Deltas -- how do you take criticism?

[jewels]

well? not well? Are some situations worse than others? I'm curious.

[Cyrano]

well? not well? Are some situations worse than others? I'm curious.

Was this directed at me!!!!!

[jewels]

Was this directed at me!!!!!

lol not at all. Did I miss something?

I'm curious about this because I've been thinking I may be overly sensitive to criticism, especially when I've done my best at something. (Not talking about the forum, but real life situations)

edit: oh duh, lol. just got the joke

[UDP]

Delta NFs don't like criticism. I don't really care what anyone says, they just don't. Suggestions on how to do things better, sure. But saying "no, you're wrong, and this is why" often doesn't go over well. IEEs, and EIIs, too. Perhaps professionally they can do better, but even t hen, I know they don't like it.

Nota Bene: If you criticize a delta NF on "how they feel" or "tell them how to feel", then, you're going down a path you don't want to go down. Barking up the wrong tree. Going up the creek without a paddle. Don't do it. Ever. It's not going to be good for you or the NF. Especially Fi dominant people, (and perhaps even Fe dominant people, too). Just take it for granted that it is not your place to tell them 'how to feel'. I'm not sure if it would be worse as another F type telling them how to feel, or as a T type. But just don't. Again, facts and reasons and suggestions, sure, but telling somebody how to feel is not going to work. Or things that even resemble that - just avoid them.

Delta STs, it varies. I don't like criticism that is primarily based on making somebody feel better by putting me down, or someone arbitrarily challenging me. Real constructive criticism is valued. Pointless criticism I generally shrug off and it just goes into ("Yeah go fuck yourself") auto response. I think, actually, I react strongest to ambiguous criticism, where I cannot really tell what somebody is saying. Especially if it is such a kind that I can't even tell if I should put time into trying to understand somebody and what they mean, or, if doing such would be a waste of time, and the person is just being a waste of time. I enjoy greatly direct criticism - here, this is what I think, and why. I prefer this very much to subtle hints and suggestions that leave me wondering about your meaning or motivations.

I've never really run into any things with SLIs so I don't know based on experience. They seem a bit less sensitive than the NFs.

[tereg]

I don't naturally take criticism well. My natural and initial reaction is to interpret criticism as a statement about my character. That I have failed somehow. It hurts in a way that is hard to explain, like almost something irrecoverable or irreconcilable. I'm not angry at the person issuing it, I'm more angry at myself for allowing something like that to happen.

But, I know better. I know what criticism is meant for, I know what they're doing when they do it. After the initial pain, I start to think rationally about it and I try to think of it as an opportunity to learn something.

[Slacker]

Criticism is painful, no matter who gives it, no matter what it's about, and no matter whether it's right or not. Though it is worst if it's right.

[tereg]

Nota Bene: If you criticize a delta NF on "how they feel" or "tell them how to feel", then, you're going down a path you don't want to go down. Barking up the wrong tree. Going up the creek without a paddle. Don't do it. Ever. It's not going to be good for you or the NF. Especially Fi dominant people, (and perhaps even Fe dominant people, too). Just take it for granted that it is not your place to tell them 'how to feel'. I'm not sure if it would be worse as another F type telling them how to feel, or as a T type. But just don't. Again, facts and reasons and suggestions, sure, but telling somebody how to feel is not going to work. Or things that even resemble that - just avoid them.

I wouldn't necessarily say that taking that path isn't the right path to take. I'll try to explain. It's a question that I when I get I desperately want to answer, but I find way more often than not unable to explain verbally. It's not that I don't expect the question, or it takes me off guard, but it does seem like in a way that I'm being put on the spot and I just freeze. So, when I get the question and I can't answer the question, and I look as though I have a 2-ton anvil on my shoulders, it's not because I don't want to answer the question, it's because I don't know how to answer the question.

[tereg]

Criticism is painful, no matter who gives it, no matter what it's about, and no matter whether it's right or not. Though it is worst if it's right.

Yeah, that is an important and truthful point.

