Do ILEs have no self-concept?

[Creepy-Snaps]

Was thinking about posting this in the Alpha forum, but this is still more of a type-me thread. I'm doubting my self-typing of LSE or ESTj now, and strongly considering ILE or ENTp. I could bore you with the reasons why ESTj and ENTp seemed similar to me, but that would be taking away from the big picture. Truth is I've flip-flopped over thinking I was several different personality types the past several months. I read descriptions, and I was drawn to thinking different things... but after reading Reinin's lately, it occurred to me, that perhaps my complete unawareness of who I really am could be the greatest clue to my type.

"Function #-1 – subjective intuition ( ): ignoring the integrity of internal situation. This is the lack of ability to plunge in thought. A Don Quixote finds it hard to plunge deep into him/herself and search the inner mechanisms of the soul. "What do you mean, 'analyze the internal situation'?" Hamlet enjoys this creative area of self, but a Don Quixote runs from it. He knows nothing about it.
This is a potential area for problems. When a Don Quixote is asked to look inside of him/herself, he is lost because he/she does not think this way. They do not understand what is required of them because their IM structure ignores this area completely. Relationships with other people come easy for them. It is easy for them to deal with other people’s problems. But their inner world is beyond their understanding."

Basically, since Ne is such a strong 1st function, understanding the outer world and others, Ni is very weak as the 7th function, lacking understanding of things internally.

Whenever people ask me to describe myself, I freeze up. I could see both sides to everything. I remember taking the MBTI 2 years ago, before I found out about socionics, and taking over 2 hours to complete a test about myself! I over-thunk everything. Even one of the most basic questions testing for introversion versus extroversion, 'Do you normally introduce people to each other, or get introduced to people?' I spent 15 minutes on that question alone, trying to think of previous times, examples of both, and not knowing what that really meant about me. After finishing the test, I felt like I had no idea who I really was.

I was also wondering if the above paragraph is an example of Ti shifting into gear. While Ne is incapable of explaining one's self, Ti tries to reason, to solve. I think of understanding myself like figuring out a puzzle. I think this is different than ENFp's way of compensating for what Ne can't explain. ENFp's shift to Fi to explain themselves, thinking about their feelings and emotions to understand who they are. Taken from personalitycafe:

"Never ask an ENFp to describe him or herself. Do you have a couple of days? What you will end up with is a vast collection of interesting contradictions. Why is that? It is because of the particular nature of this creative, unusual person."

Soooooo... that's one-half of my consideration for ENTp, the downside to having a strong Ne. The other half is the downside to having a strong Ti. In other words, having a weak Te. Also taken from Reinin's Book:

"Function #-2 – objective logic ( ): the zone of norms and standards, of law and order. “I don’t think a whole lot about the order, but since I live here, I naturally obey it”. The logic of the external world, laws, indisputable circumstances - in short, everything that does not require interpretation, falls in the category of standards. Traffic rules, criminal code, other social conventions go without saying for a Don Quixote. This area is not creative."....."He always struggles with social requirements, especially if they don’t make any sense. However, he understands that it is necessary to go through the basic training, so to speak, to get a permission to do the “free program”. So he has to waste time and energy on writing a thesis before he gets to do the real thing. A Don Quixote type is least adapted to social competition."

The part about struggling with social requirements, especially if they don't make sense... I have two examples for that.

When learning to drive, I didn't understand why someone should stop at a Stop sign if there is absolutely nobody else at the intersection. (I grew up in a very small town with practically no traffic at all.) After all, it doesn't hurt anybody if I'm going at a slow enough speed that I honestly check first before driving through the intersection, so why's it a problem? At first I followed the law to a T when learning, then questioned it and rebelled a bit, then decided to just follow it anyway, because I figured it was the right thing to do, to just go along, and I didn't want to face any bad consequences, ie. ticket, whatever. In fact, my whole life I've been very reluctant to break any kind of rules. I even looked down on friends in school who skipped class. Is that weak Te? Te being the 8th function of ENTp's, not being creative at all? Maybe that's why ENTp's can come across as nerdy sometimes, always going along with what they're told. And having a hard time 'going along' if they don't understand something.

My other example is not understanding the idea of "shotgunning" at parties. I thought it was a massive party foul to waste so much alcohol! Then my friend explained it's more about not "looking like a pussy" he said, if you can't drink quickly enough. So I went along and tried it. Another example of weak Te? Usually going along with things, but having a bit of trouble, if you don't understand something?

Also, the last part of the weak Te description, "So he has to waste time and energy on writing a thesis before he gets to do the real thing. A Don Quixote type is least adapted to social competition." I have two examples of that as well.

