Beta extraverted feeling Fe and dark thoughts

[Beautiful sky]

Dear Beta Fe types,

Please explain what happens to you when you submerse into negative thoughts. Where do these come from and what are they usually related to? How do they change or alter your emotions? Do they cause thoughts of suicide? Have you known a Beta NF who has committed suicide?


I understand that this is a touchy and dark subject, but I would appreciate you indulging me in your inner life.

If you feel that you would rather write to me in private, I welcome your thoughts and please be reassured that they will be kept private.

Thank you.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Theyre so dark that I feel dim.

[rat1]

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings. Incidentally this is why I curse you out more than I do anyone else on the forum.

[Gilly]

Theyre so dark that I feel dim.

Shine brighter

[Gilly]

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings. Incidentally this is why I curse you out more than I do anyone else on the forum.

Yeah, +1 to all of this...

[InkStrider]

I'm hesitating to write in this thread, but imo this is also related to the enneagram, in particular sx primary and a 4. It is often connected to Beta Fe in socionics, possibly because these types are stereotypically portrayed as being particularly attuned and immersed in emotion, more so than any other types. It is exacerbated if the Beta NF is strongly introspective and socially introverted.

Some people are just more inclined towards the dark and depressive than the rest, which occurs across all quadras. From what I have seen, negative early life experiences such as emotional abuse greatly inclines one towards the negative emotions, which may incline one towards suicidal thoughts if allowed to continue unabated for extended periods. If hope is dimmed through exposure to loss and death, all the more in intensity.

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings.

Many people are unaware and/or unwilling to admit the true insecurities underlying their own actions, choosing instead to believe in pretenses and veils. At times, so chronic is their disease, that we are tempted to pierce through these veils, to do them a favor by waking them up. It is often a thankless task, one frowned upon and causes one to be an object of hate. So why bother?

If an enemy, rather than enlighten them to it, I let be and see them trip over their own flaw in foolishness. In which case, the more delusioned they are, the better. If a friend, I can only point to the effects and hope they'd someday come to the cause. Friend or enemy, the worldview they adopt is their own choice, whether for better of for worse. I simply use theirs to take note of my own.

[Gilly]

I'm hesitating to write in this thread, but imo this is also related to the enneagram, in particular sx primary

Yeah definitely

and a 4.

Perhaps to a lesser degree, but yes nonetheless.

It is often connected to Beta Fe in socionics, possibly because these types are stereotypically portrayed as being particularly attuned and immersed in emotion, more so than any other types. It is exacerbated if the Beta NF is strongly introspective and socially introverted.

Yeah, I tend to think that sx + 4 + Beta NF is just kind of the perfect storm for this kind of thing rather than the only exemplar. I do think that Fe blocked with Ni tends towards humanitarian philosophical outlooks, especially when it comes to the underlying theme of "what has become of us" (which we see erupt so ironically from, stereotypically, ESEs and Deltas in times of particular anxiety - see the end of "No Country for Old Men").

Some people are just more inclined towards the dark and depressive than the rest, which occurs across all quadras. From what I have seen, negative early life experiences such as emotional abuse greatly inclines one towards the negative emotions, which may incline one towards suicidal thoughts if allowed to continue unabated for extended periods. If hope is dimmed through exposure to loss and death, all the more in intensity.

Indeed. However some people have psychological mechanisms which conflict with this, which tends to lead to greater buoyancy in the face of some conflict but gives way to an inevitable collapse if exposure is prolonged or repeated, versus the sort of slow, balanced jading that happens to those with a more compatible predisposition, or the bipolarity of those with more defiant natures.

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings.

Many people are unaware and/or unwilling to admit the true insecurities underlying their own actions, choosing instead to believe in pretenses and veils. At times, so chronic is their disease, that we are tempted to pierce through these veils, to do them a favor by waking them up. It is often a thankless task, one frowned upon and causes one to be an object of hate. So why bother?

Nature calls

If an enemy, rather than enlighten them to it, I let be and see them trip over their own flaw in foolishness. In which case, the more delusioned they are, the better. If a friend, I can only point to the effects and hope they'd someday come to the cause. Friend or enemy, the worldview they adopt is their own choice, whether for better of for worse. I simply use theirs to take note of my own.

Well there's that, or you could just come at them from a negative standpoint rather than a productive one and speed their fall. That's bad for your soul though.