[UDP]

I wouldn't necessarily say that taking that path isn't the right path to take. I'll try to explain. It's a question that I when I get I desperately want to answer, but I find way more often than not unable to explain verbally. It's not that I don't expect the question, or it takes me off guard, but it does seem like in a way that I'm being put on the spot and I just freeze. So, when I get the question and I can't answer the question, and I look as though I have a 2-ton anvil on my shoulders, it's not because I don't want to answer the question, it's because I don't know how to answer the question.

If you 'can't answer the question', that's one thing.
I have witnessed a decent number of examples where Fi ego people, although perhaps more so Fi dominants, have been angry and visibly upset that they were (in their minds) being challenged. I'm not saying that Fi people are unable to take criticism about feelings or their opinion of other people, but it seems talking about the reasoning is much better than actually suggesting their feelings, in and of themselves, are 'wrong'. That's something that is probably not a good thing to do with anybody, but, I've seen particular cases where it's not been a good thing to do so with a person with very strong Fi.

Or perhaps something like a haphazard remark about something they take seriously. I'm that way, when it comes to productivity related things, or decision making. Someone comes along and makes a criticism about something they don't really know everything about.

[Cyrano]

lol not at all. Did I miss something?

I'm curious about this because I've been thinking I may be overly sensitive to criticism, especially when I've done my best at something. (Not talking about the forum, but real life situations)

edit: oh duh, lol. just got the joke

:wink:

[tereg]

If you 'can't answer the question', that's one thing.
I have witnessed a decent number of examples where Fi ego people, although perhaps more so Fi dominants, have been angry and visibly upset that they were (in their minds) being challenged. I'm not saying that Fi people are unable to take criticism about feelings or their opinion of other people, but it seems talking about the reasoning is much better than actually suggesting their feelings, in and of themselves, are 'wrong'. That's something that is probably not a good thing to do with anybody, but, I've seen particular cases where it's not been a good thing to do so with a person with very strong Fi.

What I'm saying is that I can come across as though I'm visibly upset when I get the question. I'm pretty sure I'm understanding what you're saying though. It's kind of hard to explain, but there are times when I'll get the question, even anticipated it was coming, and it will still feel "annoying" to me. It feels that way for multiple reasons though. A significant portion is that I can't answer the question, which I know is going to be an unsatisfying answer. Another reason is that I know that because I can't answer it, I will be asked it again until I can answer it and therefore becomes an anticipated cascade of being faced with the same question until I can answer it which can become laborious and annoying if I continually find myself unable to answer it. Another reason is closer to the reason you've stated which is that we know you're right, we know you've hit on something truthful, and we get it and understand it yet there's a feeling of "I just want to get through this so that I can move on and try to make this situation right" sort of feeling which freezes someone like me from actually being able to say anything.

[tiny_dancer]

It depends what kind of criticism. I think I handle it better than most people, although I'll never be able to stop my visible emotional reaction. As much as I would like to hide that, it's not gonna happen. At least I take criticism into account and try to work on it. Probably the most depressing criticism is something I have no power to change.

But it's probably more difficult for NFs.. all NFs or just delta??... in some ways because we're already acutely aware of our shortcomings and really don't need anyone to tell us what they are. Then it just becomes an incessant reminder that we're not perfect enough for you.

Blah. No buried childhood issues here.

[jewels]

I really identify w/ the responses so far.

In particular, I find I react worst to criticism that is subjective. It's hard for me to objectively evaluate myself, and I am inclined to believe just about anything someone tells me, as I can see the billion shades of gray (and easily take their perspective). There is some truth in everything, including even ridiculous criticism.

For instance, a guy said my shoes were ugly once. I tried to ignore it but found myself trying to figure out (objectively) if they were actually ugly. My friends all said they weren't, but I even went online to a shopping site to see if there were negative comments. Turned out most people liked the shoes fine (they were a pretty basic shoe style) and the guy was just trying to use some strange insult-dating technique. But I think why it stings so much is I will quickly extend it from the one example (ugly shoes) to a broader category (say my fashion sense in general). So I'll go from "huh?" to "OMG I am dressing myself like a bag woman who lives on the street and I didn't even know it! How did I not realize this? I suck!"

When I do know something is correct and someone challenges me/criticizes me, I tend to appear more calm/controlled (even if a bit angry) and argue directly with them. I might take slight offense, but I won't question it nearly as much.