First, as smart as I am, I struggled with the idea of writing a resume. Why should I highlight my strong points? Isn't that bragging? Isn't that unethical to gloat about? One professor in college explained that there's nothing wrong at all with saying what you're good at, and marketing yourself. I get that, although it doesn't come naturally at all. In what ways am I better than other people? I'm not even sure... maybe that's another example of weak Ni, needing to understand myself in order to compare myself to other people with Te? I also despite networking events, loathe them, think they're so cheesy... where it's all about marketing yourself. Anyway, I'm getting off-topic.

My second example of ILE's being the "least adapted to social competition", is not being aggressive going after a girl, if there's another guy who's interested. It's the same idea as the resumes. Why am I better than someone else? It takes too much time and energy for me to answer that question, much less think of a way to convince someone else. I shy away from competition. In fact, I'll only even consider girls who are single... maybe that's somewhat related to Feeling and ethics as a function, but maybe it's still an example of weak Te... twice in college, girls who were unhappy with their boyfriends liked me, and we hung out for a bit, but then both times I broke it off. I didn't think it was right, and didn't like competing with another guy for the girl's heart, and couldn't trust that girl to be mine if she would cheat like that. One of the first questions I ask when meeting and flirting with a girl is if she's single... maybe that's a bit lame, ruins the fun of flirting/courtship a bit, but it's important to me. I don't cheat. Lol I'm getting way off-topic again, but maybe that's an inner sign of weak Te? Valuing monogamous relationships because I can't stand the idea of competing? Btw, I gotta mention, if I know a girl's mine, I'll stand up for her on every occasion, without fear, against someone else. It's more of the marketing/comparing myself to someone else that I don't like.

ANYWAY... this thing's long enough. ILE's, can you relate to any of these examples? Anyone with a strong Ne, can you relate to having a hard time figuring out your type because of not knowing who you are? Anyone with a strong Ni find it silly that I don't understand myself fully, and am always questioning to some degree? Maybe if people can or cannot relate based on their types, it'll give me a better understanding of what I think is Ne versus Ni or Te versus Ti, what they’re all about...

Or maybe I'm completely wrong in understanding myself again, this time as ENTp, and might be something else completely...

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's the fi polr you're sensing. They have no self-concept cause they're too busy alpha-ishly connecting to as many sources as possible, like alphas do.

[Azeroffs]

A lot of people have weak sense of self, especially when it's under the microscope of typology. I think extroverts in general tend to have a weaker self concept, but I think it's more of a general human trait. It was mentioned that EIE "enjoys this creative area of self" but I think that's just it is that they manufacture that sense of self. I certainly relate to that. My identity has, through my life, essentially been whatever I decided it to be for the most part. I have terribly difficult time describing myself because I feel like I'm making stuff up as I go along sometimes. I do type as an e3 though, and I have my own identity issues.

And as for Te-demonstrative defaulting on following the laws and norms of society... If there was any type I'd not expect that from, it would be xLE. FYI, Te-demonstrative isn't weak Te, it's strong/devalued.

It's the fi polr you're sensing. They have no self-concept cause they're too busy alpha-ishly connecting to as many sources as possible, like alphas do.

Yeah, it might be related to weak Fi as well.


To sum up, I have no idea what type you are, except maybe that ExTx makes some sense, and I prefer ExTj.

[Absurd]

Damn. You wrote much. Take a test. It might solidify the typing or not.

[Crispy]

Most of what you wrote sounds Judicious (especially non-Se-Valuing). So you could probably narrow it down to Alpha/Delta. I still think you VI Alpha Extrovert, especially the extrovert part. Also, that "Don't Drink and Derive" T-shirt seems to be NT Humor.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

IIRC, the 7th function is not weak but considered irrelevant to one's lifestyle.

[Creepy-Snaps]

It's the fi polr you're sensing. They have no self-concept cause they're too busy alpha-ishly connecting to as many sources as possible, like alphas do.

The Fi PoLR in... ENTps you mean? ESTjs have Fi PoLR, their 5th function, whereas the 5th function of ENTps is Si. So, are you saying you still think I'm ESTj? Or do you mean Fi in ENTps regardless. In Reinin's Book, the functions are in a different order compared to socionics, and much more typical of Myers-Briggs.

A lot of people have weak sense of self, especially when it's under the microscope of typology. I think extroverts in general tend to have a weaker self concept, but I think it's more of a general human trait. It was mentioned that EIE "enjoys this creative area of self" but I think that's just it is that they manufacture that sense of self. I certainly relate to that. My identity has, through my life, essentially been whatever I decided it to be for the most part. I have terribly difficult time describing myself because I feel like I'm making stuff up as I go along sometimes. I do type as an e3 though, and I have my own identity issues.

And as for Te-demonstrative defaulting on following the laws and norms of society... If there was any type I'd not expect that from, it would be xLE. FYI, Te-demonstrative isn't weak Te, it's strong/devalued.



Yeah, it might be related to weak Fi as well.


To sum up, I have no idea what type you are, except maybe that ExTx makes some sense, and I prefer ExTj.

