ISFps and friendship

[redbaron]

What do you think ISFps want most from a friend?

I think my ISFp friend wants one thing--he wants me to make him laugh and provide some excitement/craziness. And I do, and I enjoy it. But it just occurred to me today that that's probably the main reason he likes me. Now I'm not ENFp but I appear that way when I'm with him sometimes or when I get particularly excited about one of my plans. He loves it when I'm crazy about a project or when I can tell him funny stories about my kids. However I have noticed that if I'm low on energy or for whatever reason cannot (or will not) provide that energy, our friendship is at a standstill. If it's really obvious, he will ask me what's wrong. Otherwise the whole friendship crawls to a stop until I rev it up again. It's kinda interesting.

So what do the ISFps on this board want most from a friend (non-romantic)?

[astralsilky]

What do you think ISFps want most from a friend?

I think my ISFp friend wants one thing--he wants me to make him laugh and provide some excitement/craziness. And I do, and I enjoy it. But it just occurred to me today that that's probably the main reason he likes me. Now I'm not ENFp but I appear that way when I'm with him sometimes or when I get particularly excited about one of my plans. He loves it when I'm crazy about a project or when I can tell him funny stories about my kids. However I have noticed that if I'm low on energy or for whatever reason cannot (or will not) provide that energy, our friendship is at a standstill. If it's really obvious, he will ask me what's wrong. Otherwise the whole friendship crawls to a stop until I rev it up again. It's kinda interesting.

So what do the ISFps on this board want most from a friend (non-romantic)?

If I am an ISFp, then I'll say: sincerity, loyalty, kindness, exciting and interesting conversations on a variety of subjects, as well as deep philosophical and spiritual discussions which are personally meaningful for the both of us.

If I am not an ISFp ... well, this is still what my inner, sideswept facet of ISFp-ishness has to say on the matter.

[redbaron]

Thanks for answering. It was kind of a dumb question I guess. Everyone looks for different things I suppose, and yet we're all looking for trustworthiness, kindness, etc.

I think the fact that you're interested in deep philosophical and spiritual discussions may be an argument against your being ISFp! But that's just my opinion!

[astralsilky]

Thanks for answering. It was kind of a dumb question I guess. Everyone looks for different things I suppose, and yet we're all looking for trustworthiness, kindness, etc.

I think the fact that you're interested in deep philosophical and spiritual discussions may be an argument against your being ISFp! But that's just my opinion!

I don't know ... you think so?? Xenia Seeberg is allegedly ISFp (socionics.com), and doesn't she have a degree in Philosophy and/or Latin or something? Of course, that is just one example ... but the 1st that popped into my head.

[redbaron]

Thanks for answering. It was kind of a dumb question I guess. Everyone looks for different things I suppose, and yet we're all looking for trustworthiness, kindness, etc.

I think the fact that you're interested in deep philosophical and spiritual discussions may be an argument against your being ISFp! But that's just my opinion!

I don't know ... you think so?? Xenia Seeberg is allegedly ISFp (socionics.com), and doesn't she have a degree in Philosophy and/or Latin or something? Of course, that is just one example ... but the 1st that popped into my head.

Well definitely don't rule it out based on anything that *I* say! It's just that the ISFps I know really tend to steer clear of philosophical discussions unless they can pull something funny or lighthearted out of it. Now that my dad is older, he can get philosophical at times (which I think is different from having actual discussions about philosophy) but it doesn't last for long. When he decides it's getting too heavy, he gets up to get himself a big bowl of ice cream!

[astralsilky]

Thanks for answering. It was kind of a dumb question I guess. Everyone looks for different things I suppose, and yet we're all looking for trustworthiness, kindness, etc.

I think the fact that you're interested in deep philosophical and spiritual discussions may be an argument against your being ISFp! But that's just my opinion!

I don't know ... you think so?? Xenia Seeberg is allegedly ISFp (socionics.com), and doesn't she have a degree in Philosophy and/or Latin or something? Of course, that is just one example ... but the 1st that popped into my head.

Well definitely don't rule it out based on anything that *I* say! It's just that the ISFps I know really tend to steer clear of philosophical discussions unless they can pull something funny or lighthearted out of it. Now that my dad is older, he can get philosophical at times (which I think is different from having actual discussions about philosophy) but it doesn't last for long. When he decides it's getting too heavy, he gets up to get himself a big bowl of ice cream!

Hmm.

[Creepy-bg]

Xenia Seeberg is amazing...

[jelly grass]

i like philosophical talks. i think i do anyways? well...one of my friends likes to talk about parallel universes. like, the possibility of other universes out there.. that are exactly like ours, but with one minor difference that changes everything. you know? well yeah, that really interests her...and at first it was sorta cool to talk about, but now its boring.
so i guess, philosophical discussions are interesting. but talking about ideas that could be over and over bores me. unless it has some relevance to my life.

[jelly grass]

What do you think ISFps want most from a friend?

