How do you envision socionics improving your community?

[Guillaine]

Aside from individuals making potential satisfying romantic partnerships, how does, or do you see, socionics improving your community? I have things in mind like for example maybe becoming more inclusive through equally and consciously valuing different information elements, perhaps in the way of planning curriculums or cities etc, especially having in mind how different functions may be valued in different ways by different communities living together like T and F functions in Western culture and perhaps S and N functions in some of the indigenous communities in my country (Australia) and how to reconcile those things, or make western culture more open to less verbal forms of communication and knowledge, also so accepting types can participate more fully without having to find subcultures or become disaffected (not that all do, very generalising here). I know these are broad brushstrokes, these are just some thoughts in one direction but the general question I am interested in.

[Cosmic Teapot]

how does, or do you see, socionics improving your community

Look at this forum and you'll see that socionics would not improve any community.

[Olimpia]

There's the idea to have classes with people from the same quadra, and some (apparently Si valuing) Socionists find it useful to have the same Quadra in hospital rooms etc so that people get healthy again faster.

I could see the value in having schools ordered by Quadras, but at the same time it might create a kind of rivalry and "typism" akin to Harry Potter Houses haha, and it might foster more diversion. As the world is right now, everyone needs to be able to somehow make it work amongst all kinds of different types, and that teaches us how to be more tolerant of each other's differences. If we were always put into our Quadra, we wouldn't have to learn that.

So all in all, I would be careful with extending Socionics theory to every area in life, but in some key areas, like school and work and perhaps health care primarily, it could be fruitful.

[Olimpia]

Look at this forum and you'll see that socionics would not improve any community.

This forum is not ordered by Quadra, though. It's like every other community, full of different types of people.

[Exodus]

As others have pointed out, simply knowing about socionics does not generally lead to self-improvement or being more accepting of different types. So you have essentially two ways to use it fruitfully:

1. Externally organizing people (as with hospital or college roommate situations, or arranged marriage)

2. Helping people who are already predisposed to internal growth, such as for counseling (including marriage counseling) or spiritual development. It's more important here for the counselor or spiritual guide to know about socionics and its terminology, the person they're helping would mainly need the "plain language" version of what's going on.

The problem with #1 is to put boundaries in place so that it doesn't become some 1984 type situation where your whole place in society is decided for you by the government based on your type. And like @Olimpia said the whole idea of quadra segregation wouldn't be so great when it comes to understanding other types. I think it would be ok in moderation.

#2 is really where socionics shines IMO.

[Olimpia]

As others have pointed out, simply knowing about socionics does not generally lead to self-improvement or being more accepting of different types. So you have essentially two ways to use it fruitfully:

1. Externally organizing people (as with hospital or college roommate situations, or arranged marriage)

2. Helping people who are already predisposed to internal growth, such as for counseling (including marriage counseling) or spiritual development. It's more important here for the counselor or spiritual guide to know about socionics and its terminology, the person they're helping would mainly need the "plain language" version of what's going on.

The problem with #1 is to put boundaries in place so that it doesn't become some 1984 type situation where your whole place in society is decided for you by the government based on your type. And like @Olimpia said the whole idea of quadra segregation wouldn't be so great when it comes to understanding other types. I think it would be ok in moderation.

#2 is really where socionics shines IMO.

I'd aspire to #2. ^-^'

[The Reality Denialist]

By reordering living situations:

Alphas get tropical paradise islands

Betas can live in rainforests

Gammas should rebuild the Africa without minions

Deltas should concentrate on farming

[Hope]

I think socionics can help you individually to improve your own relations and understanding of yourself and others if you are not too dumb to misuse it. To me that's very valuable by itself, since change or improvement starts individually not in group. I mean, why try to consider improvement in terms of "community" instead of "individual/personal" first?

A community/group is made of individuals, if a tool as socionics is useful indivdually it can help in a group.

Anyway there has never existed any community where it has been used extensively as for getting worthy and quantifiable results afaik.