Did you mean EIE as another example? Or was that a typo, talking about IEEs like I mentioned in my post. And yes, like I said, I have a tough time describing myself as well, and another person on this forum had typed me as enneagram 3 as well.

Maybe in terms of following the norms of society, that would be atypical of ILEs. I have been known to be eccentric. Maybe my example was bad because it was a law? Or concrete rules, no desire to change.

Damn. You wrote much. Take a test. It might solidify the typing or not.

I did write a lot, which makes me wonder if you read all of it. In my post I mention how taking tests doesn't work, since I don't understand myself that well.

Most of what you wrote sounds Judicious (especially non-Se-Valuing). So you could probably narrow it down to Alpha/Delta. I still think you VI Alpha Extrovert, especially the extrovert part. Also, that "Don't Drink and Derive" T-shirt seems to be NT Humor.

Yes, I remember you were one of the first people to post on my VI thread. And as of right now I think you may be right, but I'm trying to see what other people think yet. Lol and yes, I do have a very corny sense of humor, and enjoy plays on words.

IIRC, the 7th function is not weak but considered irrelevant to one's lifestyle.

Interesting! I'll have to think about this and try to examine myself more. Just to note, the 7th function of ENTp is Ni, whereas the 7th function of ESTj is Ti.

[Azeroffs]

The Fi PoLR in... ENTps you mean? ESTjs have Fi PoLR, their 5th function, whereas the 5th function of ENTps is Si. So, are you saying you still think I'm ESTj? Or do you mean Fi in ENTps regardless. In Reinin's Book, the functions are in a different order compared to socionics, and much more typical of Myers-Briggs.

Fi-PoLR is ExTp. Fi-suggestive is ExTj.

Did you mean EIE as another example? Or was that a typo, talking about IEEs like I mentioned in my post. And yes, like I said, I have a tough time describing myself as well, and another person on this forum had typed me as enneagram 3 as well.

A Don Quixote finds it hard to plunge deep into him/herself and search the inner mechanisms of the soul. "What do you mean, 'analyze the internal situation'?" Hamlet enjoys this creative area of self, but a Don Quixote runs from it. He knows nothing about it.

Hamlet = EIE

Maybe in terms of following the norms of society, that would be atypical of ILEs. I have been known to be eccentric. Maybe my example was bad because it was a law? Or concrete rules, no desire to change.

Imo, it isn't particularly type related. Everyone needs to follow laws and feels that everyone should follow the laws they abide by. xLEs do have a somewhat chaotic nature, but that doesn't necessarily mean they never follow norms.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Interesting! I'll have to think about this and try to examine myself more. Just to note, the 7th function of ENTp is Ni, whereas the 7th function of ESTj is Ti.

I am aware of this. In Model A, the 7th function is the Ignoring function. Being in the Id, it is strong but unvalued.

[Creepy-Snaps]

The Fi PoLR in... ENTps you mean? ESTjs have Fi PoLR, their 5th function, whereas the 5th function of ENTps is Si.

Fi-PoLR is ExTp. Fi-suggestive is ExTj.

Yes, you are correct. My mistake, I thought PoLR was the 5th function, but it's actually the 4th! I'm still learning.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Marie84]

A lot of what you're describing about not being able to evaluate yourself and articulate your feelings just sounds like weak ethics in general /
Logical extroverted types (LIE, LSE, ILE and SLE) seem to have the greatest difficulties with related issues, that could be self-evaluation of internal feelings, feelings towards others and how others feel towards them and understanding their own and others impact in the sphere of relationships (the last part more so with LSE and SLE, due to weak intuition)

I'm probably being rather vague here, but I don't have a lot of time atm so I might expand on this latter

[717495]

What's a self-concept? I guess I do, I know I don't like partying or drinking, nor do I care for loud things like motorcycles. My self-concept is reminiscent of the old folklore "Sinbad the Sailor."

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

"Function #-2 – objective logic ( ): the zone of norms and standards, of law and order. “I don’t think a whole lot about the order, but since I live here, I naturally obey it”. The logic of the external world, laws, indisputable circumstances - in short, everything that does not require interpretation, falls in the category of standards. Traffic rules, criminal code, other social conventions go without saying for a Don Quixote. This area is not creative."....."He always struggles with social requirements, especially if they don’t make any sense. However, he understands that it is necessary to go through the basic training, so to speak, to get a permission to do the “free program”. So he has to waste time and energy on writing a thesis before he gets to do the real thing. A Don Quixote type is least adapted to social competition."

So Reinin associates arbitary laws and rules with Te? I love this. The association between such rules and Ti that all the sheeple on this forum keep making is obviously bogus.