I think my ISFp friend wants one thing--he wants me to make him laugh and provide some excitement/craziness. And I do, and I enjoy it. But it just occurred to me today that that's probably the main reason he likes me. Now I'm not ENFp but I appear that way when I'm with him sometimes or when I get particularly excited about one of my plans. He loves it when I'm crazy about a project or when I can tell him funny stories about my kids. However I have noticed that if I'm low on energy or for whatever reason cannot (or will not) provide that energy, our friendship is at a standstill. If it's really obvious, he will ask me what's wrong. Otherwise the whole friendship crawls to a stop until I rev it up again. It's kinda interesting.

So what do the ISFps on this board want most from a friend (non-romantic)?

what do YOU get from the isfp in that relationship?

[Otter]

Thanks for answering. It was kind of a dumb question I guess. Everyone looks for different things I suppose, and yet we're all looking for trustworthiness, kindness, etc.

I think the fact that you're interested in deep philosophical and spiritual discussions may be an argument against your being ISFp! But that's just my opinion!

Why people think that ISFPs are stupid?

[Creepy-bg]

Thanks for answering. It was kind of a dumb question I guess. Everyone looks for different things I suppose, and yet we're all looking for trustworthiness, kindness, etc.

I think the fact that you're interested in deep philosophical and spiritual discussions may be an argument against your being ISFp! But that's just my opinion!

Why people think that ISFPs are stupid?

+4

[XoX]

Yo! Another ISFp thread. I will mark it so I can find it later. It seems more popular than my own.

[Ms. Kensington]

ISFp's dual is ENTp.. they would have to be pretty tolerant of philosophical discussions that seem to have no relevance to someone's everyday life, if not participatory in it.

I just heard Jared Leto (i think he's ISFp) talking the other day about some "out there" theory the other day. I don't know if it's so much the subject matter as the way that people are talking about something. They might also sort of like to listen more than talk about these theories. They might show more outside interest in these matters than leading thinking types because it is their HA and need to do more work to get at something that fufills these needs, as is the case with anyone's HA.

For example I rememeber reading that ENFps with their Te HA/Ti polr will be driven to pursue multiple degrees in order to fufill the Te HA (information). I could see an ISFp also wanting to gather more knowledge but only in certain subjects or if it is relevant to them (Ti>Te imo).

EDIT: please note that although I said that ENTps could talk about things that seem not relevant to others' everyday lives and also that an ISFp might want to gather knowledge about things that are relevant to them, I am talking about two different situations-- the first is the interests of a partner, and used "someone" in a general sense; and the second is about the isfp's own interests.

[detail]

They also often say "I think this too but i never knew how to put it into words!".

[redbaron]

What do you think ISFps want most from a friend?

I think my ISFp friend wants one thing--he wants me to make him laugh and provide some excitement/craziness. And I do, and I enjoy it. But it just occurred to me today that that's probably the main reason he likes me. Now I'm not ENFp but I appear that way when I'm with him sometimes or when I get particularly excited about one of my plans. He loves it when I'm crazy about a project or when I can tell him funny stories about my kids. However I have noticed that if I'm low on energy or for whatever reason cannot (or will not) provide that energy, our friendship is at a standstill. If it's really obvious, he will ask me what's wrong. Otherwise the whole friendship crawls to a stop until I rev it up again. It's kinda interesting.

So what do the ISFps on this board want most from a friend (non-romantic)?

what do YOU get from the isfp in that relationship?

Good question (I didn't see your post until now...for some reason the replies aren't going to my email). One of the main things I get is acceptance of my crazy ideas and thoughts. I feel like I can be myself, say whatever I really think and he will listen and even be amused by it. I can sense that he values our friendship the way that I do and he shows it in small ways without words which I appreciate. I also enjoy listening to him talk about whatever. And boy can he talk once he gets started. He can talk for a really long time about anything but seems to prefer talking about activities or people rather than abstract ideas.

I would never say ISFps are stupid! My dad's really smart and this friend of mine is also extremely intelligent. They are both tolerant of listening to any interests of someone else. I could start talking about my OWN philosophical ideas and they would listen attentively. I'm just saying that those things don't appear to be interests of theirs, things they would bring into the conversation on their own.

[misutii]

ISFps don't avoid philosophical discussions unless they find them volatile - i.e. someone being overly aggressive in their viewpoint.

I find that ISFps doubt their intellectual ability but this doesn't mean they're stupid, you just need to know how to talk to them about things. i.e. if they're morally opposed to abortion and you come out and say "your viewpoint is stupid blah blah blah" they'll change the subject. But that doesn't mean they won't talk about thier viewpoint, just that you need to understand why they have it before criticizing it

[taz]

Im pretty much like that what misutii say on philosophical stuff.
I tend to get in deep and opinionated conversation with my INTJ friend alot.

