Sharing personal information for Beta types

[glam]

wikisocion on the beta quadra
Talking about personal matters in a group is not something that Betas generally do. It's viewed almost as treachery when something that was told in a one-on-one conversation is retold in front of a group, or when someone criticizes another person's traits in front of the group. Betas believe such things should be told in private and should not be used to embarrass or belittle a friend.

heard about this exact thing tonight when talking to an SLE, my brother. he was telling me about a certain situation in which personal information he told to somebody somehow reached someone that it shouldn't have. he said, "when I say something like that to somebody, I expect them to understand that I'm telling it to them in confidence." then he went on about how his whole system and command of this certain situation (which involved many people) was ruined, because of this one betrayal of information, and how angry it made him (both because of being betrayed that way, and of losing his perfect command of everything.)

do other betas relate? actually, this seems like something ANYONE would value, at least to me; I can't see why you wouldn't? however, it was written in the beta section for a reason, so what exactly is it about this behavior that makes it "beta"? what do other non-beta types think of this?

[UDP]

I relate to the above.

I think why it is "particularly beta", well, it makes me think of how LSIs sometimes just say "you don't need to know this", etc. There is a big deal about who knows what, and what level you are on, and how much you know.

What I do not relate to is this:

then he went on about how his whole system and command of this certain situation (which involved many people) was ruined, because of this one betrayal of information, and how angry it made him (both because of being betrayed that way, and of losing his perfect command of everything.)

I don't like the idea of a system or it controlling me or information.
I understand it is necessary somewhat, but as much as possible, I prefer to avoid that and just let the facts be known, and everything just be straight out, unaltered.

It is not something I usually feel, when information is divulged - that command is lost, that the system is out of control.

[Reuben]

The system of command is important to me. Without privacy of certain knowledge, or 'elite information', then it is hard to have certain power over people. For example, someone put you in his ignore list but you do not have access to this information. You simply want to know the state of relationship that person has with you, and thus you ask a friend if that person has you on his ignore list. You expect the person to be diplomatic, and not say "TheBlueBlade wants to know if you blocked him." That makes the person think that you are actually concerned that the person is not ignoring you. Once the person thinks that you are concerned about the relationship, then that person immediately thinks that he has power over you, and that his putting you on his ignore list is actually affecting you. That makes it harder for you to turn the tables or redeem the relationship as compared to when he did not think that he had power over you in the first place, even if he had no power over you at all.

It's all in the mind. To be powerful you must have things that people want. In this particular case, it is information. Beta is about power, being the best, and being strong. Having elite information takes you one step closer.

[UDP]

How does this compare to delta, is what I am wondering.

[PotatoSpirit]

I'm not sure why or if it is beta, but I very much relate to it.
It's not just the power of information for me though, it's about trust. If someone realizes something about me and tells people I don't mind it that much, but if it's something I told him, then it bugs me a lot.

I think why it is "particularly beta", well, it makes me think of how LSIs sometimes just say "you don't need to know this", etc. There is a big deal about who knows what, and what level you are on, and how much you know.

Oh boy.

[PotatoSpirit]

How does this compare to delta, is what I am wondering.

One ENFp friend will always tell his friends everything he has been told.
One INFj friend apparently likes people based on how much she feels she can trust them, and the ability to keep secrets seems to be the main component of this trust. I can't really say she keeps secrets herself though.

[Kristiina]

I wrote that paragraph in the beta section and I'm glad people agree with it.

I reached that conclusion when I had to spend a lot of time with deltas. There is no line between personal vs in group. I had problems with the ENFp in the group and I confronted him in a private conversation. I asked if he thinks badly of me because that's how I interpret his comments. And we talked it through and it was all good. It was just a misunderstanding. But a week later in the group, he said something negative and I smiled and automatically decided he was just joking (because now I knew he doesn't have a problem with me and it was just a joke) and then he cheerfully added, "and don't bother getting offended by that again because I didn't mean it in a bad way." And now that DID offend me. The ISTp and the INTp looked at me to see my reaction a bit and I felt so betrayed. How dare he say that in public like that. Jerk. I will never confront him about anything ever again. I really would rather secretly hate him for silly misinterpreted comments than ask what he really meant by that.

