Se PoLR of INFjs and INTjs

[Kill4Me]

One time me, an ENFp, and an INFj were waiting at a restaurant.

We were sitting at a table for a while and our server didn't arrive yet. I suggested that I'd physically walk up to the server and ask them to serve us (Se)

That's not Se per say. The situation could speak more to your use of Te. Imposing order, using your cognition for functionality to make the part function better with the whole, business logic. Also the fact you suggested the action and were cognizing it in terms of "I physically walk up" and do x shows means-end contemplation with yourself as an external behavior.

Read Jung for more information on Se and Te.

[Computer Loser]

That's not Se per say. The situation could speak more to your use of Te. Imposing order, using your cognition for functionality to make the part function better with the whole, business logic. Also the fact you suggested the action and were cognizing it in terms of "I physically walk up" and do x shows means-end contemplation with yourself as an external behavior.

Read Jung for more information on Se and Te.

Nah

[Kill4Me]

Nah

Well, Jung is quite clear that reflective action is Te and that Te is a forceful function, so your example is much too simplistic to label Se. You aren't cutting deep enough. I mean, you don't want to be uninformed. That's why I recommend you read Jung. Jung is the cannon on functions. These are his functions you're using. The least you could do is learn about what they mean.

If anything, what you're describing is more Te-creative. From Jung on Extraverted Thinking:

When thinking holds prior place among the psychological functions, i.e., when the life of an individual is mainly governed by reflective thinking so that every important action proceeds, or is intended to proceed, from intellectually considered motives, we may fairly call this a thinking type.

Their sanction is: the ends justify the means.

"Oughts" and "Musts" bulk large in this programme. If the formula is broad enough, this type may play a very useful role in social life as a reformer or public prosecutor or purifier of conscious, or as the proponent of important innovations. But the more rigid the formula, the more he develops into a martinet, a quibbler and a prig, who would like to force himself and others into one mould.

Jung is referring to imperatives of action when he talks about Te's "oughts" and "musts". So if we have to put a function on it, this whole "pushing yourself to do things = Se" is more Te due to its intentionality. In your example at the restaurant, the desired action proceeds from your reflection on the situation. You even stop to contemplate to the person you're with that you "ought" to ask them to serve you. Just sounds more Si/Te > Ti/Se.

[para]

I understand Se PoLR as an aversion towards external pressure. A need for internal, self-contained unfolding independent of interpersonal forces. It persuades instead of pushing. Negative reactions function as a shield, to force people out of the personal sphere. It doesn't have to be people, i think. It also manifests as a percieved meandering, aimless kind of thinking, which i understand as Ne in this particular situation.

[WinnieW]

I understand Se PoLR as an aversion towards external pressure. A need for internal, self-contained unfolding independent of interpersonal forces.

Exactly! Very good description.

[Bertrand]

I would say all Si types have a degree of aversion toward external pressure, but Se PoLR is characterized by a unique level of pain assocaited with those experiences. in general its the function that has the greatest level of insufficiency under the circumstances, so when Se predominates in the communicative space, Se polr is more susceptible to over or under reacting. over time people tend to try and get ahead of such situations so they avoid them where possible, which is your aversion. one way of avoiding polr is to try and set things up such that it is actively shielded by the mobilizing, so Si mobilizing is particularly likely to avoid or leave Se situations since the nature of Si is to seek comfort. so if comfort seeking is the natural shield to conflict sensing then you can see how avoidance becomes characteristic of such Se polr. I'm not really adding anything new here, just pointing out some things. another way is the creative (Ne) Kant was a famous advocate of capital punishment, this is another way to get "on top" of Se by way of reacting with a kind of Se implication of your own. in other words, Kant wanted to arrange the world in such a way that avoid Se conflicts but he did so in a way that had Se implications of its own that I don't think he realized the full ramifications of. In other words, polr can swing either way, so you get this kind of numbness to the nuance and can get really over the top responses polr in kind. Its sort of how like Bertrand Russel spent his whole life working on a piece of mathematical philosophy even though he is typed as IEE by many socionists. in other words there is aversion in space but also in time, with intuitives you see weird overreactions in abstract space in order to cope with polr

[Exodus]

I understand Se PoLR as an aversion towards external pressure. A need for internal, self-contained unfolding independent of interpersonal forces. It persuades instead of pushing. Negative reactions function as a shield, to force people out of the personal sphere. It doesn't have to be people, i think. It also manifests as a percieved meandering, aimless kind of thinking, which i understand as Ne in this particular situation.

