Delta NFs and Breaking Up - q & a for INFjs and ENFps

[UDP]

I figure I'll make a thread about this because I've been through so many now - one being the dumb young ST who doesn't have access to his emotions, and several as the close friend or relative confidant - both men and women, hetero and non hetero. I've heard the break up calls, the pre break up concerns, the aftermath, the tipping points, all of that. If you have any questions, you can state them here. I don't post here much and I'm not particularly concerned about professing expertise, but I feel like since I have such a specific set of information about this I might as well have some place to talk about it.


The most general pattern for delta NFs (that are interested in a monogamous and "serious relationship", let's say), is that certain cues are met that inspire that they can have a version of the relationship they seem acceptably close to the ideal that they want to share with someone else. There's a sort of trial period where there is scrutinizing between the ideal and how things work, how things are resolved, how attention is given, etc. The older (and wiser, IMO) that the NFs get the less time they linger here when they aren't getting what they ultimately need. Different things accelerate that period, depending on the individual's wants. Decisions are made by reaching conclusions about whether or not this person has a chance at meeting the ultimate goal and how much the possibilities are exhausted for doing so.

I don't think that's a particularly surprising or rare pattern for this type among others, but I have a lot of contextual experiences that impact how things play out. Enneagram and instinctual stackings affect a lot on how things are prioritized, or what attention looks like. The biggest problem is the lopsidedness of intra and interpersonal awareness towards the NFs. The most common source for continued or lingering drama is that the NFs have a heard time measuring or evaluating 'truth' or 'reality' when it comes to people's interactions towards themselves. NFs are better off and more confident when they have learned how to evaluate people's treatment of them in clear ways that they can have conviction about, and have confidence at resolving grey areas rather than letting things fester within them.

If you have anything you wonder about or would like to discuss, you're invited to do so.

[Adam Strange]

@UDP, this is a good start but is very general. Can you be more specific and give detailed examples?

[Rebelondeck]

Delta NFs seem to endlessly search for the greenest pasture, nirvana or their perceptions of some unrealistic ideal while delta STs are rooted in practicality. Many of these NFs seem more intrigued with the pursuit of relationships than they are with actually being in them - even ENFps need to occasionally step away for objective assessments. The most common phrase that I've heard when NFs become disillusioned with relationships is some version of "I don't have the time or energy for this"; however, they start to subconsciously detach themselves long before mouthing such words. Delta STs seem to be good at sensing the subtleties of detachment and will either attempt repairs or look for other relationships; the STs seem to be the first to lose trust while their partners lose interest. The success of the dual relationships seem to revolve around continual adaptations by the Delta STs to provide fresh illusions of Edens.

a.k.a. I/O

[Bertrand]

hey Rebelondeck, can you explain on what basis you've derived those conclusions

[consentingadult]

I figure I'll make a thread about this because I've been through so many now - one being the dumb young ST who doesn't have access to his emotions, and several as the close friend or relative confidant - both men and women, hetero and non hetero. I've heard the break up calls, the pre break up concerns, the aftermath, the tipping points, all of that. If you have any questions, you can state them here. I don't post here much and I'm not particularly concerned about professing expertise, but I feel like since I have such a specific set of information about this I might as well have some place to talk about it.


The most general pattern for delta NFs (that are interested in a monogamous and "serious relationship", let's say), is that certain cues are met that inspire that they can have a version of the relationship they seem acceptably close to the ideal that they want to share with someone else. There's a sort of trial period where there is scrutinizing between the ideal and how things work, how things are resolved, how attention is given, etc. The older (and wiser, IMO) that the NFs get the less time they linger here when they aren't getting what they ultimately need. Different things accelerate that period, depending on the individual's wants. Decisions are made by reaching conclusions about whether or not this person has a chance at meeting the ultimate goal and how much the possibilities are exhausted for doing so.