A friend to me (like most people list already) is some who value or show interest in me, patience with me (as to get me to open up) and is loyal as I would be loyal to them back. Or pretty much shows that they want to be my friend. And can get me to laugh of course. The person like to talk and make me talk (which is good for me whether I like it or not).

[redbaron]

ISFps don't avoid philosophical discussions unless they find them volatile - i.e. someone being overly aggressive in their viewpoint.

I find that ISFps doubt their intellectual ability but this doesn't mean they're stupid, you just need to know how to talk to them about things. i.e. if they're morally opposed to abortion and you come out and say "your viewpoint is stupid blah blah blah" they'll change the subject. But that doesn't mean they won't talk about thier viewpoint, just that you need to understand why they have it before criticizing it

I think this is exactly right. Upon thinking about it more, I realized that it's the conflict that the ISFps I know dislike. So if there were ever any serious philosophical arguing going on, they might run for the hills (unless it was done in fun). Otherwise, sure, they appreciate philosophy.

[jelly grass]

yeah, i agree with redbaron and misutii

[bronsie]

I would definately have to agree.. i love philosophy! but start to feel uncomfortable if discussions start getting too argumentative.
conflict = my worst nightmare

[thePirate]

One of my best friends is an isfp, but man..

Im talking to this ISFP and its like PULLING TEETH.

I love their laid back attitude, and that underlying understanding..

But getting to know them..its borderline boring at certain points..

That zest for life, enthusiasm..its only there sometimes..its more of a meh.

I dont know, theres just this lack of ambition..

How do you get to that ISFP drive, that excitement/sense of adventure?

Tell me your experiences, and thoughts on ISFP's.

BTW make no mistake, I love you guys.

[Rubicon]

If you find us boring, I don't know how you stand your duals, with their beer and pitbull attitude. (o:

[Rubicon]

wow, talk about close minded.

let's talk about misinterpretation instead :-P

[diljs]

Note to self: stop sitting around doing nothing and find some isfps to sit around doing nothing with.

[Khola aka Bee]

Oh gosh, that's exactly how I dread to be perceived


But I know what you mean...I can be very guarded myself. Ask questions in a laid back, slightly humorous way I guess? If you can find something they are passionate about, you will see them come alive! From there you can slowly edge the conversation to a more personal nature, but if it becomes to serious any ISFp will probably clam up a little.

Oh I wish I could express that part of me more without freaking out a little, I feel it is the thing that distances me from my peers the most, but it is almost involuntary.

[mikemex]

But getting to know them..its borderline boring at certain points..

Fe frustrates me. I find it so annoying when, for example, my ILE friend and my ESE brother talk and they start to invent a lot of things which are not true and they keep going and going just because they are after the feeling that there is harmony and joy.

It becomes obvious to me after a while that I prefer something I'm not so good at describing what it is. But I definitely hate such disregard for the truth.

[Creepy-female]

It's simple, actually. We're very enthusiastic when it's something we want to do. ^^ When something grabs my interest, it becomes a passion, almost to the exclusion of all else in life. The trick is, I have to be motivated about it. I want to know all the whys and wherefores of what exactly it is I'm doing, down to the last t. A full, complete understanding. No stone of knowledge is left unturned.

In my experience, ENFps are confusing in this way. My ENFp mom sometimes exhibits perplexing behavior. She will express a desire for me to be enthusiastic about something that is important to her. By the way she presents it, I figure it must be something worthwhile. But when I press her further as to why this is important to her, plus all the technical details, she's at a loss. She can't elaborate in the way I want. It's not convincing. My heart is appealed to, my sense of duty, loyalty.....but nowhere is my brain, my mind appealed to. There's no structure that I can relate, cling to. In other words, no Ti.

Another thing that confuses me is the way she expends her energy. She's got all these pet projects and she'll dole them out with abandon. But oftentimes it seems they're just whims, not important to me - not even important to her. I don't understand it. I'll try to do a good job of the first request and by the time I'm halfway through she's got 5 more "projects" and she's forgotten she asked me to do the first 4. I have a hard time because when I press her and try to get a sense of what things are priorities, she'll elude me with some sort of loyalty spiel and try to guilt trip me into complying. I'll do it, but feel miserable and sort of short changed for a while. To me, it's hard to see where her priorities are, and why they make sense.

Because it's all about priorities. What other people might call lazy, isn't to me. Why should I run around mindless expending energy into projects and things I don't even give two hoots about? That would simply lead to feelings of fakeness, of pointlessness, of emptyness. I would wonder where my life was going. Granted, sometimes we have to buck up and do things we don't want. But where do you draw the line? The Deltas in my life draw the line at a different place than I do, obviously. To me, that "push through the pain" message too often is a sign I'm in the wrong place, that I need to move, change. It doesn't mean I can simply plough through with a gut of pure willpower and expect everything to change. I need to change up my environment, change my way of thinking. The "endure" philosophy only leads me into a hopeless depressive state.