After that I started to hear more and more about deltas talking about personal problems in a group setting. I know one ESTj who would talk about many personal stories to half-strangers just to get Fi. Also, there was an ISTp (maybe INTp) who once commented how my boots don't look good with my black pants and how I should never wear it like that. It would have been very nice of her, if it hadn't been in front of my new boyfriend. In front of other people it was just plain mean. But obviously that kind of comments are normal in her quadra.

In a purely beta group I have never seen people talk about personal things. Yeah, sure, some things that we talk about seem like "personal topics" to people of other quadras. It is perfectly okay and normal to joke about "You're still together with that guy? haha, why?!", but it's not really typical to talk about deep inner emotions. Reply "hahaha, what can I say, - Love!" is better than, "I really love him." The second comment is reserved for a private conversation.

BTW, I don't have the chain of command thing either, but I have a very clear personal vs public distinction. When people discuss personal things in public, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.

[FDG]

Ah yeah, I notice that Betas never talk about their personal relationships and such.
That always seemed weird to me, but what can I say.
From an outside perspective, I want to clarify that I mean no harm when I ask question about it (and that I would be pissed too if an ISTp were to make such a comment in front of people).
I understand Kristiina's take on the issue, but I don't understand other poster's take.
What's this stuff about command? Do you really think some information about one random thing a person did makes any difference in a world of 6 billion people...?

[ScarlettLux]

Not sure if I relate to that ... what Kriistina said about feeling betrayed in those situations seems a bit extreme to me. I mean, I don't understand the whole power of command thing at all.

What I CAN relate to however, is the fact that I tend to gloss over really deep, personal things on a group level - I don't like the serious, heavy talks when there are a lot of people around. That's more of a one on one thing for me. When I do talk about personal things, especially with Beta quadra members, I do notice that we all joke about what should be serious topics to lighten the atmosphere and quickly move on to more broad topics. I guess Delta quadra is more into that whole thing, which I really am not.

I hung out with an ILI and an IEE one time and they kept going on and on about serious topics and I felt really, really awkward. I tried to lighten the mood and make it more lively but it did not work. Even when they joked around, it seemed serious and almost .. malicious to me. It was very exclusatory, lots of inside jokes and whatnot.

I think just wants to include people...

[lefty]

heard about this exact thing tonight when talking to an SLE, my brother. he was telling me about a certain situation in which personal information he told to somebody somehow reached someone that it shouldn't have. he said, "when I say something like that to somebody, I expect them to understand that I'm telling it to them in confidence." then he went on about how his whole system and command of this certain situation (which involved many people) was ruined, because of this one betrayal of information, and how angry it made him (both because of being betrayed that way, and of losing his perfect command of everything.)

do other betas relate? actually, this seems like something ANYONE would value, at least to me; I can't see why you wouldn't? however, it was written in the beta section for a reason, so what exactly is it about this behavior that makes it "beta"? what do other non-beta types think of this?

I relate. I think it is trechery. I think its also unsophisticated, manipulative, lazy, rude, etc. I think its sophisticated to know what to do when, to have self restraint, to keep secrets. I think when someone reveals a secret like that its because they want to humiliate you or get power over you. I think some types like Deltas like to gang up on people, and with the reporter as a member of the quadrant, will have a tendancy to tell people's secrets.

[Mariano Rajoy]

Fantastic thread. A+

[UDP]

I wrote that paragraph in the beta section and I'm glad people agree with it.

I reached that conclusion when I had to spend a lot of time with deltas. There is no line between personal vs in group. I had problems with the ENFp in the group and I confronted him in a private conversation. I asked if he thinks badly of me because that's how I interpret his comments. And we talked it through and it was all good. It was just a misunderstanding. But a week later in the group, he said something negative and I smiled and automatically decided he was just joking (because now I knew he doesn't have a problem with me and it was just a joke) and then he cheerfully added, "and don't bother getting offended by that again because I didn't mean it in a bad way." And now that DID offend me. The ISTp and the INTp looked at me to see my reaction a bit and I felt so betrayed. How dare he say that in public like that. Jerk. I will never confront him about anything ever again. I really would rather secretly hate him for silly misinterpreted comments than ask what he really meant by that.

Yeah. Why is that?
It is completely foreign to me. I'm not saying it is a beta, or beta NF trait, but I talked an EIE through this last night. She had totally off the mark assumptions about someone, and even when I explained things (heavy Te facts), it was a look of disappointment.

What happened was, she had negative thoughts about someone, but they were bordering... well they were verging into other forms of dislike (essentially she was drawing conclusions about someone because of things like socio-economic status). When in fact, there really was only misinterpretation about the person, because the EIE had little experience with said person.