[InkStrider]

Many people are unaware and/or unwilling to admit the true insecurities underlying their own actions, choosing instead to believe in pretenses and veils. At times, so chronic is their disease, that we are tempted to pierce through these veils, to do them a favor by waking them up. It is often a thankless task, one frowned upon and causes one to be an object of hate. So why bother?

Nature calls

I agree that's hard to resist.

I try to be gentle though, for we all have diseases we may not yet be conscious of. I think part of the reason why we (or for me at least) are irritated by and is so hard on such flaws in others is because we have/used to have them and know what it's like to be under its influence. Otherwise, we wouldn't even give a shit. (In other words, the more fucked up we ourselves are, the more we tend to recognize it in other people)

If an enemy, rather than enlighten them to it, I let be and see them trip over their own flaw in foolishness. In which case, the more delusioned they are, the better. If a friend, I can only point to the effects and hope they'd someday come to the cause. Friend or enemy, the worldview they adopt is their own choice, whether for better of for worse. I simply use theirs to take note of my own.

Well there's that, or you could just come at them from a negative standpoint rather than a productive one and speed their fall. That's bad for your soul though.

And since our souls are our only permanent possession... I wouldn't want to pollute it too much. Never know if there's really a hell down there awaiting me. It is tempting to do so nonetheless, but I would probably only unleash such fury under extreme circumstances when pushed beyond what I could possibly tolerate.

[GuavaDrunk]

I find it sad that people would require a hell to consider their soul valuable.

[rat1]

Hell is just an archetype for pain which you experience in life. Of course pain and pleasure is what motivates us. The soul is just a concern for that over the long term.. very long term.

[rat1]

Nature calls

I agree that's hard to resist.

I try to be gentle though, for we all have diseases we may not yet be conscious of. I think part of the reason why we (or for me at least) are irritated by and is so hard on such flaws in others is because we have/used to have them and know what it's like to be under its influence. Otherwise, we wouldn't even give a shit. (In other words, the more fucked up we ourselves are, the more we tend to recognize it in other people).

The offenders goal is the dissolution of the social structure. They are of the belief there is no future in the way society is heading. By expanding society; growing forward, we are only greatening our problems. Eventually they will become so heavy we will all cripple and die. Then maybe spark a revolution. So the attitude to tear down society is really an attitude (in certain cases) to martyr oneself for the greater good. The obvious example of this is terrorists, but all criminals have this to some minor extent.. some greater than others (myself).

[InkStrider]

I find it sad that people would require a hell to consider their soul valuable.

What makes you think that people would consider their souls valuable even in the absence of a hell?

The offenders goal is the dissolution of the social structure. They are of the belief there is no future in the way society is heading. By expanding society; growing forward, we are only greatening our problems. Eventually they will become so heavy we will all cripple and die. Then maybe spark a revolution. So the attitude to tear down society is really an attitude (in certain cases) to martyr oneself for the greater good. The obvious example of this is terrorists, but all criminals have this to some minor extent.. some greater than others (myself).

You paint a dim view. If this would be the case, let it head where it is to head. One man can do naught in the face of plenty, unless dictated by God. And even so, the chosen one is born with a cursed fate and faces a bitter death, as do all martyrs.

[WVBRY]

I aM gOtHiC. I aM eViL.

[rat1]

I find it sad that people would require a hell to consider their soul valuable.

What makes you think that people would consider their souls valuable even in the absence of a hell?

The offenders goal is the dissolution of the social structure. They are of the belief there is no future in the way society is heading. By expanding society; growing forward, we are only greatening our problems. Eventually they will become so heavy we will all cripple and die. Then maybe spark a revolution. So the attitude to tear down society is really an attitude (in certain cases) to martyr oneself for the greater good. The obvious example of this is terrorists, but all criminals have this to some minor extent.. some greater than others (myself).

You paint a dim view. If this would be the case, let it head where it is to head. One man can do naught in the face of plenty, unless dictated by God. And even so, the chosen one is born with a cursed fate and faces a bitter death, as do all martyrs.

And you are not a martyr. Christ did that for you, didn't he? So you technically are exempt from punishment I believe, isn't that correct? Since he endured all the pain and suffering, you don't have to? Wow, it all makes sense now. What we have to do to save this country is to massacre the Christians. LOL! SO i GUESS that makes me a Nazi propogationist of the modern age! HAHA!. Prediction 2012 duuudees!

[Beautiful sky]

You took out the Jesus card on him.

[rat1]

What I read means nothing to me.

Yeah, I get that from you. It's ok though.

[Beautiful sky]

That's not true. I still have to analyze it all.

