9w1 versus 5w6

[Kill4Me]

the difference is that 9w1s lack the antagonistic quality in them that 5w6s have. Intellectual war games...open dislike for idiocy....the poignant antisocial barrier 5w6s put up to keep people out even the most intellectual 9w1s lack. 9w1s have a more sprightly quality and is a non-aggressive type. a 9w1 will stand up for themselves, but they won't tell the person to "die." They won't say "drop dead" or 'fuck off'. The impression they give is that its not within their range to even just casually call somebody an asshat. 9w1s aren't the type to call the posting of descriptions "Garbage" (unless they read this post and then want to try to convince me they are not 9w1s by doing exactly what i said they wouldn't). Run those situations through 5w6-ville, it just doesn't hold up. Any 5w6 is capable of calling somebody an idiot or telling somebody to fuck off and die. The tonal quality is darker. That doesn't mean 9w1s never get irritated by things, but that the way they express it has a more positive tinge. Rather than call bad socionic descriptions garbage, the 9w1 might start a thread asking members to list their favorite authors in socionics and then leave it to another member to mention their distaste for a description in question. They might ask a seemingly confused question and hope that the question will pass the ball onto somebody else to say what they would rather not say/do themselves.

*course this is only good for distinguishing between 5w6 and 9w1, not 5w6 and other types (obviously).

[Simo]

How about 9w1 vs 5w4?

[The Exception]

I don't think all 5w6 are like what you describe. Mostly the unhealthy ones.

[Kill4Me]

How about 9w1 vs 5w4?

Just my experience and I don't have it as refined down as I do with 5w6 and 9w1. I'll put this out there and if I ever do happen to refine it down I'll post the descriptions. The two areas to look at the quality of detachment and the sense of boundaries. 5w4s are more comfortable being reclusive for a longer period. They are emotionally self-sufficient whereas 9w1s have more need to relate. They are more direct and detached. One 5w4 posted here for years never posting much more than quirky one liners. The habitual detachment especially becomes apparent in drama situations when everybody starts giving more of themselves and the 5w4 is still in detachment mode. Being detached for a 9w1 is really being disassociated. It’s like their vegging out. even with more intellectual 9w1s it might be vegging out on crossword puzzles or attending a philosophy lecture but not truly processing the gist of the presentation. 5w4 detachment doesn’t come at the expense of mental alertness or precision.

5w4s also have a much stronger sense of boundaries than 9w1s do. This is probably the best distinction as it speaks to both of the type's distortions about the world. Fives worldview assumes a vast separation of self between themselves and others and the nines worldview assumes more of an all is one in the universe.They have a stronger sense of boundaries between themselves and others and are very sensitive to having these stepped over. 9w1s have a weaker sense of boundaries between themselves and others, especially sx-first 9w1s….they lose a sense for where you end and others begin. 9w1s are still body types. They are more grounded in the belly so they aren’t as vulnerable to rejection if their ideas have been criticized or flat out rejected any more than any person would be. 5w4s otoh have more difficulty with that as their ideas are heavily infused with their emotional experience and is ultimaely where they derive their satisfaction from (hence the self-sufficience) and quality of life. To have this rejected is harder for them so its not uncommon to come across 5w4s that do hit and runs. They’ll make a movie, but then never attend opening night because its too painful to have their work rejected. They’ll just ditch it after their done and never turn back. This is also a good point of contrast between 5w4s and 4w5s.

[The Exception]

Just my experience and I don't have it as refined down as I do with 5w6 and 9w1. I'll put this out there and if I ever do happen to refine it down I'll post the descriptions. The two areas to look at the quality of detachment and the sense of boundaries. 5w4s are more comfortable being reclusive for a longer period. They are emotionally self-sufficient whereas 9w1s have more need to relate. They are more direct and detached. One 5w4 posted here for years never posting much more than quirky one liners. The habitual detachment especially becomes apparent in drama situations when everybody starts giving more of themselves and the 5w4 is still in detachment mode. Being detached for a 9w1 is really being disassociated. It’s like their vegging out. even with more intellectual 9w1s it might be vegging out on crossword puzzles or attending a philosophy lecture but not truly processing the gist of the presentation. 5w4 detachment doesn’t come at the expense of mental alertness or precision.

5w4s also have a much stronger sense of boundaries than 9w1s do. They have a stronger sense of boundaries between themselves and others and are very sensitive to having these stepped over. 9w1s have a weaker sense of boundaries between themselves and others, especially sx-first 9w1s….they lose a sense for where you end and others begin. 9w1s are still body types. They are more grounded in the belly so they aren’t as vulnerable to rejection if their ideas have been criticized or flat out rejected any more than any person would be. 5w4s otoh have more difficulty with that as their ideas are heavily infused with their emotional experience and is ultimaely where they derive their satisfaction from (hence the self-sufficience) and quality of life. To have this rejected is harder for them so its not uncommon to come across 5w4s that do hit and runs. They’ll make a movie, but then never attend opening night because its too painful to have their work rejected. They’ll just ditch it after their done and never turn back. This is also a good point of contrast between 5w4s and 4w5s.

I think I fit 5w4 better than 9w1 here. But I do fit 9w1 better than 5w6. I am very sensitive to having my boundaries stepped over. Sometimes I stand up for myself in these cases, sometimes not. Sometimes I have let people overstep my boundaries to avoid conflict but I am still well aware of the fact that they are overstepping them and I will see to it that they can only go so far. I am quite pliable and do give in alot but I never really lose the sense of my self. You did say though that this is especially true for SX variant, and I am SX last.

Rejection is one of the most painful things I can feel. I will go to great lengths to avoid it. Especially rejection of ideas, that is quite painful. I've never made a movie but I can relate to that example. I've done similar things on a smaller scale. Post some ideas on a topic online but then for a long time I hesistate to read the responses. I don't think I could ever be an author because I don't think I could stand the idea of having my creative work rejected or up to the scrutiny of reviewers and the general public.

[Kill4Me]

I don't think all 5w6 are like what you describe. Mostly the unhealthy ones.

Average 5w6s.

[The Exception]

Average 5w6s.

Just great. I'd hate to see what the unhealthy ones are like.