[Creepy-Snaps]

A lot of what you're describing about not being able to evaluate yourself and articulate your feelings just sounds like weak ethics in general /
Logical extroverted types (LIE, LSE, ILE and SLE) seem to have the greatest difficulties with related issues, that could be self-evaluation of internal feelings, feelings towards others and how others feel towards them and understanding their own and others impact in the sphere of relationships (the last part more so with LSE and SLE, due to weak intuition)

I'm probably being rather vague here, but I don't have a lot of time atm so I might expand on this latter

Mmm yes thank you! I think I can describe myself, which I guess means I do have a self-concept, but for some reason I find it incredibly boring. And I get extremely bored when other people talk about who they are as people. But strangely, I love figuring out who other people are! When it becomes less of just saying you are as a given fact, and more trying to figure someone out like a puzzle almost lol, it gets more interesting!

What's a self-concept? I guess I do, I know I don't like partying or drinking, nor do I care for loud things like motorcycles. My self-concept is reminiscent of the old folklore "Sinbad the Sailor."

Yeah, having an idea who you are basically, is what I mean by self-concept. Having an internal understanding of yourself, knowing your positive traits and bad traits, what you like and dislike, how you would react in different situations, etc. I think we all tend to know ourselves better as we get older... but I was wondering if ENTp's or other types in general are better/worse at knowing themselves, or even caring about discovering themselves... which I've read more and describes the Ignoring function pretty well, the 7th function of ENTp's, Ni.

Removed at User Request

I think I remember reading someone ask if I was really a "doer" based upon what I wrote before... wasn't sure if it was you Pied Piper, and you just removed your comment, but. I don't get much done at all lol. The ENTp description of starting a lot of different things and then failing to get any one thing done... fits me quite well haha. I don't know what example I had in mind when I called myself a "doer" before, but maybe I was just thinking in general about taking initiative, of starting things, just typical Extroversion.

So Reinin associates arbitary laws and rules with Te? I love this. The association between such rules and Ti that all the sheeple on this forum keep making is obviously bogus.

Yes, it's interesting isn't it? And it makes sense, because laws and rules are outside of your own domain of control, ie. the outer world.

[Absurd]

I did write a lot, which makes me wonder if you read all of it. In my post I mention how taking tests doesn't work, since I don't understand myself that well.

I didn't, sorry.

It's not about understanding - it's about taking a test. A leap of faith.

[Marie84]

Mmm yes thank you! I think I can describe myself, which I guess means I do have a self-concept, but for some reason I find it incredibly boring. And I get extremely bored when other people talk about who they are as people. But strangely, I love figuring out who other people are! When it becomes less of just saying you are as a given fact, and more trying to figure someone out like a puzzle almost lol, it gets more interesting!

IMU, Fi PoLR/Vulnerables don't feel comfortable evaluating people outside of surface behavior nor do they want to be evaluated themselves, they'd rather it not even be an issue and do their best to ignore having to deal with their own and others 'internal states'
From a personal observation; one of the biggest problem I've had being raised by an Fi PoLR (ILE in this case) is that there was a complete lack of wanting to understand, connect and bond outside of superficiality.

It's like a complete indifference towards people outside of external projections, which is pretty characteristic of Fi PoLR types, and they can sabotage a lot of personal relationships because of this, and in many cases, believe they were justified in doing so

[Blaze]

IMU, Fi PoLR/Vulnerables don't feel comfortable evaluating people outside of surface behavior nor do they want to be evaluated themselves, they'd rather it not even be an issue and do their best to ignore having to deal with their own and others 'internal states'
From a personal observation; one of the biggest problem I've had being raised by an Fi PoLR (ILE in this case) is that there was a complete lack of wanting to understand, connect and bond outside of superficiality.

It's like a complete indifference towards people outside of external projections, which is pretty characteristic of Fi PoLR types, and they can sabotage a lot of personal relationships because of this, and in many cases, believe they were justified in doing so

Fi polr is more like a lack of comprehension of the subtleties of personal relationships and to be truthful, the not so subtle. ILE simply doesn´t think in those terms. ILE is too busy trying to understand the unknown phenomena of the material and theoretical world. so ILE, who doesn´t perceive or interpret relationship information well, will constantly make social blunders and commit relational faux pas.

that being said, ILE has a deep personal commitment to equality of people. ILE will accept anyone on the basis that they are a human being and worth something. ILE will talk to anyone and consider their point of view no matter what their so called relational position in the hierarchy is. relational hierarchy is anathema to ILE. pecking orders, popularity, social manipulation etc all are deeply distasteful to ILE.

[Suz]

Was thinking about posting this in the Alpha forum, but this is still more of a type-me thread. I'm doubting my self-typing of LSE or ESTj now, and strongly considering ILE or ENTp. I could bore you with the reasons why ESTj and ENTp seemed similar to me, but that would be taking away from the big picture. Truth is I've flip-flopped over thinking I was several different personality types the past several months. I read descriptions, and I was drawn to thinking different things... but after reading Reinin's lately, it occurred to me, that perhaps my complete unawareness of who I really am could be the greatest clue to my type.

