ENTj or ESTj?

[Rasputin]

This is my first post on this forum, and the reason I joined is because I'm curious to speak with some people who know probably more than I do about Socionics help me determine my type.

I'm what I would call an expert in MBTI. I've studied it for years and find it a highly accurate model for describing people. Historically, I haven't been the largest fan of Socionics, mainly because there are several things about the system that don't seem to fit well. One is that I've never been able to place myself in one of the four quadras. Second is that I don't see the MBTI J/P distinction a problem. But I didn't come here to discuss that, at least not at first.

For awhile now I've seen myself as ENTj. In MBTI, I'm an ENTJ. In enneagram, I'm 1w9 with 3w4 and 5w6 fixes. I really think I must either be ENTj or ESTj in Socionics, and I'm mainly aiming to determine how the tell the difference between the two, since I'm aware that S/N is not the same in MBTI and Socionics. How would you tease apart S/N in Socionics, and how would you tease apart ENTj/ESTj?

Maybe after we get that nailed down, I'll be able to place myself within a quadra.

I'm not sure what information to give you guys about myself to make this determination. I love theroetical principles, I majored in philosophy in college. I love to construct my own theoretical principles then apply them practically. I've very idealistic. I like to control my environment and get very upset if things are not a certain way or things don't go according to plan. I tend to be pretty pushy and the convincing others that I'm right about something or about having something a certain way.

Maye you guys will have some specific questions to ask to help in this determination.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Morcheeba]

The fact that you say that you can be pushy would usually point to an hidden agenda.

[Beautiful sky]

If you are a 3 in ennegram you are ESTj in Socionics. Give us a VI one picture face forward and one from the side.

S/N is very similar to MBTI, except MBTI couldn't make a valid test to decipher the two beyond a doubt; so a lot of people who take MBTI can score either one.

Socionics says that S N have certain qualities beyond that of mental but also physical hence Visual Identification.

Control over environment is absolute ESTj feature, to regulate the workings of the environment, to assume responsibility over its management. ENTj assumes control in a different way, in a more opportunistic then advantage for efficiency of the working order.

ENTj are less likely to control environment and BOTH more likely to control financial resources. ESTj usually has a very neat way of living as opposed to rather the not so neat way ENTj does; and also, ESTj love cooking, ENTj's don't. Value wise, ENTj's are by far much more conservative in bed...while ESTj's are likely to do what their woman want's them to.

[Morcheeba]

If you are a 3 in ennegram you are ESTj in Socionics.

If I were you, I wouldn't listen to someone who speaks in absolutes

[DirectorAbbie]

Welcome to the16types. You already seem like you have a good . Whether you're an LSE or a LIE, you're in the minority. Unfortunately, I know very few LIEs. I do know several LSEs though, myself included.

Do you plan spontenaity?
Describe your sense of humor.
What is your ideal role in life?
Discuss food.

[Galen]

choo chooooooooo

I really wish we didn't live near the train tracks, they're so loud at night.

[consentingadult]

Not you...he is ESTj; sorry, crazy me...yes the first part about ESTj/ENTj is somewhat correct...ESTj know how food makes them feel, they know what to eat, when they need to shower; ENTj's don't know, they are very hectic in this regard. Both are very romantic...are you, RESPUTIN, romantic?

We should get you your own forum: theoneandonlytype.info, with an alternative domain name estj.info. If you want me too, just register the domain names and I will host a forum for you free of charge. I'll even let you be webmaster and you can go completely ballistic on it. Are you interested?

[consentingadult]

I don't know how to do any tech stuff...oh that's another question RASPUTIN, how are you with technology, especially high technology?

Didn't you read my post? I'll take care of the tech stuff, you can go act out in any way you wish. I'll even make you webmaster of the forum! You know what that means? You'll get to ban people if you don't like them or if they are mean to you! That would be awesome, not?

You claim to be Ne-creative. Think of the possibilities! ESTjs will flock in, you'll have them all to yourself! Come on, this is a once-in-a-lifetime, how can you decline?

[consentingadult]

NO
I don't like to ban people...that's not nice.

Yawn... you'll never get anywhere in life being a pussy like that.

[UDP]

I'm not sure what information to give you guys about myself to make this determination. I love theroetical principles, I majored in philosophy in college. I love to construct my own theoretical principles then apply them practically. I've very idealistic. I like to control my environment and get very upset if things are not a certain way or things don't go according to plan. I tend to be pretty pushy and the convincing others that I'm right about something or about having something a certain way.

