Stages of development

[krieger]

Warrior -> Worker -> Associate -> Intellectual -> Philosopher -> Artist

Negative circumstances tend to make a person degenerate towards the left end of the spectrum. The person's will is to climb as far to the right end of it as possible.

Warrior stage: the person's immediate survival is in question to the point s/he needs to fight to earn it.
Worker stage: the person's immediate survival is guaranteed, but imminent threats compell him/her to be continually engaged in physical work to remain safe.
Associate stage: the person's immediate and future survival are guaranteed, but dependent on the success of the society s/he is a member of. Cooperation and coordination are at the height of their importance as the person makes agreements and bussiness deals to do his/her part in keeping the society athriving, reaping personal success in the process.
Intellectual stage: the society's survival is guaranteed on a short term basis but faces threats in the bigger scheme of things. Scientific thought develops to counter large-scale threats and create solutions to the associated problems.
Philosopher stage: all perceptible threats to the society's survival are dealt with to the point only threats on a "what-if" basis remain to be explored.
Artist stage: all is peaceful, safe and tranquil. The person is capable of devoting themselves to the exploration and spread of forms of beauty, happiness and culture until one of their projects reveals problems to be dealt with in the lower stages.

Western society spends most of it's time in the stages at and above Associate.

The state of being a third world country is defined by the constant dominance of Warrior stage challenges. Second world countries are generally stuck between Worker and Associate.

Crime is the existence of Warrior stage challenges in an otherwise more developed type of society.

Thoughts?

[tcaudilllg]

I like this. Interesting stuff.

[krieger]

I've already spotted a flaw in my writing: the way I currently explain the stages, each of the stages defines it's activity in terms of the stage preceeding it (from left to right). It also works the other way around. I already allude to this in the description of the artist stage. An artistic drive can define a philosophical problem, which in turn can seek it's solution in the intellect, etc.

[krieger]

deleted.

[crazedrat]

so is crime a necessary economic resolution, in the same way work is necessary? will government eventually seek to minimize even higher levels? What would that be like? Do we have to lessen our appreciation of art in order to be productive in our lives? Interesting stuff, anyway.

[krieger]

so is crime a necessary economic resolution, in the same way work is necessary?

It's not such a radical thing to believe when you think about it. Suppose you're tasked with hammering a bunch of nails into a board. You don't get paid if the job doesn't get done and starve to death without the money. There is only one hammer and another guy is in a similar situation. Now you have to fight him to survive...

Usually the "fighting" gets done before any working starts, though. Most of the fighting that our societies are based on has been done centuries ago. We thrive on a legacy of violence that way.

will government eventually seek to minimize even higher levels?

I consider that quite likely. It's already doing that now. As I said in the first line of the explanation, individuals seek to increase their own level of development. When individuals work together, the organization increases that of it's members.

What would that be like?

Less work, more fun. If your life is anything like mine, you probably spend a portion of it working or meeting requirements for things like school and another "wasting" time on things like this forum. As society moves to the right end of the spectrum, you would spend more time doing the latter and less doing the former.

Do we have to lessen our appreciation of art in order to be productive in our lives?

Productive towards what end? When you're trying to answer that question, you draw on your "appreciation of art". It all fits together in the end.

[ArchonAlarion]

I'd argue that socialism slides to the left.

It initiates government actions that coerce the population to take part in semi-monopolistic markets. That is just putting people into a zero sum game of force, which would require people to make decisions based on how much they fear the might of the state.

"Worker stage: the person's immediate survival is guaranteed, but imminent threats compell him/her to be continually engaged in physical work to remain safe."

The imminent threat of being punished for non-compliance with the state's monopoly compells individuals to obey the state and work for higher taxes and lower quality.

So, no.

[krieger]

I'd argue that socialism slides to the left.

Maybe, but that would mean it fails to meet it's stated goals. I only spoke of it's intent.

