How ISTps are seen by Fe-valuing individuals

[mikemex]

I was in a car with my SLI and ILE friends (they didn't met each other before). For the entire trip my SLI friend kept very silent and inexpressive (usual business).

Later that day, when we were alone, my ILE friend started talking me about a book (he thinks) describes a lot of techniques to observe people and he said that my SLI friend:

* Is a very cold and calculating person.
* Is not to be trusted.
* Is probably a covert cheater.
* His lack of expression and reluctance to give away opinions about things reflects that he has "something to hide".

He obviously doesn't know anything about socionics. I believe such remarks would be a massive PoLR hit. How would you feel if a person said something like that about you?

[force my hand]

Obviously take a certain amount of offense.

Someone willing to make that quick of a judgement about me shows a lack of willingness to understand, and in a sense also disrespects you - a friend - for having this supposed poor taste/judgement in picking friends.

That said, I wouldn't base any decisions on that offense. I'd keep going along as normal.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

The remark would puzzle me. It is an indirect PoLR hit. I've learned over time to smile more within certain company, especially when i've first met them, it's not ideal for me, but it's just the way of things.

[Rubicon]

There's a deliberateness mixed with carelessness that's just. So. Cool.

QFT!

[Lotus]

I don't relate to your ILE friend at all.
Generally, I really like SLIs. I don't think of their quietness as a reason to be suspicious of them. Most of the time I'm most interested in someone who's really quiet when I first meet them. Making it my personal goal to talk to them and whatnot.

Unless they are quiet AND bitchy towards me. When you combine the two it comes off as snobbery. One or the other please...

[jessica129]

I'm a magnet for these comments. People have always referred to me as much worse things than what you have described...but it usually consists of being called "cold, bitchy and snobby". I let it bother me too much and it hurt my feelings a lot. I tried to be the exact opposite but that doesn't work. So, I stopped caring. 9 times out of 10 I want to be left alone anyway so it works. Sometimes it'll piss me off a lot and i'll say something equally ignorant in response but i've just gotten so accustomed to hearing negative remarks about how I come across that i don't give a damn anymore...rolls right off my back.

[Slacker]

I've heard my ENFj dad say similar things about two ISTps. Not my husband (he's very vague with his disapproval of my husband) but for one thing he's said basically the same thing about an ISTp uncle. My uncle ran for a local judge position, and my dad said that he didn't really want to be a judge but was just drumming up attorney business. And then my uncle ran for city commission and my dad said he just wanted an in with the city so he wouldn't have to follow some rule or another.

Then, once, a friend of a different uncle recognized my dad and came over and said hi and chatted for a bit with us, and he struck me as ISTp (and uncomfortable chatting with my dad), and when he left my dad said he had hired his business to do some work and he was suspicious that the guy hadn't given him a fair price or been up front about things.

Before I knew about Socionics, I really did think badly of ISTjs. I didn't understand that they simply saw the world differently, and that they probably had as bad an opinion of me as I had of them. I thought something was wrong with them. That's probably the best thing I've learned from Socionics - there is nothing wrong with ISTjs; they're just different. And different is OK. The world needs us all.

[xyz]

I'd tell your friend to fuckoff for making such judgements on me when i've said absolutely nothing to him.

And, like jessica, continue on my merry way

[JuJu]

I was in a car with my SLI and ILE friends (they didn't met each other before). For the entire trip my SLI friend kept very silent and inexpressive (usual business).

Later that day, when we were alone, my ILE friend started talking me about a book (he thinks) describes a lot of techniques to observe people and he said that my SLI friend:

* Is a very cold and calculating person.
* Is not to be trusted.
* Is probably a covert cheater.
* His lack of expression and reluctance to give away opinions about things reflects that he has "something to hide".

He obviously doesn't know anything about socionics. I believe such remarks would be a massive PoLR hit. How would you feel if a person said something like that about you?

This is almost word-for-ford how my SEE (former) friend perceived my SLI friend... Not to mention "directionless," a "screw-up," and "someone who will drag you down."

This is after they met twice... None of it was true, but at the time he tried his hardest to convince me that this SLI was trouble.