I don't think that's a particularly surprising or rare pattern for this type among others, but I have a lot of contextual experiences that impact how things play out. Enneagram and instinctual stackings affect a lot on how things are prioritized, or what attention looks like. The biggest problem is the lopsidedness of intra and interpersonal awareness towards the NFs. The most common source for continued or lingering drama is that the NFs have a heard time measuring or evaluating 'truth' or 'reality' when it comes to people's interactions towards themselves. NFs are better off and more confident when they have learned how to evaluate people's treatment of them in clear ways that they can have conviction about, and have confidence at resolving grey areas rather than letting things fester within them.

If you have anything you wonder about or would like to discuss, you're invited to do so.

Delta NFs seem to endlessly search for the greenest pasture, nirvana or their perceptions of some unrealistic ideal while delta STs are rooted in practicality. Many of these NFs seem more intrigued with the pursuit of relationships than they are with actually being in them - even ENFps need to occasionally step away for objective assessments. The most common phrase that I've heard when NFs become disillusioned with relationships is some version of "I don't have the time or energy for this"; however, they start to subconsciously detach themselves long before mouthing such words. Delta STs seem to be good at sensing the subtleties of detachment and will either attempt repairs or look for other relationships; the STs seem to be the first to lose trust while their partners lose interest. The success of the dual relationships seem to revolve around continual adaptations by the Delta STs to provide fresh illusions of Edens.

a.k.a. I/O

My name is Consentingadult and I support these perspectives.

[Rebelondeck]

hey Rebelondeck, can you explain on what basis you've derived those conclusions

Any explanations that I would propose would not likely be accepted by proponents of current theory. Although I agree with Socionics observational classifications, my view of fundamental information handling structures is totally 'hard-science':

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tterns-by-I-O?

I can understand the disconnect with the soft-science approach so I don't expect much concurrence from this site with the ways in which I arrive at my views. Just consider me the heckler (heretic?) in the balcony seats.

a.k.a. I/O

[Lord Pixel]

Here's my thing. I get it, I'm idealistic, it's some unreal ideal that doesn't exist except in my mind. My issue is, I have no clue what a relationship is supposed to look like besides this ideal. In my mind the ideal is what relationships are, anything else is not a "real" relationship to me. When I hear people say the whole "You have unrealistic ideals for relationships." I think "So what is a real relationship? Two people in a house like roommates that occasionally kiss on the mouth and have sex?" Like, what? Is that what people mean and or want?


When it comes to breakups, yea I go through alot of that weighing things against what I really want and if my current relationship is what I want in the future. I check patterns that might occur in the future or habits of the person that won't change and I evaluate if I am ok with them or not. The ideal still exists in my mind and if I love the person I can compromise on aspects of it and recognize 100% passion and romance all the time is unrealsitic, But if someone is being an asshole today, I ask why? And if I cannot find good reason then I think it's part of who they are and in that moment I break up with them unconsciously until I choose a good moment to voice the break up. I think to myself "I don't want to be with that kind of a person." Once that though crosses my mind I've alrady broken up.

I have dated an ILI before that I knew beforehand I should not have dated ( because she had an operation that stopped her ability to have children, and I wanted children). I gave in to my feelings and dated her because of some "connection". Also she did not share my religious beliefs so I also had issue with that, and her age (she was 9 years older than me). But there was "connection" the kind of angsty emo ridden connection I thought I craved. (Type 4 business). But the entire time I dated her, which was a few months actually, I had one foot in and one foot out, but I knew I wouldn't marry this girl, I knew I would eventually break up with her, and everytime she pushed for more permanent closeness (saying I love you, mentioning moving in, mentioning getting her operation reversed) I would feel an intense withdrawal, because I knew I did not want anything permanent with this girl. When she told me "I love you." I literally told her I had to think about it, it was one of the most awkward moments I ever had with a woman. But I could not say it because it would have been leading her on to think that we would both be working on a future together. I realized the more I was with her the more I became miserable. And maybe it was her Fe PoLR that couldn't be sure of my moods, because she didn't seem to pick up on my miserable mood even though I thought it was obvious. It was hard for me to break up with her, because I mean.....telling someone they are unwanted because they can't have children does seem sort of harsh, but also because she was very invested and had made a major move for the relationship, so my guilt was built up quite a bit but I knew I had been letting it get too far.