Like I later saw you already mentioned, ENFp's have this problem too. When I first started learning about socionics, I thought I was IEI (INFp), i could have SWORN the description fit me to a T. Except the beta quadra saw what I didn't see about myself. And I didn't see myself in ENFp descriptions written by non-ENFp's until i wrapped my mind around what I must come across like to other people (and I found Rick DeLong's IEE description which was a more perfect description of me than any IEI description i'd read). And then I learned the differences between Ne and Ni, Fe and Fi, Te and Ti, Se and Si and how they manifest (though they are complex and i'm still to this day sorting out their fine nuances). Indeed I am ENFp.

One of the good things socionics has done for me is help me consciously recognize what my strengths are (and what I can be confident about), what things I need help with, and what I need to stay away from and avoid.

IIRC, I actually thought you VI'd ENFp and the way you were with your friends seemed that way too. Why is ENFp not an option?

I think you should consider which quadra values fit you best, alpha or delta.

[protoss]

that being said, ILE has a deep personal commitment to equality of people. ILE will accept anyone on the basis that they are a human being and worth something. ILE will talk to anyone and consider their point of view no matter what their so called relational position in the hierarchy is. relational hierarchy is anathema to ILE. pecking orders, popularity, social manipulation etc all are deeply distasteful to ILE.

sarcasm?

[Cuddly McFluffles]

sarcasm?

Highly doubtful. Alpha's a Democratic quadra.

[Marie84]

Fi polr is more like a lack of comprehension of the subtleties of personal relationships and to be truthful, the not so subtle. ILE simply doesn´t think in those terms. ILE is too busy trying to understand the unknown phenomena of the material and theoretical world. so ILE, who doesn´t perceive or interpret relationship information well, will constantly make social blunders and commit relational faux pas.

Thank you for explaining this, Blaze, I'm simultaneously curious and frazzled by how things work on the "other side" and so I think that I at times poorly interpret the intentions of Fi-PoLR's

that being said, ILE has a deep personal commitment to equality of people. ILE will accept anyone on the basis that they are a human being and worth something. ILE will talk to anyone and consider their point of view no matter what their so called relational position in the hierarchy is. relational hierarchy is anathema to ILE. pecking orders, popularity, social manipulation etc all are deeply distasteful to ILE.

This has been pretty accurate IME
The relational problems are more noticeable with close relationships, from what I've experienced, which is why I sometimes see ILE's as being superficial (even if it's not intentional) since I've noticed that they can be incredibly courteous and kind to strangers and people they don't spend a lot of time with, but than do a 180 with their "loved ones" for no reason (lots of moodiness, passive aggressive attacks, just a general lack of consideration).

Would you say this could be due to just a general unhealthy character or do you think ILE's just feel more comfortable being "themselves" around certain people? Or could it be a general lack of actual feelings towards certain people, and thus just not caring if they severe their relationships by acting/speaking this way?

[xerx]

The relational problems are more noticeable with close relationships, from what I've experienced, which is why I sometimes see ILE's as being superficial (even if it's not intentional) since I've noticed that they can be incredibly courteous and kind to strangers and people they don't spend a lot of time with, but than do a 180 with their "loved ones" for no reason (lots of moodiness, passive aggressive attacks, just a general lack of consideration).

Unless I'm acting in some official capacity, this is 100% true and I've never fully known the reason why. For some reason, strangers' needs seem immediate and their emotions seem important and fragile.

Would you say this could be due to just a general unhealthy character or do you think ILE's just feel more comfortable being "themselves" around certain people? Or could it be a general lack of actual feelings towards certain people, and thus just not caring if they severe their relationships by acting/speaking this way?

Probably both. The first is self-explanatory and the second usually happens because extensive familiarity reduces the novelty of those people. But there is still something more to it I can't explain.

[Marie84]

Unless I'm acting in some official capacity, this is 100% true and I've never fully known the reason why. For some reason, strangers' needs seem more important and their emotions seem more immediate and fragile. This is the polar opposite of SLE's polr IME

Thank you as well, I'm finding all this insight into the minds of ILE's quite fascinating.
I think you may be right about SLE's, I have noticed that they can come across as rather unfiltered around strangers but than switch to some sort of protective instinct with their close relations

Probably both. The first is self-explanatory and the second usually happens because extensive familiarity reduces the novelty of those people. But there is still something more to it I can't explain.

I never thought of that, but that's certainly something to keep in mind

[Blaze]

Thank you for explaining this, Blaze, I'm simultaneously curious and frazzled by how things work on the "other side" and so I think that I at times poorly interpret the intentions of Fi-PoLR's



This has been pretty accurate IME
The relational problems are more noticeable with close relationships, from what I've experienced, which is why I sometimes see ILE's as being superficial (even if it's not intentional) since I've noticed that they can be incredibly courteous and kind to strangers and people they don't spend a lot of time with, but than do a 180 with their "loved ones" for no reason (lots of moodiness, passive aggressive attacks, just a general lack of consideration).