[jessica129]

I once worked with an older woman who I assume was ESFJ. I've never experienced such un-justified hatred from another person in my entire life. My very presence seemed to make her skin crawl. I found it very laughable and amusing. I had never spoken a word to her or even made eye contact with her but my god...the woman hated me. Spread all sorts of vicious rumors about me. I had never even spoken to the woman before and she had all sorts preconceived notions as to what kind of person i was. I don't know why someone would do this to another without at least trying to get to know them beforehand. I try to steer clear of people like this.

[FDG]

Not a Fe type here, but I haven't had problems with SLIs whatsoever. One of those I know can get a bit pushy, but if you push him off a bit he understands (I guess that's Te with Fe PoLR); the other one is a bit lazy, but hey, I see nothing bad in being lazy.

[snegledmaca]

I've had people discus the possibility of me being a sociopath in my presence. If anything I'd find it amusing. Generally, I would continue doing what I do, how I do it, probably slightly amused and probably further enforcing their opinion of me. In essence, I know and what I am and I don't care what other that don't really know me think of me. Well, not unless it somehow impeded, restricted me in doing what I do.

[jessica129]

I've had people discus the possibility of me being a sociopath in my presence.

lol, me too.

[cracka]

I once worked with an older woman who I assume was ESFJ. I've never experienced such un-justified hatred from another person in my entire life. My very presence seemed to make her skin crawl. I found it very laughable and amusing. I had never spoken a word to her or even made eye contact with her but my god... the woman hated me. I had never even spoken to the woman before and she had all sorts preconceived notions as to what kind of person i was.

I don't know why someone would do this to another without at least trying to get to know them beforehand. I try to steer clear of people like this.

There's your reasons in bold.
If this person was actually ESE... You've got someone who pretty much "wants to know everyone they are continually around" to some extent. In working with this person, you're someone that fits into that pretty well. By being as standoffish as you seemed to be, it gave her all the reasons to "judge" you as a bad person because in all actuality, she knew nothing about you other than you didn't seem very friendly to her, at all.

Spread all sorts of vicious rumors about me.

Some people are just bitches or assholes...


Hahaha, when I think about it, if I were around a person who paid "no" attention to me and I was around them... as in working with them, or going to school with them... etc. I remember actually asking people if they had some kinda problem with me and why. When they said they didn't, I usually just told them why I said what I did and gave them the reasons... much like the ones you actually posted up there yourself. For the most part, this was disarming to both the person along with myself and took that edge off that I'd felt before that conversation.

lol, this may be the wrong place to mention it (since I'm in a thread with ISTP's ), but if someone makes it a point to ignore me, like it seems you did to her, I'd consider it extremely rude and judge you much like she did. I think more of myself though, as I'm not one to go and spread ignorant rumors about people... That's just childish and mean.

[jessica129]

I'm not saying all people of her type are that ignorant, everyone is different but yeah...she was a massive bitch.

I put two and two together and i realized the reason she probobly hated me was because I was "ignoring" her. But the thing is, i wasn't doing it on purpose and didn't even realize I was doing it. I just don't talk to people unless they talk to me first and she never made the first move so whatever...she basically became non-existant in my world. The more someone demands attention from me, the more I'll ignore them.

[Christy B]

[QUOTE=jessica129;346659]I once worked with an older woman who I assume was ESFJ. I've never experienced such un-justified hatred from another person in my entire life. My very presence seemed to make her skin crawl. I found it very laughable and amusing.QUOTE]

This is the way the SLIs I know would handle a situation with strong Fe judgments. They would laugh about it, find it amusing, and absolutely refuse to budge when the Fe person started manipulating the Fe territory in order to get a reaction.

Edit: SLIs are cool. . .hahahah

[Lotus]

I'm a magnet for these comments. People have always referred to me as much worse things than what you have described...but it usually consists of being called "cold, bitchy and snobby". I let it bother me too much and it hurt my feelings a lot. I tried to be the exact opposite but that doesn't work. So, I stopped caring. 9 times out of 10 I want to be left alone anyway so it works. Sometimes it'll piss me off a lot and i'll say something equally ignorant in response but i've just gotten so accustomed to hearing negative remarks about how I come across that i don't give a damn anymore...rolls right off my back.