[Kill4Me]

I think I fit 5w4 better than 9w1 here. But I do fit 9w1 better than 5w6.

Perfect. The 5w4/9w1 didn't encapsulate sx-lasters or NT 9w1s all that great, I admit.

I am very sensitive to having my boundaries stepped over. Sometimes I stand up for myself in these cases, sometimes not. Sometimes I have let people overstep my boundaries to avoid conflict but I am still well aware of the fact that they are overstepping them and I will see to it that they can only go so far. I am quite pliable and do give in alot but I never really lose the sense of my self. You did say though that this is especially true for SX variant, and I am SX last.

Rejection is one of the most painful things I can feel. I will go to great lengths to avoid it. Especially rejection of ideas, that is quite painful. I've never made a movie but I can relate to that example. I've done similar things on a smaller scale. Post some ideas on a topic online but then for a long time I hesistate to read the responses. I don't think I could ever be an author because I don't think I could stand the idea of having my creative work rejected or up to the scrutiny of reviewers and the general public.

and this part:

The habitual detachment especially becomes apparent in drama situations when everybody starts giving more of themselves and the 5w4 is still in detachment mode. Being detached for a 9w1 is really being disassociated. It’s like their vegging out. even with more intellectual 9w1s it might be vegging out on crossword puzzles or attending a philosophy lecture but not truly processing the gist of the presentation. 5w4 detachment doesn’t come at the expense of mental alertness or precision.

[The Exception]

Perfect. The 5w4/9w1 didn't encapsulate sx-lasters or NT 9w1s all that great, I admit.



and this part:

The habitual detachment especially becomes apparent in drama situations when everybody starts giving more of themselves and the 5w4 is still in detachment mode. Being detached for a 9w1 is really being disassociated. It’s like their vegging out. even with more intellectual 9w1s it might be vegging out on crossword puzzles or attending a philosophy lecture but not truly processing the gist of the presentation. 5w4 detachment doesn’t come at the expense of mental alertness or precision.

That part doesn't relate to me much either. Well the vegging out yes, but I don't think I ever lose the 'gist.'

[Kill4Me]

That part doesn't relate to me much either. Well the vegging out yes, but I don't think I ever lose the 'gist.'

All right.

I haven't noticed the habitual detachment part in you that I have with 5w4s....It's like a one liner thing they can keep doing for long periods of time.

I would direct you to Evee's posts (recently banned) over at typology central if you read that board ever....she's one of the most purest 5w4s I've seen since Scapegrace.

you're the most 5ish 9w1 I've come across here....so when I find the thing that you absolutely can't relate to I'll have the 5w4-9w1 description refined down to its purest form.

[The Exception]

All right.

I haven't noticed the habitual detachment part in you that I have with 5w4s....It's like a one liner thing they can keep doing for long periods of time.

I would direct you to Evee's posts (recently banned) over at typology central if you read that board ever....she's one of the most purest 5w4s I've seen since Scapegrace.

you're the most 5ish 9w1 I've come across here....so when I find the thing that you absolutely can't relate to I'll have the 5w4-9w1 description refined down to its purest form.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe your typing isn't as infallible as you like to think it is?

I read Typology Central off and on. It's been awhile since I've been posting regularly. Socionics is my main obsession right now. With a little enneagram on the side.

I am quite confident I have both 5 and 9 in the trifix. The question is which one is the dominant type?

[Kill4Me]

Have you considered the possibility that maybe your typing isn't as infallible as you like to think it is?

I read Typology Central off and on. It's been awhile since I've been posting regularly. Socionics is my main obsession right now. With a little enneagram on the side.

I am quite confident I have both 5 and 9 in the trifix. The question is which one is the dominant type?

I am sure of your type....the ILI part might be throwing you a curveball when it comes to finally choosing one.

Typology Central is the first board I will invade.

[The Exception]

I am sure of your type....the ILI part might be throwing you a curveball when it comes to finally choosing one.

Typology Central is the first board I will invade.

Why do you think I'm ILI?

I can assure you I'm not ILI. I'm definitely not Ni/Se valuing. Not gamma.

[darya]

Have you considered the possibility that maybe your typing isn't as infallible as you like to think it is?

I read Typology Central off and on. It's been awhile since I've been posting regularly. Socionics is my main obsession right now. With a little enneagram on the side.

I am quite confident I have both 5 and 9 in the trifix. The question is which one is the dominant type?

I'm also quite confident your core type is 9w1, but I can see your 5 fix also. The reason for this is (besides your 9w1 avatar of cutesy small animals : P), that 5w6 core would never give such an ethical vibe. 5w6 is one of the most logically objective and systematic types and with you there's too much ethical judgments and intellectual blurriness.

If you'd be 5w6 then you had to be either LII or SLI. As I see you, you are too fragile and concerned with morality to be 5w6 . I know a few 5w6 LII's and they have stronger boundaries and more of i don't give a fuck attitude. They are also quite misantrophic and very convinced into their own intellectual superiority - when they get annoyed by someone's argument they quickly go to "all stupid people in the world should die". Se poplr with them is not nearly as evident as it is in E9's. Do you think an 5w6 LII would really get so hurt when somebody would criticize their favourite show? No, they would argue, offend the opponents taste and just don't give a fuck in the end (as in their mind they're the much smarter one anyway.)

Also, you being still not sure about your core and sociotype after 10 (?) years sounds perfect for core 9.

I don't really know about your type though, not saying you're necesarilly ethical.

[Kill4Me]

Why do you think I'm ILI?

I can assure you I'm not ILI. I'm definitely not Ni/Se valuing. Not gamma.

so you don't think you're ILI?

[Kill4Me]

Guess you've not taken the bait yet for my "it makes no sense for you to even be considering core 5w6" follow up.

[Aylen]

Just great. I'd hate to see what the unhealthy ones are like.