But for instance, if I give a speech and two people out of ten say it was too basic, or "generic" or something, then I get really upset about that. I'll question what material I put into it, and may extend that to other aspects until "omg I never realized I'm completely missing the boat on everything here! oh no!!" When it may be just a couple of people who didn't connect w/ what I was saying, but I don't see it that way at all.

I guess I do take things very personally. I do better in objective situations w/ constructive criticism, yet all of my interests are pretty subjective things (writing, art, people things, etc.)

This comment from Tereg I related to also "I don't naturally take criticism well. My natural and initial reaction is to interpret criticism as a statement about my character. That I have failed somehow. It hurts in a way that is hard to explain, like almost something irrecoverable or irreconcilable. I'm not angry at the person issuing it, I'm more angry at myself for allowing something like that to happen."

I'm now wondering about compliments...I'm more critical of compliments/tend to be more objective about them. I'll really think about whether a compliment is true -- like, "oh thanks for saying my hair is nice, but I really need to get it cut," or whatever. Yet with criticism, the positive side doesn't really jump out at me.

[tereg]

I did want to add a note that I left off of my original post, which touches on this idea of being objective. When somebody criticizes me, I tend to trust what they say because I don't trust myself to be objective about myself, at least initially. I fall under this belief that I see myself with tinted and biased shades and because of that others can (generally speaking) objectively see what I am or who I am and therefore are more correct when they point out something about me since I can't really objectively evaluate certain aspects of myself.

[tereg]

I'm now wondering about compliments...I'm more critical of compliments/tend to be more objective about them. I'll really think about whether a compliment is true -- like, "oh thanks for saying my hair is nice, but I really need to get it cut," or whatever. Yet with criticism, the positive side doesn't really jump out at me.

As far as compliments go, I find this to be a delicate issue as well for me. It's something that has gotten me carried away when I was younger. I'd let the compliments get to my head and then crash back to earth when I realized what I had done. The most embarrassing moments of my lifetime have stemmed from letting compliments or positive things that people say about me get to my head and then doing something embarrassing later.

So, what I do to counteract this natural tendency is I will be respectful, and I will try to be really mindful of the balance of emotion when I receive it. I try to be genuinely thankful for it and at the same time, subdued and humble about it.

Success (and the compliments that come with it) is something that I find that I'm unsure I can handle properly. I wanted to write a blog entry about this, and perhaps I still will, but, in a strange way, I fear success as much as I fear failure, because I fear what comes behind success and how I don't really trust that I can handle what comes with it.

[Slacker]

I'm sometimes kind of skeptical of people's motivations when they compliment me.

[UDP]

I'm sometimes kind of skeptical of people's motivations when they compliment me.

Yeah, me too. I've seen this in EIIs as well.
Perhaps it's better if delta people don't compliment or criticize each other, and just show goodness by consideration and time spent, and make constructive suggestions when things are bad

[UDP]

although, at the same time, I really do value being able to seriously talk about problems with delta people. In spite of all this stuff about criticism, really, that is something I value most about deltas. I feel like I can be direct and upfront with problems the most with delta people, as they seem to best understand my motivations. Gamma is a reasonably close second.

[Lobo]

well? not well? Are some situations worse than others? I'm curious.

I used to play the violin in college and there were these special sessions where everyone from the string orchestra had to play solos in front of everyone and the professors. After you played, you were critiqued. You could have been practicing your piece for hours on end, and because of nervousness, it appeared as if you just started playing it... It was frustrating, especially when you were critiqued in sections that sounded great when you were practicing, but your hand was shaking so much that it went off tune at the session. One of the things I learned from that experience was to not take criticism personally (or at least try hard to ), even when you were critiqued on intonation, which is a very embarrassing thing to get grilled on. There was one violin professor who really seemed to get a kick out of criticizing and throwing sarcastic/ridicule comments of the student's playing, the kind that could make someone potentially cry afterwards. For some reason he never said anything like that to me, then again, that kind of sarcastic stuff doesn't affect me much, it just annoys me.