I'm supposed to value Fe but that doesn't mean I don't like people who are quiet. Quiet people are intriguing. The longer someone goes without talking to me, the more I'm interested for some reason. It makes me want to meet them and talk to them, or get them to notice me.

It just sucks when you finally do meet them, and learn they're not as interesting as you thought they were and you wasted your time pursuing them.


But yeah, I only perceive it as bitchiness if it's obvious. Like if you act irritated with me or if I smile at you and you just stare back or turn your head or something.



EDIT: And btw, SLIs are probably one of my favorite types irl

[meatburger]

Sli's are great like that though because when they do show they like you its more awesome. They are like a present that you slowly get to unwrap. Then it re-wraps itself again and you get to unwrap it again

[Lotus]

Sli's are great like that though because when they do show they like you its more awesome. They are like a present that you slowly get to unwrap. Then it re-wraps itself again and you get to unwrap it again

Yeah, that's the best part.

[Mediator Kam]

My new female friend is not ISTp anymore.

[jessica129]

EDIT: And btw, SLIs are probably one of my favorite types irl

I've noted I get along exceedingly well with ILE's. I think it's that semi-duality business people speak of. I enjoy them very much

[redbaron]

I was best friends with and then dated an SLI in high school and college. He was great--hugely misunderstood by many people but I was completely honored to be in his inner circle, and for so long too. I've never felt as respected (well, other than by my husband) by a guy as I did by him. I loved his quiet, mysterious ways. I also have a cousin who's SLI and he's great too. I think there's a sweetness that they let very few people see. So if they let you in then it's a big deal.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Yeah, that's the best part.

Care to unwrap me, allie?

[Lotus]

Care to unwrap me, allie?

Only if you make it a challenge for me.
So far you've been way too easy.

[JuJu]

Only if you make it a challenge for me.
So far you've been way too easy.

LOL

[Lobo]

I was in a car with my SLI and ILE friends (they didn't met each other before). For the entire trip my SLI friend kept very silent and inexpressive (usual business).

Later that day, when we were alone, my ILE friend started talking me about a book (he thinks) describes a lot of techniques to observe people and he said that my SLI friend:

* Is a very cold and calculating person.
* Is not to be trusted.
* Is probably a covert cheater.
* His lack of expression and reluctance to give away opinions about things reflects that he has "something to hide".

He obviously doesn't know anything about socionics. I believe such remarks would be a massive PoLR hit. How would you feel if a person said something like that about you?

Getting all of that from an initial interaction is impressive, but I would say that it's better to replace the statements with possibilities: "might be a covert cheater," "might have something to hide," etc. In all honesty, I have seen this applied to ISTps (more towards Te types), that's why I say that there is a possibility. I think it's smart to think of these things and keep them in the back of your mind, and if it turns out not to be true, then you just let them go; but if they are true, then you won't be surprised and hopefully you haven't set yourself up for pain. I've had to learn this the hard way, considering how trusting I can be.

LSE and SLI scare the shit out of me with how good they are at witholding things and being secretive, that I find it hard to trust them completely. I'm not saying that they are like that necessarily, but they sure have the potential for it.

[JuJu]

Getting all of that from an initial interaction is impressive, but I would say that it's better to replace the statements with possibilities: "might be a covert cheater," "might have something to hide," etc. In all honesty, I have seen this applied to ISTps (more towards Te types), that's why I say that there is a possibility. I think it's smart to think of these things and keep them in the back of your mind, and if it turns out not to be true, then you just let them go; but if they are true, then you won't be surprised and hopefully you haven't set yourself up for pain. I've had to learn this the hard way, considering how trusting I can be.

LSE and SLI scare the shit out of me with how good they are at witholding things and being secretive, that I find it hard to trust them completely. I'm not saying that they are like that necessarily, but they sure have the potential for it.

Sereno, if you have time, could you describe your experience with the SLI-Te? (My favorite type/subtype, btw... SLI-Te--they're hilarious!)

[Lobo]

Sereno, if you have time, could you describe your experience with the SLI-Te? (My favorite type/subtype, btw... SLI-Te--they're hilarious!)

You mean related to the topic of this thread or in general? It's hard for me make one cohesive paragraph to talk about a general experience, instead of something more specific. Questions would be better ... Yeah, creative writing is not my specialty of late. And I also find them to be very funny, at least one I know. We make each other laugh all the time.