You see, I can only speak for myself, but I believe this is in line with Alphas [edit: ISFps] - correct me if I'm wrong. I believe they experience reality in a rather immediate sense. It's not a bad thing, and it doesn't make them shallow - they are indeed very introspective, theory-loving people. However, this immediateness can lead to many different ways of being. It can lead to a discouragement, a hopelessness, what some people label as "emo"....a type of "emo" that not even the darkest deepest most despairing Beta can even hope to match, because when the flow of reality is immediate, it can lead the Alpha [ISFp] to conclude "neverending". Their pain is immediate, and thus they perceive it to be forever. Without a change of some sort, you can easily fall into the deepest pits of despair humanity has possesion of. Does this sound silly to you? Well, it might be to some people. But it's a very real form of pain that requires a certain form of help to rise above.

Wait, can I even chalk this up to quadra values? Honestly I have no clue. Maybe I'm deluding myself and these conflicts are not a product of quadras, but universal.

But anyway, I would question your label "lack of ambition". Is it lack of ambition for things that are important to you? That's pretty selfish, in my eyes, to label someone else as "lazy" because their definition of enjoyment and the things they find to be fulfilling are different than yours. In this case I'd say try a little "underlying understanding". Try to open up your worldview a little. It most likely won't kill you to step back a little and stop labeling people as "lazy" but instead "different than me, and that's ok". Liveandletlive. A little. If you can.

Not saying that you necessarily do this, of course. I don't want to make too many assumptions, as I don't know all the details of your experience with ISFps. But that's my gut reaction. ^^

Fe frustrates me. I find it so annoying when, for example, my ILE friend and my ESE brother talk and they start to invent a lot of things which are not true and they keep going and going just because they are after the feeling that there is harmony and joy.

It becomes obvious to me after a while that I prefer something I'm not so good at describing what it is. But I definitely hate such disregard for the truth.

Because your definition of "truth" is different than theirs? Alphas pick immediate experiences and translate them into overarching patterns. If one immediate experience is unpleasant, the whole pattern - life - becomes unpleasant. So they manipulate their environment - you don't like the pattern? Change it. Other quadras may label this manipulating of the environment as "shallow, silly, unproductive, unrealistic" and of course it may be for the respective quadras. However, for Alphas, this behavior is a means of survival. Alphas need to change their environments around, to brainstorm, to "play", because they actually believe in their theories about life and human nature and are thus prone to be depressed by those same theories unless they contain a sizable chunk of immediate gratification that proves them wrong, in a sense.

[xyz]

If you find us boring, I don't know how you stand your duals, with their beer and pitbull attitude. (o:

hey! we like you too =]

[Rubicon]

You see, I can only speak for myself, but I believe this is in line with Alphas - correct me if I'm wrong. I believe they experience reality in a rather immediate sense. It's not a bad thing, and it doesn't make them shallow - they are indeed very introspective, theory-loving people. However, this immediateness can lead to many different ways of being. It can lead to a discouragement, a hopelessness, what some people label as "emo"....a type of "emo" that not even the darkest deepest most despairing Beta can even hope to match, because when the flow of reality is immediate, it can lead the Alpha to conclude "neverending". Their pain is immediate, and thus they perceive it to be forever. Without a change of some sort, you can easily fall into the deepest pits of despair humanity has possesion of. Does this sound silly to you? Well, it might be to some people. But it's a very real form of pain that requires a certain form of help to rise above.

It's probably more SEI than Alpha. Weak Ni. I know logically that states like that aren't going to last long, but it is hard to keep the big picture in mind and not throw away all my hard work on a whim.

But anyway, I would question your label "lack of ambition". Is it lack of ambition for things that are important to you? That's pretty selfish, in my eyes, to label someone else as "lazy" because their definition of enjoyment and the things they find to be fulfilling are different than yours. In this case I'd say try a little "underlying understanding". Try to open up your worldview a little. It most likely won't kill you to step back a little and stop labeling people as "lazy" but instead "different than me, and that's ok". Liveandletlive. A little. If you can.

In my experience with ENFps, we often don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to personal goals and ambitions. Like for me, something I get excited about is something I LOVE doing and working on. For ENFps, it seems like they have this end result in mind - this dream ... and this motivates them through drudgery, or doesn't lol - but it seems that enjoying the process is a bonus to them, not the point. To me, what's the point if you don't get something out of the doing of it. For instance, my ENFp brother has this goal of being a recording artist. And some of the songs he's written are pretty good, but he's not passionate about them - they're like a means to his end. He wants the public to like his songs - that's what he cares about. I was excited about working on them with him for awhile until I realised that he wasn't excited about his songs. Me - well, I'd have to completely believe in and be passionate about my compositions - then I would be excited about recording them and letting people listen to them.

Maybe what ENFps see as 'boring' about ISFps is the fact that I don't think we like sitting around talking about ambitions and things. We like to be doing. That's when we get excited. And when you go on about something you're excited about, I feel like saying "Well, let's get started! What are you waiting for?" Talking about something that seems like a faraway, elusive dream is more depressing than inspiring to me. Unless we're talking about putting a feasible plan into action.