Sort of... actually persuasion is a bit forceful itself (and is Fe which was actually present in peter's example above). More like suggesting (Ne).

[WinnieW]

My -PoLR is that I resist to follow commands or orders from other people; it is not directly related to in my case.

[para]

@thehotelambush

Yeah, that's a better word for it. Although i definitely believe that 'persuasion' in it's Fe incarnation is more deliberate and beaming, the other functions 'persuade' as well, though i'm stretching the term here. I can imagine others would find Ti as persuasive some would find Fe, though it's not the 'nature' of the function it self so to speak.

[Computer Loser]

lmao this thread.

To clarify the story,

I physically walked up to the server and demanded they SERVE US NOW. lol.

So it wasn't just me sitting there twiddling my thumb, trying to persuade my INFj friend or me stroking my beard while contemplating/reflecting... no, but I actually took action because it was taking so damn long, and I knew we needed to do something.

later on the night my INFj friend told me "I'm glad you're here, we would have been waiting all night if it weren't for you!!!" he thought doing all that was too forceful/confrontational.

Definition of Se creative:

The individual takes direct action to accomplish his goals and desires in the face of external obstacles, and also the interests of his close friends, family, or associates. This may involve prodding others to take necessary action, deliberately applying pressure in specific situations, or abruptly taking on an organizational role. The individual does not generally seek out confrontation, but he is also not afraid of it. He takes his responsibilities seriously and tends to perform them diligently and with care. He expects the same of others.

I see no issues there. The gist of it is applying pressure to make something happen. Types that are Se-PoLR are generally uncomfortable in applying this pressure.

Sorry if there was confusion, but some of yall are over-analyzing wayyy too much

“I was sitting on the toilet thinking about shitting; Is this Te or Se!?!?!?”

lol.

[Spermatozoa]

Se PoLR women are eccentric snowflakes who need their nappies changed, so remember, be gentle! Coo over your baby, flatter it, pamper it, and always put its need for absolute comfort above your need to push emotional boundaries. Never present yes-or-no decisions to these types, for they are insecure and will not readily commit to any one idea, action or person. A dramatic, epic style of romance is unlikely to be welcomed as power plays and the desire to possess (or be possessed by) another scare them. In practical terms, this means no naked wrestling, no joyriding, no heavy flirting, no trolling, and no dirty jokes. In fact it's probably better if you don't make any jokes at all, as you never know what could trigger your paranoid infantile girlfriend and dissolve her into hysterics. You can of course placate the baby and suppress your own desires. In that case, you'll have a woman who clings to you like a barnacle - right up until the moment she feels "too invested", panics and leaves you without an explanation.

Have fun guys!

[jason_m]

I will explain my Se-PoLR: I absolutely hate competition (but I thrive on it). By this, I mean that I absolutely hate fierce, face-to-face, cut-throat competition of any kind. When I do compete, it is not a game of chess or checkers, but of solitaire: I therefore thrive on competing with myself. If I do compete with others, it is simply to get them off of my back. In other words, I believe that overt competition of any kind only breeds contempt. Therefore, to thrive, one must compete heavily, but solely against themselves. I also believe that anger and aggression are two of the most destructive emotions to display. From this, one might conclude that I am an extremely cooperative, others-serving person. This is not exactly correct - although cooperation is really important for any person or society to exist. Also, sometimes people confuse Se-PoLR with a distaste for hedonism or 'pleasure-seeking' behaviour. For me, this is confusing MBTI with Socionics; although pleasure-seeking behaviour that abuses or manipulates others is wrong, in general, there is nothing offensive to me about it, and I often seek it out.

[Rebelondeck]

LIIs and EIIs seem to spend inordinate amounts of time assessing themselves - their pasts, futures, current situations, successes, losses, capabilities, etc.. Of all the types, they seem to be most fixated on who they are, where they stand, and what they can and cannot do; they seem to have clear views of their own egos. Most people don't want their weaknesses outed but these types will try to engineer their lives to ensure that this doesn't happen. Other types wouldn't want to appear incompetent either but they don't seem to to look inward quite as much or to be as bothered by looking foolish. Hyper self-awareness can sometimes contribute to self-defeat, but the same processes can be used to see others and their situations very clearly.

a.k.a. I/O

[consentingadult]

My -PoLR is that I resist to follow commands or orders from other people; it is not directly related to in my case.

This is true. Unlike ILIs, a proverbial kick in the butt doesn't get you anywhere with LIIs.