Descriptive Adjectives for High Functioning Fives:

Knowledgeable	Ob0servant
Perceptive	Thoughtful
Insightful	Profound
Thorough	Wise
Gentle	Theorist
Speculative	Original
Innovative	Keeps Confidences

Adjectives for Average Functioning Fives:

Understanding	Researcher
Concentrated	Non-threatening
Self-Reliant	Interprets
Detached	Intense
Private	Distant

Adjectives for Low Functioning Fives:

Determined	Antagonistic
Eccentric	Reclusive
Cynical	Self-Absorbed
Fearfully uncertain	Alienated
Nihilist	Distorts ideas
Compartmentalizes	Isolates from reality

First column might be for 4 wing and second might be for 6 wing.

[marooned]

i might consider 5w4 > 5w6 if i were you @chips and underwear. i often pick up this need to assert one's identity as they've defined it from 4ish people, and sometimes a subdued competitiveness driven by envy (deep down) to show oneself as more special than others, or to define oneself in opposition to others, or to at least not allow one's personality to be defined by others... (things like this may come out). i feel i've noticed these "vibes" from you, which i consider possibly 4ish, and it would make sense to me abstractly as a wing pulling an otherwise more detached/objective 5 in that direction.

i'm also rather hesitant to attribute anything significant to your emotionality in terms of logic vs. ethics. for XII, and are both operating in the lead-role tradeoff. and *everyone* has personal feelings, even logical types, that they may want to share due to wanting to connect with someone or wanting someone to understand... or just, because there's an emotional overload.

i'm even more hesitant to attribute uncertainty in nailing down one's type especially over long periods of time, as being particularly fitting with core 9... i feel that's something one could think fitting from reading some 9 descriptions, but i'd also have to say uncertainty is a dominant theme (i would think) for especially E5 and 6, as well as for intuitives... in its way.

i don't know if you are a 5 or a 9 or something else. i see enneagram as more deep and personal than socionics because the most telling thing may be how particular enneagram patterns are dragging one down (creating suffering, life difficulties, etc.). i also think there's a lot of possible overlap that is difficult to tease apart between enneagram types.

[Kill4Me]

Average Five (R & H):

"They try to fend off people....enjoy subverting their beliefs. Their own ideas can be bizarre and disturbing, and they are scornful of those who cannot understand them."

Five vs Nine distinction (Ocean's Moonshine):

The mistype between Fives and Nines is a common mistype. In particular, it is generally Nines who mistype, or are mistyped by others, as Fives. Both Nines and Fives are withdrawn types and many Nines are intellectual, so there are some real commonalities. But Nines are generally attracted to thought systems which offer some sense of comfort and harmony. Fives, on the other hand, are frequently attracted to what disturbs them. More noticeably, Nines tend to relate to a wide variety of people easily and comfortably; this is hardly ever the case with Fives.

Key distinction right there.

https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/fives/

[Kill4Me]

i might consider 5w4 > 5w6 if i were you @chips and underwear. i often pick up this need to assert one's identity as they've defined it from 4ish people, and sometimes a subdued competitiveness driven by envy (deep down) to show oneself as more special than others, or to define oneself in opposition to others, or to at least not allow one's personality to be defined by others... (things like this may come out). i feel i've noticed these "vibes" from you, which i consider possibly 4ish, and it would make sense to me abstractly as a wing pulling an otherwise more detached/objective 5 in that direction.

a four wing. that would seem like an odd choice for her...if she's any sorta five, she would be a 5w6.

i'm even more hesitant to attribute uncertainty in nailing down one's type especially over long periods of time, as being particularly fitting with core 9... i feel that's something one could think fitting from reading some 9 descriptions, but i'd also have to say uncertainty is a dominant theme (i would think) for especially E5 and 6, as well as for intuitives... in its way.

Uncertainty isn't a dominant theme for 5s. They are a phobic type, yes, but they are not a self-doubting type. Intellectual arrogance is a far more dominant theme with fives. Furthermore, it would be very odd for a five to even consider 9 for themselves after that much investigation, or even after a little. That's not to say fives don't mistype themselves when they first start out with it, but nine isn't the type that they typically will mistype themselves as. I agree with Darya. The inner workings of the type are vastly different and that's not something I've seen play out. It is, however, far more typical for nines to mistype themselves as fives.

[marooned]

Uncertainty isn't a dominant theme for 5s. They are a phobic type, yes, but they are not a self-doubting type. Intellectual arrogance is a far more dominant theme with fives.

Their problem with anxiety, one of the issues common to the personality types of the Thinking Center, is related to their difficulty with perceiving reality objectively. They are afraid of allowing anyone or anything to influence them or their thoughts. Because they doubt their own ability to do, they fear that others’ agendas will overwhelm them. They fear that others are more powerful than they are and will control or possess them. Ironically, however, even average Fives are not unwilling to be possessed by an idea, as long as the idea has originated with them. Nothing must be allowed to influence their thinking lest their developing sense of confidence be diminished, although by relying solely on their own ideas and perceptions, and without testing them in the real world, Fives can become profoundly out of touch with reality.

The upshot of this is that average to unhealthy Fives are uncertain whether or not their perceptions of the environment are valid. They do not know what is real and what is the product of their minds. They project their anxiety-ridden thoughts and their aggressive impulses into the environment, becoming fearful of the antagonistic forces which seem to be arrayed against them. They gradually become convinced that their peculiar and increasingly dark interpretation of reality is the way things really are. In the end, they become so terrorized that they cannot act even though they are consumed by anxiety.

- See more at: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/t....AewZQy2R.dpuf

this snippet pulls out the contrast between needing to find an interpretation of reality while at the same time doubting one's perceptions. "do i have it right, or is it all in my head?" there's also a mention of the weak confidence the five may have in their conceptions - which for type 5 i think relates back to their concern about not being able to hack it in life. they need to understand and be prepared so they can get through a scary external world. this is why they fall back on their conceptions. the more confident in those conceptions they feel, the more they feel able to handle the external world. the problem is that these conceptions are kind of a substitute for "real knowledge" since they are created to counter the 5's lack of confidence in their ability to do anything... and i would think a 5 would be painfully aware of the distinctions between what you actually know vs. conceptions that you rely on and become over-confident in to counter a lack of confidence. the question of "am i crazy, is this really how reality is, or is it just in my mind" is one i might think might come up a lot for a lot of fives, especially the more brainy ones.

