Ezra's Enneagram Type

[Khamelion]

six

[Gilly]

I give good hugs.

[idolatrie]

I give good hugs.

hot.

[Gilly]

hot.

You have no idea.

[idolatrie]

You have no idea.

ay, there's the rub.

[Gilly]

ay, there's the rub.

We can talk about rubbing in pm if you'd like. :wink:

[idolatrie]

We can talk about rubbing in pm if you'd like. :wink:

yay, kinetic energy!

[Gilly]

So that's what you kids are calling it these days, eh?

[idolatrie]

So that's what you kids are calling it these days, eh?

gotta keep up with the lingo, gramps.

[Gilly]

I guess I'm just more interested in the lingus.

[Khamelion]

EWWWW get the beta yuckies out!!!!!!


see hugs were offered to ME but they were given away to the first person who spoke up!

no loyalty. no devotion. pffffffffffttt....go have your beta hugs in your PMs. sluts

[unefille]

Hey, with all our , Betas are inclusive. I'm sure they'd let you join in.

[shakealittle]

Take it to pm already. Gawd.

[Elro]

I think Ezra is more likely an 8.

I also have been known to be considered hawt on occasion.

[Khamelion]

Hey, with all our , Betas are inclusive. I'm sure they'd let you join in.

i'm greedy

[strrrng]

I think the 8 traits he exhibits are mainly superficial. My current (albeit inconclusive) opinion is cp6.

[Expat]

This is a serious question, albeit formulated without much serious thought behind it. Which is why I might as well place it here.

Is there any particular reason why, of all the enneatypes, only 6 should have something like the "cp version"? Yes I know why the "Bizarro" version of 6, in particular, would be "counter-phobic". Yet why shouldn't you have, say, the "counter-aggressive" 8 or something of the sort?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

This is a serious question, albeit formulated without much serious thought behind it. Which is why I might as well place it here.

Is there any particular reason why, of all the enneatypes, only 6 should have something like the "cp version"? Yes I know why the "Bizarro" version of 6, in particular, would be "counter-phobic". Yet why shouldn't you have, say, the "counter-aggressive" 8 or something of the sort?

This is a good question. Something i've thought about the six is that the fear thing is used ie a person is submissive to authority because they are fearful, but then a person is resistant to authority because they are fearful but not aware of their fear - maybe it's just because they simply aren't afraid? Seems like a nul point to say to someone - yeah you are scared but you just don't realise it. How can someone answer that? "i'm not scared" "yes you are" "ok then" and so and so.

As it's said so many types are sixes but mis-identified as other types, maybe the idea of the six really is as a number fits all category, to attempt to make the enneagram all inclusive when perhaps really it isn't.

I'd be interested to hear what people think about these things.

[strrrng]

Is there any particular reason why, of all the enneatypes, only 6 should have something like the "cp version"? Yes I know why the "Bizarro" version of 6, in particular, would be "counter-phobic". Yet why shouldn't you have, say, the "counter-aggressive" 8 or something of the sort?

Nah, not really. And the phobic/counter-phobic thing isn't black-and-white; it more or less denotes the state that a person is more actively in - resisting structure/authority or going towards it. As for making polarities for other types, it could work superficially, but would ultimately be insubstantial IMO. The 6 personality is essentially based off of polarities, regarding fear and security, so they are constantly pulled between two ends of the spectrum, thus how they can appear to be walking contradictions.

I think Ezra's recent behavior - professing opinions in an absolute manner to get them heard (validation), jumping from argument to argument, contradicting himself on core positions in arguments - all make a decent case for him being a 6, albeit one in a highly counter-phobic right now. I have a hard time believing that an 8 would expend so much energy on making sure he is heard or proving a point, externally speaking. An 8 would probably just "do it" and move on; not create thread after thread with extensive arguments that ended up seeming more like personal rants than any real form of discourse.

[strrrng]

This is a good question. Something i've thought about the six is that the fear thing is used ie a person is submissive to authority because they are fearful, but then a person is resistant to authority because they are fearful but not aware of their fear - maybe it's just because they simply aren't afraid? Seems like a nul point to say to someone - yeah you are scared but you just don't realise it. How can someone answer that? "i'm not scared" "yes you are" and so and so.