I broke up with her in the dumbest way I could imagine. We spoke about pets. I knew she did not like dogs, especially little hyper dogs, the exact kind of dog I like. I told her that I would get that kind of dog at some point in my life, and she was trying to figure out how that would fit with her. I showed no compromise implying that I did not consider a future with her. She started getting sad and angry that I spoke about getting that dog without considering her. Then I finally just decided it was time to tell her the truth, I told her I would tell her something the next day. She said she won't be able to sleep if I don't say it now. So I told her I don't see a future between us. The next time i saw her it killed me. She looked so............she looked horrible. She looked like a defeated little girl, and I hated that I was the cause of it, I hear about EII being a healer and all that and I guess it's true because, if she wanted me back in that moment or if she wanted to get physical I don't know, I probably would have given into my urges to kiss her to make everything feel ok. I remember it was at her apartment I was going back to get my slippers I had left, and she came to the door with her head slung down with red eyes like she had been crying and she just handed me my slippers, like a defeated little girl. When I left, I could not just get in my car and drive off and I found away back into her apartment without the keys and asked her if she wanted to talk. She felt like there was nothing to talk about, and I saw her just crying at the door, and I hugged her. She cried in my arms for awhile and then said she thinks I should go. To say I felt guilty was an understatement, I felt like I wished we never met, I wished I never let things get that far, I had wished we just never spoke in the first place. It was horrible. Later though, her Fi I guess kicked in and she realized she needed the same closure I did when I first asked her to talk, we then went over good memories and got some food to eat, and we went our seperate ways peacefully, knowing that we could never really just be friends.

I don't date many people, because usually I know upfront how long it will last or not, on my end at least. This isn't the first either where I knew I should not have dated the person.

[Lord Pixel]

I have a question.

When you broke up with NFs, were any of your reasons type related? Any if they were what were they?

[UDP]

Delta NFs seem to endlessly search for the greenest pasture, nirvana or their perceptions of some unrealistic ideal while delta STs are rooted in practicality.

This isn't really my experience, although, I'm not generally friends with very flighty people in terms of relationships. I do know some, particularly iEEs, that are more as above.

Many of these NFs seem more intrigued with the pursuit of relationships than they are with actually being in them - even ENFps need to occasionally step away for objective assessments. The most common phrase that I've heard when NFs become disillusioned with relationships is some version of "I don't have the time or energy for this"; however, they start to subconsciously detach themselves long before mouthing such words. Delta STs seem to be good at sensing the subtleties of detachment and will either attempt repairs or look for other relationships; the STs seem to be the first to lose trust while their partners lose interest. The success of the dual relationships seem to revolve around continual adaptations by the Delta STs to provide fresh illusions of Edens.

a.k.a. I/O

I can most confirm that when delta NFS seriously start voicing concerns about things it's because they've exhausted whatever their allotment of caring about things has been. Delta NF relational fights are generally about trying to get someone to 'wake up' and show interest in them how they want to or learn things that they need to change to still pursue that potential or their vision of things, rather than anything else. At least the ones I know that have been significantly vested in relationships. Hope is a primary currency for them.

[UDP]

Here's my thing. I get it, I'm idealistic, it's some unreal ideal that doesn't exist except in my mind. My issue is, I have no clue what a relationship is supposed to look like besides this ideal. In my mind the ideal is what relationships are, anything else is not a "real" relationship to me. When I hear people say the whole "You have unrealistic ideals for relationships." I think "So what is a real relationship? Two people in a house like roommates that occasionally kiss on the mouth and have sex?" Like, what? Is that what people mean and or want?

I think this is one of the best set of words about it, particularly "I have no clue what a relationship is supposed to look like besides this ideal".