Would you say this could be due to just a general unhealthy character or do you think ILE's just feel more comfortable being "themselves" around certain people? Or could it be a general lack of actual feelings towards certain people, and thus just not caring if they severe their relationships by acting/speaking this way?

ILE starts off well with people due to their sense of decency and democracy. starting is easy since it's simple. this is congruent with ILE view of relationships, rather simple. but as relationships progress, they become more complex and multi-leveled. this is what makes it harder for ILE to know what's going on and to decide on the right way to interact at a closer distance.

i explain it this way: ILE is not naturally empathic. their starting off well is a theoretical position about people. so, ILE always has to work at empathy. other types might already have empathy, esp rational types with ethics in the role position and ego block ethicals. so the idea is that since the energy is directed towards developing empathy, there's none leftover for figuring out nuanced interaction, most especially when lots of things are happening in the relationship AND when ILE is stressed. ILE kind of starts off behind the 8 ball and can't catch up. this leads to awkward social mistakes which stem from limited empathy and over emphasis on out of the box logic.

speaking for myself, i believe it is why i've become more introverted over time. i try to rest in Ti, the idea being if you dont' say anything at least then you don't look like an ass. it doesn't always work though since Ne cannot be restrained for long and Ti must service it. and, when extraverts try to play off as introverts, they only weaken themselves since extraverts naturally don't observe and respond....they act and initiate. so it's kind of like you're between a rock and a hard place, not great choices.

i know that i really need Fe egos in my life and at my side. without them, life can be miserable. i can cope better with Se role as i've learned to manage it at least to an acceptable level, but Fi is stubborn and won't change. it's funny too, since an Fi ego could explain something relational later and i'm like DOH!! why didn't i see it that way at the time. but no matter how much they explain i don't get it for the next time. it's better for Fe types to just kind of raise my mood and smooth things over. other than that there's really nothing that can be done.

POLR's are truly a stuck point for everybody though. it's just that some polr's are worse than others in practical application. at least it seems that way to me. i've noticed that the Te polr of infpman resists intervention and change as well, and remains quite limited and archaic. he is extremely defensive about Te stuff and will stubbornly believe he is right when he is so wrong! not to pick on him or anything just using someone i know very well as an example.

to summarize, ILE means no harm. we're just relationally retarded. and like anyone with mental retardation, we're quite defensive about it and like to pretend we are not relational retards.

[Marie84]

ILE starts off well with people due to their sense of decency and democracy. starting is easy since it's simple. this is congruent with ILE view of relationships, rather simple. but as relationships progress, they become more complex and multi-leveled. this is what makes it harder for ILE to know what's going on and to decide on the right way to interact at a closer distance.

i explain it this way: ILE is not naturally empathic. their starting off well is a theoretical position about people. so, ILE always has to work at empathy. other types might already have empathy, esp rational types with ethics in the role position and ego block ethicals. so the idea is that since the energy is directed towards developing empathy, there's none leftover for figuring out nuanced interaction, most especially when lots of things are happening in the relationship AND when ILE is stressed. ILE kind of starts off behind the 8 ball and can't catch up. this leads to awkward social mistakes which stem from limited empathy and over emphasis on out of the box logic.

This alone is probably one the most to the point explanation on Fi in ILE's that I've read to be quite honest, so thank you again! I've read a lot about how it isn't intended to be malicious and blah blah blah but they don't really explain what fuels these reactions, and that's basically what I wanted to know

speaking for myself, i believe it is why i've become more introverted over time. i try to rest in Ti, the idea being if you dont' say anything at least then you don't look like an ass. it doesn't always work though since Ne cannot be restrained for long and Ti must service it. and, when extraverts try to play off as introverts, they only weaken themselves since extraverts naturally don't observe and respond....they act and initiate. so it's kind of like you're between a rock and a hard place, not great choices.

i know that i really need Fe egos in my life and at my side. without them, life can be miserable. i can cope better with Se role as i've learned to manage it at least to an acceptable level, but Fi is stubborn and won't change. it's funny too, since an Fi ego could explain something relational later and i'm like DOH!! why didn't i see it that way at the time. but no matter how much they explain i don't get it for the next time. it's better for Fe types to just kind of raise my mood and smooth things over. other than that there's really nothing that can be done.

Yeah, I noticed this both with my mom and brother growing-up; in the typical Jungian terminology they probably could classify as introverts from their general lack of proactive social initiative. My mom especially has grown to be rather reclusive and drained of any sort of stamina, yet simultaneously seems frustrated because she wants to do exciting and fun things.
I guess from years of disappointing relationships and lack of emotional levity you guys just deflate from within or something.