[ScarlettLux]

Re: The bitchy ESE jessica described - I have met more than couple of ESEs who do the same thing when they feel "ignored." I have been victim to it myself. Just because I wasn't super friendly and all over her ("charmed" by her as others apparently are at first contact) ... she started trying to make my life miserable. She believed lots of preconceived notions, random rumors she supposedly heard about me. I don't trust her at all and probably never will. She is very vindictive and spiteful.

Her inferiority complex is extremely apparent and she constantly tries to make me feel bad .. an example of this ALWAYS occurs in groups of people. She goes out and does her major thing, and it's absolutely sickening to me b/c I don't see how these fools could fall for such a simpering, sweet act. But they do. And then she tries to wave it in my face as if saying - "lookie, look how many people I am friends with and that like me/talk to me!" Great. I'm so happy for you?

I don't really get along with ESEs, at all, and this was not the worst ESE I've met O__o ESEs really do try to control the social arena, and fake it to make it. It's just very weird to me how they can just all of a sudden act like they are someone's best friend to attempt to get on their good side. Ever heard of subtlety? Guess not.

I tend to approach people much more delicately and slowly. Otherwise it seems very rushed and insincere. I think this is what SLIs prefer. Something not all up in your face, which is what dominants tend to enjoy doing, and dominants respond well to. SLIs and ILIs I think need someone who sort of "does their own thing" while engaging them from time to time as well... one with and the other with of course. Then, as time passes, the relationship becomes more comfortable and closer.

Another thing I'd like to add about ESEs (sorry, I just am really bitter about a few) ... is that the ones I've known, tend to really throw away relationships VERY easily. They have even SAID so! One girl admits this is a huge flaw of hers. She makes friends really quickly, then lets them go equally as fast. What is the point in that? Perhaps this is what SLIs are attempting to avoid! And this is why they are holding up a wall.

[Lotus]

Re: The bitchy ESE jessica described - I have met more than couple of ESEs who do the same thing when they feel "ignored." I have been victim to it myself. Just because I wasn't super friendly and all over her ("charmed" by her as others apparently are at first contact) ... she started trying to make my life miserable. She believed lots of preconceived notions, random rumors she supposedly heard about me. I don't trust her at all and probably never will. She is very vindictive and spiteful.

Her inferiority complex is extremely apparent and she constantly tries to make me feel bad .. an example of this ALWAYS occurs in groups of people. She goes out and does her major thing, and it's absolutely sickening to me b/c I don't see how these fools could fall for such a simpering, sweet act. But they do. And then she tries to wave it in my face as if saying - "lookie, look how many people I am friends with and that like me/talk to me!" Great. I'm so happy for you?

I don't really get along with ESEs, at all, and this was not the worst ESE I've met O__o ESEs really do try to control the social arena, and fake it to make it. It's just very weird to me how they can just all of a sudden act like they are someone's best friend to attempt to get on their good side. Ever heard of subtlety? Guess not.

I tend to approach people much more delicately and slowly. Otherwise it seems very rushed and insincere. I think this is what SLIs prefer. Something not all up in your face, which is what dominants tend to enjoy doing, and dominants respond well to. SLIs and ILIs I think need someone who sort of "does their own thing" while engaging them from time to time as well... one with and the other with of course. Then, as time passes, the relationship becomes more comfortable and closer.

Another thing I'd like to add about ESEs (sorry, I just am really bitter about a few) ... is that the ones I've known, tend to really throw away relationships VERY easily. They have even SAID so! One girl admits this is a huge flaw of hers. She makes friends really quickly, then lets them go equally as fast. What is the point in that? Perhaps this is what SLIs are attempting to avoid! And this is why they are holding up a wall.

You're right though.
They don't like people who don't love them. It's a fact.

[JuJu]

You mean related to the topic of this thread or in general? It's hard for me make one cohesive paragraph to talk about a general experience, instead of something more specific. Questions would be better ... Yeah, creative writing is not my specialty of late. And I also find them to be very funny, at least one I know. We make each other laugh all the time.

oh ok just, how might that SLI-Te have been a covert cheater? And had something to hide? How did this SLI act while (maybe) doing these things and afterwards?

