How to distinguish between dual and conflictor (SEE vs ESE)
Hello, I am an ILI-Ni and I believe I have found a SEE-Se which excites me very much. We like each other a lot and never fight but we have many misunderstandings so sometimes I worry that he is actually my conflictor, ESE. I feel like I value our relationship much more than he does, and he has become more unlike his past self recently which scares me very much. How can I distinguish whether he is a SEE or ESE? I'm sorry if this seems shallow to people but it's very important to me.
Types of opposite spectrum of personality do come with difficulties. ESE is definitely more merry than the SEE. SEE seem to be obsessed with facts, ESE is of childlike attitude. But even if it is SEE, opposite spectrum have difficulties.
You need to analyze the nature of the disagreements. Ignore Socionics types when doing so. You can watch for information types, that can be helpful, but disregard the Socionics types themselves and you need to add other psychological understanding beyond Socionics. You can ask for the help of an experienced counselor too with that.Originally Posted by pasjc
Duals have conflicts too but they come out of them with new understanding so the relationship deepens over time. This assumes there are no other factors standing in the way of resolving the conflict (e.g. different and irreconcilable life goals, extremely different mental health levels etc). Also assumes sufficient level of trust. Sometimes outside help may be needed too to solve conflicts faster if it goes beyond a simple misunderstanding or whatever.
All in all. Duality isn't some magical solution to problems. You still need to put in the work for the relationship to work, the good news is, with a dual, the energy put towards that purpose won't be wasted like it would be in some other relationships (assuming all the other factors for compatibility and life circumstances etc check out too).
Last edited by Myst; 01-04-2017 at 09:44 AM.
I'm trying to devise a quick test to check wether this person is SEE or ESE. The best I can come up is if they respond positively either to analytical thinking (-Ti) or analogic thinking (+Ni). How would they respond to a detailed analysis of something? What about a stream of conciousness type of diatribe?. Another could be if they are activated by either a cause-effect explanation of something (-Te), or a more abstract description of how something works (+Ne).
One thing though (it's about time this fact is set straight on this forum); the big time duality occurs between different subtypes. The same subtype duality (i.e. SEE-SE - ILI-Ni) Is similar to an activity/semi-duality mix (IME).
This fact? You didn't give any facts to support this statement.
What makes it work with different subtypes better in your experience?
two questions
How did you type him as Se subtype and still think he can be ESE?
and will you leave him if he is your conflictor?
I've observed countless dual pairs both in real life and in fiction, and it is always accepting with producing. It is also based on my own experience. I had the big time duality activate with an IEE-Ne.
Also, some russian socionist noticed it before I did. I cannot provide link because I read it years ago and I don't remember where I did.
I'm not interested in the reference to the writings of some socionist, I'm more interested in what you think makes the mismatching subtypes work better if you can give some details on that.
Duality isn't bliss neither is conflict hell, the key there is temperament, is the person of your interest EP or EJ? Look up the temperament theory.
BTW duality has communication issues too, there it's hard to find a topic of conversation to focus on. Nevertheless information exchange occurs naturally
How does that work if they are caregivers?
Oh ya, ESE are caregivers and on the childlike-caregiver spectrum of erotic attitude. ;p I find it easier sometimes that view both caregiver and childlike as being of childlike attitude and victim and aggressor of aggressor attitude since it is different expression of the same. For example EII got the childlike attitude but they do have the high dimension Ni also which give them a dash of victim. But ya, ESE are caregivers, I messed up terms when writing I guess.
I guess they are recognized more as being temperament alike, or something low key but adds up to generic behaviors.
Last edited by Tigerfadder; 01-04-2017 at 03:28 PM.
You mean what are the specific dynamics of why it works better for different subtypès? Don't know about that yet, but I can guess that it simply is more balanced somehow when one is accepting and the other is producing.
I no longer believe he is an ESE. It was his career choice (teacher) and his quite unusual behaviour during the time I wrote the post that I have considered that. He was having some difficulties with people and was hiding his true emotions. I will not leave him for that reason but it would lead me to wonder how I got along with him so well.
ILI-Ni 5w4 sp/sx 548 RLUEI
Oh it seems teacher actually is in the professions of SEE. Well, I'm incredibly scared of losing him mostly... it's just getting a bit unstable and I am trying my best to accommodate to him. I do believe he is an Se subtype still. He has many moments where he falls into a deep depression and I am sad that I cannot help him get out of it. I fear giving away too much information so as to lose my anonymity.
ILI-Ni 5w4 sp/sx 548 RLUEI
I'm incredibly extroverted, and if I can't achieve some short term goal*, or if I don't associate enough with people for a day or two, I fall into a depression. Talking to people gets me right out of it, though.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
*Or when I am reconsidering my life's direction, as in, what the hell to do after I achieve the present goal of making money?
P.S.
You are ILI-Ni. Tell him where his options for action will lead. Help him figure out which one is best.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-04-2017 at 07:42 PM.
What did you specifically observe that was more balanced?