[jewels]

I used to play the violin in college and there were these special sessions where everyone from the string orchestra had to play solos in front of everyone and the professors. After you played, you were critiqued. You could have been practicing your piece for hours on end, and because of nervousness, it appeared as if you just started playing it... It was frustrating, especially when you were critiqued in sections that sounded great when you were practicing, but your hand was shaking so much that it went off tune at the session. One of the things I learned from that experience was to not take criticism personally (or at least try hard to ), even when you were critiqued on intonation, which is a very embarrassing thing to get grilled on. There was one violin professor who really seemed to get a kick out of criticizing and throwing sarcastic/ridicule comments of the student's playing, the kind that could make someone potentially cry afterwards. For some reason he never said anything like that to me, then again, that kind of sarcastic stuff doesn't affect me much, it just annoys me.

Wow. Well at least you knew you played the piece well (in private anyway) and it was just nerves throwing it off. Must have been frustrating to know that and not have them realize that. Seems a bit silly of them to expect everyone to play perfectly in a situation like that. Sheesh. Even a performance would probably be less stressful than that situation.

I never understood teachers like that who would say such awful things to kids. I luckily avoided that, but I did have a teacher make a girl cry in my acting class and wow it made me mad. She was new to acting (and I remembered when I didn't have any experience I was super sensitive to criticism), so I called him out on it in front of the whole class just to try to embarass the teacher and it did make him uncomfortable (I was basically asking stupid questions about his "process" in order to make my very obvious point). Teachers like that don't realize they could be damaging the rest of a young person's life. But some teachers can be pretty damaged themselves I guess.

[Danielle]

Well in the past I have taken it really, really badly, and that's what I was going to say, but it actually hasn't been so bad lately. I have to say that Te-based criticism is best for me, when things are explained and one things leads logically to another. That kind of criticism/solution I seem to take alright. It doesn't feel personal. Although no matter what, I still feel this pang when I am criticized. I try not to cry anymore, lol.

[Lobo]

Wow. Well at least you knew you played the piece well (in private anyway) and it was just nerves throwing it off. Must have been frustrating to know that and not have them realize that. Seems a bit silly of them to expect everyone to play perfectly in a situation like that. Sheesh. Even a performance would probably be less stressful than that situation.

I never understood teachers like that who would say such awful things to kids. I luckily avoided that, but I did have a teacher make a girl cry in my acting class and wow it made me mad. She was new to acting (and I remembered when I didn't have any experience I was super sensitive to criticism), so I called him out on it in front of the whole class just to try to embarass the teacher and it did make him uncomfortable (I was basically asking stupid questions about his "process" in order to make my very obvious point). Teachers like that don't realize they could be damaging the rest of a young person's life. But some teachers can be pretty damaged themselves I guess.

Yeah, I agree. I think there's a fine line between being too rough and really pushing someone to be better. Tough love has worked on me in some situations, but in others it made me bitter looking back, even after a long time. I definitely have more of an issue with the way someone goes about criticizing, as in tone, and general attitude.

[Minde]

I often don't take criticism well. Initially, anyway. It can be very painful. I might resist, turn it back, get angry, cry, etc. But if I can step back from the situation, and perhaps get another or more opinions, it often can take good effect. I take criticism very seriously and personally.

However, I'd rather be corrected and then be right than not be corrected and continue being wrong. The first way can be very unpleasant at the time, but the second way has the potential to be much worse in the long run.

It really, really helps, though, when I think the person criticizing, or correcting, knows what they're talking about. If I trust them I'll be much more likely to take things more calmly, though it still might hurt. Tears are potentially more likely than anger. If I sense that they're incompetent in the area they're trying to address, while I still might get paranoid about it (a la jewels), I'll put up more resistance and perhaps even shut them out completely. Perhaps that is similar to UDP's experience with telling Fi-egos how to feel.

I think how one reacts to criticism has to do with maturity and general self-confidence in part. Maturity means taking criticism with openness and grace, without allowing emotions to overwhelm me and cloud my judgement. Self-confidence comes both from understanding how my inherent worth relates to my abilities/actions and having a good grasp on what's going on with whatever the situation is.

Looking at what I just wrote, I'd have to say that I react rather immaturely sometimes. Often, even. As time passes, though, I have grown and continue to grow in confidence. And hopefully in maturity, too.