It is not "typical" for an LSE to major in philosophy in college.

Being "idealistic" and a focus on "being right" can just be an E1w9 sort of thing.

How do you deal with management/leadership?
Are you more likely to set up plans and delegate things to other people, expecting them to do the work?
Or are you more likely to set up plans and feel personally responsible for carrying them out? Why, etc


And in general, talk about how you view/see/experiences you've had with working with others. That might help. . .


PS: Marista is a bit weird and has her own way of going about typing. So if you haven't figured it out already, she's sort of an unusual person in terms of socionics and also in terms of being a representative of her proclaimed self typing.

[Beautiful sky]

It is not "typical" for an LSE to major in philosophy in college.

Being "idealistic" and a focus on "being right" can just be an E1w9 sort of thing.

How do you deal with management/leadership?
Are you more likely to set up plans and delegate things to other people, expecting them to do the work?
Or are you more likely to set up plans and feel personally responsible for carrying them out? Why, etc


And in general, talk about how you view/see/experiences you've had with working with others. That might help. . .


PS: Marista is a bit weird and has her own way of going about typing. So if you haven't figured it out already, she's sort of an unusual person in terms of socionics and also in terms of being a representative of her proclaimed self typing.

Me, INFj, love all people.
ESTj, also love all people until one gets too far.
Duals because we both love romance so we can be romantic together. They say the wrong thing sometimes without really meaning it and they can be anti-social at times as well.
ESTj may or may not like being boss but don't like managing people. Out of the sense of controlling the environment and making sure everything runs well or as it should.
INFj love to manage people. Both are idealistic because both expect a sense of right fit.
ESTj's love art, philosophy, world affairs, politics, environment, animals, humans (so past socionics literature got a lot wrong about them) etc...
MBTI got a lot wrong about people too.

[consentingadult]

I don't care.
I love all people and value the existence of all humanity; I don't need to get anywhere in specific.

Ah well, I was going to respond, but lets not derail another thread because of silly you.

[Slacker]

It's hard to even read what you write, but this is just flat out wrong.

ESTj, also love all people until one gets too far.

Also,

Where did he go? Why isn't he responding?

You probably scared him off with all the bat-shit insane stuff.

[Beautiful sky]

It's hard to even read what you write, but this is just flat out wrong.



Also,


You probably scared him off with all the bat-shit insane stuff.

They like the human spirit or the human ...what am I trying to say... human condition. I am trying to explain you duality...we both value the same things that's why they are set up together...the Humanist/Humanitarian/Empath with Director/...

[Rasputin]

Heck, I logged back on here, and I have 19 responses! lol This, I wasn't expecting. Maybe we can get some results here, with this many people eager to get into the mix.

I'll try to summarize a repsonse for all since there were so many responses.

I don't go for VI. I don't believe that you can determine a person's persoality based on what they look like. I consider that to be shallow and superficial. There is absolutely no evidence for such a proposition.

I do feel some need to control my environment. I like to have things a certain way, as I said before. I want to make enough money to be comfortable, but I'm not out to "make money". My own self-development is more important to me.

Yes, I did major in philosophy. Though, I have one person telling me that ESTjs's love philosophy and another tellng me it's unusual for ESTj's to major in philosophy. This, in my mind, makes it unclear what it means to be S or N in Socionics.

I hate missing my daily shower. I'll be blunt, I sweat easily. I wish it was never above 65 degrees F outside. If I miss a daily shower, I feel grimy the next day and it generally bothers me throughout the day. I am not a clean-freak, I don't like doing housework, it seems to me there are more important ways to spend one's time. I do like things to be sanitary, though. No placing the phone face-down by the sink where old food and dishes have been sitting, that calls for some Lysol! All the while, there may be stuff strewn about the floor.

I've never been in a professional leadership role, but from my relations with people, I guess I would rather delegate stuff so I don't have to deal with it and make processes more efficient. I hate wasting time, I hate waiting.

I don't care if someone is wierd, I'm not superifical like that. If they have insightful input, I'm happy to speak with them on the subject matter at hand.

I'm a core 1w9, I have a 3w4 image fix, to make sure that is clear.

I relate to being a director while having humanitarian values.