Keep in mind that as long as people are having good interactions with someone they are going to be subconsciously believed to be a dual or other favorable type but when/if troubles start they will become conflictor or less favorable type. If you read enough posts you will see it clearly. There is no way to know for sure how they process information. You learn over time to recognize certain things as you gain a deeper understanding of how they feel, think and respond.
If you like the person work on your on communication skills and making yourself clear. If someone is not treating you right , in your perception, then you have to decide if it is worth the effort. One sided relationships suck regardless of intertype. You might as well ask them directly what is going on instead of wasting more time speculating about their type or what they are thinking/feeling. I wish I could take my own advice sometimes. :/
This is probably not a popular opinion on this forum but asking advice on how to distinguish between one, or another, from people who either mistype themselves and/or others is just going to lead to confusion. Good luck. I hope you work it out.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
The biggest difference from my point of view is that SEEs will sometimes "detach" from a social situation or appear erratic or unpredictable. ESEs like to communicate their intentions extremely clearly so there is no doubt about their state of mind and feelings. SEEs like to keep you on your toes so to speak, both out of a dislike for structure and from a strategic point of view. I also confused an SEE for an ESE and this is what tipped me off. She had a very bright and upbeat affect, so could easily be mistaken for an ESE, but we kept having these weird communication problems.
Going by Ti/Ni suggestibility: ESE will embrace when you correct their reasoning in a deductive way (=Ti), SEE will show some type of rejection. Fe-leads LOVE having someone explain to them how this connects to that, endless factual webs. Se-leads LOVE temporal forecast and having future consequences or past action procedures pointed out to them.
Hypothetically: Someone tell @handjob in the next best interaction that he's completely nonsensical. Then tell me how unreasonable I am in a similar context. He will likely start coming for your neck while I will say "I know ok bby tell me why though"
He is quite unpredictable... I have no doubts now.
ILI-Ni 5w4 sp/sx 548 RLUEI
One wants to move you emotionally the other just watches and takes things in
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I don't like to type without seeing the actual mental contents of the Ego functions. Tbh when someone could be my dual is when I become real wary of typing them as my dual without clear enough information. Type is strictly about what kind of information you have in your Ego block, it's not loosely related traits or what random intertype the interaction seems to resemble.
A deep enough interview for example can show the information processing.If you read enough posts you will see it clearly. There is no way to know for sure how they process information. You learn over time to recognize certain things as you gain a deeper understanding of how they feel, think and respond.
So true lolThis is probably not a popular opinion on this forum but asking advice on how to distinguish between one, or another, from people who either mistype themselves and/or others is just going to lead to confusion.
Not a very good example. Most people will not appreciate being told such a thing regardless of type. IEEs on the other hand can be incredibly tolerant to adjust with people when they feel like it. Another thing that's off about this example is, it's not even specific to Ti, it's just Logic and could come from a Te ego fine. Or just from someone who's being rude. I can see Fe PoLR do this, too. It for sure reminds me of this Gamma NT who told this to people a lot.Hypothetically: Someone tell @handjob in the next best interaction that he's completely nonsensical. Then tell me how unreasonable I am in a similar context. He will likely start coming for your neck while I will say "I know ok bby tell me why though
Last edited by Myst; 01-06-2017 at 07:56 PM.
For illustrative purposes here is an extreme example of an Se + Fi person.
ESFp-Fi E6w7
Here are some things to note about this guy from the video:
- He talks ethics non-stop, not logics. It doesn’t seem logical at all, too "stupid", so F.
- How it sucked in a inter human way (Fi), not how it is bad for society (Ti).
- Ti would say, "it was really bad of us to do that because it gives the wrong message to people."
- This is what Rob Richards stated in the video and is Fi information, "it really made us look bad/made them disrespected."
- It’s the focus, he’s talking about how it feels and how things the feelings of it was, which is essentially Fi.
- Ethics focusing on the feeling of it: "It was just hilarious, it made sense."
- Logicals would FEEL that way too, however would not focus on it in an explanation in my opinion.
- "I don’t see them as human beings, I never will."<-----classification of a person according to value, so Fi.
- The Se in him is just so obvious I don't feel I need to go into it.
Follow up story.
There is a reason SEE conflict with LIIs. SEE basically make LIIs extremely uncomfortable.
LII view of SEE: they are entrenched in literalism.
SEE view of LII: they suffer from relativism.
Just my opinion :/
Last edited by wacey; 01-17-2017 at 10:35 PM. Reason: tweaks
I have not found my conflictor to be that difficult to be around. Where we diverge greatly is with our objectives in life; we need to go our separate ways on this issue to a large extent. I argue with my dual perhaps as much as my conflictor. I have noted the following overall comparative tendencies; however, it's all relative and I'm not suggesting that one lacks the others characteristic:
SEE versus ESE
wanting freedom versus wanting closure
moralistic versus empathetic
exploratory versus cautious
moves on versus dwells on
wants things versus wants health
obtuse versus poignant
insightful versus productive
spontaneous versus predictable
a.k.a I/O
sounds about right. Except the first one doesn't look quite right just because I see freedom coming from closure. As well, being productive could also be a Te thing along with ESEs famous industriousnes. So in that instance I see them achieving the same ends through different avenues.