[Chthonic Daydream]

Although I find it hard to just go up to a waiter and assert myself over a silly order (unless it's of course been too long, 50 minutes maybe?, I think that's because of my social anxiety and not type related. Because I can't really picture myself as being TOTALLY unable to nudge-nudge and pull on other people's shirts, sort of to say. But anything more than that does come off as forceful to me.

As for competition, what jason_m said above was pretty relatable. I dislike overly-competitive environments and even banter that implies such cut-throatness ("Wow, you suck haha!") tends to make me a biiit uncomfortable. For this reason, I tend to stay away from PvP in online games (Although i'm actively playing Smite now, a MOBA and ugh, it brings out all the anger in me).

[The Reality Denialist]

Se PoLR women are eccentric snowflakes who need their nappies changed, so remember, be gentle! Coo over your baby, flatter it, pamper it, and always put its need for absolute comfort above your need to push emotional boundaries. Never present yes-or-no decisions to these types, for they are insecure and will not readily commit to any one idea, action or person. A dramatic, epic style of romance is unlikely to be welcomed as power plays and the desire to possess (or be possessed by) another scare them. In practical terms, this means no naked wrestling, no joyriding, no heavy flirting, no trolling, and no dirty jokes. In fact it's probably better if you don't make any jokes at all, as you never know what could trigger your paranoid infantile girlfriend and dissolve her into hysterics. You can of course placate the baby and suppress your own desires. In that case, you'll have a woman who clings to you like a barnacle - right up until the moment she feels "too invested", panics and leaves you without an explanation.

Have fun guys!

Si PoLR organisms are people who experienced reality as torn away present while they are loudly howling their out of sync whining waiting for grasp of rough reality. Bring in out of place etiquette, whips, tools to conduct torture ̣as they are ready to meet the demands set by coarse force. Never offer them cozy place to be in as they would rather spend their night under the bridge while rats are chewing their toes and fingers and giving them non-treatable set of health problems. Never be easily gently approachable to them as they will start to cut their wrists just to get some inner balance. In practical terms, this means no food that tastes good where it exceeds the utility value of minimal nutrition, no comfortable clothes without internal spikes, no sitting down to enjoy the scenery. If you want to impress them offer them some intravenous therapy while making them to do huge pile of work while at night you are having some rough BDSM sessions. If done correctly they will be at your service providing new set of perspectives and ideas whenever you need them out of dreadful but so rewarding misery.

[WinnieW]

This is true. Unlike ILIs, a proverbial kick in the butt doesn't get you anywhere with LIIs.

Yeah, I wouldn't be a model soldier because I'm prone to insubordination. I don't follow orders that doesn't make sense to me. You have to explain to me why I have to do something.

[The Reality Denialist]

Yeah, I wouldn't be a model soldier because I'm prone to insubordination. I don't follow orders that doesn't make sense to me. You have to explain to me why I have to do something.

The answer will always remain the same: to make you a better non questioning soldier robot without free will.

[Starvish]

Reading this thread I think I'm Se-polr. I can relate to the situations people are presenting here.

[WinnieW]

@Troll Nr 007
I refuse to fulfill the role of a mindless remote controlled human drone.

But I can see there are a few motivations not to follow orders.

- Because some tasks don't make sense to you
- Because some tasks are contradicting to your value system

[WinnieW]

Reading this thread I think I'm Se-polr. I can relate to the situations people are presenting here.

You are invited to join the club of -PoLR, but you have to do it by own choice... because I doubt that I can force you to do it.

[The Reality Denialist]

@Troll Nr 007
I refuse to fulfill the role of a mindless remote controlled human drone.

But I can see there are a few motivations not to follow orders.

- Because some tasks don't make sense to you
- Because some tasks are contradicting to your value system

Yeah. Over here it is compulsory for males to be half (if you are good one) year in military [in case you are healthy]. I think lots of LII's will say no to it and take civil service or
monitoring sentence/jail instead.

[perpetuus]

This is true. Unlike ILIs, a proverbial kick in the butt doesn't get you anywhere with LIIs.

If anything, it makes them dig their heels in deeper and resist that much more.

[Beautiful sky]

If Se is about invading people's personal space, does it then follow that Ni allows their personal space to be invaded (by anyone)?

Ni type like my mom invades personal space and judges what people do in it all the time. My mother used to walk into my friends room or walk by it and say “she’s so messy and dirty with all the unorganized clutter of stuff laying around.” I was likemom who cares how she lives her life.