The EIE may have initially been offset because I "corrected her" - in that I explained thoroughly and properly why the said person acted that way. I did this on two separate matters that night. The way she came up to her own conclusions was very odd, like a snowball affect of "well if this person is bad in this way, it must mean they are bad in other ways" - sort of just coming up with ideas that would support the desired emotional state (angst, dislike), rather than looking at what was really going on.

She was stunned at first but eventually she just seemed sort of like "well, ok, I see what you mean".


Anyways, "I really would rather secretly hate him for silly misinterpreted comments than ask what he really meant by that." - that seems very troublesome to me.

After that I started to hear more and more about deltas talking about personal problems in a group setting. I know one ESTj who would talk about many personal stories to half-strangers just to get Fi. Also, there was an ISTp (maybe INTp) who once commented how my boots don't look good with my black pants and how I should never wear it like that. It would have been very nice of her, if it hadn't been in front of my new boyfriend. In front of other people it was just plain mean. But obviously that kind of comments are normal in her quadra.

Nah I'm not so sure about that. I don't do things like that. Fe polr types probably would think its more funny, but I don't think that is a delta trait. Would you really see an INFj coming up to you and belittling your footwear? I doubt it. They are often so insecure about their own image they'd not be able to bear it if they did that to you.

In a purely beta group I have never seen people talk about personal things. Yeah, sure, some things that we talk about seem like "personal topics" to people of other quadras. It is perfectly okay and normal to joke about "You're still together with that guy? haha, why?!", but it's not really typical to talk about deep inner emotions. Reply "hahaha, what can I say, - Love!" is better than, "I really love him." The second comment is reserved for a private conversation.

For me, I just don't really get the idea of talking about surface level stuff or interacting just to have a good time. I can do that for a while but it just gets boring, because its like I am not doing anything substantial at all.

That being said, I like having beta NF friends because they are better at acclimatizing people. Foreplay has its uses I guess. I just don't like having to do too much buttering up.

BTW, I don't have the chain of command thing either, but I have a very clear personal vs public distinction. When people discuss personal things in public, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Hmm - but how are you with your family?
Are you more open just amongst your family members? I get the public stuff, but one EIE is very upfront about things - within her family.


Yet it does make sense, because, another EIE I work with is always, always, always about the mood and environment of people around him, and never really talks about anything personal. It seems phony to me because it is like he is just reacting to whoever is around him, rather than really saying anything. It's like he's just trying to maximize the emotional effect, mostly trying to get people to smile or inspire them. He doesn't ever talk about himself unless its a joke to get other people to laugh, or a sly comment.

[UDP]

What I CAN relate to however, is the fact that I tend to gloss over really deep, personal things on a group level - I don't like the serious, heavy talks when there are a lot of people around. That's more of a one on one thing for me. When I do talk about personal things, especially with Beta quadra members, I do notice that we all joke about what should be serious topics to lighten the atmosphere and quickly move on to more broad topics. I guess Delta quadra is more into that whole thing, which I really am not.

Yeah. I really don't understand (on a personal level) why that "beta" type of interaction is more appealing to you. It just doesn't register as enjoyable for me. But it is good to know that some people just value that.

I hung out with an ILI and an IEE one time and they kept going on and on about serious topics and I felt really, really awkward. I tried to lighten the mood and make it more lively but it did not work. Even when they joked around, it seemed serious and almost .. malicious to me. It was very exclusatory, lots of inside jokes and whatnot.

I think just wants to include people...

Did it bother you that the topics were so serious?
Or that you were left out?

[ScarlettLux]

Yeah. I really don't understand (on a personal level) why that "beta" type of interaction is more appealing to you. It just doesn't register as enjoyable for me. But it is good to know that some people just value that.


Did it bother you that the topics were so serious?
Or that you were left out?

Umm, I think more the fact that the whole atmosphere was different from what I was used to and it was just really weird for me. So I guess feeling "out" ... but then again, these two were close friends who had gone off to the same university and they wanted to just hang out with me and catch up. It seemed forced to me... the way we interacted was not natural.

LOL ... I find it funny that you can't imagine interacting "just for a good time" ? Wow, isn't that like the majority of what it means to be social? *Crickets chirping* I don't get it!

[PotatoSpirit]

If someone realizes something about me and tells people I don't mind it that much, but if it's something I told him, then it bugs me a lot.