Also, I would assign productive to SEE due to the valued Te and insightful to ESE due to the valued Ne. Although SEE can certainly be insightful when it comes to people and relations and ESE can be quite productive due to demonstrative Ne and being Exxj temperament.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Right, which was exactly what I said, except you did it via Ti.
How else would I do it?
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
I have noted SEEs abruptly leaving a spouse or a work situation when having had enough; they seem to toss issues over the fence rather than deal with them. Some may think that moving on is the same as closure but I look upon it as way to accumulate issues. I have never met an SEE that was as visibly productive on their own initiative as an ESE; however, the breadth of their knowledge, insight and potential can be very impressive indeed but their feet often need to be nailed to the floor in order for someone to tap the resource.
a.k.a. I/O
You did good, chips.
Hmm interesting observations. I wonder if those abandoning SEEs had been leaving many clues that could reveal before hand they were about to leave? Even if it wasn't premediated, and could someone with a little more cognative forsight like an ILI have noticed it before they (SEE) did and move to prevent it? I'd have to agree there couldn't be much closure found in something like that..unless it was truly over. Which even if it was the other party would still most likely feel as though there was still unfinished business. As to abrubtly leaving a work situation, imo, doing it abruptly is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. If it wasnt working out, and all else fails, for whatever reason (good, bad), I would accept what the SEE had done.I have noted SEEs abruptly leaving a spouse or a work situation when having had enough; they seem to toss issues over the fence rather than deal with them. Some may think that moving on is the same as closure but I look upon it as way to accumulate issues. I have never met an SEE that was as visibly productive on their own initiative as an ESE; however, the breadth of their knowledge, insight and potential can be very impressive indeed but their feet often need to be nailed to the floor in order for someone to tap the resource.
a.k.a. I/O
I can't say I disagree about ESE having more initiative. ESE are from what I've seen incredibly industrious and this follows the reasoning that they are the social pushers in their own quadra. They have to be self starters otherwise nothing in alpha would ever get done! Its their social role in that small group and others to be the "space creators" (physical, workplace, emotional) and the high rationality within that means, from what I've seen, they can't help but "do" things. No offence meant to ESE when I say some of what they "do" seems overly redundant to me (holiday overkill).
I would say what ESE lack is "push through" qualities when their will is opposed to anothers. Unfortunatly for ESE, they need to circumvent this through Fe diplomacy, which is often not powerful enough, and can be to sensitive for certain situations (I beg your pardon?) and they can be wounded in a visible manner. Whereas SEE can easily navigate this scope with less personal sensitivity, although may privately harbour negative feelings due to Fi. (Which could lead to their seemingly "abrupt" actions) With ESE, from how I've noticed it, "what you see is what you get".
@wacey
I did not suggest that SEE behaviour was bad in any way but they do sometimes react impulsively when under a lot of stress, perhaps regretting it later. They don't seem inclined toward verifying all sides of their situation and so unresolved issues could accumulate; an ILI could definitely help with the big picture.
I also did not suggest that SEE had less initiative but their initiative is directed more toward exploration than production.
ESE will also "push through" when their diplomacy fails but more strategically than confrontationally. Between SEE and ESE, their measures of success would differ quite significantly; it would depend on specific objectives and environment as to which type has the best tools for success..........
a.k.a I/O
I understand how leaving a spouse may be a source of criticism, but what´s the problem in leaving a work situation to do something else? :s
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
It's a problem when it's simply a kneejerk reaction followed by an impulsive decision. If they've previously analysed the whole situation and made a rational decision to jump ship, then no problem whatsoever.
a.k.a. I/O
I had fourteen jobs before starting a company, and I quit twelve times (fired twice). There's nothing wrong with quitting. It is an optimization path with learning involved. Things just get better as you find out more about what you like and don't like.
Might be true with spouses, too. Until you find one that you can stick with. Not because she's available. Rather because you've seen the rest, and she's the best. (See the Optimal Stopping problem.)
@Adam Strange
This is off topic but I have known a number of ENTj that have gone from job to job and relationship to relationship causing many to get bruised along the way including themselves. They all seemed to be reaching for ideals that really didn't exist and most seemed somewhat disappointed or discontented in middle age even though society would deem them as relatively successful. Most N-types reach for unattainable ideals but not all get beaten up by their own hand during the process.
a.k.a I/O
Well, I still think it's ok to leave even if it's a kneejerk reaction, you're just selling your labour.
Relationships are different because there are other people who put trust in you to cooperate towards building a future together. At least ideally, of course there are also bad relationships.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
This could be a generational thing but I sell more than my labour. I look upon work as building a future together as well; at a corporate level, there has to be trust or there'd be constipation like the American congress has experienced.
a.k.a. I/O
OK, thanks!
ILI-Ni 5w4 sp/sx 548 RLUEI
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