[Khola aka Bee]

I LOVE this thread. You've all hit the nail on the head, I totally identify

[Creepy-female]

It's probably more SEI than Alpha. Weak Ni. I know logically that states like that aren't going to last long, but it is hard to keep the big picture in mind and not throw away all my hard work on a whim.

Yeah, but for me, I don't often really see a "big picture". Or if I do have some faint glimmerings of it, I view it as pointless. And I hate to acknowledge that a bigger picture is there, because that would be willing to admit that my actions have just been drifting - unmotivated by some bigger picture. Because I know they are drifting. I don't need someone else to try to get me to organize my actions so they will make sense. I don't purposefully manipulate my actions to satisfy some bigger system - I use the bigger system to explain my actions.

You know the expression "you can't see the forest for the trees?" To me, the forest is inconsequential to the trees. If you're doing well attending to the trees as best as you can, than it's a sign you're doing a good job. If you don't get the trees down, how the hell are you going to tackle something as big as a freaking forest?

Perhaps it's weak Ni, but it's also strong concious functions that deal with reality as an immediate thing. It's not just weak Ni, it's weak Ni combined with Si and Fe, perhaps?

Maybe what ENFps see as 'boring' about ISFps is the fact that I don't think we like sitting around talking about ambitions and things. We like to be doing. That's when we get excited. And when you go on about something you're excited about, I feel like saying "Well, let's get started! What are you waiting for?" Talking about something that seems like a faraway, elusive dream is more depressing than inspiring to me. Unless we're talking about putting a feasible plan into action.

Yes. If the circumstances are right, if there's nothing holding me back, I reach for my ambitions. However, the circumstances often prevent me from reaching a goal, and untill I've got them taken care of, I'm not going to overtly dwell on the ambition because that would cause unnecessarily mucking about in the problems holding me back, as well as an insatiable longing for the ambition to come true, immediately, before my pain tears at me any longer. Which would lead into a depressive spiral, because of course our ambitions aren't realized in a blink.

I don't like thinking about ambitions too much, untill I've actually got the resources at my disposal to achieve them. When I do, I'm wholehearted and thorough about achieving my goals. Which doesn't mean I won't get bored halfway through the goal. But that's a different bucket of worms. The point is, I want something, I have the resources, I achieve it. Pushy people telling me to have ambition is just really annoying because obviously I either

a) Don't share their viewpoints about what ambition is worthwhile, and thus don't want to do whatever it is they want or

b) Have already pondered the matter in depth, and realized I don't have the resources to accomplish it, so there's absolutely no point in dwelling on it.

[Rubicon]

Yeah, but for me, I don't often really see a "big picture". Or if I do have some faint glimmerings of it, I view it as pointless. And I hate to acknowledge that a bigger picture is there, because that would be willing to admit that my actions have just been drifting - unmotivated by some bigger picture. Because I know they are drifting. I don't need someone else to try to get me to organize my actions so they will make sense. I don't purposefully manipulate my actions to satisfy some bigger system - I use the bigger system to explain my actions.

You know the expression "you can't see the forest for the trees?" To me, the forest is inconsequential to the trees. If you're doing well attending to the trees as best as you can, than it's a sign you're doing a good job. If you don't get the trees down, how the hell are you going to tackle something as big as a freaking forest?

A "freaking forest" (c: is definitely an intimidating thing to behold, but I don't think it's inconsequential. If you're beating a path through the forest, you want to zoom out from time to time to make sure you're set to come out at the right spot and that you're not meandering in circles. Depends I guess though. If I'm doing something that I enjoy daily I probably wouldn't care where I end up. But realistically, most rewarding things in life involve a bit of forward planning, so I have to take a look at the forest so I know which trees to tackle. I do the planning part as quickly as possible, then try to forget I have a plan and just take it tree by tree. Lol Enough with the forest analogy!!

Perhaps it's weak Ni, but it's also strong concious functions that deal with reality as an immediate thing. It's not just weak Ni, it's weak Ni combined with Si and Fe, perhaps?

Yeah, that makes sense.

I don't like thinking about ambitions too much, untill I've actually got the resources at my disposal to achieve them. When I do, I'm wholehearted and thorough about achieving my goals. Which doesn't mean I won't get bored halfway through the goal. But that's a different bucket of worms. The point is, I want something, I have the resources, I achieve it. Pushy people telling me to have ambition is just really annoying because obviously I either

a) Don't share their viewpoints about what ambition is worthwhile, and thus don't want to do whatever it is they want or

b) Have already pondered the matter in depth, and realized I don't have the resources to accomplish it, so there's absolutely no point in dwelling on it.

Exactly.