intellectual arrogance is kind of a cover for *not* feeling confident deep down... and it can fall apart because it was built up in response to fear to begin with. it arises (in the 5 context) when one is going towards conceptions to assuage their enneagram fixation as opposed to actually openly seeking reality "as it really is" (however that is...).

and this is how i'm looking at it now (all thoughts are subject to change). i'm aware that maybe this all seems too 6ish? but i think the difference is that the 5 goes it alone and forms their own conceptions whereas the 6 can't even get that far when they get locked up in uncertainty... so the 6 might rely on *others* to tell them how to conceptualize whereas the 5 insists on being independent. (and that just made 6 seem remarkably weak minded, almost inhumanly so - but you can't win when stereotyping!)

eta: also i think uncertainty and confidence are rather inversely related obviously. the more confident/capable the five feels in handling the world, the less uncertain they will be about their conceptions, and vice versa.

eta2: also, the things like dislike for idiocy or "intellectual war games" could arise out of... when something challenges the 5's conceptions it's more personally threatening, because inwardly there *is* this uncertainty about their own perceptions of reality. attacks on their conceptions would feel like attacks on their person, which could produce a volatile response. but i would add, that some 5s are probably more aggressive than others by nature.

[Kill4Me]

The intellectual arrogance isn't due to them trying to cover up their low confidence....the intellectual arrogance is due to the fact they really do know more than most people do on whatever their chosen area of interest is. You could say that the competency drive is the way they are trying to gain confidence to deal with the world. Many fives may have a deeper sense of not knowing enough which drives them to know more. But what they do know they know and are certain enough in the knowledge that they have, compared to the 3, 6, 9 types, in finding their type. Few types can be more dismissive in debates than a five. And it's quite common for fives to be overrepresented as experts in pretty much any field of endeavor that involves knowledge. It's not so much the desire to know, but the capacity to know and the extent one can penetrate the environment around them from a location in the mind that can be used for distinguishing between fives and other types.

The upshot of this is that average to unhealthy Fives are uncertain whether or not their perceptions of the environment are valid. They do not know what is real and what is the product of their minds. They project their anxiety-ridden thoughts and their aggressive impulses into the environment, becoming fearful of the antagonistic forces which seem to be arrayed against them. They gradually become convinced that their peculiar and increasingly dark interpretation of reality is the way things really are.

It ties into what I just posted:

"They try to fend off people....enjoy subverting their beliefs. Their own ideas can be bizarre and disturbing, and they are scornful of those who cannot understand them."

That's an outer response to the aspects of their unconscious that they are projecting outwardly.

[Aylen]

the difference is that 9w1s lack the antagonistic quality in them that 5w6s have. Intellectual war games...open dislike for idiocy....the poignant antisocial barrier 5w6s put up to keep people out even the most intellectual 9w1s lack. 9w1s have a more sprightly quality and is a non-aggressive type. a 9w1 will stand up for themselves, but they won't tell the person to "die." They won't say "drop dead" or 'fuck off'. The impression they give is that its not within their range to even just casually call somebody an asshat. 9w1s aren't the type to call the posting of descriptions "Garbage" (unless they read this post and then want to try to convince me they are not 9w1s by doing exactly what i said they wouldn't).

You can't be serious about any of this? I was going to try on 9w1 sx/so for the day but... you know if you are going to put stuff like this out someone is bound to challenge it. I have told plenty of people "fuck off" and "die" over the years, yet you seem to think I am a 9 core. Nice little disclaimer there at the end. I am sure it was meant to discourage people from challenging your perspective.



I also have an "open dislike for idiocy".

Edit: If it appears I am being antagonistic here it is because you have no flexibility until it comes to digging yourself out of a hole. Then you can bend, twist and turn things to make others seem irrational and ignorant (lacking knowledge). Speaking with authority does not make you one. I can see why some fall for it though. Good job.

[The Exception]

so you don't think you're ILI?

Guess you've not taken the bait yet for my "it makes no sense for you to even be considering core 5w6" follow up.

Did you truly mean ILI for my type or are you just joking with me?

I do not think I'm ILI. Like I said earlier in the thread, I am most definitely Ne/Si valuing.

[The Exception]

i might consider 5w4 > 5w6 if i were you @chips and underwear. i often pick up this need to assert one's identity as they've defined it from 4ish people, and sometimes a subdued competitiveness driven by envy (deep down) to show oneself as more special than others, or to define oneself in opposition to others, or to at least not allow one's personality to be defined by others... (things like this may come out). i feel i've noticed these "vibes" from you, which i consider possibly 4ish, and it would make sense to me abstractly as a wing pulling an otherwise more detached/objective 5 in that direction.

True, I tend to be prone to envy others whom I perceive as more 'unique' and 'special' than me.

i'm also rather hesitant to attribute anything significant to your emotionality in terms of logic vs. ethics. for XII, and are both operating in the lead-role tradeoff. and *everyone* has personal feelings, even logical types, that they may want to share due to wanting to connect with someone or wanting someone to understand... or just, because there's an emotional overload.

True. In my case I have a strong need to feel like I'm understood by others in all of my complexity.

i'm even more hesitant to attribute uncertainty in nailing down one's type especially over long periods of time, as being particularly fitting with core 9... i feel that's something one could think fitting from reading some 9 descriptions, but i'd also have to say uncertainty is a dominant theme (i would think) for especially E5 and 6, as well as for intuitives... in its way.

I'm not sure E5 would be so prone to uncertainty but E6, definitely.

Average Five (R & H):

"They try to fend off people....enjoy subverting their beliefs. Their own ideas can be bizarre and disturbing, and they are scornful of those who cannot understand them."

I don't enjoy subverting peoples' beliefs for fun or for the sake of it or just to prove my intellectual superiority. I cannot relate to that. I will point out inaccuracies or inconsistencies in someone's reasoning though.
I can have some rather bizarre and disturbing ideas at times but probably no more or less than the average person.
I don't know if scornful is the right word. I do feel hurt when I'm misunderstood but I also don't express every part of myself and I hold parts of myself back. So I expect that people won't perfectly understand me because there's parts of me they don't know.