[Hope]

Look at this forum and you'll see that socionics would not improve any community.

then why are you here?

[Xaiviay]

For what it's worth, I have one theory on this. It could be really good for people to be aware of the quadra values they are predisposed to favoring (and that others have different ones). What one quadra finds fulfilment in can be highly distasteful for another. It can be very enlightening to see that there are uses for the information elements you don't value, also. Perhaps if more people understood the basic framework of quadra values, they'd feel free to pursue their own interests more often, and would be less threatened by the differing lifestyles in society.

From personal experience, it's always bothered me how--I think mainly members of the Beta Quadra--have tried to impose their ideals of feminine behavior and masculine behavior on society, mistaking the aggressor romance style for masculinity and the victim romance style for femininity. Teaching women how to play 'hard-to-get' and test a man to keep a challenge going for him (to appeal to a desire in him to 'conquer') and teaching men to be--imo--domineering and competitive to a fault, controlling and too assertive.

This was heart-breaking for me growing up, because I kept hearing that "all men want a challenge and if you don't give him one you'll lose his interest" when it's entirely unnatural for me to play these power games. I so badly wanted to believe it wasn't true, but I didn't have enough life experience at the time to know for sure. It's not even love, for me, if I have to manipulate him like that. If I like a man, I want to express it to him openly and warmly, and I subconsciously know whether or not I like someone rather quickly (my gut instinct is the most reliable indicator when it comes to dating). If I don't like a man, then no amount of pursuing on his part ever begins to change my mind. So either I like him and express it, or I just don't. I don't make him 'jump through hoops' for me or chase me around (and I hate to feel imposed upon by a man, honestly, I do not like to have his will pressed on me, or boost his ego by making him feel he has 'worn down my resistance' to him).

So it was really encouraging to see how the different quadras value different relational styles, and know that I wasn't the only one who didn't want a relationship marked by a battle of wills. Also I realized why so many other people did, and that it's just the way that they are, same as how wanting something different is just the way I am...Perhaps people can be given access to ideas that fit them better with Socionics quadra theories, if they don't relate to the cultural ideals around them.

I've seen men who are Ne/Si valuing settle for women who are victims, as well, and you can tell that internally it pains them to have to 'be strong' and pass their tests when they'd rather just have a more gentle/harmonious relationship. But they think such a thing is not possible, probably because all their life they've been taught that "all women are this way" and they haven't had enough experience to know anything different. You can see all the angry young men on reddit being frustrated from having to deal with the "shit-testing" style of relating that victim women give, and some of them want to become more confident/competent to meet their standards, while most others want a different kind of relationship all together.

Perhaps if more people were aware of the relational styles, then there'd be fewer caregivers and childlikes trying to adapt to aggressors and victims because "all men/women are like that". It might be more freeing for the men who are victims and the women who are aggressors, as well. There's two SLE women I've talked to closely that feel very at-odds with the traditional gender roles of society. Thankfully both of them found men who are willing to let them take the lead, most of the time, but it was a point that frustrated them beforehand. Also, one ESI woman I know has been very unhappy trying to fit in with the conservative Christian ideals of womanhood (submission to the husband) when it is not natural to her. She married an aggressor man. I wish she had known in youth that it would be alright to take the lead in dating, she might have ended up with a man more suited to her.

Edit: just read the OP more carefully, I guess this is mainly about romantic relationships. But it's more general than duality, and has to do with the overal ideals of masculinity and femininity that people believe in. So I think it's more broad-based than dealing with romantic relationships, only.

