mostly Fe-valuing individuals, especially Beta NFs, ENFjs the most. Some people think that (by communicating like this) I show them disrespect, I want to insult them and whatnot.... and I just get pissed.

Yeah, an ESFj that I know, when I talk in my real "normal" tone, thinks I am upset with her when I talk like that. And she keeps prodding me saying "whats wrong? why are you mad? don't be grouchy." and i say "im not." and she still doesn't get it.

.....Goddamnit.

[Park]

And she keeps prodding me saying "whats wrong? why are you mad? don't be grouchy." and i say "im not." and she still doesn't get it.

Yeap, that's the worst part. I am starting to get irritated just by thinking about it. Sheesh...

[xyz]

Yeah, I think that's why I had to adopt the sort of friendly personality. Not that i'm anti friend or anything, it's just that when i'm my real, normal self, everyone assumes im angry or that I look really intimidating. Honestly, I got sick of the "are you angry" questions all the time.


But, I think I should stop giving a fuck and be myself.

[Park]

But, I think I should stop giving a fuck and be myself.

Haha, but you can't (stop giving a fuck), can you?

[Park]

We joke and tease each other a lot, and I didn't know that any joking would be off limits in front of others. Anyway, I learned to be careful and not say anything that could even potentially be perceived negatively in public.

But isn't it so much easier once you learn the things he doesn't like? (which might be random/unusual/quirky but not large in quantity I'm sure) Because those things are fixed, they are constant, they don't change. And once you accept them and learn not to provoke them, you have no problems with your ISTp whatsoever. Am I right?

[Slacker]

But isn't it so much easier once you learn the things he doesn't like? (which might be random/unusual/quirky but not large in quantity I'm sure) Because those things are fixed, they are constant, they don't change. And once you accept them and learn not to provoke them, you have no problems with your ISTp whatsoever. Am I right?

Yeah. I think that's the only thing, anyway.

[tiny_dancer]

This conversation has been really interesting - thanks!

[JuJu]

Yeah, I think that's why I had to adopt the sort of friendly personality. Not that i'm anti friend or anything, it's just that when i'm my real, normal self, everyone assumes im angry or that I look really intimidating. Honestly, I got sick of the "are you angry" questions all the time.


But, I think I should stop giving a fuck and be myself.

I do this too... That is, change the way I act around certain types just to smooth things over... With me though, they don't find me intimidating--they find me, well, 'eccentric' I guess would be the word..? It's the Ne, def... I mean, sometimes if I'm being my real, normal self people will ask me why I'm asking so many questions, or why I'm smiling..? Makes me self-conscious, for sure, and makes me feel like maybe I shouldn't be doing those things...

Like you though, LokiV, I'm considering just not giving a fuck anymore.

P.S. Thank you for the responses so far, everyone... It seems like the original passage applies to maybe less mature ISTps than those inhabit this forum..? I appreciate everyone's honesty.

[msq]

It seems like the original passage applies to maybe less mature ISTps than those inhabit this forum..? I appreciate everyone's honesty.

A few years ago I was into a girl, we talked for a while. She kept accusing me (in a friendly way) of not talking to her enough or never initiating conversations. One day it just pissed me off, I started a quarrel. I have never seen her again.

Oh and yes, I do consider myself an immature SLI. I was a kid then (18yrs I guess), some things changed over the time a little (my attitude, behaviour, believes), but nothing regarding relationships, as I've been alone all the time.

[Park]

...some things changed over the time a little (my attitude, behaviour, believes), but nothing regarding relationships, as I've been alone all the time.

Don't remind me, damn it!

[msq]

Sorry pal

[JuJu]

Sorry pal

Makes three of us, haha... My last two relationships ended in flames, so I'm hoping to learn how not to wreck em, or if I wreck em, maybe how to fix em.