[krieger]

Removed the comment on socialism. I'm not sure how accurate it was to begin with and don't want to involve political statements in this stuff.

[Azeroffs]

It seem that the artist stage is unreachable even in theory. There are always what-ifs, and always will be at least in the foreseeable future.

[ArchonAlarion]

maybe you just are stuck on the philosophic stage?

[tcaudilllg]

It would seem to me that the artist stage generates threats by being too uninhibited, meaning that the artist stage is the only stage which facilitates its own regression.

A responsible society would never advance to the artist stage.

I think that there is a lot you can do with this labcoat. Keep at it.

[Azeroffs]

It would seem to me that the artist stage generates threats by being too uninhibited, meaning that the artist stage is the only stage which facilitates its own regression.

A responsible society would never advance to the artist stage.

I think that there is a lot you can do with this labcoat. Keep at it.

That makes sense. When you're at the top, the only way to go is down. So you can reach the artist stage, but you're doomed to fall back down given time.

[krieger]

It seem that the artist stage is unreachable even in theory. There are always what-ifs, and always will be at least in the foreseeable future.

Makes sense.

On the other hand, I could argue that for a lot of people, the artist stage is the one that is hardest to get out of. Suppose you're living in a "garden of eden" type of environment, everything you want is there and you have no practical wishes and plenty of time to dream, why would you do any work at all?

[krieger]

Another thing I should remark: the discrete, catagorical presentation is just there to make the progression along the scale easier to describe. In reality I envision the scale to be continuous.

[tcaudilllg]

Another thing I should remark: the discrete, catagorical presentation is just there to make the progression along the scale easier to describe. In reality I envision the scale to be continuous.

Shouldn't there be like thresholds -- minimum conditions for the advance from one stage to another?

[krieger]

You could name an infinite number of thresholds and call the stretches they demarcate "stages". Like I said, the scale itself is continuous.

[tcaudilllg]

You could name an infinite number of thresholds and call the stretches they demarcate "stages". Like I said, the scale itself is continuous.

Here's a question: if we were to localize this idea to an element or elements, which elements would it be?

[crazedrat]

the progress from temperament, to types, to subtypes, and so fourth. but the type of a person would be measured from the standpoint of society as a whole and their utility within it. what we see is an elevation of complexity on the whole.
the artist stage is too simple of a category. there are other ways of high functioning. the development of elite technology for example .. why do we go to saturn? a person can do philosophy for fun, even philosophize about art .. a person can work on a project for fun, like make video games. etc.

[tcaudilllg]

the progress from temperament, to types, to subtypes, and so fourth. but the type of a person would be measured from the standpoint of society as a whole and their utility within it. also, i suspect the artist stage is too simple of a category. there are other kinds of high functioning. the development of elite technology for example .. creating technology for its own sake. for example why do we go to saturn? a person can do philosophy for fun as well. a person can work on a project for fun.. for example making a video game. etc.

In labcoat's view, "artistry" is just a catch-all for activities done for their own sake.

[crazedrat]

though they're not done entirely for their own sake; but it's now more difficult to see the purpose they serve for us, society being so much more complicated than it was before.. there is a reason we are exploring space and playing video games and trying to understand art. what is the point of fighting for survival in the warrior stage, anyway? What is the point of survival at all?

[tcaudilllg]

though they're not done entirely for their own sake, but it's now more difficult to see the purpose serve for us, society being so much more complicated than it was before..

No, the only purpose at that stage is their utility as mediums of self-expression. The design of the technology itself becomes an expression of the self. Labcoat is basically saying that without threats to focus the mind, people become stupid and create threats to themselves inadvertently.

"Dystopia" is the appropriate term.

[crazedrat]

No, the only purpose at that stage is their utility as mediums of self-expression. The design of the technology itself becomes an expression of the self. Labcoat is basically saying that without threats to focus the mind, people become stupid and create threats to themselves inadvertently.

the threats are real, they're only complicated and socialized threats. a person fantasizes of becoming a rock star from the scars of their school days, a person works to explore space clinging to some hope for the future of humanity, a person struggles to understand art so they can express the dissonance they see around them..