Don't really think I missed anything, feel free to tell me if I did.

[Beautiful sky]

Heck, I logged back on here, and I have 19 responses! lol This, I wasn't expecting. Maybe we can get some results here, with this many people eager to get into the mix.

I'll try to summarize a repsonse for all since there were so many responses.

I don't go for VI. I don't believe that you can determine a person's persoality based on what they look like. I consider that to be shallow and superficial. There is absolutely no evidence for such a proposition.

I do feel some need to control my environment. I like to have things a certain way, as I said before. I want to make enough money to be comfortable, but I'm not out to "make money". My own self-development is more important to me.

Yes, I did major in philosophy. Though, I have one person telling me that ESTjs's love philosophy and another tellng me it's unusual for ESTj's to major in philosophy. This, in my mind, makes it unclear what it means to be S or N in Socionics.

I hate missing my daily shower. I'll be blunt, I sweat easily. I wish it was never above 65 degrees F outside. If I miss a daily shower, I feel grimy the next day and it generally bothers me throughout the day. I am not a clean-freak, I don't like doing housework, it seems to me there are more important ways to spend one's time. I do like things to be sanitary, though. No placing the phone face-down by the sink where old food and dishes have been sitting, that calls for some Lysol! All the while, there may be stuff strewn about the floor.

I've never been in a professional leadership role, but from my relations with people, I guess I would rather delegate stuff so I don't have to deal with it and make processes more efficient. I hate wasting time, I hate waiting.

I don't care if someone is wierd, I'm not superifical like that. If they have insightful input, I'm happy to speak with them on the subject matter at hand.

I'm a core 1w9, I have a 3w4 image fix, to make sure that is clear.

I relate to being a director while having humanitarian values.

Don't really think I missed anything, feel free to tell me if I did.

You indeed are ESTj...emphasis on efficiency, clean, but not a clean freak, neat, don't like wasting time or waiting...excepting of people. Your values alight with mine. INFj's do the cleaning because we really like to clean we like sanitary...come check out my bathroom. LOL

[Rasputin]

I am not particularly romantic, though I can be at times.

I have two windows going right now.

I like high technology to an extent, though I also like nature. I'm neither an outdoors person nor particuarly computer savvy.

I like to cook on occassion. Most times, it takes too much time and effort to cook anything particuarly nice. Though, every once and a while, I enjoy cooking something nice.

[Morcheeba]

I don't get how people can't figure out their own ego elements, but whatever...
I guess a good way to differentiate would be to ask yourself, are you good with details?

[Rasputin]

I believe that philosophy for you may be love of theory combined with further understanding of how things work and what process to take to understand the workings. There are types who already have philosophy in their minds and types who need to take philosophy classes to get philosophy.

Theoretical physicists have philosophy in their mind, you won't catch them reading books on that topic, maybe they will read books on religion.

I'm interested in philsophy because I'm a pretty spiritual person. I'm not into organized religion, but I live from the application of principles.

[Rasputin]

I don't get how people can't figure out their own ego elements, but whatever...
I guess a good way to differentiate would be to ask yourself, are you good with details?

I am good with details, sometimes, it's hard to proceed or multitask because I'm so particular about how something is done. I'm not very observant, though. In MBTI, being detail-oriented and observant pretty much go together. Is this the case in Socionics?

[Beautiful sky]

I'm interested in philsophy because I'm a pretty spiritual person. I'm not into organized religion, but I live from the application of principles.

That's pretty much what I meant to say.

[Rasputin]

That's pretty much what I meant to say.

I really enjoy reading books about spiritual topics.

[Beautiful sky]

I am good with details, sometimes, it's hard to proceed or multitask because I'm so particular about how something is done. I'm not very observant, though. In MBTI, being detail-oriented and observant pretty much go together. Is this the case in Socionics?

What do you mean by observant?

INFj won't read spiritual stuff; we are the embedment of all spirituality within us. Besides, I've read enough books on the topic for the big picture.

[Galen]

I don't go for VI. I don't believe that you can determine a person's persoality based on what they look like. I consider that to be shallow and superficial. There is absolutely no evidence for such a proposition.

This is a tricky subject, so I won't try to convince you that VI is valid. After all, it does seem like an absurd proposition at first, to think that one's appearance is indicative of one's personality. But what matters for VI, I find, is that you need to know what to look for. Personally, I think that it can be used advantageously, but the problem with it is that there is no one set method for doing it. Everybody has their own techniques, so any complete consensus on VI is going to be even rarer than a complete consensus without it.