[Creepy-female]

A "freaking forest" (c: is definitely an intimidating thing to behold, but I don't think it's inconsequential. If you're beating a path through the forest, you want to zoom out from time to time to make sure you're set to come out at the right spot and that you're not meandering in circles. Depends I guess though. If I'm doing something that I enjoy daily I probably wouldn't care where I end up. But realistically, most rewarding things in life involve a bit of forward planning, so I have to take a look at the forest so I know which trees to tackle. I do the planning part as quickly as possible, then try to forget I have a plan and just take it tree by tree. Lol Enough with the forest analogy!!

lol. I guess I don't really think of it as inconsequential exactly, I just pretend it is. I'm proud, you see. And probably in denial of the fact that ultimately, I'm not going in any particular direction. I suck at forward planning. I hate plans, and restrictions, and any sort of expectations. I hate the idea that anyone would be able to predict my actions. That's part of the reason I hate talking about ideals and goals so much. Most people don't even know my goals, and I'd keep it that way. Because my goals change halfway through accomplishing them. Everything, everyone changes at some point. And having someone else call me out on how the goal wasn't going to how I said it was at first is frustrating. Especially when I'm trying to experience the goal as it comes. I really hate any sort of time limit or limits in general, I'm terrible with them. Especially since they weren't a limit until someone pointed it out. I'd want to go against it just because it's trying to be encapsulate things that shouldn't be contained.

My escapism takes the form of simply not being able to function on other people's plans and schedules. Self distructing when they're imposed.

[Rubicon]

lol. I guess I don't really think of it as inconsequential exactly, I just pretend it is. I'm proud, you see. And probably in denial of the fact that ultimately, I'm not going in any particular direction. I suck at forward planning. I hate plans, and restrictions, and any sort of expectations. I hate the idea that anyone would be able to predict my actions. My escapism takes the form of simply not being able to function on other people's plans and schedules. Self distructing when they're imposed.

Me too. It's weird really. I really can't stand it when I tell someone what my plans are in the heat of the moment (lol), then they proceed to map out a route for me. And they're trying to help so I can't be mad, but I really just regret I told them anything and would prefer the person to think I'm ambling along with no destination in mind - for them to be pleasantly surprised when (or if) I get to a place worthy of their approval. Lol Because I'm not interested in the most direct and efficient route anyway - I'd prefer the scenic one, and I'd like to be free to change paths completely if I happen across one that looks more interesting. I work best when there is no pressure on me to perform. I'm terrible in job interviews because I hate playing up my abilities. I would prefer to prove myself on the job rather than stating my capabilities and then having to live up to them.

[thePirate]

Because it's all about priorities. What other people might call lazy, isn't to me. Why should I run around mindless expending energy into projects and things I don't even give two hoots about? That would simply lead to feelings of fakeness, of pointlessness, of emptyness.


But anyway, I would question your label "lack of ambition". Is it lack of ambition for things that are important to you? That's pretty selfish, in my eyes, to label someone else as "lazy" because their definition of enjoyment and the things they find to be fulfilling are different than yours. In this case I'd say try a little "underlying understanding". Try to open up your worldview a little. It most likely won't kill you to step back a little and stop labeling people as "lazy" but instead "different than me, and that's ok". Liveandletlive. A little. If you can.

Not saying that you necessarily do this, of course. I don't want to make too many assumptions, as I don't know all the details of your experience with ISFps. But that's my gut reaction. ^^

You know its funny, I find ISFP's to be really concerned with politeness, in the sense of being careful not to offend anyone.

Also, I didnt say lazy..its just that..it doesnt seem like they really know what they want to get out of life, or care for that matter..they seem like they have an IDEA, but nothing in terms of specifics..

It's probably more SEI than Alpha. Weak Ni. I know logically that states like that aren't going to last long, but it is hard to keep the big picture in mind and not throw away all my hard work on a whim.
In my experience with ENFps, we often don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to personal goals and ambitions. Like for me, something I get excited about is something I LOVE doing and working on. For ENFps, it seems like they have this end result in mind - this dream ... and this motivates them through drudgery, or doesn't lol - but it seems that enjoying the process is a bonus to them, not the point. To me, what's the point if you don't get something out of the doing of it. For instance, my ENFp brother has this goal of being a recording artist. And some of the songs he's written are pretty good, but he's not passionate about them - they're like a means to his end. He wants the public to like his songs - that's what he cares about. I was excited about working on them with him for awhile until I realised that he wasn't excited about his songs. Me - well, I'd have to completely believe in and be passionate about my compositions - then I would be excited about recording them and letting people listen to them.

Maybe what ENFps see as 'boring' about ISFps is the fact that I don't think we like sitting around talking about ambitions and things. We like to be doing. That's when we get excited. And when you go on about something you're excited about, I feel like saying "Well, let's get started! What are you waiting for?" Talking about something that seems like a faraway, elusive dream is more depressing than inspiring to me. Unless we're talking about putting a feasible plan into action.