POLR's are truly a stuck point for everybody though. it's just that some polr's are worse than others in practical application. at least it seems that way to me. i've noticed that the Te polr of infpman resists intervention and change as well, and remains quite limited and archaic. he is extremely defensive about Te stuff and will stubbornly believe he is right when he is so wrong! not to pick on him or anything just using someone i know very well as an example.

to summarize, ILE means no harm. we're just relationally retarded. and like anyone with mental retardation, we're quite defensive about it and like to pretend we are not relational retards.

again, thank you for taking the time to explain this, I'll definitely try to remember this the next time one of my ILE's crosses the sensitivity line :redface:

[Creepy-male]

I guess from years of disappointing relationships and lack of emotional levity you guys just deflate from within or something.

I remember reading that in one of the descriptions. ILEs need emotional recharge, which is precisely what SEIs do.

It's fantastic duality. The SEI fuels the ILE having a life without them, and the ILE fuels the SEI not having a life outside themselves

[Suz]

to summarize, ILE means no harm. we're just relationally retarded. and like anyone with mental retardation, we're quite defensive about it and like to pretend we are not relational retards.

Fi-slip!!!!!


It's ok Blaze, I forgive you and I know what you meant.


And thanks also from me for the awesome insights into the mind of an ILE. Really superb and valuable explanation!!

[Creepy-male]

Fi-slip!!!!!


It's ok Blaze, I forgive you and I know what you meant.

What do you mean?

Blaze did nothing wrong.

[Suz]

What do you mean?

Blaze did nothing wrong.

Says her non-Fi-valuing dual.


She took a stab at people with developmental delay.

But I know she meant "mentally retarded" in the sense of people with normal cognition who are just weak at something and dont want to admit it, not actual people with real mental retardation. But it's an Fi-slip nonetheless. Someone with a mentally retarded relative may have taken great offense at that.

[Creepy-male]

I'm sensing an impending iceberg. Made of cans of worms.

EVASIVE MANEUVERS!!!!!!!!

[Suz]

I'm sensing an impending iceberg. Made of cans of worms.

EVASIVE MANEUVERS!!!!!!!!

LOLLLL!!!



ur hilarious, Brian!!!!

[Creepy-Snaps]

IMU, Fi PoLR/Vulnerables don't feel comfortable evaluating people outside of surface behavior nor do they want to be evaluated themselves, they'd rather it not even be an issue and do their best to ignore having to deal with their own and others 'internal states'
From a personal observation; one of the biggest problem I've had being raised by an Fi PoLR (ILE in this case) is that there was a complete lack of wanting to understand, connect and bond outside of superficiality.

It's like a complete indifference towards people outside of external projections, which is pretty characteristic of Fi PoLR types, and they can sabotage a lot of personal relationships because of this, and in many cases, believe they were justified in doing so

Fi polr is more like a lack of comprehension of the subtleties of personal relationships and to be truthful, the not so subtle. ILE simply doesn´t think in those terms. ILE is too busy trying to understand the unknown phenomena of the material and theoretical world. so ILE, who doesn´t perceive or interpret relationship information well, will constantly make social blunders and commit relational faux pas.

that being said, ILE has a deep personal commitment to equality of people. ILE will accept anyone on the basis that they are a human being and worth something. ILE will talk to anyone and consider their point of view no matter what their so called relational position in the hierarchy is. relational hierarchy is anathema to ILE. pecking orders, popularity, social manipulation etc all are deeply distasteful to ILE.

Yeah, I like Blaze's answer but I'll respond to Marie also. When I said I like figuring out people like a puzzle, I didn't mean caring about 'wanting to understand, connect, and bond outside of superificiality'. Or like really caring what's going on inside of people's minds... I don't care. There are over 8 billion people in the world, why care what's in anyone's mind... or spend the time trying to. Maybe that's what you think of though as INFj, using Ne based upon Fi. But I think I use it more with Ti. I am more attracted to figuring people out on a surface level though, predicting how people will act in different situations, or just knowing offhand, being able to size people up quickly.

To me socionics is more a fun theoretical way to understand people better. Better predict people's behavior. Not so much care how they feel or what's going on inside... and like Blaze said, I do relate to ILE being the 'intuitive protectors of society', and hate it when other people get taken advantage of because they don't know any better. I like what you said, "a deep personal commitment to the equality of people".

[Creepy-Snaps]

Like I later saw you already mentioned, ENFp's have this problem too. When I first started learning about socionics, I thought I was IEI (INFp), i could have SWORN the description fit me to a T. Except the beta quadra saw what I didn't see about myself. And I didn't see myself in ENFp descriptions written by non-ENFp's until i wrapped my mind around what I must come across like to other people (and I found Rick DeLong's IEE description which was a more perfect description of me than any IEI description i'd read). And then I learned the differences between Ne and Ni, Fe and Fi, Te and Ti, Se and Si and how they manifest (though they are complex and i'm still to this day sorting out their fine nuances). Indeed I am ENFp.

One of the good things socionics has done for me is help me consciously recognize what my strengths are (and what I can be confident about), what things I need help with, and what I need to stay away from and avoid.