More on this, even though I'm not sure what socionics value it can have, I have been in this situation a few times:

You, Tizio and Caio are good friends. Tizio has a secret he doesn't want to share with anyone, maybe he's in love with Sempronia, maybe he's gay, whatever.
Knowing Tizio, both you and Caio have some suspicions, gathered clues and maybe discussed it in Tizio's absence.
Tizio one day tells you that he is in fact in love with Sempronia.
Caio then wants to discuss the matter with you, animated by the usual friendly concern for Tizio's well being... what do you do?

Saying "I don't wanna/shouldn't talk about it" is like saying "yes, he told me, he loves her and I can't tell you". Silly hypocrisy.
So usually I lie, I say what I would have said if Tizio hadn't shared the truth.

[Kristiina]

@ UDP. "I really would rather secretly hate him for silly misinterpreted comments than ask what he really meant by that."
Well, feeling insulted for no reason is a sign of weakness. As if the person isn't self-confident enough. So it was a big deal to talk with my insulter and show even more weakness by letting him know that his comments are getting to me. But then he made a public comment letting EVERYONE know that I admitted myself that his comments are getting to me. So I had given him more ammonition to use against me. I'll never give him that advantage again.

Also, I don't think you were right to discredit EIE gut feeling about someone. Some things DO indicate some other things. You have to read between the lines (Fe in stead of Te) to see some personality issues. Te dominants sometimes just judge Fe for no good reason and IMO you should keep your Te wisdom for people who actually want to hear it. The EIE probably didn't.

and I don't talk about personal stuff with my family. Only with my husband and sometimes one sister. And sometimes Potatospirit. I'd rather write a thread about it than discuss it with my family.


@Potatospirit. LOL those are ACTUAL names?!

[force my hand]

How does this fit in with Fe vs Fi?

I don't understand. What's hilarious, however, is the suggesstion that Delta loves to blab personal information. Am I in the socionics twilight zone, or something?

[force my hand]

Well, first, I don't claim to understand socionics to any decent extent, so take my words with a grain of salt and feel free to correct where necessary. But the impression I'm under is that Fi-valuing would be less likely to blab personal information simply on the basis of how that information was gained in the first place. If you're a Fe type, we can assume in a general sense that much of your interpersonal information is going to be gained within a Fe-context, no?

I try to take care in not revealing information that has been given to me unless explicit consent has been given. I also keep secrets very well. It horrifies me to hear some of the things my sister (ESFj?) will tell me about her friends, things I should not know.

[UDP]

@ UDP. "I really would rather secretly hate him for silly misinterpreted comments than ask what he really meant by that."
Well, feeling insulted for no reason is a sign of weakness. As if the person isn't self-confident enough. So it was a big deal to talk with my insulter and show even more weakness by letting him know that his comments are getting to me. But then he made a public comment letting EVERYONE know that I admitted myself that his comments are getting to me. So I had given him more ammonition to use against me. I'll never give him that advantage again.

-- it is remarks like this that make beta so stressful for me. It is like everything is some competition, and its always on. "I'll never give him that advantage again" *rolls eyes* You're working with someone, not warring. Hopefully.

Particularly ISTjs and ENFjs just exude that aura you are talking about, at times. Some are cool about it and do it in a more enlightened way, but its still there. Like every single thing is an instance to bicker about and be concerned with how you look towards everyone else. Now, yes, some of that in moderation is reasonable, even useful. But I suppose when betas get deep into that habit, it is quite bothersome.

It always reminds me of this classic example - I asked one group why they like playing board games so competitively all the time. I said plain out why I don't like playing with them - it is not very relaxing. One of them said "Relaxing?! It's not supposed to be relaxing". And yet they seem totally unaware that this attitude of constant competitiveness is what is draining them and wearing them out and making them cranky. When they are tired they just crash and do nothing ('they' are a predominantly beta group I know, containing mostly an LSI and two EIIs).

Bottom line: I caution people who feel like Kristiina do above to be wary about how much tension they are adding to situation by always seeing things as some form of interpersonal competition. Ammunition, betrayal, whatever. Some things just are not that big of a deal.

Also, I don't think you were right to discredit EIE gut feeling about someone. Some things DO indicate some other things. You have to read between the lines (Fe in stead of Te) to see some personality issues.