That's essentially correct. The phobic 6 is more "conscious" of their fear, and thus, acquiesces to it. The counter-phobic 6 suppresses the awareness of their fear and then projects it outward, making it seem as though they don't have it, hence how many counter-phobic 6's can appear like 8's by developing a hard front - which is the exact term Ezra used to describe himself in another thread.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Well, i've heard that 8's don't really like to explain themselves, and if Ezra is jumping from point to point maybe that is because he doesn't like to explain himself?

[strrrng]

Well, i've heard that 8's don't really like to explain themselves, and if Ezra is jumping from point to point maybe that is because he doesn't like to explain himself?

I'm not sure about that claim. 8's are probably less inclined to prove that they are correct than 6's would be, as the 6 cares about validation. Even so, I think Ezra was trying to prove to people how he was right and explained himself quite thoroughly in recent threads.

[Expat]

The 6 personality is essentially based off of polarities, regarding fear and security, so they are constantly pulled between two ends of the spectrum, thus how they can appear to be walking contradictions.

Fair enough.

I think Ezra's recent behavior - professing opinions in an absolute manner to get them heard (validation), jumping from argument to argument, contradicting himself on core positions in arguments - all make a decent case for him being a 6, albeit one in a highly counter-phobic right now. I have a hard time believing that an 8 would expend so much energy on making sure he is heard or proving a point, externally speaking. An 8 would probably just "do it" and move on; not create thread after thread with extensive arguments that ended up seeming more like personal rants than any real form of discourse.

Ok. Interestingly, I think Ezra himself has made the case (or at least stated the belief) that Mike Tyson is an example of SLE who's a cp6.

I can see your point, which comes from a different interpretation of 8 from Ezra's. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe that he sees precisely that kind of, uh, "fearless" and impulsive behavior - as in just saying what he thinks and asking what he wants to ask, even if seemingly (or actually) contradicting himself - as characteristics of 8.

What I get from your interpretation of 8 would be closer to my own.

(Which, for that matter, is not strongly connected to my own typing in the enneagram; I have been thinking about 1 recently).

[strrrng]

Ok. Interestingly, I think Ezra himself has made the case (or at least stated the belief) that Mike Tyson is an example of SLE who's a cp6.

Yeah, that works for Tyson.

I can see your point, which comes from a different interpretation of 8 from Ezra's. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe that he sees precisely that kind of, uh, "fearless" and impulsive behavior - as in just saying what he thinks and asking what he wants to ask, even if seemingly (or actually) contradicting himself - as characteristics of 8.

Believe me, 8's can be reckless and impulsive, but so can counter-phobic 6's, in their pursuit of defying the fear/security/whatever. So, to type solely based off of such a behavior is not reliable.

What I get from your interpretation of 8 would be closer to my own.

Yeah? How so?

(Which, for that matter, is not strongly connected to my own typing in the enneagram; I have been thinking about 1 recently).

I see. fwiw, I think compliant social style works better for you than assertive, i.e. being "compliant" to one's super ego - the inner rules/principles/etc that one has developed. 1, 2 and 6 are all compliant. A 1's attitude would be along the lines of "look at all this disorganization; I need to be the one to fix this" and the 6 would focus on their associations and supporters as their guide. Reactive harmonic style (which is what 8 is) isn't the impression I get of you; you don't exactly seem to involve your emotions when dealing with an issue or solving a problem. This could support the idea of you being a 1, as they are in the competency harmonic group, which basically focuses on putting their emotions aside and getting the job done - in or outside of the given framework.

Digression ftw lol.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

That's essentially correct. The phobic 6 is more "conscious" of their fear, and thus, acquiesces to it. The counter-phobic 6 suppresses the awareness of their fear and then projects it outward, making it seem as though they don't have it, hence how many counter-phobic 6's can appear like 8's by developing a hard front - which is the exact term Ezra used to describe himself in another thread.