There is a sense of betrayal of something important to the delta NFs in this sense, and I see their uneasiness about it as related to Se and also the phrase putting the card before the horse ; of course things must be an ideal otherwise me feelings aren't justified. I think they fool themselves the most there and are basically most immature about that part of the process, and don't want to deal with the responsibility of having to sort out whether or not their investments are wise, appropriate, warranted, or actually being good. The more mature the NF, and especially over time, the less they avoid those kind of evaluations.

But I have sympathy for it, to be honest. A lot of my time spent with the NFs in these situations is repetition and confirmation that, yes, there are very few people who are like them, who are the way they are about things, who prioritize and invest the same degree, who have or use the same kinds of ideals - or especially have the same kind of dilemma as at the start of this post.

It's important for delta NFs to realize there is not only a binary yes or no about things in terms of how THE WORLD is about relationships, and rather than expecting everyone else to just be like them in that sense, it should be an earnest evaluation to see if other people can operate to their own standards, rather than hoping for it and crying about it after the fact that they didn't do due diligence before the invested their hopes and dreams and futures into something that never had a chance.

I don't date many people, because usually I know upfront how long it will last or not, on my end at least. This isn't the first either where I knew I should not have dated the person.

Yeah.

[UDP]

I have a question.

When you broke up with NFs, were any of your reasons type related? Any if they were what were they?

My first ever young person (teen) 'relationship' was with a EIE, and that ended because of a lot of young people things. It's funny, reconnecting a few years later, we could barely stand each others presence (She was such a pushy Fe person then, and I wasn't having it), yet we still hold a great sense of respect to each other, haha.


In my most substantial delta NF relationship, in reality I guess I would say no, it wasn't 'type relate' why it ended. Although the problems did come out in typical ST being emotionally dumb. There was a difference in rationality, and some elements of communication, but they honestly weren't that massive. The biggest thing was experience, for both of us. The most prominent factor was probably me not knowing what I wanted or knowing how to pursue or invest in a long term relationship, at that time. I didn't know myself well enough - and I would say that isn't particularly a type related thing. I think we, then and now even, got along very well in terms of socionics, the comfort level and shared values was never in question. I learned a great deal from that situation, and even more from being out of it and still being friends with her to this day.

I've since talked her through 2-3 SERIOUS breakups, and it's been very interesting being on both sides of the story. Comparing what happened as the bf and what she was thinking as an outsider. I've more so been the bff and confidant though, in other situations.

I don't think every delta ST wants the same thing nor every NF, but I know in general that delta NFs in their idealized view of what they want fits very well with what I want, in the sense of a serious, enduring relationship.

[Lord Pixel]

I think this is one of the best set of words about it, particularly "I have no clue what a relationship is supposed to look like besides this ideal".

There is a sense of betrayal of something important to the delta NFs in this sense, and I see their uneasiness about it as related to Se and also the phrase putting the card before the horse ; of course things must be an ideal otherwise me feelings aren't justified. I think they fool themselves the most there and are basically most immature about that part of the process, and don't want to deal with the responsibility of having to sort out whether or not their investments are wise, appropriate, warranted, or actually being good. The more mature the NF, and especially over time, the less they avoid those kind of evaluations.

But I have sympathy for it, to be honest. A lot of my time spent with the NFs in these situations is repetition and confirmation that, yes, there are very few people who are like them, who are the way they are about things, who prioritize and invest the same degree, who have or use the same kinds of ideals - or especially have the same kind of dilemma as at the start of this post.

It's important for delta NFs to realize there is not only a binary yes or no about things in terms of how THE WORLD is about relationships, and rather than expecting everyone else to just be like them in that sense, it should be an earnest evaluation to see if other people can operate to their own standards, rather than hoping for it and crying about it after the fact that they didn't do due diligence before the invested their hopes and dreams and futures into something that never had a chance.




Yeah.

So you mean like they look at someone and dream up some version of them and don't really sort out whether their dream version of the person is based in reality? Then yea, guilty as charged.