I do feel some need to control my environment. I like to have things a certain way, as I said before.

Do you mean your immediate physical environment, or a sort of hierarchical one?

I want to make enough money to be comfortable, but I'm not out to "make money". My own self-development is more important to me.

What sort of comfort do you have in mind?

Yes, I did major in philosophy. Though, I have one person telling me that ESTjs's love philosophy and another tellng me it's unusual for ESTj's to major in philosophy. This, in my mind, makes it unclear what it means to be S or N in Socionics.

Liking philosophy has little to do with S or N. However, the kinds of philosophies you are drawn to is probably highly indicative of information element values.

I hate missing my daily shower. I'll be blunt, I sweat easily. I wish it was never above 65 degrees F outside. If I miss a daily shower, I feel grimy the next day and it generally bothers me throughout the day. ... I do like things to be sanitary, though. No placing the phone face-down by the sink where old food and dishes have been sitting, that calls for some Lysol! All the while, there may be stuff strewn about the floor.

This sounds Si valuing to me, an attention to the way physical objects interact with one's self.

I've never been in a professional leadership role, but from my relations with people, I guess I would rather delegate stuff so I don't have to deal with it and make processes more efficient. I hate wasting time, I hate waiting.

Definite Te leading.

[Beautiful sky]

He values Si therefore

[Rasputin]

What do you mean by observant?

I mean what MBTI means by it. In MBTI, Ss find it natural to look observe what is going on in their environment, while Ns find it natural to pay attention to their interpretation of what is going on in their envioronment. I fall into the latter category.

[Galen]

I mean what MBTI means by it. In MBTI, Ss find it natural to look observe what is going on in their environment, while Ns find it natural to pay attention to their interpretation of what is going on in their envioronment. I fall into the latter category.

In socionics, this sounds much more like a j vs p issue. Irrational temperaments, or p, are more attuned to information input, whereas rational/j types are more focused on information synthesis/processing.

[Beautiful sky]

I mean what MBTI means by it. In MBTI, Ss find it natural to look observe what is going on in their environment, while Ns find it natural to pay attention to their interpretation of what is going on in their envioronment. I fall into the latter category.

That's not Socionics important or determinent for S/N...it's one area where it doesn't agree with MBTI.

But, are you a people watcher?

[Beautiful sky]

In socionics, this sounds much more like a j vs p issue. Irrational temperaments, or p, are more attuned to information input, whereas rational/j types are more focused on information synthesis/processing.

You may be right. Because I am a J type and what you mentioned just above went into the filter of another category, great observation.

[Rasputin]

This is a tricky subject, so I won't try to convince you that VI is valid. After all, it does seem like an absurd proposition at first, to think that one's appearance is indicative of one's personality. But what matters for VI, I find, is that you need to know what to look for. Personally, I think that it can be used advantageously, but the problem with it is that there is no one set method for doing it. Everybody has their own techniques, so any complete consensus on VI is going to be even rarer than a complete consensus without it.

I don't think anything can substitute for understanding a person. There's a reason why therapy can often take years.

Do you mean your immediate physical environment, or a sort of hierarchical one?

More often immediate physical environment. Though I am also sensitive to someone trying to control me.

What sort of comfort do you have in mind?

Enough to be able to pay the bills, have money in savings, and buy some things I migh like without worrying about if I'll have enough money for the other things.

Liking philosophy has little to do with S or N. However, the kinds of philosophies you are drawn to is probably highly indicative of information element values.

I am most drawn to philosphy that deals with spirituality and religion.

This sounds Si valuing to me, an attention to the way physical objects interact with one's self.

So, does Si go with ENTj or ESTj?

Definite Te leading.

Because of the delegation thing?

.

[Rasputin]

Si would be secondary to Te in ESTj, right? So, how would Ni differ?

[Beautiful sky]

.

Definite Te leading.

Because of the delegation thing?

No mostly in accumulation of language as related to type, significance of actions and importance and emphasis to order of things. Values, beliefs, understanding to things/ideas/concepts

[Galen]

Si would be secondary to Te in ESTj, right? So, how would Ni differ?