Five vs Nine distinction (Ocean's Moonshine):

The mistype between Fives and Nines is a common mistype. In particular, it is generally Nines who mistype, or are mistyped by others, as Fives. Both Nines and Fives are withdrawn types and many Nines are intellectual, so there are some real commonalities. But Nines are generally attracted to thought systems which offer some sense of comfort and harmony. Fives, on the other hand, are frequently attracted to what disturbs them. More noticeably, Nines tend to relate to a wide variety of people easily and comfortably; this is hardly ever the case with Fives.

Key distinction right there.

https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/fives/

Well I prefer systems that bring comfort and harmony but I oftentimes find myself thinking about more disturbing things. I do seek out the truths of the world, even the painful ones. Also, I will sometimes imagine myself in rather disturbing scenarios and wonder if I was ever in that situation how I would cope and would I be psychologically able to. Knowing I could cope with whatever comes my way gives me some peace of mind. Ultimately type 9 is after that peace of mind. So going by that, 9 seems more likely.

I relate to most people on a surface level so that I'm able to 'get along' with them and carry on a simple conversation. But on a deep level, there are few people I truly relate to.

a four wing. that would seem like an odd choice for her...if she's any sorta five, she would be a 5w6.

Uncertainty isn't a dominant theme for 5s. They are a phobic type, yes, but they are not a self-doubting type. Intellectual arrogance is a far more dominant theme with fives. Furthermore, it would be very odd for a five to even consider 9 for themselves after that much investigation, or even after a little. That's not to say fives don't mistype themselves when they first start out with it, but nine isn't the type that they typically will mistype themselves as. I agree with Darya. The inner workings of the type are vastly different and that's not something I've seen play out. It is, however, far more typical for nines to mistype themselves as fives.

Why more 5w6 than 5w4?

What about 5w6, would they be more prone to uncertaintly considering they have a 6 wing. Type 6 is often very doubtful.
What types do you think 5 would most likely mistype as?

[The Exception]

this snippet pulls out the contrast between needing to find an interpretation of reality while at the same time doubting one's perceptions. "do i have it right, or is it all in my head?" there's also a mention of the weak confidence the five may have in their conceptions - which for type 5 i think relates back to their concern about not being able to hack it in life. they need to understand and be prepared so they can get through a scary external world. this is why they fall back on their conceptions. the more confident in those conceptions they feel, the more they feel able to handle the external world. the problem is that these conceptions are kind of a substitute for "real knowledge" since they are created to counter the 5's lack of confidence in their ability to do anything... and i would think a 5 would be painfully aware of the distinctions between what you actually know vs. conceptions that you rely on and become over-confident in to counter a lack of confidence. the question of "am i crazy, is this really how reality is, or is it just in my mind" is one i might think might come up a lot for a lot of fives, especially the more brainy ones.

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how much I relate to this. I don't perceive the external world as 'scary' in a general sense although there are aspects of it I do find scary and I want to feel prepared for those things. But I think my need to understand is more to satisfy my own intellectual curiosity and also it's a source of self-worth for me. I like to feel knowledgeable and competent at what I do. I do sometimes find myself asking the question "am I crazy?" but for me it's when I wonder if it's okay to think those things or I must be the only one that thinks that.

intellectual arrogance is kind of a cover for *not* feeling confident deep down... and it can fall apart because it was built up in response to fear to begin with. it arises (in the 5 context) when one is going towards conceptions to assuage their enneagram fixation as opposed to actually openly seeking reality "as it really is" (however that is...).

I don't think I do this but I know some 5's who behave that way. Aestrivex might be an example.

and this is how i'm looking at it now (all thoughts are subject to change). i'm aware that maybe this all seems too 6ish? but i think the difference is that the 5 goes it alone and forms their own conceptions whereas the 6 can't even get that far when they get locked up in uncertainty... so the 6 might rely on *others* to tell them how to conceptualize whereas the 5 insists on being independent. (and that just made 6 seem remarkably weak minded, almost inhumanly so - but you can't win when stereotyping!)

eta: also i think uncertainty and confidence are rather inversely related obviously. the more confident/capable the five feels in handling the world, the less uncertain they will be about their conceptions, and vice versa.

I think I'm more like 6 in this case. When I doubt something like my type, I want others to help me sort it out, to come to a better understanding.

eta2: also, the things like dislike for idiocy or "intellectual war games" could arise out of... when something challenges the 5's conceptions it's more personally threatening, because inwardly there *is* this uncertainty about their own perceptions of reality. attacks on their conceptions would feel like attacks on their person, which could produce a volatile response. but i would add, that some 5s are probably more aggressive than others by nature.

I think factors like stacking or trifix can affect how aggressive 5's appear. The SX 5's seem to appear more aggressive as well as those with an 8 or 1 fix.

The intellectual arrogance isn't due to them trying to cover up their low confidence....the intellectual arrogance is due to the fact they really do know more than most people do on whatever their chosen area of interest is. You could say that the competency drive is the way they are trying to gain confidence to deal with the world. Many fives may have a deeper sense of not knowing enough which drives them to know more. But what they do know they know and are certain enough in the knowledge that they have, compared to the 3, 6, 9 types, in finding their type. Few types can be more dismissive in debates than a five. And it's quite common for fives to be overrepresented as experts in pretty much any field of endeavor that involves knowledge. It's not so much the desire to know, but the capacity to know and the extent one can penetrate the environment around them from a location in the mind that can be used for distinguishing between fives and other types.

I do relate to not feeling like I know enough and having the desire to know more. I'm not very good with debates because I find cannot always adequately defend my point of view from a logical or factual standpoint. I can be easily swayed by other peoples' arguments if they are convincing enough. Intellectually, I'm not the dismissive type. If I am dismissive in a debate, it's more likely because it's an issue or something I feel strongly about emotionally or ethically. (Which is a reason why I'm thinking I might be an ethical type in socionics)

[Kill4Me]

Did you truly mean ILI for my type or are you just joking with me?