[Lobo]

Well in the past I have taken it really, really badly, and that's what I was going to say, but it actually hasn't been so bad lately. I have to say that Te-based criticism is best for me, when things are explained and one things leads logically to another. That kind of criticism/solution I seem to take alright. It doesn't feel personal. Although no matter what, I still feel this pang when I am criticized. I try not to cry anymore, lol.

What kind of criticism makes you cry? Like an example.

[Mattie]

I do take criticism personally, and I know I do so I try and stop that "dazed" feeling that comes when I receive it, but I just can't. It's like how tereg said, I initially take it as an insult to my character, like, I'm flawed and it's out in the open for people to peck at. I tend to go the route that the other person isn't taking in account enough information, but this might be because I'm thinking of these moments from my NeTi best friend. I don't think I become angry, but usually a universal sign of me not being okay (like, red alarms go off in my friend's minds) is when I lack any sort of emotion in my voice and I'm not expressive at all, and that happens. I usually try to accept part of the criticism but it's hard for me to be seen as completely wrong or at fault in public, I want to take what has been said, retreat for a little, then come back after thinking about it saying "Yeah, I've messed up." or "I've been doing this the wrong way." In my head, I usually feel like the other person is misguided because they aren't taking in my perspective, just taking what they see from me and running it through their logic.

For some reason, I'm also rather dismissive of compliments. I think I only feel good about them from certain people, but when others are like "Oh, you look great!" and I feel like crap, I can't really believe that I look great. I notice that compliments come when I feel like I'm the least deserving of them, so I wonder why I got the compliments. I also don't care for compliments from people who compliment others often. I have an acquaintance who tells, like, 3 people per social gathering they look beautiful and what do they do with whatever, and while the sentiment is nice, I can't possibly feel like the words are completely genuine when she says them to other people so often. I feel kinda bitchy feeling that way, but it just don't appeal to me.

[Danielle]

What kind of criticism makes you cry? Like an example.

Here is a good example.

Criticism that I interpret as being a personal rejection in some way. Especially because I don't always know I have a personal investment in it until the criticism has been offered.

Criticism as a result of the person misunderstanding me can make me cry, because they misunderstood me and then made a judgment about me or my abilities based on that misunderstanding.

So hmm, say for instance I have been having a conversation with a guy, laughing and generally having a good conversation. But there's nothing romantic, I'm just trying to be friendly (something I'm already sensitive about). Now suppose someone else says that I looked silly flirting with a guy who wasn't interested. That might make me cry, because I wasn't flirting with him, but I have been judged as a silly flirt (besides now I have a feeling of rejection). Even though the person is wrong, I'd be most concerned with the character judgment and trying to defend my character. But the tears would come from the sense of rejection and being misunderstood yet again.

That specific thing has not happened to me but I have a bad memory for specific examples of things unless it just happened. And I did just recently experience criticism that made me cry but certainly wasn't meant to harm.

[lomez]

well? not well? Are some situations worse than others? I'm curious.

I pretend like it doesn't bother me and then I obsess about it and play it over and over again in my head. If somebody were to criticize me, I'd probably respond by making some sarcastic, indifferent remark or just shrug. I'd then proceed to think about it for the rest of the day. So I guess I don't take it very well.

[Gilly]

Ahahaha UDP is such a ******.

[jewels]

Ahahaha UDP is such a ******.

this is a thread about Deltas not taking criticsm well, remember? Please don't post critical things of Deltas in my thread about Deltas being criticized Thanks.

[force my hand]

Not surprisingly, I'm going to rely on the safeguard of context: who's saying what, when.

In terms of work, criticism rarely phases me and I focus on the message of improvement. I go beyond what's required and do my work well, so if there's a failing it's usually on account of misunderstanding. If it's a legitimate fuckup, then I have no choice but to take responsibility - in that sense, my lack of success far outweighs someone pointing it out. I've also noticed that people will rarely try to bust my balls in this environment; if it happens, it's usually the resident asshole that no one can stand.