I don't even know if this makes any sense, I've been studying all day and I'm at least half-nuts right now.

[Lobo]

oh ok just, how might that SLI-Te have been a covert cheater? And had something to hide? How did this SLI act while (maybe) doing these things and afterwards?

I don't even know if this makes any sense, I've been studying all day and I'm at least half-nuts right now.

Well, I'd rather not get into specifics, but I can say a few things. The ability that I see in them to hide what they are feeling can be both a strength and a curse. You can see them laughing, seemingly having a great time, while at the same time they might be having a fight with someone using technology (cellphone, msn, etc). This is when I see it as a curse, since they might be able to get away with covert activities/things. Somebody who is the opposite, in that they can't hide what they feel, would seldom try sneaky things because it's so obvious. I don't know if this is making sense... It's like a disconnection from emotional things, when there is supposed to be emotionality.

Another thing is that I often hear SLI-Te's talk about "business," in that "it's none of my/your business." Or they don't go into specifics of what they do, it's usually a general statement: "I just went out." I think that what they might need is someone who indirectly forces them to open up. At least that's what I try to do, but trying to make them see that it's ok to do it, and that it's necessary in order to gain my trust in return. I don't know how ENFps handle the situation though. The way I see it is that just as how I've needed a good Te and Si slap to the face, they sometimes need a good Ne and Fi one too. However, these types of slaps done by a dual might not be the best idea, since they can hurt way too much.

[marooned]

For some reason I feel protective of PoLR... And my overall thoughts on SLI is that I like SLI. Yay. The end.

[JuJu]

The way I see it is that just as how I've needed a good Te and Si slap to the face, they sometimes need a good Ne and Fi one too. However, these types of slaps done by a dual might not be the best idea, since they can hurt way too much.

What I've quoted is some great phrasing on your part--and I find that it's very true. Frequently, I need a good Te/Si slap to the face. (Man I need to start dating an ISTp again...!)

As to what you wrote about SLI-Te's laughing w/ certain friend(s) while arguing w/ another--I've noticed this too. Begging the question, to Te types or any SLI: honestly, is this just a charade (i.e. you're laughing, but you're really hurting,) or are you really able to compartmentalize your lives to this degree? If the latter, then it's probably a blessing for the SLI, but a curse for anyone who might have to trust the SLI to be entirely open about their lives, (i.e. someone in a close relationship w/ him/her.)

I can't hide what I feel AT ALL--I suspect that it's like this for other ENFps..? It's all over my face, in my vocal inflections, and when I try to lie it's so damn obvious that other ppl have told me it's comical... It's a curse, haha!

As to the "none of your business" thing, I agree with that too; however, you're right, it's pretty natural, (in my experience anyway,) for an IEE to get an SLI to open up in such cases...

Thanks for sharing this--it's good info, and it's helping to increase my knowledge.

[misutii]

SLIs have always appeared as enigmatic and interesting yet chilled out people to me. It's like basically understood without talking to each other that we're too lazy to be each other's actual friend but non-the-less when we do end up in the same room we have IP solidarity and stick up for each other haha

Logical Fe-valuing types (i.e. ILEs, SLEs) would be more likely to make such judgments (mentioned in first post) probably because they have insecurities about actually understanding other people and so formulate seemingly logical conclusions based merely on surface observations (hope that sentence made sense)

[Christy B]

Sereno, if you have time, could you describe your experience with the SLI-Te? (My favorite type/subtype, btw... SLI-Te--they're hilarious!)

I love this type!!! I have known a few and when we talk it is pure madness. I think I have mistaken this type for my dual a few times because they are truly my activity partner (more so than Si subtype I think).

They are really good at hiding things though. Way too good, and they won't budge if you call them out on it. I think it must cause Si stress to lie or something, but Te won't hesitate as long as it saves their ass.

[Christy B]

It distresses me when I find an SLI lying - and I agree that in my general experience, the Te subtype seems to be harder to read and more 'on the verge' of subterfuge than the Si subtype. However, there is probably a good reason this type is the dual of the IEE, because I am always one of the first to figure out their lies, or to 'smell something fishy' going on and I seem to be able to call them out on it without them getting irritated and angry. One SLI-Te I knew laughed and seemed quite relaxed when I told him in a rather bland voice (with a mild smile, of course) that I didn't believe a word he said.