Hell nah, I wasn't joking.. You have to keep in mind that I'm looking at it from a lofty perspective....a 1,000 miles up in the sky and putting you next to other 9w1s I know. ILI 9w1s exist. ILI resembles type 5....notably 5w6. So an ILI 9w1 will be a more fiveish 9w1. They won't resemble the stereotypical 5w6ish ILI (my 5w6 vs 9w1 description also holds up for distinguishing ILI 5w6s and ILI 9w1s). Now find me one. Tag, you're it. An ILI 9w1 will have a different flavor to their cognition than an ILI 5w6 will, so already spotting one will be a case of first impression for many on the board. And if you don't even think you could be ILI, then you really don't need to be considering 5w6. 5w6 only correlates with two types in socionics: LII and ILI. LII 5w6 will have an easy time seeing themselves as a ILI and not assume I would be joking with them or seem blown away by the prospect. Even IEI 5w4 would have an easy time seeing why somebody else would see them as an ILI. In fact, they would have likely seen the ILI tag coming from a mile away and already have created some new idea to account for the discrepancy.

Why more 5w6 than 5w4?

You ask a lot of questions like phobic 5w6s do. Ad infinitum. And the type of questions that you ask are the kind that 5w4s would just go by their own intuition on. 5w6 is your best choice for a head fix.

What about 5w6, would they be more prone to uncertaintly considering they have a 6 wing.

5w4s are more in touch with their own inner knowing. If the 5w4 is an academic of some kind, they’ll have a more outsider quality than 5w6s do. 5w4 insights run more counterintuitive to what's typical/mainstream/normative. In a conflict, it’s far more likely for a 5w6 to pound somebody over the head with classifications. They will bring in research to moron crunch with, like ’this study shows….’ kind of thing, quote information by a noted author ad nauseam, and make correlations between different systems of classification. 5w6 is a more stereotypical ILI. 5w4s don't do that....they have a different style of moron crunching. They get enough emotional satisfaction out of creating their own ideas to keep people at arm’s length, that they would withdraw from the conflict before they started pulling out academic literature. They would rather create their own ideas about types than quote an author. The 5w4 approach to typology, when they do have one, is to collect real life examples of the types and write their own profiles. 5w4s that take typology seriously tend to be dismissive towards authors in the field; in many cases not even bothering to really read them. They bring more imagination to the table and are contemptuous of reductive explanations. 5w4s aren’t the type of 5 that will be pounding on the evolutionary psychology drum. They have a more textured worldview than 5w6s do and more draw towards examining things from a philosophical standpoint. For 5w4s, nobody has any real legitimate claim to being an authority on the topic, so in the absence of any real authority 5w4s are much quicker to assert their own ideas....“I know better than they do”. They are more nihilistic in a sense but also more independent from the conclusions that the noted authorities in any given field come to. 5w4 is truly the more arrogant one.

What types do you think 5 would most likely mistype as?

5w4s: 4w5
5w6s: 5w4, 6w5

The real question to ask yourself is why are you even still considering 5w6. Just settle on 9w1 so/sp already. Geez.

[marooned]

The intellectual arrogance isn't due to them trying to cover up their low confidence....the intellectual arrogance is due to the fact they really do know more than most people do on whatever their chosen area of interest is.

but why be arrogant about it unless you have something to prove? i see an *arrogant* assertion of "i know more about x subject than most people, which is why you should listen to my expert opinion" as a very ego-driven stance. what if you're actually *wrong* in your expert opinion? you know you know a lot about [x subject] and that is something you can fall back on, but even knowing a lot doesn't mean you will always be right. why is it so important then to be right? because if you're wrong, it can call your perceptions of reality into question... and you need those perception to feel like you have the competence to get through your life. so in a way there is an underlying desperation. because deep down you know that you can't *truly* perhaps know anything, which is why you so carefully crafted all of your conceptions in the first place. they are what protect you from the panic of not being able to interpret anything - of having no confidence in your ability to do so. so, do you see why this stance speaks to an ego-driven thing? something that defends the psyche?

of course you really can know more than most people in [x subject], and you could be simply stating what you perceive as a fact. but if arrogance is involved, it's not simply a cold objective statement but an ego-driven issue (even if it happens to be true). imo, arrogance is often a cover. it's just that its origins may lie deep down. but imagine how much easier it feels to get through life practically, functionally, professionally etc. if you have some arrogance. it will get you into trouble, but if your fear fixation centers around your competence, in a way that's far better than the alternative, which is uncertainty and panic. (if you are in the state of fear, you won't be able to be competent for sure.)

that said, it's my impression that many type fives are comfortable with uncertainty, especially if ego because that simply is the kind of medium their consciousness is in often.

also, the piece i'm puzzling over is the connection between confidence in one's perception and competence in practical life matters. both are coming into play here and are interconnected with one another.

ps: arrogance is also a way to push people away.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

the difference is that 9w1s lack the antagonistic quality in them that 5w6s have. Intellectual war games...open dislike for idiocy....the poignant antisocial barrier 5w6s put up to keep people out even the most intellectual 9w1s lack. 9w1s have a more sprightly quality and is a non-aggressive type. a 9w1 will stand up for themselves, but they won't tell the person to "die." They won't say "drop dead" or 'fuck off'. The impression they give is that its not within their range to even just casually call somebody an asshat. 9w1s aren't the type to call the posting of descriptions "Garbage" (unless they read this post and then want to try to convince me they are not 9w1s by doing exactly what i said they wouldn't). Run those situations through 5w6-ville, it just doesn't hold up. Any 5w6 is capable of calling somebody an idiot or telling somebody to fuck off and die. The tonal quality is darker. That doesn't mean 9w1s never get irritated by things, but that the way they express it has a more positive tinge. Rather than call bad socionic descriptions garbage, the 9w1 might start a thread asking members to list their favorite authors in socionics and then leave it to another member to mention their distaste for a description in question. They might ask a seemingly confused question and hope that the question will pass the ball onto somebody else to say what they would rather not say/do themselves.

You sound way too influenced by how people act on the internet. God I've met so many people that online sound like cutie helpless dorks but IRL they have this intense serious bite. And vice-versa.