An analogy i've heard to describe the bi-polarity of the 6 (which you mentioned earlier) is it is like being both hungry and thirsty - does one go to water well to quench their thirst, or the banquet table to satiate their hunger, ie it's like being torn between two crucial things, which is most important at any given time? (the fear they have or the security they need) which can lead to the unpredictability in action and the 'tribulation' within.

I'm not sure how much this relates to the thread, but I thought it may be interesting, perhaps it can be a useful thing to present to a prospective 6.

[Expat]

Yeah? How so?

As in:

I have a hard time believing that an 8 would expend so much energy on making sure he is heard or proving a point, externally speaking. An 8 would probably just "do it" and move on

I would agree that one of characteristics of 8 is the lack of need (or low need) for validation from others in things of this sort. However, as a general observation, to bounce ideas off others while you're still learning a subject is not necessarily a search for validation.

I see. fwiw, I think compliant social style works better for you than assertive, i.e. being "compliant" to one's super ego - the inner rules/principles/etc that one has developed. 1, 2 and 6 are all compliant. A 1's attitude would be along the lines of "look at all this disorganization; I need to be the one to fix this" and the 6 would focus on their associations and supporters as their guide. Reactive harmonic style (which is what 8 is) isn't the impression I get of you; you don't exactly seem to involve your emotions when dealing with an issue or solving a problem. This could support the idea of you being a 1, as they are in the competency harmonic group, which basically focuses on putting their emotions aside and getting the job done - in or outside of the given framework.

According to that interpretation, as far as it goes, I would be 1>8>>6.

However, from my own perspective, what happens is this. "Look at this problem (rather than disorganization specifically); I need to be the one to fix this" is certainly a good summary of my approach. However, the extent to which I involve my emotions varies with how grave I see the problem, and with the extent of my own personal responsibility. If I see a huge problem which is about to "blow" and one in which I am personally involved - or people close to me are - then I can get very emotionally involved too.

[strrrng]

An analogy i've heard to describe the bi-polarity of the 6 (which you mentioned earlier) is it is like being both hungry and thirsty - does one go to water well to quench their thirst, or the banquet table to satiate their hunger, ie it's like being torn between two crucial things, which is most important at any given time? (the fear they have or the security they need) which can lead to the unpredictability in action and the 'tribulation' within.

I'm not sure how much this relates to the thread, but I thought it may be interesting, perhaps it can be a useful thing to present to a prospective 6.

Yeah, this makes sense.

However, from my own perspective, what happens is this. "Look at this problem (rather than disorganization specifically); I need to be the one to fix this" is certainly a good summary of my approach. However, the extent to which I involve my emotions varies with how grave I see the problem, and with the extent of my own personal responsibility. If I see a huge problem which is about to "blow" and one in which I am personally involved - or people close to me are - then I can get very emotionally involved too.

Interesting. 6 and 8 are both reactive harmonic types, so when problems ensue, they will both react emotionally, and look for a reaction in others. 6's will sort of get defensive and look for guidance, while simultaneously trying to maintain some autonomy in the situation. The 8 will more or less just impose their will on the situation. R&H used a metaphor for the reactive harmonic triad (4, 6 and 8): 4 wants to be rescued, 6 wants to rescue and be rescued and 8 just wants to rescue. Obviously these fixations stem from fears of emotional abandonment and trust, which is the crux of the reactive harmonic style. The competency harmonic types(1, 3 and 5) are more concerned with working within systems/structures. The 1 focuses on doing things within the system, following rules and procedures (they don't want to be "wrong").

[Expat]

Interesting. 6 and 8 are both reactive harmonic types, so when problems ensue, they will both react emotionally, and look for a reaction in others. 6's will sort of get defensive and look for guidance, while simultaneously trying to maintain some autonomy in the situation. The 8 will more or less just impose their will on the situation. R&H used a metaphor for the reactive harmonic triad (4, 6 and 8): 4 wants to be rescued, 6 wants to rescue and be rescued and 8 just wants to rescue. Obviously these fixations stem from fears of emotional abandonment and trust, which is the crux of the reactive harmonic style. The competency harmonic types(1, 3 and 5) are more concerned with working within systems/structures. The 1 focuses on doing things within the system, following rules and procedures (they don't want to be "wrong").