IIRC, I actually thought you VI'd ENFp and the way you were with your friends seemed that way too. Why is ENFp not an option?

I think you should consider which quadra values fit you best, alpha or delta.

ENFp is still a consideration, but I ruled it out more because I think ENFp's care more about intuitively putting things in an ethical order, understanding the big picture as a way of helping people's personal problems... which I don't really care about. And I have proven to be able to analyze things very well, have a quick mind, which uses Ti more... and a third reason, I don't think I agree with Delta values of hard work very much... I enjoy light-hearted fun, joking around and having a good time especially, which more closely fits Alpha.

[Suz]

ENFp is still a consideration, but I ruled it out more because I think ENFp's care more about intuitively putting things in an ethical order, understanding the big picture as a way of helping people's personal problems... which I don't really care about. And I have proven to be able to analyze things very well, have a quick mind, which uses Ti more... and a third reason, I don't think I agree with Delta values of hard work very much... I enjoy light-hearted fun, joking around and having a good time especially, which more closely fits Alpha.

Well in that case, you're definitely ILE! Stop having thoughts about possibly being LSE, then!

[Blaze]

hey thanks everybody, i am glad that somebody got something out of what i said. in some ways, if you can really own a polr with bald honesty, then you can trust your typing of yourself. lol

i used to work with retarded people. invariably, they know they are retarded and they don't want to accept it, so they are defensive about their retardation. it's a funny thing...kind of like how people feel about their polrs. but that is funny....here i am writing about Fi polr and there you go....set an example of it right here. LOL i'm such an asshole.

[Marie84]

Yeah, I like Blaze's answer but I'll respond to Marie also. When I said I like figuring out people like a puzzle, I didn't mean caring about 'wanting to understand, connect, and bond outside of superificiality'. Or like really caring what's going on inside of people's minds... I don't care. There are over 8 billion people in the world, why care what's in anyone's mind... or spend the time trying to. Maybe that's what you think of though as INFj, using Ne based upon Fi. But I think I use it more with Ti. I am more attracted to figuring people out on a surface level though, predicting how people will act in different situations, or just knowing offhand, being able to size people up quickly.

I wasn't really complaining about ILE's (and SLE's) not understanding a person from ~*~within~*~ like wanting to talk about our souls or feelings, this is just fluff to me, it's not what's important. It's about not caring about, or at least not showing any care, towards how ones "being" can have an affect on another person.
Basically, what Blaze mentioned about empathy being an unnatural attribute of Fi PoLR's, and I think this is precisely the problem Fi dominants have with them; it's that innate lack of consideration that they often project that leads to a lot of offensive/hurtful behavior while additionally not wanting anyone to be offended or hurt by it. It's sort of like mistreating a dog and than being surprised when it finally bites you.
There's also the thing about ILE's being Si needy which is something I find irritating to have to supply especially *after* they just insulted me
With IEE's it's not really an issue and I'm rather happy to remind them of Si, or actively take care of/protect them to an extent, but that's because they're probably some of the nicest people in the world, it's really hard for me to not want to help them

btw the part about superficiality is a biased statement on my part, keeping in mind that I ignore Fe which happens to be desirable trait to Ti's who need displays of surfaced emotions to feel at ease, but I'm more focused on how I feel about others and how they feel towards me, what they like/dislike etc, more or less not wanting to step on anyone's toes/bother people than I am on needing to entertain people with smiles and positive bouncy emotions; fwiw I could do this to an extent, it's just not a priority for me, I find it kind of shallow (again, a bias on my part )

To me socionics is more a fun theoretical way to understand people better. Better predict people's behavior. Not so much care how they feel or what's going on inside... and like Blaze said, I do relate to ILE being the 'intuitive protectors of society', and hate it when other people get taken advantage of because they don't know any better. I like what you said, "a deep personal commitment to the equality of people".

Anywho, amongst all my bitching about Fi PoLR's I'm happy for you that you found your type

What do you mean?

Blaze did nothing wrong.

Is this a SIM of Blaze? It looks like it wants to steal my soul

[Creepy-male]

Is this a SIM of Blaze? It looks like it wants to steal my soul

I did a google image search on "creepy blank stare", because I was delivering "Blaze did nothing wrong" in a creepy monotone, like those ghost twins from The Shining.

[Blaze]

I think this is precisely the problem Fi dominants have with them; it's that innate lack of consideration that they often project that leads to a lot of offensive/hurtful behavior while additionally not wanting anyone to be offended or hurt by it. It's sort of like mistreating a dog and than being surprised when it finally bites you.
There's also the thing about ILE's being Si needy which is something I find irritating to have to supply especially *after* they just insulted me

and this is the problem that i have with Fi dominants! you take this stuff soooo seriously. whoa. y'all don't know how ta play :wink: i wouldn't try to supply the Si....you really wouldn't be able to anyway. the best thing an EII can do with an ILE is back off and increase the distance.