[The Exception]

Hell nah, I wasn't joking.. You have to keep in mind that I'm looking at it from a lofty perspective....a 1,000 miles up in the sky and putting you next to other 9w1s I know. ILI 9w1s exist. ILI resembles type 5....notably 5w6. So an ILI 9w1 will be a more fiveish 9w1. They won't resemble the stereotypical 5w6ish ILI (my 5w6 vs 9w1 description also holds up for distinguishing ILI 5w6s and ILI 9w1s). Now find me one. Tag, you're it. An ILI 9w1 will have a different flavor to their cognition than an ILI 5w6 will, so already spotting one will be a case of first impression for many on the board. And if you don't even think you could be ILI, then you really don't need to be considering 5w6. 5w6 only correlates with two types in socionics: LII and ILI. LII 5w6 will have an easy time seeing themselves as a ILI and not assume I would be joking with them or seem blown away by the prospect. Even IEI 5w4 would have an easy time seeing why somebody else would see them as an ILI. In fact, they would have likely seen the ILI tag coming from a mile away and already have created some new idea to account for the discrepancy.

I can see why people new to socionics might mistype me as an ILI since I do have strong Ni and they might be looking at it more in terms of dichotomies (introverted, intuitive, logical, irrational) than from model A. Especially beginners. But on the model A, my Ni is in the demonstrative position, so it's a strong 4-D function but it's not a valued one. Nonetheless, I do use it alot.

You still haven't explained to me why you think I'm ILI rather than LII or EII, both of which I think are more likely than ILI. Also strong Ni, but devalued with Se PoLR>

You ask a lot of questions like phobic 5w6s do. Ad infinitum. And the type of questions that you ask are the kind that 5w4s would just go by their own intuition on. 5w6 is your best choice for a head fix.

Yes, I do ask alot of questions, I'm not afraid to admit to that.

5w6 with a head fix makes sense if I'm 9w1 as my core type. What would you say my heart fix is out of curiosity.

5w4s are more in touch with their own inner knowing. If the 5w4 is an academic of some kind, they’ll have a more outsider quality than 5w6s do. 5w4 insights run more counterintuitive to what's typical/mainstream/normative. In a conflict, it’s far more likely for a 5w6 to pound somebody over the head with classifications. They will bring in research to moron crunch with, like ’this study shows….’ kind of thing, quote information by a noted author ad nauseam, and make correlations between different systems of classification. 5w6 is a more stereotypical ILI. 5w4s don't do that....they have a different style of moron crunching. They get enough emotional satisfaction out of creating their own ideas to keep people at arm’s length, that they would withdraw from the conflict before they started pulling out academic literature. They would rather create their own ideas about types than quote an author. The 5w4 approach to typology, when they do have one, is to collect real life examples of the types and write their own profiles. 5w4s that take typology seriously tend to be dismissive towards authors in the field; in many cases not even bothering to really read them. They bring more imagination to the table and are contemptuous of reductive explanations. 5w4s aren’t the type of 5 that will be pounding on the evolutionary psychology drum. They have a more textured worldview than 5w6s do and more draw towards examining things from a philosophical standpoint. For 5w4s, nobody has any real legitimate claim to being an authority on the topic, so in the absence of any real authority 5w4s are much quicker to assert their own ideas....“I know better than they do”. They are more nihilistic in a sense but also more independent from the conclusions that the noted authorities in any given field come to. 5w4 is truly the more arrogant one.

Well if that's the case, 5w6 fits me more than 5w4.

[marooned]

i thought this was interesting, which isn't really about this topic, but it fits in with my posts at least:

Misidentifying Fives and Sixes

Fives and Sixes are both Thinking types and, when educated, can both be quite intellectual. It is far more common for Sixes to mistype as Fives, but for some easily understood reasons. Of the two types, Sixes tend to be more linear and analytical in their thinking because they are interested in troubleshooting, in prediction, and in establishing methods that can be repeated. Thus, contrary to popular belief, the world of academia and higher education is more the realm of Sixes than of Fives. Academia teaches students to work with advisors and mentors, to cite sources and back up arguments with quotes from authorities, to follow proper procedures in papers and theses, and so forth–all type Six values.

Fives are much more non-linear in their thinking. They are interested in finding out where established theories break down and in developing iconoclastic ideas that shake up structures and established methods. Fives are, generally speaking, bolder than Sixes in their positions and creativity, but also far less practical. Fives feel that they can only trust their own minds to come to conclusions–they believe that everyone else is likely to be less well-informed. Sixes get frantic trying to find something to trust precisely because they do not trust their own minds to come to meaningful conclusions.

source: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/m....9wqvF9Gh.dpuf

[The Exception]

i thought this was interesting, which isn't really about this topic, but it fits in with my posts at least:

Misidentifying Fives and Sixes

Fives and Sixes are both Thinking types and, when educated, can both be quite intellectual. It is far more common for Sixes to mistype as Fives, but for some easily understood reasons. Of the two types, Sixes tend to be more linear and analytical in their thinking because they are interested in troubleshooting, in prediction, and in establishing methods that can be repeated. Thus, contrary to popular belief, the world of academia and higher education is more the realm of Sixes than of Fives. Academia teaches students to work with advisors and mentors, to cite sources and back up arguments with quotes from authorities, to follow proper procedures in papers and theses, and so forth–all type Six values.

Fives are much more non-linear in their thinking. They are interested in finding out where established theories break down and in developing iconoclastic ideas that shake up structures and established methods. Fives are, generally speaking, bolder than Sixes in their positions and creativity, but also far less practical. Fives feel that they can only trust their own minds to come to conclusions–they believe that everyone else is likely to be less well-informed. Sixes get frantic trying to find something to trust precisely because they do not trust their own minds to come to meaningful conclusions.

I'm somewhere in between these two. I'm more nonlinear like the five but I'm also willing to trust the minds of others and sometimes trust their minds more than my own. I'm both confident and unconfident in my conclusions depending on the topic. I'm more theoretical than practical but I don't know that my ideas are particularly iconclastic. It's more the case I find them personally amusing rather than trying to shake up some established structure or method.

But that said, I don't like the academia environment. I find it straining to cite sources and follow proper procedures in papers in thesis. It takes all the fun and joy out of learning and exploring a field. I'm more interested in convincing myself than others. With theories and the like I'll often say things like "I read somewhere that....." and I am poor at remembering the source. The source seems less relevant to me than the information itself. As long as the information is interesting to me, where it came from is less important. But I could also see that as a Ti+Ne > Te+Ni thing.