[InkStrider]

And you are not a martyr. Christ did that for you, didn't he? So you technically are exempt from punishment I believe, isn't that correct? Since he endured all the pain and suffering, you don't have to? Wow, it all makes sense now. What we have to do to save this country is to massacre the Christians. LOL! SO i GUESS that makes me a Nazi propogationist of the modern age! HAHA!. Prediction 2012 duuudees!

I do not believe in the Christian God, nor in something so ridiculous as the death of one man washing away all our sins (although I know the counter-argument that the man is in fact a God and hence able to this). No one can escape the consequences of their own actions.

What I am saying though, is that it is usually difficult if not impossible for one man to turn the tide, and that one called upon that task, whether as a matter of destiny or individual choice takes upon a task of inevitable struggle and frustration. Due to its inevitability, it is the process that matters more than the end result, and what it does to the man himself rather than to society.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Darth Vader just PM'd my brain. Is that okay?

[InkStrider]

What I read means nothing to me.

How has it not served your purpose?

Your questions assumed a relationship between being beta NF and dark thoughts. I say that it is related to enneagram stacking sx primary and being a 4. You are limiting the answers that you may receive by posing this question to Beta NFs alone, considering that dark thoughts may be experienced by any type from all quadras. Unless you assume that the quality of dark thoughts experienced by Beta NF is different from what the rest of humanity is experiencing.

[Radio]

^ I'm not sure if that's an actual quote from Maritsa33, I think crazedratsshadow was snidely implying that Maritsa33 didn't think of the responses in the thread as worthy enough to comment. That was my interpretation anyway, unless she edited her post, but this sort of mock-quoting has been done before.

[InkStrider]

^ I'm not sure if that's an actual quote from Maritsa33, I think crazedratsshadow was snidely implying that Maritsa33 didn't think of the responses in the thread as worthy enough to comment. That was my interpretation anyway, unless she edited her post, but this sort of mock-quoting has been done before.

I see..

[Satan]

What makes you think that people would consider their souls valuable even in the absence of a hell?


You paint a dim view. If this would be the case, let it head where it is to head. One man can do naught in the face of plenty, unless dictated by God. And even so, the chosen one is born with a cursed fate and faces a bitter death, as do all martyrs.

And you are not a martyr. Christ did that for you, didn't he? So you technically are exempt from punishment I believe, isn't that correct? Since he endured all the pain and suffering, you don't have to? Wow, it all makes sense now. What we have to do to save this country is to massacre the Christians. LOL! SO i GUESS that makes me a Nazi propogationist of the modern age! HAHA!. Prediction 2012 duuudees!

DOWN WITH THE CHRISTIANS!!!

[Beautiful sky]

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings. Incidentally this is why I curse you out more than I do anyone else on the forum.

I like what you have to say about motives. I have often found that to be true of Fe base types as well; they are often confronted by people who pansy around the topic, not being direct with them about what they really want and why. Fi types want to hold some of their true selves inwards and not say the honest truth because that would mean purposely blemishing their own character, so most will boast about their better selves - ideal qualities as opposed to human/naturalistic, which I find to be closer to Fe types. I don't think that Fi types can't admit the truth about themselves, but they can't do it to the outside world, mostly because a lot of this is introversion too.

Still though, how do these thoughts lead into suicide or possible suicide?

I think you might not realize how tough I am, I just don't like to show it...it's pointless, we're all going to die so my belief is to be kind (why the hell not?)

[Beautiful sky]

@ InkStrider

Crazed wrote that for me. I didn't write that.

And, I appreciate your ability to analyze what I say and use a good measure of comparing/contrasting, however, please understand that my posts have a great deal of important objectives in mind.

I do not believe in the Christian God, nor in something so ridiculous as the death of one man washing away all our sins (although I know the counter-argument that the man is in fact a God and hence able to this). No one can escape the consequences of their own actions.

What I am saying though, is that it is usually difficult if not impossible for one man to turn the tide, and that one called upon that task, whether as a matter of destiny or individual choice takes upon a task of inevitable struggle and frustration. Due to its inevitability, it is the process that matters more than the end result, and what it does to the man himself rather than to society.

Do you want to marry a person who has no faith in God?

I'm hesitating to write in this thread, but imo this is also related to the enneagram, in particular sx primary and a 4. It is often connected to Beta Fe in socionics, possibly because these types are stereotypically portrayed as being particularly attuned and immersed in emotion, more so than any other types. It is exacerbated if the Beta NF is strongly introspective and socially introverted.