Thanks for this post, lots of great insight. It's actually really funny that you mention your brother, because I am in the exact same position, and what you state is true in a sense for me. Meaning, sometimes I'll put out songs I know musically that SOUND good..because of the exposure and what the public likes to hear in order to get access to listeners, as opposed to putting out the stuff I really like off the bat. However, I've managed to cernter myself in order to find a medium between both.

(although, Im still working on it)

Also, I don't find that sort of 'go get em' attitude boring, I dont even see that in ISFPS. What I find boring is a lack of direction. I mean, I can see passion when I talk about certain things with them, but outside of what they are interested in..there doesnt seem to be a strong curiosity for LIFE.

I might not have worded that right.

Im all for living in the moment with a balance of future planning.

lol. I guess I don't really think of it as inconsequential exactly, I just pretend it is. I'm proud, you see. And probably in denial of the fact that ultimately, I'm not going in any particular direction. I suck at forward planning. I hate plans, and restrictions, and any sort of expectations. I hate the idea that anyone would be able to predict my actions. That's part of the reason I hate talking about ideals and goals so much. Most people don't even know my goals, and I'd keep it that way. Because my goals change halfway through accomplishing them. Everything, everyone changes at some point. And having someone else call me out on how the goal wasn't going to how I said it was at first is frustrating. Especially when I'm trying to experience the goal as it comes. I really hate any sort of time limit or limits in general, I'm terrible with them. Especially since they weren't a limit until someone pointed it out. I'd want to go against it just because it's trying to be encapsulate things that shouldn't be contained.

My escapism takes the form of simply not being able to function on other people's plans and schedules. Self distructing when they're imposed.

See, heres the thing..I GET THAT

I dislike plans/routines as much as the next person. However, I ACCEPT that it's a neccessary part of growth as a person. Being directionless - thats what I mean by lack of ambition. I dont even think its lazyness, but rather a state of confusion.

[BurntOrange]

I think this is either some sort of standard semi-duality misunderstanding thing or that you know some unhealthy SEIs and are attributing those experiences to the entire group, thePirate.

"That zest for life, enthusiasm..its only there sometimes..its more of a meh."

Does everyone have to find everything going on amazingly fascinating to have a zest for life? Are fun people not allowed to dislike certain things and find them uninteresting now? I mean, zest for life is something I'd attribute first and foremost to SEIs, and I don't think I'm the only one.

"I dont know, theres just this lack of ambition.."

I read that as trying to clarify why they don't have a zest for life/enthusiasm, since it came immediately afterwards. Anyway, ambition equaling zest for life or really anything of much value at all is a very personal belief.

"How do you get to that ISFP drive, that excitement/sense of adventure?"

Do something exciting and/or adventurous

I guess maybe you're asking how to get them to open up to you, let down their walls. Only thing I could really suggest for that is time spent with them. It'll happen organically if you just let it and don't try to force anything.

"Also, I didnt say lazy..its just that..it doesnt seem like they really know what they want to get out of life, or care for that matter..they seem like they have an IDEA, but nothing in terms of specifics.."

I'd say they tend to know what they want to get out of life and it's a lot simpler and saner than constantly living for some imagined future, people's expectations, or any number of things other than what they actually want to do in each particular instant.

"I mean, I can see passion when I talk about certain things with them, but outside of what they are interested in..there doesnt seem to be a strong curiosity for LIFE."

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, is it a normal thing to be interested in things you aren't interested in? Outside of the things this person likes, he doesn't like things (in LIFE)! OMG

"I dislike plans/routines as much as the next person. However, I ACCEPT that it's a neccessary part of growth as a person. Being directionless - thats what I mean by lack of ambition. I dont even think its lazyness, but rather a state of confusion."

It's a necessary part of growth FOR A CYLON. Your plan been found out son, now it on.

P.S. - stay strong SEIs. You're the only sane ones, no matter what all these crazy people try to tell you and make you do.

[BurntOrange]

Nice avatar though. Santouryu is so retarded but also so awesome. I had a friend really try to get me into anime a while back. In the end I found out I did dislike most of it and I wanted to punch him in the face so bad for making me watch Neon Genesis Evangelion, but I did start watching One Piece and now its pretty much the only TV show of any sort I watch regularly. It's just so much fun. I guess we have proof we're both infantiles haha.

[Wynch]

Does everyone have to find everything going on amazingly fascinating to have a zest for life? Are fun people not allowed to dislike certain things and find them uninteresting now? I mean, zest for life is something I'd attribute first and foremost to SEIs, and I don't think I'm the only one.

Ah, this was part of what I was going to say.