[Guillaine]

i was thinking along the lines of including certain elements and aspects that are perhaps less valued in western cultures into everyday life. For example Si seems undervalued in general, the Yang outvalues the Yin, so something as easy as having a room in every workplace and school with dimmed lights, lounges, focused on comfort, some wind chimes, art, rainforest music, where people had to talk softly, whatever, would probably do a lot of people and communities a lot of good. If there was perhaps a bit more balance in this respect people wouldn't need to feel like they have to have a drink to wind down from work at the end of the day because they wouldn't be so wound up. that kind of thing. I know some Si doms that struggle in school probably this kind of thing would be useful. Teaching the arts to kids is always useful but still undervalued. I believe they are starting to do yoga and meditation in some schools and work places. People make better decisions generally I think when they have been able to process and reflect, I also think this whole idea is tied to valuing the feminine in Western culture and how we interract with the natural world, ie respecting female dominated labour industries and work such as childcare, nursing, teaching, mothering, cleaning as highly as we would those seen as masculine etc etc.

[Guillaine]

As others have pointed out, simply knowing about socionics does not generally lead to self-improvement or being more accepting of different types. So you have essentially two ways to use it fruitfully:

1. Externally organizing people (as with hospital or college roommate situations, or arranged marriage)

2. Helping people who are already predisposed to internal growth, such as for counseling (including marriage counseling) or spiritual development. It's more important here for the counselor or spiritual guide to know about socionics and its terminology, the person they're helping would mainly need the "plain language" version of what's going on.

The problem with #1 is to put boundaries in place so that it doesn't become some 1984 type situation where your whole place in society is decided for you by the government based on your type. And like @Olimpia said the whole idea of quadra segregation wouldn't be so great when it comes to understanding other types. I think it would be ok in moderation.

#2 is really where socionics shines IMO.

I see what you mean, there could be potential in the 2 side of it but it would be difficult for some people to draw a line between what is quadra values etc and what is irresponsible and immature behaviour so there's always a danger of explaining people poor choices on there type/quadra.

[Xaiviay]

i was thinking along the lines of including certain elements and aspects that are perhaps less valued in western cultures into everyday life. For example Si seems undervalued in general, the Yang outvalues the Yin, so something as easy as having a room in every workplace and school with dimmed lights, lounges, focused on comfort, some wind chimes, art, rainforest music, where people had to talk softly, whatever, would probably do a lot of people and communities a lot of good. If there was perhaps a bit more balance in this respect people wouldn't need to feel like they have to have a drink to wind down from work at the end of the day because they wouldn't be so wound up. that kind of thing. I know some Si doms that struggle in school probably this kind of thing would be useful. Teaching the arts to kids is always useful but still undervalued. I believe they are starting to do yoga and meditation in some schools and work places. People make better decisions generally I think when they have been able to process and reflect, I also think this whole idea is tied to valuing the feminine in Western culture and how we interract with the natural world, ie respecting female dominated labour industries and work such as childcare, nursing, teaching, mothering, cleaning as highly as we would those seen as masculine etc etc.

Wow actually I'm already prone to agreeing with you on everything you've said there. It would be better if the western world became more yin, I think. And it does seem to tie in closely with Si values. Well, I'm not sure what else to add, other than thank you for sharing, and I'm glad someone else thinks along these lines too.

[Spermatozoa]

I am becoming more cynical about Socionics. The best aspects of the theory can already be explained by other theories which have more predictive value.

Take the progression of Quadras and existence of Quadra values, concepts which have some similarities to meme theory, which addresses the evolution of culture. You can see this dynamic in groups of any size. What the Quadra theory does is help successfully predict the direction of the change, which I consider to be quite novel and it has applications in a range of situations from workplace conflict to civilizational progression. But this doesn't require Socionics. It could be a separate theory in its own right.

Even if I give that Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta Quadras are defined by their Information Elements, rather than some other quality yet to be invented, this still doesn't mean that Model A or any other model proposed is correct. At the very least, we need to abandon a model with fixed dimensionality of IEs and Blocks in order to make Socionics reflect brain activity, and I will reflect on some possible ways in which that could be done.

[Sol]

Aside from individuals making potential satisfying romantic partnerships, how does, or do you see, socionics improving your community?

Good romantic partnerships of duals may:
- make people better as persons by improving their skills in weak regions
- to help and support people in their weak regions, where they need it the most
- allow to reduce inner conflicts with the unconscious by what to rise peoples' general mood
- to reduce bad IR effects, by making the type as lesser expressed
- to allow feeling better and to have good experience of loving relations what makes people more kind to others

also
- types point on your the most developed and valued regions, where you may be more useful or to feel better

All that improves the society's cooperation and makes it as more productive.