I think the lying/deception is the combination of Te-creative and Fe-PoLR. I suspect a lot of them tell certain lies simply because it will save the hassle of actually explaining their circumstances/motivations, or because they want a certain outcome and a lie is the easiest way to secure it. They seem to think 'well, no one is being hurt' by this - and often they're right in that I've never known an SLI to tell a lie that would get OTHER people into trouble or to harm their chances of doing something.

But what they don't realise that people ARE hurt by their lying - the Fe implications of their actions. That people, strangers to whom they feel they owe no Fi obligations, feel manipulated and disrespected. It hurst Fe-valuing people most because it's a blatant rejection of unspoken social rules of interaction. I think a lot of SLI's, if pushed to it, will just admit to lying but defend their actions as being essentially harmless. The hurt felt by Fe-types, according to SLIs is an irrational reaction - 'Why do they care if I lied about what I did yesterday? We're not even friends! The outcome is the same: I submitted my essay a day late.'

It doesn't HURT me when an SLI I don't have a personal relationship with lies, but it IRRITATES me when they, or I see them lying to someone else. I want to smack them on the head and tell them that they shouldn't treat people that way; or do that, both because it's going to have BAD repercussions for them but also because it's just a plain SHITTY thing to do. I think the IEE-SLI dynamic works because the IEE calls out the behaviour in an SLI that they think is shitty, rather than exploding at the SLI or freezing them out without explanation. The SLI really needs to have it explained why they can't behave the way they do, why it affects you and what you expect from them. But if they value you and you've explained everything clearly to them according to how it affects YOU (and not as 'because its a shitty way to behave generally'), they do seem to take being honest and accountable and open much more seriously.

You sweet IEE!!! Where were you when I was dating this Te subtype, to explain this to him so eloquently? I now know I am for sure not the dual of SLI-Te because I just get pissed and do generalize how lying is bad and try to stay out of it myself. Like I wanted to show him how its hurts all people when you lie, but this must have meant nothing to him. I wouldn’t have ever wanted, or thought, to say it was hurting ME, and so maybe he never knew it!!!

[unefille]

You sweet IEE!!! Where were you when I was dating this Te subtype, to explain this to him so eloquently? I now know I am for sure not the dual of SLI-Te because I just get pissed and do generalize how lying is bad and try to stay out of it myself. Like I wanted to show him how its hurts all people when you lie, but this must have meant nothing to him. I wouldn’t have ever wanted, or thought, to say it was hurting ME, and so maybe he never knew it!!!

<3

Although I can't say for sure, I think your response would definitely have more impact on an LSE? Maybe I'll prod my LSE friend to respond herself, but they generally seem more concerned with 'doing the right/ethical' thing? Or actually...

The LSE I know, in her relationship dynamics, tends to place people she's invested in on a pedestal (which is something I don't do, hence my instinct to call out the SLI when they're misbehaving). I think a consequence of this idealisation is a fierce desire to protect the person they love and to also be seen as WORTHY of this person (usually EII fits the criteria for 'who to idealise' best for an LSE). THUS, an EII's reaction that they were doing something shitty and unethical and BAD, would have a very resounding effect on the psyche of the LSE.

They bonds of affection between an IEE and SLI are altogether different I think. I know I have no problem being emotionally invested in someone and acknowledging that they're incredibly flawed, which is why pointing out that an SLI is doing something BAD has less effect then letting them know that it is not only BAD but ALSO HURTFUL TO YOU, because for an IEE, the two ('bad' and 'damaging how I feel about SLI') doesn't always correlate.

[xyz]

Shit they're on to us!

RUN

"I think the lying/deception is the combination of Te-creative and Fe-PoLR. I suspect a lot of them tell certain lies simply because it will save the hassle of actually explaining their circumstances/motivations, or because they want a certain outcome and a lie is the easiest way to secure it. "

[Christy B]

Shit they're on to us!

RUN

"I think the lying/deception is the combination of Te-creative and Fe-PoLR. I suspect a lot of them tell certain lies simply because it will save the hassle of actually explaining their circumstances/motivations, or because they want a certain outcome and a lie is the easiest way to secure it. "

Hey. The lie is a tool just like anything else, right?