Her gut feeling was not wrong, but what she was getting upset about was incorrect. She was making wrong assumptions about someone that were totally not true. It happens often (to all people), and it is basically the halo effect. But I absolutely was not 'wrong' in telling the EIE what really was going on.

Te dominants sometimes just judge Fe for no good reason and IMO you should keep your Te wisdom for people who actually want to hear it. The EIE probably didn't.

This was not a judgment call - the conclusions she was making based on the evidence she saw were incorrect. I don't care what she thinks about anyone, but it does not entitle you to start assuming things about someone.

She had started warping ideas about someone (who was actually a bad person) into things to support a prejudice about a certain type of people in general. Basically, she was saying how she was not really prejudiced against XYZ people, but this one individual was really making the EIE wonder about the XYZ people as a group. The individual in question does have some problems, but the EIE was starting to turn things into ideas that the individual was problematic and bad because they were XYZ. She then listed some observations she had and the conclusions she drew from them. Then knowing more about the individual and what has transpired than she did, I immediately corrected her about the conclusions she drew. Yes, indeed, the individual was a problematic person. But it was not due to being XYZ, nor any of the other related factors she was bringing up. That is the situation in a very small nutshell, believe it or not.

Te dominants sometimes just judge Fe for no good reason and IMO you should keep your Te wisdom for people who actually want to hear it. The EIE probably didn't.

She was going to hear it because it was essential, and her conclusions were just not true. I would almost go so far as to say that if I didn't say anything I would be doing her a disservice, because it would be unlikely anyone else would have the knowledge or position to say what I said. That, and, she needed to have her assumptions based in reality and not on far-fetched ideas, or, as I saw it, "ideas that were conclusion-based": ideas and interpretations about the people that came up as a result of seeing someone in a bad light. That is to say, the conclusions were formed after having a feeling about someone in mind already, rather than having what actually happened generate conclusions about someone.

Yes that is nitpicking somewhat, but this person needed it, in this situation especially.


Finally,

Te dominants sometimes just judge Fe for no good reason and IMO you should keep your Te wisdom for people who actually want to hear it. The EIE probably didn't.

And, I really dislike that attitude in general - Te wisdom or not - people shouldn't withhold information too much. I despise it when Fe types "shelter me" from things so as to not hurt my feelings. The only thing that seems to work on them is persistent training and wearing them down to make them realize that I'm not like other people and you better tell me, or at least "it will boost my mood, the more you tell me" - or however it is easier to digest.

[PotatoSpirit]

I don't understand. What's hilarious, however, is the suggesstion that Delta loves to blab personal information. Am I in the socionics twilight zone, or something?

Uhm in case I contributed to that, I'd like to say that I have found neither evidence nor a good theory that supports this beta vs delta view... my two examples were just things that came to mind.

@Potatospirit. LOL those are ACTUAL names?!

Nah, they are used in Italy for random people(c: I think they come from Latin, and were used by Roman lawyers.

[force my hand]

Uhm in case I contributed to that, I'd like to say that I have found neither evidence nor a good theory that supports this beta vs delta view... my two examples were just things that came to mind.

FWIW, I think I'm more likely to believe that a preference for keeping personal information under wraps spans type.

[jcavosr]

First of all, this is a wonderful thread...
...so I'll do my best to give you my own perspective because I have trouble keeping up with all the other posts

This is a favorite subject of introspection for me, so I'm confident in saying that I keep information close for fear of looking weak or desperate. I've been very hurt in the past when personal information, expressed in private, was made public. I tend to keep most personal information, especially in terms of relationships, to myself. Who I have my eye on, the amount of interest I have in those around me, the nature of my relationships, or if I'm looking for a relationship. Even my family knows very little about my personal life. I won’t date people who are close with many of my friends for fear of them spreading gossip about me or our relationship. Also, please, please don’t try hooking me up with a close friend of yours (unless she is Keira Knightley)…

I tend to horde the personal information others give me. This information doesn't necessarily have to be obtained through the express meaning of another's words, but is also picked up through the intricacies of another's speech; listen, and it is possible to learn a lot about the fears and desires of others. I do this mostly because I love observing others--trying to figure out how they think. However, ensconcing myself in the information others willingly provide is also a defense mechanism I've honed over the years.

It is very important to maintain good relations with those I know, but there are always people who step over certain boundaries or just flat out don't like you. So I tend to not give these potential enemies information they can use to hurt me, and I store information on these potential enemies that, at least from my perspective, will hurt them most. And yes, if provoked, I will go for the jugular.

