MBTI ENTJ traits shared with the socionics LIE?

[Ezra]

From EIDB:

Originally posted by Functianalyst
[br]Well I have come to learn that there is no direct correlation with the two systems and have saw INTPs claiming to be E3s. However I first would stand-by my inclinations that an ENTJ will most likely not be an E6. Some examples, first a brief descriptor from David Keirsey:

If one word were used to capture ENTJ's style, it would be commandant. The basic driving force and need of ENTJ's is to lead, and from an early age they can be observed taking over groups. ENTJ's have a strong urge to give structure wherever they are-to harness people to distant goals.

and from Joe Butts’ Typelogic.com

ENTJs are decisive. They see what needs to be done, and frequently assign roles to their fellows. Few other types can equal their ability to remain resolute in conflict, sending the valiant (and often leading the charge) into the mouth of hell. When challenged, the ENTJ may by reflex become argumentative. Alternatively (s)he may unleash an icy gaze that serves notice: the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with.

I'm not concerned with the ENTJ being a Six. What I'm interested in is drawing parallels with ENTJ and LIE; especially in the area of command. I want to know if LIEs are as effective leaders as ENTJs are made out to be.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Minde]

I like your stories, Diana. You should tell them more often.

[mikemex]

LIEs are NTs after all. They are neither people-people nor action-people. Like all other NTs, they speak a lot and actually do little.

Probably they are seen as commanding because they are very good at business stuff and thus they often get promoted to high places in the laboral ladder. Being a manager or whatever is a job that requieres giving orders to others, but those are the properties of the job and not the person itself. In my opinion ENTj are very inclusive and democratic and I deeply admire that property of them.

LIEs are quite weak if you go beyond the surface. I have an ILI friend whose mom was a LIE and she told me that her mother was rather insecure but hid that from anyone else. She discovered it because her mom died and left a diary.

So no, I don't think ENTJ relates much to LIE. I have an IEE friend that scores ENTJ in MBTI.

[FDG]

One person that I've known as a possible LIE that I've seen in a leadership position - hmm. He wasn't commanding at all. He didn't like to be referred to as the boss of those he hired, but liked to be seen as a coworker.

I've been in "leadership" (brr I hate the word) positions while working, and that's how I tended to take them. Like, I was just acting as a coordinator among people that were doing specific jobs, in my mind, not that I was superior or anything.

LIEs are quite weak if you go beyond the surface.

What kind of surface, sorry? I'd expect a LIE to be "weak" at FiSe, but "strong" at TeNi...

Btw, I don't relate to the ENTJ mbti description much. ENTP, ESTP are better. Yet I tend to score ENTJ lately on the test.

LIEs are NTs after all. They are neither people-people nor action-people. Like all other NTs, they speak a lot and actually do little.

Probably they are seen as commanding because they are very good at business stuff and thus they often get promoted to high places in the laboral ladder.

That's logically inconsistent - if you do little it's very unlikely that superiors notice you and move you up.

[mikemex]

Weak as persons. I mean, they try to give away the impression that they are strong people and don't care a shit about what other people think and such, but they do. They are pretty easy to get hurt and insecure in the inside.

And by doing little, I mean that they tend to give advice, or orders, or whatever rather than doing things themselves.

[FDG]

Weak as persons. I mean, they try to give away the impression that they are strong people and don't care a shit about what other people think and such, but they do. They are pretty easy to get hurt and insecure in the inside.

I think probably this has more to do with individuals than particular types. I definitely do not care about what some people think, and care about what some other people think. I suppose you will find this to be the standard among the majority of the population.

And by doing little, I mean that they tend to give advice, or orders, or whatever rather than doing things themselves.

If advice is what people need, then advice is still doing things. Demand and supply, baby.

[Phaedrus]

LIEs are NTs after all. They are neither people-people nor action-people. Like all other NTs, they speak a lot and actually do little.

A LIE who does ... little ...? ... ... yeah, that was a good one ...

I have an IEE friend that scores ENTJ in MBTI.

Yeah, some IEEs are really lost. I don't know what to do about the problem, but their brains have a tendency to make trips now and then. Maybe some programmer can fix the bug for them.

[Expat]

What he would do instead was really funny. He would hide. My ex told me that he didn't answer the door at all and so he glanced in as he walked past the window and the LxE was crouching down trying to hide behind his computer so my ex wouldn't see him.

I related to most of what you wrote, fwiw, but not really to the above, except perhaps as a momentary automatic gesture, but not actually actively "hiding". I would either ask to talk later or indeed use a "do not disturb" sign (but I would also wonder whether it's rude).

[Ezra]

Yet I tend to score ENTJ lately on the test.

Probably because you want to. After a certain time, any test's results anyone gets will ultimately be defined by their own manipulation of the test, even if it's subconscious.

[FDG]

Probably because you want to. After a certain time, any test's results anyone gets will ultimately be defined by their own manipulation of the test, even if it's subconscious.

So how come I've always scored ENTx with split J P in the past too? Please gather all he relevant information before speaking, thanks.

[Ezra]

So how come I've always scored ENTx with split J P in the past too? Please gather all he relevant information before speaking, thanks.

For fuck's sake, Fabio, this isn't an argument, I just offered a likelihood.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

From EIDB:



I'm not concerned with the ENTJ being a Six. What I'm interested in is drawing parallels with ENTJ and LIE; especially in the area of command. I want to know if LIEs are as effective leaders as ENTJs are made out to be.

My experience of them is that they are natural leaders. I have observed some being more effective than others, so wether they lead a company to disaster or not is down to the individual.