[Beautiful sky]

Se is sense perception being attracted to objects and looking or touching shape size textures etc. I don’t. I’m an introvert. I live in my head so not many objective qualities get into my sensory databank like how things look and sound and feel. But what I do see I see well and often have a hard time proving to realists and sensory types who need proof and data to support my claims. Like I saw an SEE in line at a store and while I say yo SEE types that she’s SEE they will gang up on me and ask how I know they are SEE without talking to them. I say facts like they have solid stature and built strong . They tel me it’s not adequate proof. God help me

[FarDraft]

I think I have a couple examples, but I'll see if you guys agree.

I'm reasonably certain that my IEE friend's girlfriend is an LII (Ti subtype for sure so LSI is also a possibility, though she isn't forceful to other people which suggests otherwise). I'll call her FGf for short. One thing I've noticed is that she always has to do things by herself even when there's no expectation that she should be able to do it herself. She has to do things "her way" and resists when I or anyone else suggests a better method. My EII sister (S) is also like this. My father often tries to correct us when he feels we're doing something wrong, and while I don't mind being forced to try a new technique, S gets really annoyed, saying something along the lines of, "I can do it! Stop trying to control me!" She then becomes rather rigid. It's funny because she eventually tries the technique, only to realize that it's much better than the one she does. It's similar with FGf. Neither S nor FGf is very forceful to others and so I don't think they are Se creative. They are also very conflict averse and FGf prefers spending her time in a very Fe atmosphere. So I'm pretty sure they're Se PoLR.

Another example is that when there's a lot of pressure put on FGf, she becomes incredibly austere and irritable. For example, if there is a problem set due today and she has not yet finished, when she is working on it she is very rigid in her motion, irate in her facial expressions, and uncompromising in her actions. It's as if she can't handle the external pressure that comes along with deadlines. If she's unable to figure something out before the deadlines, then she essentially breaks down, as if it's the end of the world. She may cry or become enraged - an emotional mess. My friend has to comfort her and calm her down. I know she has the capability to see beyond this single assignment, but she chooses not to (Ni unvalued?).

Let me know if this is Se PoLR or not. It makes sense to me that it is Se PoLR (combined with immaturity), but I'd rather not feed misinformation.

[The Reality Denialist]

Lots of those are Se super ego problems. Anyways, Se role sets boundaries when pressure exists [both ways] while PoLR tends to have sudden eruptions [meltdowns, rages etc] or total inhibition. Where the demo Ni shows itself is their reluctance towards tasks where they may have to exert pressure due to sudden changes etc.

[Beautiful sky]

And I love Si... limit energy don’t expand it like Se can... this is why EII wish for an LSE to be around to do everything for them

[Beautiful sky]

I think I have a couple examples, but I'll see if you guys agree.

I'm reasonably certain that my IEE friend's girlfriend is an LII (Ti subtype for sure so LSI is also a possibility, though she isn't forceful to other people which suggests otherwise). I'll call her FGf for short. One thing I've noticed is that she always has to do things by herself even when there's no expectation that she should be able to do it herself. She has to do things "her way" and resists when I or anyone else suggests a better method. My EII sister (S) is also like this. My father often tries to correct us when he feels we're doing something wrong, and while I don't mind being forced to try a new technique, S gets really annoyed, saying something along the lines of, "I can do it! Stop trying to control me!" She then becomes rather rigid. It's funny because she eventually tries the technique, only to realize that it's much better than the one she does. It's similar with FGf. Neither S nor FGf is very forceful to others and so I don't think they are Se creative. They are also very conflict averse and FGf prefers spending her time in a very Fe atmosphere. So I'm pretty sure they're Se PoLR.

Another example is that when there's a lot of pressure put on FGf, she becomes incredibly austere and irritable. For example, if there is a problem set due today and she has not yet finished, when she is working on it she is very rigid in her motion, irate in her facial expressions, and uncompromising in her actions. It's as if she can't handle the external pressure that comes along with deadlines. If she's unable to figure something out before the deadlines, then she essentially breaks down, as if it's the end of the world. She may cry or become enraged - an emotional mess. My friend has to comfort her and calm her down. I know she has the capability to see beyond this single assignment, but she chooses not to (Ni unvalued?).

Let me know if this is Se PoLR or not. It makes sense to me that it is Se PoLR (combined with immaturity), but I'd rather not feed misinformation.

I am very open to efficient methods of doing things. In fact I keep many notes and in my journal I have lots of cut outs and article references to efficient methods.

[PussyInASarcophagus]

Se is sense perception being attracted to objects and looking or touching shape size textures etc. I don’t. I’m an introvert. I live in my head so not many objective qualities get into my sensory databank like how things look and sound and feel. But what I do see I see well and often have a hard time proving to realists and sensory types who need proof and data to support my claims. Like I saw an SEE in line at a store and while I say yo SEE types that she’s SEE they will gang up on me and ask how I know they are SEE without talking to them. I say facts like they have solid stature and built strong . They tel me it’s not adequate proof. God help me

Are you like a HBO comedy character or something?