This may make me seem like a very calculating, paranoid individual, so I must say that I've not been in any major fight where I have done the above in a very, very long time. I like to believe that I have the foresight to steer myself away from such messy situations.

I genuinely like people, and for all, I hope the best. In an ideal world I wouldn't have to make use of the above process. So, quite simply, this process has become another mechanism I use to stay sane around you all

[idealistichick]

heard about this exact thing tonight when talking to an SLE, my brother. he was telling me about a certain situation in which personal information he told to somebody somehow reached someone that it shouldn't have. he said, "when I say something like that to somebody, I expect them to understand that I'm telling it to them in confidence." then he went on about how his whole system and command of this certain situation (which involved many people) was ruined, because of this one betrayal of information, and how angry it made him (both because of being betrayed that way, and of losing his perfect command of everything.)

do other betas relate? actually, this seems like something ANYONE would value, at least to me; I can't see why you wouldn't? however, it was written in the beta section for a reason, so what exactly is it about this behavior that makes it "beta"? what do other non-beta types think of this?

Me and eliphalet can really relate to this. We tell our other infp friend everything and he basically blurts out stuff about eliphalet's private life. It really gets me worked up because there are just certain things that you shouldn't mention to accquaintances or to anyone outside of our close circle of friends. Also I'm having problems with an ESTp. I thought he was private but apparently he told some mutual friends about this conversation we had and I'm very embarrassed to be around them since I actually opened up about my feelings. Oh well what can you do..

[lefty]

its called reality...welcome.

How does this fit in with Fe vs Fi?

I don't understand. What's hilarious, however, is the suggesstion that Delta loves to blab personal information. Am I in the socionics twilight zone, or something?

[force my hand]

its called reality...welcome.

Coming from you that's just fucking ridiculous.

[Tov]

I have this same problem with my girlfriend where she'll tell people things they do not need be knowin. Sometimes she thinks she's bein nice, but she's just bringin up touchy subjects that remind people of shit and takes away some of my leverage to move around a situation. I also honestly think my girlfriend is a member of the delta quadra. Sometimes it feels like we're from different worlds.

[Minde]

How does this fit in with Fe vs Fi?

I don't understand. What's hilarious, however, is the suggesstion that Delta loves to blab personal information. Am I in the socionics twilight zone, or something?

No kidding. Or that they like to gain power, gang up on people, and viciously tear them apart. Seriously. A few people are forgetting to separate good/evil from type.

Some of the projection going on in this thread is... telling. Not that it's anything new, I guess.


Instead of rancor, however, I think it'd be interesting to go a bit more into how it seems that different types, quadras, temperaments, and whatnot seem to have different ideas of what "private" is. Because, just reading this thread even, one person has one idea of the concept and another person has something else in mind. Perhaps it has to do with weak/sensitive functions?

[Ritella]

I think it'd be interesting to go a bit more into how it seems that different types, quadras, temperaments, and whatnot seem to have different ideas of what "private" is. Because, just reading this thread even, one person has one idea of the concept and another person has something else in mind. Perhaps it has to do with weak/sensitive functions?

I agree with this. I was thinking when I first read this thread that my EIE mom is always divulging private info about me to complete strangers. When I call her out on her behavior, she's always like "what did i say?". I can also think of times when my ESE sister has accused me of "exposing" info about her.
I'd guess this must have more to do with different quadras valuing different info as private. I'm scanning my head for specific instances of the above 2 cases...

[Brilliand]

Perhaps it has to do with weak/sensitive functions?

It seems almost to be the opposite - you protect what you're strong in (ego specifically), and what you're weak in (superego specifically) you try to make so general that it's useless. The last thing you want is to be in control of something you can't understand.

EDIT: Or maybe it's valued vs. unvalued, so that you can agree with your dual (and apply what I said to the vital ring).

[force my hand]

Fair enough. There is such a range of conditions under which conversation takes place that it cannot all be constrained to my generalization. (That said, there is a pathetic amount of generalizing in this thread, much of it demonstrably incorrect.) With the exception of pissing off dipshits like lefty, I am not going to pretend that questionable behaviour is restricted to , as even though it is supposed to be my PoLR, I find it necessary, useful, and at times, enjoyable.

However, I can easily think of an example where such a generalization is applicable: i.e. venting about something under the pretense of , having the listener interpreting it in terms of , and referencing it again in public (or private) under those same terms.