According to this interpretation, as far as it goes, I am 8>6>>4, and 1 is really off "sideways".

If you are interested, I have written a lengthy real-life description of a recent event in my life in my blog in the WS, which I would see as 8 according to this.

Essentially I imposed my will in the situation to rescue myself, and others; and I even broke the rules and procedures of the system, to some extent, to do so.

I did not really seek "guidance"; I sought a measure of "political support", essentially covering myself that acting in that way wouldn't backfire politically. But it had nothing to do with getting guidance as to what to do; on the contrary, I imposed my will on the situation precisely because I was the only one who knew what to do.

[strrrng]

I did not really seek "guidance"; I sought a measure of "political support", essentially covering myself that acting in that way wouldn't backfire politically. But it had nothing to do with getting guidance as to what to do; on the contrary, I imposed my will on the situation precisely because I was the only one who knew what to do.

This definitely rules out 1, and points to either 6 or 8, as each can act as authority in different ways. The 6 will probably be more about defending his beliefs/associates, fighting for the collective whole, whereas the 8 would be more focused on simply maintaining control and not being fucked over or w/e lol. The 6 doesn't necessarily need guidance on what to do; they may simply gather supporters to have them there. The fact that you built up some support could point to 6, as an 8 would probably be more likely to go down swinging, regardless of who/what was behind him, but I won't jump to conclusions, as you could have just been acting strategically.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

This definitely rules out 1, and points to either 6 or 8, as each can act as authority in different ways. The 6 will probably be more about defending his beliefs/associates, fighting for the collective whole, whereas the 8 would be more focused on simply maintaining control and not being fucked over or w/e lol. The 6 doesn't necessarily need guidance on what to do; they may simply gather supporters to have them there. The fact that you built up some support could point to 6, as an 8 would probably be more likely to go down swinging, regardless of who/what was behind him, but I won't jump to conclusions, as you could have just been acting strategically.

@Expat and Strrrng, do you think it's possible that Expat is an 8, but at the same time acting to protect others, were 'static' bonds have been formed, is a manifestation of valueing, in this case the seeking of Expat?

[strrrng]

@Expat and Strrrng, do you think it's possible that Expat is an 8, but at the same time acting to protect others, were 'static' bonds have been formed, is a manifestation of valueing, in this case the seeking of Expat?

Possibly.

[Expat]

This definitely rules out 1, and points to either 6 or 8, as each can act as authority in different ways. The 6 will probably be more about defending his beliefs/associates, fighting for the collective whole, whereas the 8 would be more focused on simply maintaining control and not being fucked over or w/e lol. The 6 doesn't necessarily need guidance on what to do; they may simply gather supporters to have them there. The fact that you built up some support could point to 6, as an 8 would probably be more likely to go down swinging, regardless of who/what was behind him, but I won't jump to conclusions, as you could have just been acting strategically.

Again, the thread in my blog in the WS gives more information. I would say I was acting strategically. To be honest, in that particular episode, I was, in the final analysis, acting on my own behalf.

@Expat and Strrrng, do you think it's possible that Expat is an 8, but at the same time acting to protect others, were 'static' bonds have been formed, is a manifestation of valueing, in this case the seeking of Expat?

I can act to protect others, but in the particular episode I described I was acting, in the end, to protect myself from the effect of others' stupidity and incompetence.

The 6 will probably be more about defending his beliefs/associates, fighting for the collective whole, whereas the 8 would be more focused on simply maintaining control and not being fucked over or w/e lol.

I'm not sure what "defending my beliefs" would actually mean. I can't think of a situation where I would act for the purpose of defending my beliefs. I can think of acting to, say, do what I could to prevent a company or a government from doing something that I see as stupid, but my motivations would be related to the consequences of their actions, not my beliefs.

As for "collective whole" vs "maintaining control and not being fucked over", well, from my PoV the two are often interconnected, because if the "collective whole" goes under, I may well go with it.

But one thing that may define the difference: I have had no problem with leaving a company, or a country, if I thought it was going under. Rather than think I should try to "do my bit", I have had no problem in simply packing and leaving, and letting others sort it out. In such cases, I will be concerned only with my close ones, not with the "collective".