[FarDraft]

I am very open to efficient methods of doing things. In fact I keep many notes and in my journal I have lots of cut outs and article references to efficient methods.

I didn't mean that xII's aren't open to new methods but that they're generally stubborn and prefer to do things "their way" over someone else's. Dominant Ji would lead to this. My EII sister generally dislikes other people micromanaging her, which is like this. Another example is that sometimes I or my father makes jokes about how she eats her food. She retorts with, "Stop watching me eat! I'll do it however I want to."

[Beautiful sky]

Are you like a HBO comedy character or something?

I’m not sure where that came from or what you are attempting to communicate by your statement. Please explain yourself and why your remark is inappropriate to this thread

[Ryan]

I didn't mean that xII's aren't open to new methods but that they're generally stubborn and prefer to do things "their way" over someone else's. Dominant Ji would lead to this. My EII sister generally dislikes other people micromanaging her, which is like this. Another example is that sometimes I or my father makes jokes about how she eats her food. She retorts with, "Stop watching me eat! I'll do it however I want to."

What you are talking about sounds like unvalued Te, hence her statement. None of your examples seem relevant to Se-polr imo.

I've actually been told I'm one of the easiest people to train because I'm too agreeable and laid back. I've been trained by people way younger than me and I can tell that they are more nervous than I am. I really don't care if people micromanage me. It's only an issue if the intention is to dominate and force your hand.

[The Reality Denialist]

Lol, it sounds very ILE like to do things their own way. That is demo Te. Some LII's even avoid technology as they just prefer to Ti and it can cause stress for them.

I agree that EII's tend to follow instructions very carefully in technical things. I have even written a manual for one. Some things are just so easy to improvise like using computer to do non standard things.

[WinnieW]

Some LII's even avoid technology as they just prefer to Ti and it can cause stress for them.

I'm not one of them. I like to stay informed about the newest technological trends.

[Beautiful sky]

Lol, it sounds very ILE like to do things their own way. That is demo Te. Some LII's even avoid technology as they just prefer to Ti and it can cause stress for them.

I agree that EII's tend to follow instructions very carefully in technical things. I have even written a manual for one. Some things are just so easy to improvise like using computer to do non standard things.

Yup it’s ILE indeed

[Chthonic Daydream]

Help? Yes, please. But be sloooow and clear.
Patronizing? Get out.

This is why I only trust Google and wiki-how when I need to know how something is made or done. The internet doesn't submit to human caprices and I can go at my own pace

[Rebelondeck]

.........that she always has to do things by herself ........ She has to do things "her way" and resists when I or anyone else suggests a better method........"I can do it! Stop trying to control me!" She then becomes rather rigid. It's funny because she eventually tries the technique, only to realize that it's much better than the one she does......becomes incredibly austere and irritable.........working on it she is very rigid in her motion, irate in her facial expressions, and uncompromising in her actions. It's as if she can't handle the external pressure that comes along with deadlines. If she's unable to figure something out before the deadlines, then she essentially breaks down, as if it's the end of the world. She may cry or become enraged........

The quoted behaviour is LII-like. Although they tend to evade conflict as well as other complications, LIIs tend not to be conflict averse; in fact they can be very lethal if something or someone is in their way and they are convinced they're right. I would attribute some of the behaviour that you describe to youth and or lack of confidence.

LII blowups seem to be a result of holding emotion at bay for too long and it takes very little to bring down the house of cards. All Ijs seem to operate somewhat like pressure cookers (for different reasons) - and much of the pressure comes from within; they seem to easily get disappointed in their own competence.....

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

The quoted behaviour is LII-like. Although they tend to evade conflict as well as other complications, LIIs tend not to be conflict averse; in fact they can be very lethal if something or someone is in their way and they are convinced they're right.

Like young Carl Jung who swang other kids (bullies) from their legs.

[VenusRose]

I have quite literally pretended it doesn't exist...

And not even on purpose, or consciously. My mind "rationalized" Se-heavy behaviors as unnecessary, brutish, brash, or even cruel depending on what seemed appropriate. I also sometimes felt like they didn't get me at all and that the imagination was somewhat weak. Not all! But some, yeah. Probably more so my conflictors/super-ego relations more than anything else.

But yeah, basically I was so repelled by it, I never interacted with, never went close to it, didn't really bother with it. I had no interest.