Well Si differs from Ni in that Si is focused on the physical world, specifically with how physical objects interact with each other. Ni, on the other hand, is much more focused on how things/ideas/concepts are inherently connected with other things/ideas/concepts under some larger context. These are super broad descriptions, so I apologize if this isn't all that helpful.

[Beautiful sky]

Si would be secondary to Te in ESTj, right? So, how would Ni differ?

Time sensitivity as it relates to Ni will actually make you want to prepare in advance of time that is necessary; therefore acting in preperation. If something doesn't go as you planned you will not be pleased...Ni dominent know the right time so they don't prepare, they just act according to that time...that's their specialty so they don't worry with regards to their upper hand function, but at the same time Ni worries what will likely result from such an action if something now needs to be done isn't, so will tell people time and again to do a specific task. Your primary function is for efficiency, effectiveness of undertaken project, and how to make something work, not time that is why you feel pressed for time-because of lack of understanding for it's somewhat quality (I can't explain this feature well sorry! a combination of not wasting it and not having enough of it and not really knowing when you've used enough of it once you've emerced yourself in detail).


Each function is a development of a certain part of the brain, novel time connection theory and time...Ni
N types, we don't have a clue what their brain is doing, conjuring up stuff in their head or have actual 6th, 7th and 8th senses....I can say from my shoes that I have 6th; sense of feelings of others; either we make stuff up in our head -as in we sense things we worry about in our heads or using senses that are not recognized, or acting up on feelings produced by imagination that have no connection to the outside world. Technology has not caught up with N types.

Visual, 5 senses processing is Se
Logic -neocortex in the upper regions of the brain is Te
Synthesis between Se and Te is Si
Ethics/ Morals is Fi

Whatever develops well first, in terms of interconnections and functional development, not physical form in an organism gets upper hand at how the person is going to end up. Sequence of genes act on that development.

[Rasputin]

Actures...I am concerned with how ideas and objects relate to each other. How could I think about and read philosophy without thinking of how ideas relate to each other? That part sounds more MBTI.

Maritsa...I agree with pretty much everything you state, here. Would you agree that Se, in Socionics, is more closely tied with the observant quality of S in MBTI, or would having a predominant percieving function in general do this?

[The Greeter]

Why are you drawn to philosophy? And why the spiritual and religious kind in particular?

[Rasputin]

Why are you drawn to philosophy? And why the spiritual and religious kind in particular?

I've very concerned with the right way to live my life. Societal conventions never seems sufficient to tell me that. So, I turned to the study of higher principles on which to base my life.

[Galen]

Actures...I am concerned with how ideas and objects relate to each other. How could I think about and read philosophy without thinking of how ideas relate to each other? That part sounds more MBTI.

Well it seems to me that an Ne valuer would look for connections between philosophies as a secondary act, and would much prefer to examine a philosophy's intrinsic characteristics as a closed set first and foremost.

Maritsa...I agree with pretty much everything you state, here. Would you agree that Se, in Socionics, is more closely tied with the observant quality of S in MBTI, or would having a predominant percieving function in general do this?

I'd have to say that having a leading perceiving function would make one more observant. The difference would just be what exactly the person is perceiving.


Also, may I ask which specific philosophies you are attracted to the most?

[Beautiful sky]

Actures...I am concerned with how ideas and objects relate to each other. How could I think about and read philosophy without thinking of how ideas relate to each other? That part sounds more MBTI.

Maritsa...I agree with pretty much everything you state, here. Would you agree that Se, in Socionics, is more closely tied with the observant quality of S in MBTI, or would having a predominant percieving function in general do this?

Se is S in MBTI I will answer more questions tomorrow. I have to run. Good night.

[Rasputin]

Well it seems to me that an Ne valuer would look for connections between philosophies as a secondary act, and would much prefer to examine a philosophy's intrinsic characteristics as a closed set first and foremost.

In MBTI, I know the functional stacking orders like the back of my hand. What would an Ne valuer be in relation to ENTj and ESTj?

I'd have to say that having a leading perceiving function would make one more observant. The difference would just be what exactly the person is perceiving.

That's an interesting difference with MBTI.

Also, may I ask which specific philosophies you are attracted to the most?

I'm mostly a Buddhist. I've been reading a lot about Zen Buddhism lately. I've also enjoyed reading about Platonism and Neoplatonism, though I don't see them as close to the truth as Buddhism.

.