[tcaudilllg]

On the other hand, crises reveal the depth of a situation more clearly than do non-crises. If you create a situation to test a model, allowing the subjects to know they are being tested all the while, will their behavior surpass the model?

Reminds one of Star Trek's "Q", does it not?

[krieger]

the progress from temperament, to types, to subtypes, and so fourth. but the type of a person would be measured from the standpoint of society as a whole and their utility within it. what we see is an elevation of complexity on the whole.

Hmm, interesting. I'm have to think about this.

the artist stage is too simple of a category. there are other ways of high functioning. the development of elite technology for example .. why do we go to saturn? a person can do philosophy for fun, even philosophize about art .. a person can work on a project for fun, like make video games. etc.

Yeah, like tcaudilllg said, it's the closest thing to a term I could find that describes what abstract kind of mentality I have in mind for it. The stage is about all pursuits that are done for their own sake - or rather, the chief motivations for these pursuits. "Working on a project for fun" is what it's all about.

Labcoat is basically saying that without threats to focus the mind, people become stupid and create threats to themselves inadvertently.

It's more like people highten their standards and suddenly find repugnance in things that used to be accetable to them.

[krieger]

though they're not done entirely for their own sake; but it's now more difficult to see the purpose they serve for us, society being so much more complicated than it was before.. there is a reason we are exploring space and playing video games and trying to understand art. what is the point of fighting for survival in the warrior stage, anyway? What is the point of survival at all?

I don't know. Why haven't you killed yourself yet or let yourself die? These questions should have the same answer, right?

[FDG]

there are other ways of high functioning. the development of elite technology for example .. why do we go to saturn?

I suppose that technology which isn't aimed at providing for our basic/secondary needs can be considered as a form of art. So, space exploration, in many ways (excluding, for the moment, that it's done to demonstrate national superiority), would pertain to the end-state.

[Azeroffs]

I don't know. Why haven't you killed yourself yet or let yourself die? These questions should have the same answer, right?

I think what crazedrat is saying is that when things seem to be done for the sake of themselves it is really to fill some psychological void, therefore it is not for the sake of itself. There's no inherent worth in activity of any sort. It's only valuable because it is needed/wanted for unapparent reasons.

[Gilly]

I suppose that technology which isn't aimed at providing for our basic/secondary needs can be considered as a form of art. So, space exploration, in many ways (excluding, for the moment, that it's done to demonstrate national superiority), would pertain to the end-state.

Not completely; it's also a scientific pursuit relevant to ensuring our long-term security as a "society."

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

This feels too...simplistic or something.

The warrior in you is always in you, even when you're being artistic, you are being a warrior. I just don't think you can....split up the psyche like this.

And USA doesn't value art or philosophy or intellect what a joke, it values people buying shit they don't need so the people who are in power can stay in power. Social challenges exist but are mostly a distraction to the economic unfairness in the world. Did you ever think why they didn't teach you economics in school? They want people to know their place. If you have a lot of shit and are born into a powerful bloodline you are going to do everything possible to stay in power, which of course means creating a social mask for others and pretending to care about the world as a whole so people don't start getting angry at you and rebelling and looting your stuff.

The idiot homophobic sociopath warmongering george bush feigned being 'just one of the guys u can drink a beer with' to get votes and it worked.

How does Dumbya get to be president of the USA values intellect, philosophy and art? I know his term is already gone and he will go down as the worst president in history but come on!

[krieger]

This feels too...simplistic or something.

The point of a model is to simplify things.

The warrior in you is always in you, even when you're being artistic, you are being a warrior. I just don't think you can....split up the psyche like this.