---

Jung's types point on one of regions for personal development - the development of weak functions and also the reduction of neurotizing inner conflicts due to types. This may strongly improve peoples life and their cooperation as they may become smarter where stay infantile and will feel happier. It's the resource which is not used, still. We study in schools for some subjects, but miss more general situation with our minds which stay primitive and archaic on the half. While it's probably mb improved and to give the effects comparable with better education. Jung's types is the variant of psyche accentuations, - it's psychotherapy and education region.

Jung have pointed that our conscious is rather imperfect on the example on types. That it's good to rise weak functions to feel better and to deal better with the world. He used the types for psychotherapy where tried to do this, among other his ways.

Socionics have pointed that great help in this process may be gotten from other people. It mb understood as the expansion of Jung's approach to group therapy. The group therapy was not developed when Jung studed and established his methods, it appeared and got systematic use in psychotherapy later.
Jungians (mb Jung too) understood that duals support each other, but thought this impedes the development of weak regions, makes or leaves people as more infantile there. What is not totally correct, as people may study at other ones, especially in case of romances where may exist strong introjection. Besides the communication with duals activates weak functions and people feel better, - they always help to each other and teach to some degree as people copy the ones which they like.
Duality allows the mutual help of 2 (at least) people to improve skills of weak regions, to reduce their types and to help overcome types issues. This will works better when people do introjection, stop being egocentric, when they love. Love as friends or as romance pairs. Without this element some chance the duality may accentuate types or reduce the personal development - like in Jungians' apprehension.

[Guillaine]

Good romantic partnerships of duals may:
- make people better as persons by improving their skills in weak regions
- to help and support people in their weak regions, where they need it the most
- allow to reduce inner conflicts with the unconscious by what to rise peoples' general mood
- to reduce bad IR effects, by making the type as lesser expressed
- to allow feeling better and to have good experience of loving relations what makes people more kind to others

also
- types point on your the most developed and valued regions, where you may be more useful or to feel better

All that improves the society's cooperation and makes it as more productive.

Thanks sol, I appreciate that the duality has far reaching social consequences. I guess I was interested in the ways that we organise our everyday lives and how socionics might benefit it by people being more conscious about including a balance of the elements in our culture, therefore a more inclusive environment for all.

[Tigerfadder]

I think it helps with open up the idea of people having strengths and weaknesses, we are not all equally intelligent. The "dont teach a fish to fly".

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I have my doubts that somebody would like magically be a lot more well-adusted/happier if they were in a community of only people from their quadra. There are plenty of all Beta type places that I would hate being around. It also is kind of socially and ethically disgusting to me, like you want to put an opposing quadra (no doubt difference in fe/fi values) in a concentration camp or something. ****** thought he was doing the right thing too, remember that.

The friction/conflict from other quadras helps you get along more with others in your quadra I think, so I think pushing all deltas away would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Alliances are often formed because you are against something, not that the alliance itself is so strong in a vacuum- though I think a Fi person might feel kind of differently as they would be so focused on the Fi-ness of something.

We really wouldn't know for sure until we test this more but uhhhh umm uhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Exodus]

I see what you mean, there could be potential in the 2 side of it but it would be difficult for some people to draw a line between what is quadra values etc and what is irresponsible and immature behaviour so there's always a danger of explaining people poor choices on there type/quadra.

That's true. The ethics of socionics needs to be investigated more for this reason.

[Guillaine]

That's true. The ethics of socionics needs to be investigated more for this reason.

Also in relation to that, I assume we all are coming from a position of having stumbled upon socionics of more or less our own accord, more or less as adults, where we see it as a system amoung other systems and explanations of the world in our heads that we have learnt/unlearnt. It would be an entirely different thing to have someone you trust and look up to teach it to you, especially as a child.