Whats a six? Mm.. Oh.. I take it this is ennegram 'speak'?

[Phaedrus]

For fuck's sake, Fabio, this isn't an argument, I just offered a likelihood.

You didn't offer a likelihood.

[Adam Strange]

I first read about ENTJs when my new bride but eventual ex-wife suggested that we take this fun personality test that she’d found in a book called “Please Understand Me.”
I scored as an ENTJ. (She scored as an ISTJ, the same as my father, who was also taking the test. My ex did this at a family gathering.). So, I read the book’s description of an ENTJ as a “Field Marshal” and I could partly see it. I was working at the time as a production manager at a machine tool company and would start my first company in two years, and I had always acted as a leader in any group that I joined and cared about, but the overall impression I got from the description was that of a cartoon character. It portrayed an ENTJ as a larger-than-life Superman, and I certainly couldn’t relate to that.

I thought to myself, "Heck. If this is a description of my "type", then I'm severely underperforming. I mean, I know I have faults, but the gap between "ENTJ performance" and "my performance" looks like it's non-recoverable."

I then turned to Keirsey’s description of the best romantic match for an ENTJ. He said, “the fieldmarshal is enamored by the “flower child”, the bucolic artist ISFP, tranquilly ensconced in “Walden Pond!”

Lol. Not only didn’t that appeal to me at the time (I needed an ISTJ production manager, not a passive and dreamy sage), but the description of MBTI ISFPs turned out to be just as ludicrous and cartoonish as the Superman ENTJ description.

If you take the MBTI ISFP type as being closest to the ESI type, then Keirsey got the "best match" part right, although he later changed his mind and said the INFP would be a better match.

On the other hand, when I read Stratiyevskaya’s description of LIEs, I could see myself in entirety in her description.

So, no, the MBTI descriptions are not very much like the reality that I know.

[Averroes]

ENTJ = Any type A personality

INTJ = Misanthropic NTs, Beta STs and Ni-IEIs with superiority complexes

[Fake Intellectual]

The difference is very big. MBTI ENTJs have the description of a very decisive SLE, not really like an LIE. LIEs are not "tough guys" but not really weak either. It's very in-between with LIEs. In other words, LIEs are not really that assertive, while ENTJs are extremely assertive. Basically, one's a stereotypical "alpha male," while the other is not.

LIEs are nerds, MBTI ENTJs are not. Both have the similarity of being attracted to business. ENTJs are described as stereotypical businessmen, while LIEs are described as realistic businessmen (ENTJs are like businessmen in the movies, while an LIE is the kind of person you'd find running a business in real life).

Another interesting thing is that LIEs like to show weakness or vulnerability when they trust others. ENTJs won't do this, and are described as always being tough (even if they have a softer inside).

An ENTJ in MBTI is probably an SLE in Socionics, and an LIE in Socionics is likely to be an INTJ in MBTI (just with sensory issues replaced with emotional issues).

A stereotypical comparison is that MBTI ENTJs are the over accomplishing super stars in school, who are social and chads, while LIEs are the nerds who will "be your boss one day" (lol).

[Squirrel]

All ENTJs I know are LIEs and they barely relate to ENTJs stereotypes

Anyway, MBTI stereotypical descriptions are the dumbest

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

All ENTJs I know are LIEs and they barely relate to ENTJs stereotypes

Anyway, MBTI stereotypical descriptions are the dumbest

Many ENTJs in MBTI are probably actually SLE...since the definitions of IEs/functions differ. Stereotypical Te from MBTI and Se from Socionics have ehh kind of some overlap.

The MBTI stereotypes are fucking ridiculous.

[Fake Intellectual]

All ENTJs I know are LIEs and they barely relate to ENTJs stereotypes

Anyway, MBTI stereotypical descriptions are the dumbest

The stereotypes are the reason I left MBTI. There was absolutely no descriptions rid of idiotic, unrealistic stereotypes. Sociotype.com type descriptions are impressively free of such stereotypes.

[diya001]

ENTJ:
Commander, Negativist, Constructivist.
Problems with ethics.
Most examples of ENTJs on 16p are socionics sensory types (Gordon Ramsay, Margaret Thatcher, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harrison Ford, Malcolm X, etc.)
Fits enneagram 8.


LIE:
Problem solver, Positivist, Emotivist.
Problems with sensations.
Almost always external signs of intuition are noticeable: thin build, defocused eyes. Of those LIEs that I know personally, all of them have very thin necks and wrists..
Fits enneagram 3 or 5.



plus I agree on everything with @Averroes, @Fake Intellectual, @Lady Lioness.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

MBTI was made by an NF type irrc so ofc it will have type descriptions as special snowflakes i dont see a problem with it.

[welcometomania]

ENTJ:
Commander, Negativist, Constructivist.
Problems with ethics.
Most examples of ENTJs on 16p are socionics sensory types (Gordon Ramsay, Margaret Thatcher, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harrison Ford, Malcolm X, etc.)
Fits enneagram 8.

maybe the problem mainly lies in the wrong celebrity typings.. ?

[Metaphor]

Honestly, they don't really share as much as traits aside from the efficiency and experimental nature,
since most of Socionicists agreed that Kiersey ENTJ mostly resembles SLE utmost.

[Metaphor]

Many ENTJs in MBTI are probably actually SLE...since the definitions of IEs/functions differ. Stereotypical Te from MBTI and Se from Socionics have ehh kind of some overlap.

The MBTI stereotypes are fucking ridiculous.

It's not really ridiculous, it's just the entire circus if anything.