[strrrng]

I'm not sure what "defending my beliefs" would actually mean. I can't think of a situation where I would act for the purpose of defending my beliefs. I can think of acting to, say, do what I could to prevent a company or a government from doing something that I see as stupid, but my motivations would be related to the consequences of their actions, not my beliefs.

As for "collective whole" vs "maintaining control and not being fucked over", well, from my PoV the two are often interconnected, because if the "collective whole" goes under, I may well go with it.

But one thing that may define the difference: I have had no problem with leaving a company, or a country, if I thought it was going under. Rather than think I should try to "do my bit", I have had no problem in simply packing and leaving, and letting others sort it out. In such cases, I will be concerned only with my close ones, not with the "collective".

You quoted what I said as cyclops.

And this passage would suggest 8>6.

[Expat]

You quoted what I said as cyclops.

And this passage would suggest 8>6.

Apologies. Fixed.

[Expat]

Back to Ezra's type.

According to what we discussed right now, then, I would not know whether he is an 8 or cp6 because I don't know him deeply enough. Up to now I had seen no reason to question his self-typing as 8, and he can make the case of not being a cp6.

[aka-kitsune]

This is a serious question, albeit formulated without much serious thought behind it. Which is why I might as well place it here.

Is there any particular reason why, of all the enneatypes, only 6 should have something like the "cp version"? Yes I know why the "Bizarro" version of 6, in particular, would be "counter-phobic". Yet why shouldn't you have, say, the "counter-aggressive" 8 or something of the sort?

There is actually some corner of enneagram theorizing that has proposed this idea. To my knowledge, it's usually termed "counter-passion" and there are defs for each enneapoint version.

Pretty much not the mainstream, but bandied about occasionally by some of your amateur enneagramists.

[strrrng]

I think an explanation is needed. I'm very easy to convince with a logically-sound, well thought-out argument. This is because mine never are. I'll hold a viewpoint with extreme fanaticism, because I believe it, but then when someone convinces me otherwise, I'll switch to theirs, because if they've convinced me, it obviously makes sense.

This, to me, sounds more like what a 6 would do than an 8. If you're easy to convince, it probably suggests you are looking for something to be convinced of. And if you change stances frequently, on a whim, yet believe in each with ardor, this could also point to 6 (counter-phobic more so), as they are known to strongly defend any idea/system/person they've attached themselves to. But, due to their contradictory nature, they can and sometimes will simply dismiss an idea/system/person if it doesn't offer security or if there is something else they believe is better for them to believe in/attach to.

[Ezra]

FTR, I make threads because I want to throw ideas out there.

strrrng, I've probably asked you before, but what's the difference between the Three and the Six's need for "validation"? What is "validation" to a Six?

This, to me, sounds more like what a 6 would do than an 8. If you're easy to convince, it probably suggests you are looking for something to be convinced of. And if you change stances frequently, on a whim, yet believe in each with ardor, this could also point to 6 (counter-phobic more so), as they are known to strongly defend any idea/system/person they've attached themselves to. But, due to their contradictory nature, they can and sometimes will simply dismiss an idea/system/person if it doesn't offer security or if there is something else they believe is better for them to believe in/attach to.

Actually a very good point.

[strrrng]

strrrng, I've probably asked you before, but what's the difference between the Three and the Six's need for "validation"? What is "validation" to a Six?

First and foremost (and you probably already know this), the 3's need for validation is more about attention and admiration, due to them being in the heart triad, which essentially deals with narcissistic wounding and an underlying feeling of shame. The 6's form of validation is about security, as they are part of the head triad, which deals with fear and anxiety. The 3 wants validation of their external persona; the 6 wants to feel like there is support and guidance in reality. Secondly, they are both part of the attachment object relations group, which essentially deals with attaching one's self to things perceived as good, helpful or safe. The 3 attaches themselves to things so that their image may be further enhanced and validated; the 6 attaches themselves to things so that the perceived threats can be nullified and security maximized.

I probably shouldn't have used the term "validation," as it can have many meanings.

[Expat]

That is a very good explanation.