Some people are just more inclined towards the dark and depressive than the rest, which occurs across all quadras. From what I have seen, negative early life experiences such as emotional abuse greatly inclines one towards the negative emotions, which may incline one towards suicidal thoughts if allowed to continue unabated for extended periods. If hope is dimmed through exposure to loss and death, all the more in intensity.


Many people are unaware and/or unwilling to admit the true insecurities underlying their own actions, choosing instead to believe in pretenses and veils. At times, so chronic is their disease, that we are tempted to pierce through these veils, to do them a favor by waking them up. It is often a thankless task, one frowned upon and causes one to be an object of hate. So why bother?

If an enemy, rather than enlighten them to it, I let be and see them trip over their own flaw in foolishness. In which case, the more delusioned they are, the better. If a friend, I can only point to the effects and hope they'd someday come to the cause. Friend or enemy, the worldview they adopt is their own choice, whether for better of for worse. I simply use theirs to take note of my own.

Interesting. Yes. I do believe that certain types are particularly more prone to suicide and I'm trying to figure out what propels the rhythm of thought and action towards this general direction. I get that from reading Carl Jung's Psychological types about Fe types and here I want to see if it only applies to Fe base or are Fe creatives (auxiliary) function holders to the same. But, of course you're welcome to disagree with me or critique me or tell me that somehow people are too much of "individuals" for me to categorize them (Ti Role) and try to figure them out with certain angles.

[GuavaDrunk]

What makes you think that people would consider their souls valuable even in the absence of a hell?

Well, using "soul" to non-religiously designate the general essence and valuable parts of someone, it'd be nice to think people take a second to value those things. Or value them and themselves without taking the second, whichever.
Going by the religious definition or thinking of karma, that's their business.
As to what makes me wish people would think so.. the tendency to apply one's own point of view to others. The hell isn't a crucial part of the image, it's the valuing I focus on.

Hell is just an archetype for pain which you experience in life. Of course pain and pleasure is what motivates us. The soul is just a concern for that over the long term.. very long term.

Interesting way of looking at it.

[InkStrider]

@ InkStrider

Crazed wrote that for me. I didn't write that.

My mistake.

Do you want to marry a person who has no faith in God?

I would have to answer no to this question. But only because a reasonable belief/religious system ties in too much to our own attitudes and behaviors to be of little consequence.

Interesting. Yes. I do believe that certain types are particularly more prone to suicide and I'm trying to figure out what propels the rhythm of thought and action towards this general direction. I get that from reading Carl Jung's Psychological types about Fe types and here I want to see if it only applies to Fe base or are Fe creatives (auxiliary) function holders to the same. But, of course you're welcome to disagree with me or critique me or tell me that somehow people are too much of "individuals" for me to categorize them (Ti Role) and try to figure them out with certain angles.

I don't think certain types are more prone to suicide. It's probably a false impression but there is no way of knowing due to lack of stats. What I do think is that suicide is not type related, and that you designating this question to Beta NFs only limits the answers which you may have received had you posed it to the rest of the forum, if your intention really is to understand the factors behind such an occurrence. As it is, this thread has been posted for days and you have yet to receive a response addressing what you had in mind.

Well, using "soul" to non-religiously designate the general essence and valuable parts of someone, it'd be nice to think people take a second to value those things. Or value them and themselves without taking the second, whichever.
Going by the religious definition or thinking of karma, that's their business.
As to what makes me wish people would think so.. the tendency to apply one's own point of view to others. The hell isn't a crucial part of the image, it's the valuing I focus on.

I hardly think that most people value their souls even if there is no hell, because they wouldn't have wasted their lives the way they did, committing crimes of arson, abuse, murder, breaking people down rather than lifting them up, and overindulging in the misery of their own. The existence of hell (fear of punishment) didn't turn them away from such.

I agree with your point though that we should place more focus on the positive aspects and be motivated towards that which is good rather than away from that which is bad through fear. But consider, aren't they the same? A person who loves one thing hates the opposite in equal measure.

[Reuben]

So crazedrat you big pussy, are you as harsh and exacting to yourself as you are to others?

[Creepy-male]

What started as a rather unamusing thread by Maritsa on people's "dark thoughts"

has turned into the typical Theism/Atheism debate.

[GuavaDrunk]

I hardly think that most people value their souls even if there is no hell, because they wouldn't have wasted their lives the way they did, committing crimes of arson, abuse, murder, breaking people down rather than lifting them up, and overindulging in the misery of their own. The existence of hell (fear of punishment) didn't turn them away from such.