I disagree. In the sense that I discuss the term "warrior" here, it should not be involved in the creation of art at all. True art is devoid of vocational content. In as far as people make compromises between artistic drive and practical necessities, they engage in "Associate" or "Intellectual" stage behaviors. If your point was that a lot of things that are called "art" are actually produced from either of these mentalities then I see no reason to disagree.

And USA doesn't value art or philosophy or intellect what a joke, it values people buying shit they don't need so the people who are in power can stay in power. Social challenges exist but are mostly a distraction to the economic unfairness in the world. Did you ever think why they didn't teach you economics in school? They want people to know their place. If you have a lot of shit and are born into a powerful bloodline you are going to do everything possible to stay in power, which of course means creating a social mask for others and pretending to care about the world as a whole so people don't start getting angry at you and rebelling and looting your stuff.

The idiot homophobic sociopath warmongering george bush feigned being 'just one of the guys u can drink a beer with' to get votes and it worked.

How does Dumbya get to be president of the USA values intellect, philosophy and art? I know his term is already gone and he will go down as the worst president in history but come on!

Sounds like you're arguing that the USA is stuck in the "associate" stage.

[krieger]

Here's a question: if we were to localize this idea to an element or elements, which elements would it be?

The best I can manage is:

Warrior, Worker: ST club
Associate: SF club
Intellect, Philosopher: NT club
Philosopher, Artist: NF club

But that doesn't give rise to a sequence that makes sense in the rest of socionics, so I think it's a red herring.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Warrior -> Worker -> Associate -> Intellectual -> Philosopher -> Artist

Negative circumstances tend to make a person degenerate towards the left end of the spectrum. The person's will is to climb as far to the right end of it as possible.

Warrior stage: the person's immediate survival is in question to the point s/he needs to fight to earn it.
Worker stage: the person's immediate survival is guaranteed, but imminent threats compell him/her to be continually engaged in physical work to remain safe.
Associate stage: the person's immediate and future survival are guaranteed, but dependent on the success of the society s/he is a member of. Cooperation and coordination are at the height of their importance as the person makes agreements and bussiness deals to do his/her part in keeping the society athriving, reaping personal success in the process.
Intellectual stage: the society's survival is guaranteed on a short term basis but faces threats in the bigger scheme of things. Scientific thought develops to counter large-scale threats and create solutions to the associated problems.
Philosopher stage: all perceptible threats to the society's survival are dealt with to the point only threats on a "what-if" basis remain to be explored.
Artist stage: all is peaceful, safe and tranquil. The person is capable of devoting themselves to the exploration and spread of forms of beauty, happiness and culture until one of their projects reveals problems to be dealt with in the lower stages.

Western society spends most of it's time in the stages at and above Associate.

The state of being a third world country is defined by the constant dominance of Warrior stage challenges. Second world countries are generally stuck between Worker and Associate.

Crime is the existence of Warrior stage challenges in an otherwise more developed type of society.

Thoughts?

This sounds a bit like maslows pyramid

[krieger]

This sounds a bit like maslows pyramid

I agree. It describes the same phenomenom. Maslow has strange ideas about "belonging" being a human need, though. Something that I don't think is true of all people.

[Jarno]

Warrior -> Worker -> Associate -> Intellectual -> Philosopher -> Artist -> Chuck Norris

You forgot the final stage, so I have added it. ^

[krieger]

Lol, thanks. It has my approval.

[xerx]

I agree. It describes the same phenomenom. Maslow has strange ideas about "belonging" being a human need, though. Something that I don't think is true of all people.

I endorse your system and I especially agree with this. Belonging is more of an interesting luxury than a need for me.

[krieger]

What I think he means by "belonging" is closer to "involvement"... But that doesn't change the fact that he names and describes the concept the wrong way in my view.

It's like he's saying that my posting on this forum makes me belong to the forum. Nah. It just makes me involved in it.

I do think this kind of involvement is a human need. This is visible in the way elderly people can physically deteriorate from not being involved in anything.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[crazedrat]

good descriptions but the chronology is arbitrary