And I mean, how is THE WORLD about relationships anyway. You eat, sleep, and sex or what? I feel like it's some club I'm not apart of, the idealism is embedded to the point of being completely blind by it it seems because everytime people talk about idk not idealism or realstic expectations I just think of a lower level of idealism or a death of idealism, I don't really know what they mean. perhaps yall just really mean, don't have too many expectations and just take the process as it comes?

I

it should be an earnest evaluation to see if other people can operate to their own standards,

Yea I agree, when young you want to believe all the things you imagine over what is real. But at the same time, you can do this and if you leave at the first sign that someone doesn't line up, you think that's not a fair chance and so you keep trying. And then perhaps cry that it never happened because you couldn't see that it was completely impossible because writing off people like that feels bad. So I do say it takes some grit and more respect of what you want than try to accommodate and give fair chances to people who aren't what you want in the end.

I also do the reverse, I don't date some girls because upfront they seem to not match up with what I want, but I sense that maybe I am being too picky and they could be what I want. Either way I go with what I see upfront in those scenarios.

EDIT:

Maybe when you said the world is binary about relationships, you mean either the person is what you want or not, no what ifs about it. Is that right?

[Adam Strange]

So you mean like they look at someone and dream up some version of them and don't really sort out whether their dream version of the person is based in reality? Then yea, guilty as charged.

And I mean, how is THE WORLD about relationships anyway. You eat, sleep, and sex or what? I feel like it's some club I'm not apart of, the idealism is embedded to the point of being completely blind by it it seems because everytime people talk about idk not idealism or realstic expectations I just think of a lower level of idealism or a death of idealism, I don't really know what they mean. perhaps yall just really mean, don't have too many expectations and just take the process as it comes?

I work with a female EII who is divorcing her SLI (?) husband. She and I have talked extensively about her divorce and she's shared a lot of what she feels went wrong.
She grew up with a taciturn and my-way-or-the-highway, John Wayne type of father who basically took care of the family farm in Alabama and didn't suffer fools gladly. He did what he said he'd do and didn't try to be nice to people he disagreed with. She clearly idolized him, and when she eventually met a guy with Delta values, she jumped into marriage with him.

She said, in retrospect, that there were lots of warning signs that he was not the guy she thought he was. He had a trucking company "up North" and she told him she wanted to move back to Alabama to be near her family and he assured her he'd do that, but that never happened. She wanted to save for retirement, but he spent all their spare cash on junk antiques which turned out to be pretty much valueless, so they have no retirement. He didn't take care of himself and is now on early disability while she's got a good job, and the result is that she will have to pay him alimony when they divorce.
She was in tears and shaking with anger when she said it wasn't fair. It wasn't fair that she worked hard while he did whatever he wanted and now she has to support him. She said her father would never have done something like that, and he'd be so angry with her ex-husband.

To me, this is a tragedy, but one thing is clear; she idolizes her father and she idolized her ex-husband for many years and was unable or unwilling to see things as they really were.

Quite frankly, I can't blame her. This idolization of a mate might be a characteristic of Positivists, since I did the same thing in my own marriage. Which is a good reason to partner with a Dual who's actually on your side and able to see things that you don't. Lol.

[Rebelondeck]

This isn't really my experience, although, I'm not generally friends with very flighty people in terms of relationships. I do know some, particularly iEEs, that are more as above......

I would agree that more than a few IEEs can be very flighty and chase butterflies; whereas some EIIs seem to pursue and preach some rather impractical ideals in a holier-than-thou sort of way. I've seen EIIs totally isolate themselves from their less-than-ideal partners over what I would consider largely disagreements on theories or what-ifs......

a.k.a. I/O

[Rebelondeck]

.........he assured her he'd do that, but that never happened. She wanted to save for retirement, but he spent all their spare cash on junk antiques which turned out to be pretty much valueless, so they have no retirement. He didn't take care of himself....

This is so unlike any SLI that I've known......

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

This is so unlike any SLI that I've known......

a.k.a. I/O

Yeah, I know.