I think is more 'touchy' than when it comes to the public/private divide, but a value judgement is not what I'm getting at here; I'm talking about the nature of each and how Fi mangled by Fe is potentially more offensive than Fe mangle by Fi - the latter likely involving mistaken sympathy or compassion (though there may be negative exceptions).

[misutii]

the system of command is paramount. there's hierarchies of information, hierarchies of people, hierarchies of garbage, hierarchies of trust etc. etc. etc. and they're all built upon each other in a less than sturdy abstract contraption of glue, popsicle sticks, matches, paper, and waste, ready at any moment to blow up in your face.

[Minde]

I agree with this. I was thinking when I first read this thread that my EIE mom is always divulging private info about me to complete strangers. When I call her out on her behavior, she's always like "what did i say?". I can also think of times when my ESE sister has accused me of "exposing" info about her.
I'd guess this must have more to do with different quadras valuing different info as private. I'm scanning my head for specific instances of the above 2 cases...

Yes, you understand what I mean. What's private to you isn't necessarily seen that way by others, and vice versa.

That's what I think would be interesting to discover - what does everybody consider "private"? What are examples of things you all would prefer that people not bring up in public?

It seems almost to be the opposite - you protect what you're strong in (ego specifically), and what you're weak in (superego specifically) you try to make so general that it's useless. The last thing you want is to be in control of something you can't understand.

EDIT: Or maybe it's valued vs. unvalued, so that you can agree with your dual (and apply what I said to the vital ring).

So how would that look in real life?


If the individuals are trusted, I don't mind as much. While sometimes a little scary, because I'm being vulnerable, it can also be very helpful, getting feedback and input from people who care about me. And more than one person means more viewpoints and more possible answers and ideas. If I don't trust some of them, then, no, I don't like it and can find it quite painful.


Nah, you've been fine.

I think is more 'touchy' than when it comes to the public/private divide, but a value judgement is not what I'm getting at here; I'm talking about the nature of each and how Fi mangled by Fe is potentially more offensive than Fe mangle by Fi - the latter likely involving mistaken sympathy or compassion (though there may be negative exceptions).

Uh, yes, I think I agree with you here. Er, maybe...

[iAnnAu]

...
Nah I'm not so sure about that. I don't do things like that. Fe polr types probably would think its more funny, but I don't think that is a delta trait. Would you really see an INFj coming up to you and belittling your footwear? I doubt it. They are often so insecure about their own image they'd not be able to bear it if they did that to you.

For me, I just don't really get the idea of talking about surface level stuff or interacting just to have a good time. I can do that for a while but it just gets boring, because its like I am not doing anything substantial at all.

That being said, I like having beta NF friends because they are better at acclimatizing people. Foreplay has its uses I guess. I just don't like having to do too much buttering up.

Y'know, I can't remember the thread where folks were bashing you about saying the bolded statement above, but now that I've read the statement in the context of the thread, I agree that they seem to be using it out of context to reinterpret your type.
... not that I have any opinion of your type myself ...

[iAnnAu]

on the general thread topic ...
I talk about a lot of stuff about my own life that most people would probably consider private, but I tend to be much more terse about divulging other people's stories. If I am speaking in confidence to someone, I make it known to that person (and frankly, anything told to a group doesn't seem like it's "in confidence" in the first place to me).

If I've learned something about someone, and a mutual friend comes up and starts talking to me about it, I have to make a decision in that circumstance whether my information might include details that the other person would not otherwise be privy to. I can't make hard and fast rules about this, because every situation is different. I'd say I'd tend to be conservative and act like I didn't know as much as I did. But alternately, if someone comes out and asks me about something specifically, I'm not going to lie. I'm just not going to willingly give more than the answer - unless the strict answer would obviously misrepesent the person whose confidence I'm trying to protect.

I have a lot of folks who tell me stuff in confidence. Frankly, I try to let it go in one ear and out the other unless it's clear that I can do something practical for their problem, which is very rarely the case. I don't mind being a sympathetic ear, but I hate trying to turn other people's existential dilemmas over and over in my head - I got enough of my own stuff churning around in there!

I don't like gossip. I like jokes, witty anecdotes, abstract notions, practical consideration/information exchange ... and if someone wants to talk about their problems, I like having figured out that all I need to do is let 'em vent. That makes it easy for me to show compassion/sympathy; otherwise I'm hopeless at it.