[Kill4Me]

but why be arrogant about it unless you have something to prove? i see an *arrogant* assertion of "i know more about x subject than most people, which is why you should listen to my expert opinion" as a very ego-driven stance.

Being capable and competent is more the ego-driven stance for 5s. I've never said otherwise....each enneagram type has an ego (to that extent that's something to be assumed, I think, in any discussion of enneagram types). Acquiring knowledge just so one can reinforce feelings of superiority by knowing more than others ("I'm the best") would be the domain of NT 3s.

what if you're actually *wrong* in your expert opinion? you know you know a lot about [x subject] and that is something you can fall back on, but even knowing a lot doesn't mean you will always be right. why is it so important then to be right? because if you're wrong, it can call your perceptions of reality into question... and you need those perception to feel like you have the competence to get through your life. so in a way there is an underlying desperation. because deep down you know that you can't *truly* perhaps know anything, which is why you so carefully crafted all of your conceptions in the first place. they are what protect you from the panic of not being able to interpret anything - of having no confidence in your ability to do so. so, do you see why this stance speaks to an ego-driven thing? something that defends the psyche?

That's more getting into type 1 -- where the 1's ego is heavily invested in being right. It's enough for fives to be competent, rational, and capable. That doesn't mean they have to be absolutely right nor that finding out they're wrong is such a devastating occurrence. For fives being wrong is usually an opportunity to learn something new and increase their level of mastery. If a five plays chess and makes a wrong move that loses them the game, the competency drive will have them back at the drawing board, investigating the move, gathering up more data about the move, reworking it etc. They made the move because they thought it was the most rational move given the variables at play and their level of competence, not because they're invested in doing everything absolutely right. 5w4s are usually perspectivists...I think it's more about them asserting their perspective and making a personal intellectual contribution than saying I know this about you or about x with absolute certainty. Stephen King is a good example of a 5w4. He's a competent novel writer. His view on writing novels would be more this is my perspective on how to write a novel but if you can find another way to do so, fine. A 1w9 otoh would be much more militant about 'this is the right way' to write a story or describe a scene....end of story. This is also where I can see a difference between sx/so 1w9 and sx/so 5w4. in drama sx/so 1w9 has a more angry response, they're coming from a place of passion whereas sx/so 5w4 will still seem detached but nevertheless competent and precise.

of course you really can know more than most people in [x subject], and you could be simply stating what you perceive as a fact. but if arrogance is involved, it's not simply a cold objective statement but an ego-driven issue (even if it happens to be true). imo, arrogance is often a cover. it's just that its origins may lie deep down. but imagine how much easier it feels to get through life practically, functionally, professionally etc. if you have some arrogance. it will get you into trouble, but if your fear fixation centers around your competence, in a way that's far better than the alternative, which is uncertainty and panic. (if you are in the state of fear, you won't be able to be competent for sure.)

that said, it's my impression that many type fives are comfortable with uncertainty, especially if ego because that simply is the kind of medium their consciousness is in often.

also, the piece i'm puzzling over is the connection between confidence in one's perception and competence in practical life matters. both are coming into play here and are interconnected with one another.

ps: arrogance is also a way to push people away.

They're comfortable enough with uncertainty that they're open to new information and never get too locked into any one conclusion. I made this point recently in distinguishing between 5s and 1s on another thread. I never said they had to be supremely certain, but that their certainty on a topic is something they acquire through their competency drive, and that's only really talking about social fives. sp5s and sx5s are not really so invested in being the expert as social fives are. Also keep in mind that not being too locked in to one's conclusion is not mutually exclusive with having one. You can have a conclusion and still be open to new information, and even still, respond arrogantly to information that is logically flawed.

[Kill4Me]

5w6 with a head fix makes sense if I'm 9w1 as my core type. What would you say my heart fix is out of curiosity.

3w4

Well if that's the case, 5w6 fits me more than 5w4.

I know. That's why I wouldn't even consider 5w4 for your type if you were any sort of five and see it as the fix to disqualify from your head fix. If you post on other boards circulate it so I can further my dominance over the enneagram....lul. And I think your response to the misidentifications Inumbra posted is stuff you'll want to consider for your socionics type. I know some ILI 9w1s that could relate to that.

[The Exception]

3w4

That's what I was leaning towards in my self-analysis.

I know. That's why I wouldn't even consider 5w4 for your type if you were any sort of five and see it as the fix to disqualify from your head fix. If you post on other boards circulate it so I can further my dominance over the enneagram....lul. And I think your response to the misidentifications Inumbra posted is stuff you'll want to consider for your socionics type. I know some ILI 9w1s that could relate to that.

So you think you're the enneagram nazi, huh? You think you have some monopoly on the enneagram? You wanna start an enneagram dictatorship and throw out all of the other enneagram typists out there because the @Kill4Me is the one true enneagram 'religion.'

You still haven't given me a rationale as to why ILI and not LII/EII for my socionics type.

[Kill4Me]

So you think you're the enneagram nazi, huh? You think you have some monopoly on the enneagram? You wanna start an enneagram dictatorship and throw out all of the other enneagram typists out there because the @Kill4Me is the one true enneagram 'religion.'

I want to be bigger than R & H.

You still haven't given me a rationale as to why ILI and not LII/EII for my socionics type.

I take it you mean giving you a model explanation. Like this is x-function, here's y-function. That's just placid. I want to persuade you and I don't think that model explanations have any persuasive force. I'm driven to dominate. To the extent I can't dominate without being banned I'll sublimate that into persuasion. You were befuddled at my mention of you being ILI. I converted that into a reason for you to stop considering 5w6. Once you realize that your consideration of 5w6 has overlap to your socionics type (ILI), and not your e-type, you will have an easier time seeing yourself as ILI. Then once that happens, the explanation for you being ILI based on the actual socionics model will be there and you will be more than capable to make it for yourself. I'm just planting the seed.

[Velvet]

I've told you before, 5s are sure about their intelligence (there is always this disturbing superiority), they never doubt it. You are a 9w1.