I agree with your point though that we should place more focus on the positive aspects and be motivated towards that which is good rather than away from that which is bad through fear. But consider, aren't they the same? A person who loves one thing hates the opposite in equal measure.

Valuing one's soul starts when you have the capacity to do well by it.

Before that, and on the way there, you're busy saving yourself from pain. It's too easy to be controlled by what you avoid, and running from something isn't nearly as good and productive a state to be in as being free to go where you will (one reason I dislike the concept of a hell.) And it's surprising how much there often is to deal with before being able to be your best self.

And third point, it is rather personal a concept what it is good and desirable to do and be.

Finally, I think your point of love/hate too dualistic to agree with. I may love chocolate ice-cream, but I don't hate vanilla.

[InkStrider]

Valuing one's soul starts when you have the capacity to do well by it.

Before that, and on the way there, you're busy saving yourself from pain. It's too easy to be controlled by what you avoid, and running from something isn't nearly as good and productive a state to be in as being free to go where you will (one reason I dislike the concept of a hell.) And it's surprising how much there often is to deal with before being able to be your best self.

And third point, it is rather personal a concept what it is good and desirable to do and be.

Finally, I think your point of love/hate too dualistic to agree with. I may love chocolate ice-cream, but I don't hate vanilla.

But chocolate ice-cream isn't the opposite of vanilla.

But I get what you mean.

[GuavaDrunk]

But I get what you mean.

*phew*

[InkStrider]

*phew*

Sorry, Ni PoLR

I guess I could have given you an SLE response: I LOVE CHOCOLATE ICE-CREAM! DOWN WITH THE VANILLAS!!!

*Smashes vanilla ice-cream*

[GuavaDrunk]

Sorry, Ni PoLR

I guess I could have given you an SLE response: I LOVE CHOCOLATE ICE-CREAM! DOWN WITH THE VANILLAS!!!

*Smashes vanilla ice-cream*

Oh! Well, I was actually relieved the non-binariness passed. It was a little part of the point though, that it isn't a binary matter in the first place. But I make my point vaguely sometimes.

HAHAHAHAHA!

*weeps for ice-cream* *goes to get another one to console it. Or is that myself? *

PS: I hope you don't OD on smileys.

[rat1]

I disown myself from whatever quadra you are in Guava.

[InkStrider]

I disown myself from whatever quadra you are in Guava.

Lol, she's cute in her own way.

[Saberstorm]

I often have very dark thoughts - thoughts that leave me exhilarated. I shiver with the insights I gain. But they are born in a dark hollow, shaded by the evil haunted trees of my imagination.

I often like to think that I am Theseus, the Greek hero who slays the minotaur. He choses to go into the labyrinth. He saw the mysterious maze as alluring. Later, he journeys into hell to save Persephone, the unwilling Bride of the Lord of Death! My darkness is heroic, for I am a lightbringer. I do not make darkness. I see it, and can journey into it. Once inside, I can dispell it!

I wish I could journey into the darkness again. I have been strange acting lately. I am happy and confident. The doorways to hell appear to be locked.

I receive and transmit emotions, both darkness and light. I love it so. I want to see hell again, but maybe I should do my sightseeing in someplace brighter (if only it is for a little while...)

[Saberstorm]

By the way, what the hell is everybody talking about on this thread? The stoics and the epicurians are going into strange shivering spasams here. They appear to hate each other too. I hope it was fun. I don't know what triggered it. :-)

[Creepy-pokeball]

By the way, what the hell is everybody talking about on this thread? The stoics and the epicurians are going into strange shivering spasams here. They appear to hate each other too. I hope it was fun. I don't know what triggered it. :-)

Use Plan B if you screw up.

[Beautiful sky]

I don't think certain types are more prone to suicide. It's probably a false impression but there is no way of knowing due to lack of stats. What I do think is that suicide is not type related, and that you designating this question to Beta NFs only limits the answers which you may have received had you posed it to the rest of the forum, if your intention really is to understand the factors behind such an occurrence. As it is, this thread has been posted for days and you have yet to receive a response addressing what you had in mind.

Nice Te.

Please allow me to do Fi and it's nice to have your Te, but I can't do it as well as you can. I have certain objectives (and time is of no consequence to the objectives), to understand some behavioral dynamics, rationally. It might be superfluous, trivial, and pointless to you, but I think about these things from many angles. Be patient.