It's in personal situations that the effect of criticism is much more variable. Someone making light of my appearence can raise my ire. Analyzing how I act in larger groups of people - positive or negative - will often cause me to want to shut down. Criticising my intelligence or ability to reason? No effect whatsoever, owing to my belief that most people are shitty thinkers. Criticism in one-on-one relationships used to be killer for me, but one thing Socionics has been valuable for is understanding that people value different things. If someone wants to criticize my values, they are free to have nothing to do with me.

[jewels]

Not surprisingly, I'm going to rely on the safeguard of context: who's saying what, when.

Criticising my intelligence or ability to reason? No effect whatsoever, owing to my belief that most people are shitty thinkers.

Nice! I would like to aquire that mindset . I guess it helps to have a lot of Te.

That's interesting, but I guess we all do have our unique versions of what types of criticism suck must for us.

For instance, if someone criticizes something Fi-ish -- for instance I have a drama-ish ISFj friend who will throw a "poor me" fit over not being invited to some event where she doesn't even know the person hosting it, and expect me to "smooth it over" yet there is no good reason to do that, considering they aren't even friends -- then if someone were to criticize my Fi-move by neglecting to "smooth it over" it wouldn't sting at all, as I'd clearly know it was a stupid situation and no action on my part was needed.

However, if someone says "that fact is wrong" Or "you're not being logical." Or "this information isn't well put together/thought out." That would piss me off and I'd be hurt.

I'm trying to think of an Ne hit, but I can't even imagine one. Like, "sheesh, you're just being closed-minded and not thinking of possibilities!" I think would just be ridiculous and would probably look at them strangely (while thinking they were an idiot).

So all depends I guess...

[Park]

If someone wants to criticize my values, they are free to have nothing to do with me.

[force my hand]

Nice! I would like to aquire that mindset . I guess it helps to have a lot of Te.

Through the implication of my opinion, I may be overestimating the worth of my ability to reason, but it's the confidence within myself that's relevent where criticism is concerned. To you, or anyone, I would recommend getting into as many arguments as possible.

...reason being that practice and familiarity breeds security.

[force my hand]

Unfortunately, a sizeable number of people have exercised that freedom.



Whoops, haha.

[Minde]

Through the implication of my opinion, I may be overestimating the worth of my ability to reason, but it's the confidence within myself that's relevent where criticism is concerned. To you, or anyone, I would recommend getting into as many arguments as possible.

...reason being that practice and familiarity breeds security.

Hm, that's a good point, actually... I don't remember thinking of it in quite that light.

Indeed, I've found that people not used to presenting their opinions logically and coherently tend to get more flustered and personally hurt/offended when pressed to do so.

That does lead to some things I need to think about for myself, though...

[Brilliand]

Unfortunately, a sizeable number of people have exercised that freedom.

Many of the problems in the world are caused by lonely people trying to make friends.

But of course, people not having friends is a problem, so this is simply a case of one problem leading to another.

[jewels]

Many of the problems in the world are caused by lonely people trying to make friends.

But of course, people not having friends is a problem, so this is simply a case of one problem leading to another.

I think the world would be much better if more lonely people tried to make friends.

As for what Force my hand said, I think people not allowing a person to have their own beliefs and values really should be removed from your life. A person like that is not a friend. Brings that quote "with friends like that who needs enemies."

[silverchris9]

lol. I can't believe that I thought I was IEE when I first came here. Not at ALL!

I'd imagine that Fi valuers would take "you're not living up to your values" criticism fairly well (sting for a while, grateful afterward), kind of like an IEI and "hey you, you're screwing up your life, get up and fix it!" It always helps anybody, I think, to have the element of "and I know you can do this" in there. But maybe that's not true?

Anyway, I think I have seen that Te criticism goes over better (another lol at me being IEE, Te criticism is annoying waste of time), but my IEE mom still has a visceral reaction to criticism in general. I think it's an Fi thing?

[randomguy]

I dont take criticism well at all. In my mind, either Im not qualified for the job or task im undertaking or the person is being too critical of details that I blow them off.

[jessica129]

Critisism doesn't really bother me at all. I can usually accept it as something to take into consideration or I just completely ignore it depending on it's context. There's only one thing that really effects my ego when it comes to critisism but even then I view it solely as something useful. There's a reason someone said something critical towards you...i try to improve or forget.