But, the appreciation for old antiques fits SLI's, as does the profession of truck driver (SLI's like to be able to get out of town on a moment's notice to avoid unpleasantness - they are the original Artful Dodgers), and selfishly misleading her about his real intentions fits (SLI's do not talk about their resources, which is why IEE's are so forwardly, persistently, "at" them), and making sure that he is supported while lazing around the house without a job also fits, but the disregard for his health does not, and ending up flat broke does not. Unless he wasn't planning on her ever divorcing him, in which case it does fit. He steadfastly refused to go to marriage counseling, so I think he was planning on not changing anything from the way he had arranged things. And as it is, he's looking at eight years of alimony payments from her, so he still kind of wins.

Still, I could be wrong about the guy's type. I only saw a picture of him. But he looks SLI to me.

[Rebelondeck]

@Adam Strange I equate antiques/rustic more with some SEI and various Eps - SLIs are more whatever works for the job and wouldn't care. I've known SLEs who could be described as Artful Dodgers, selfishly misleading; not planning on changing, and not mind taking from others. The three types can do their fair share of not being productive but most SLIs I've known certainly wouldn't feel good about being dependent........

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange I equate antiques/rustic more with some SEI and various Eps - SLIs are more whatever works for the job and wouldn't care. I've known SLEs who could be described as Artful Dodgers, selfishly misleading; not planning on changing, and not mind taking from others. The three types can do their fair share of not being productive but most SLIs I've known certainly wouldn't feel good about being dependent........

a.k.a. I/O

Good point. I don't think he's SLE, but he might be SEI. I don't really have a good sense of what male SEI's look like.

It took me a while of staring at his picture before SLI came to mind, so perhaps I'm seeing something that is only peripherally characteristic of SLI's.

[Lord Pixel]

I work with a female EII who is divorcing her SLI husband. She and I have talked extensively about her divorce and she's shared a lot of what she feels went wrong.
She grew up with a taciturn and my-way-or-the-highway, John Wayne type of father who basically took care of the family farm in Alabama and didn't suffer fools gladly. He did what he said he'd do, and didn't try to be nice to people he disagreed with. She clearly idolized him, and when she eventually met a guy with Delta values, she jumped into marriage with him.

She said, in retrospect, that there were lots of warning signs that he was not the guy she thought he was. He had a trucking company "up North" and she told him she wanted to move back to Alabama to be near her family and he assured her he'd do that, but that never happened. She wanted to save for retirement, but he spent all their spare cash on junk antiques which turned out to be pretty much valueless, so they have no retirement. He didn't take care of himself and is now on early disability while she's got a good job, and the result is that she will have to pay him alimony when they divorce.
She was in tears and shaking with anger when she said it wasn't fair. It wasn't fair that she worked hard while he did whatever he wanted and now she has to support him. She said her father would never have done something like that, and he'd be so angry with her ex-husband.

To me, this is a tragedy, but one thing is clear; she idolizes her father and she idolized her ex-husband for many years and was unable or unwilling to see things as they really were.

Quite frankly, I can't blame her. This idolization might be a characteristic of Positivists, since I did the same thing in my own marriage. Which is a good reason to partner with a Dual who's actually on your side and able to see things that you don't. Lol.

Haha do you know my dad?! Lol except he wasn't mean to people who disagreed with him. he was aggressive towards his kids but not people. Father is a type E1 so God bless him and his high standards for his children that we could not live up to lol. He has mellowed out over the years though.


And yeaaaaa this sounds very EII to me and my experience, you really want to believe it will work in the face of all the signs. That squeaky clean image of the person you want them to be. I guess accepting reality is harder, I guess that's the nature of Se PoLR. So extensive research of this person would be the solution? Or just an extended dating period to be sure you grasp who they truly are?


And some signs seem too small up front until you see the whole story unfold behind them. LSE girl I worked with asked me to get something for her, and I felt like it was something she could get herself easily so I was confused why she asked me to get it for her, she said why not? I felt like she was trying to control me and a relationship with her would end up being her making demands on me just because she can and I don't want that. I felt that but thought maybe I'm wrong, so idk how much you should follow the signs or not.