This is the other part:

I think this is part of the reason why ILE-SEI duality can sometimes work out. Correct me if I'm wrong, fellow ILEs but are you not used to the swing-and-miss approach to finding things to do with people. Personally, I don't like to be the one to be decisive so I like to offer a plethora of ridiculous suggestions. Dolphin was talking about how sometimes it's a matter of finding something that really grabs you interest, I think that's part of what we're good at as ENXp. An ILE friend will bombard you with interesting and exciting ideas and if they have a measure of self-confidence they won't be jaded by the fact that you seem disinterested by a lot of them. I used to have to do this with my ISFp roomie. In fact, more often than not somewhere inside of her she knew what she wanted, I just had to help her treasure hunt and find it because she never wanted to impose.

Perhaps the difference between ILE and IEE in relation to SEI is that ENFp has a firmer sense of what it is that they want, and a firmer sense of action. It's part of that delta desire for activity and productivity. Whereas ILEs, we're a little more prone to floating along until we find something truly excellent at which point we start skipping down the street with that maniacal glint in our eyes.

[Creepy-female]

You know its funny, I find ISFP's to be really concerned with politeness, in the sense of being careful not to offend anyone.

Is there something bad about that? lol. I'm not sure where you're going with this. I don't know why you make such a big deal about it. So I'm polite. What if I wasn't? Want me to be all over the board, offending you? I've done it before with people, making my views sound overly concrete and unquestionable....even though they actually weren't in my mind, but the phrasing tripped me up. Offending people just isn't worth it. Then you have to go to all the trouble of apologizing, or sustain a massive guilt trip until the experience has faded from your mind...plus no one is really infallible. It's probably a good thing to acknowledge opposition and changeability before things get messy. It's a common courtesy. And not something I attribute soley to ISFps either.

Also, I didnt say lazy..its just that..it doesnt seem like they really know what they want to get out of life, or care for that matter..they seem like they have an IDEA, but nothing in terms of specifics..

I already mentioned this, but they probably do have a specific idea....they just don't have the resources to accomplish it. And/or they may be waiting for that "perfect idea" mn0good mentioned to come along. I'm not sure what you're asking here. It sounds like you're asking them to rattle off their goals in a organized manner? ie; "When I'm 40 years old, I will have a successful career in organized crime. I will be leader of the Italian mafia. Also, I will have learned to make raspberry crepes." Uh, honestly, some of my goals aren't really tangible things. They're ideas. Tiny, wispy, baby ideas. I'm searching for knowledge, for things that will make those ideas expand. I want my decisions, my ambitions, to be the most well informed they can be. People prying and trying to force specific ideas out of me before they're solidified in my mind is off putting and makes me want to run in the other direction. Also remember what I mentioned about being open to change. If my direction, if my ambition is liable to change at any moment, why should I be forced to define it for you in concrete terms?

Also, I don't find that sort of 'go get em' attitude boring, I dont even see that in ISFPS. What I find boring is a lack of direction. I mean, I can see passion when I talk about certain things with them, but outside of what they are interested in..there doesnt seem to be a strong curiosity for LIFE.

Outside what they are interested in? lol. I don't really understand you here. just, lol. What are you trying to accomplish here? Do you want your ISFp to wake up in the morning, stretch like a cat, throw open the blinds and roar "Here I am, world! Ready or not! Try to take me on today! I WILL LIVE MY DREAMS!! BOOYAH!! ZEST FOR LIFE !11!111"

It's quite hard for me to try to figure out what you want, to figure out what you're asking. I'm trying to figure out the problem, to get to the root. I press you for details, and you get even vaguer. You reply with concepts, ideals. "zest for life" etc. You know, those things are amazing, beautiful, wonderful things, but my airy ideals are probably different than your airy ideals. If you can't give me anything concrete to work with here, I don't see how this is an actual problem. I see it as people with different priorities and definitions of goals being confused when they try to combine their goals and it doesn't work.

See, heres the thing..I GET THAT

I dislike plans/routines as much as the next person. However, I ACCEPT that it's a neccessary part of growth as a person. Being directionless - thats what I mean by lack of ambition. I dont even think its lazyness, but rather a state of confusion.

Who's confused here? ^^ I'm not confused. I already tried to explain some thought processes that might be viable in your situation. If they make sense, your ISFp isn't confused at all. Rather, you have a difference in values.

When I'm confused, I ask for help. I press for theory, for logical consistency, for overarching structures to help explain away the confusion.

It's kinda weird, because I've typed explanations till my ears bleed, and I still don't quite get why you're so vague. Quadra differences??

[diljs]

Ah, this was part of what I was going to say.

This is the other part:

I think this is part of the reason why ILE-SEI duality can sometimes work out. Correct me if I'm wrong, fellow ILEs but are you not used to the swing-and-miss approach to finding things to do with people. Personally, I don't like to be the one to be decisive so I like to offer a plethora of ridiculous suggestions.

I do this with friends a lot. I'm always trying to explain that I don't really care what we do, I just want to hang out. So I throw a bunch of ideas out there, and when someone finally goes "yeah let's do that", I think "sweet! someone likes my idea!"

With an SEI I like the concept that the more ridiculous my ideas, the more enthusiastic the SEI is about it. That sounds pretty awesome.