Share your thoughts...
Are ESEs/ESFjs manipulative?
Share your thoughts...
Last edited by Iwantpeace; 09-11-2020 at 04:51 PM.
I think ESE can be so strong with Fe that they pretty much manipulate the scene. Strong at Fe -> having power in the ethic realm. By doing so can get benefits and such since bad players and not a treat. But like you say a Ti lead will stick to their Ti etc.
Yes, subtle ethical manipulations first off. Telling me I should meet someone and then just happen to run i to said person in Walmart and making it slip out, known that I like hiking and this other person likes hiking wouldnt it be great if we got together? Just little transparent to me ethical fishing. Which is why I purposely keep secrets from you guys because it feels like you take stuff and run with it.
Second, Si manipulating. If I casually mention I loved Reeses Pieces cereal as a kid there might suddenly appear that brand cereal in the house. Just somehow it feels manipulative, cant put my finger on why.
love you guys though no hard feelings.
Manipulation is generally about Se+ethics. I don't see ESEs as manipulative but I know some who would describe them that way.
Yes, they are manipulative and it is because of Ni PolR
Ni is about the mind, and the PolR is very sensitive.
Ni polr is not satisfied until the person has been totally manipulated into the ESEs will.
ESE is constantly looking for doubts, that something is not right. Then they will not wait, they will influence that person so they'll cooperate
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
I have heard ESE saying: "I wish I studied psychology so I would understand people's mind better."
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Maybe to people who don't value Fe, it can appear that the ESE (or EIE) is manipulative?
Or maybe it can just be a misconception, and those ESEs are actually SEEs! (I think SEEs can be the greatest manipulators, maybe when unhealthy).
I'm Fi ego, and I think sometimes when I see Fe leading types interacting with people, I always think that they're being fake... though I can't see any intention of manipulating.
For EIEs, they can very good at convincing people of their ideas or opinions, they have a way with words, so they can be accused of manipulation.
I guess for ESEs also it would be similar, it's like harmless manipulation... I'm not really sure how to describe it because I don't understand it yet i guess.
Oh maybe it's an ExFx thing? But the goal and the intention is different from each ExFx?
Last edited by Kernel; 09-23-2017 at 12:49 PM.
I think that types who try to influence an IE that you feel should not be influenced eg: Fi for Fe-valuers, and vice-versa - will come across as 'not playing fair', 'doing things the dirty way'. I've had that feeling from some Fi-cre for eg, and I'm sure some people who really dislike Fe will not particularly like my way of doing things. Such is life.
Reason is a whore.
I think people may see ESEs as being manipulative because of the tremendous emotional pressure they can put on people, but I suppose the quality of being manipulative should be defined. The common definition of 'manipulative' is attempting to gain control others subtly and unethically, and I would not say that ESEs fall under this definition.
The distinction between 'manipulative' and 'controlling' should be well outlined, however, because I think that ESEs do tend to be more controlling in a direct manner - if they want something to be a particular way, they tend to express this. It's not premeditated manipulation, it's passionate expression of what they want.
Everyone is "manipulative". We deal with people as we need something from them or want to do something with them for their own needs. For this we use our best, - ego functions.Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Yes - but not everyone is equally aware of this reality, nor do they try to optimize their manipulation to the same extent.
Oh trust me I know this already. Believe me I absolutely 100% understand this quality. And believe when I tell you I absolutely appreciate this gesture of love. I do. But if we are to believe the theory, its not what I need. Which is so unfortunate because this past year could have gone so much better if it was what I needed.^This to me is a form of love. How I show I love someone and how someone can show they love me. To surprise someone with a favorite meal or well-thought out present, shows that they are really listening and paying attention to details. It is the ultimate compliment to me to receive a well-thought out gesture. Funny you mention this, I bought my IEI friend these Sour Patch watermelon candies because she mentioned she liked them once. I thought oh I need to buy them for her next time I see them and I did.
All that said I knew of an SLI who could give these little surprises...and its like "wow they are really paying attention".
I moved out of ESE place so if he is reading this know that I still love and appreciate everything he has done for me. And I wish I could have been more receptive and uplifted by the sheer wealth of Si help.
Alas, from mintute one I knew that his Si, very powerful when paired with Fe, was going to be *wrong* for me. If I had not "professionally" developed whilst staying with ESE with school courses, this past year would have been a total utter waste of my time. As it is I lost a bunch of the physical strength just living in the City and further exacerbated by being in someone elses, much stronger sensing. The wrong kind of sensing.
Having little surprise snacks in my lunch box was a nice gensture though. You guys are very thoughtful like that : D
You guys are details oriented to the Nth degree. If I left a weird thing in a weird place for sure you will spot it.
I think if we are to learn and grow from this, ESE types would do well to understand that some people LIKE when things are physically hard to do and that being tough mentally and emotionally is actually a good thing for some people. If I leave the house for a 5 hour hike with a backpack full of weight its because I wanted to. And I dont want to have to justify nor explain myself to you. Your Si makes you more selfish than you think you are even if sometimes you are using it for good. And the majority is for good dont get me wrong.
Hard to beat those little lunch box snacks.
That just seems helpful. Maybe it's because based on past experience you know the person is often manipulative and so you've come to associate these behaviors at large with being manipulative.
Everyone's approach to showing love and affection is different, and so is what they really want in their heart of hearts.
Matching those up with another person's preferences is really hard.
Personally, it would never occur to me to put snacks in my SO's lunch box.
this ESE did not want ANY Si caregiving in return...at all. Maybe massages, that was it. Very territorial about love and affection shown in kind to the kind he produces. I can say with certainty that this was not what he wanted in his heart of hearts.
Yup, of course there is some things that triggered past conditioning. I don't associate these behaviours in particular as being anymore manipulative than any other behaviours if we are going off my definition of the word manipulative.
Any action, non-action, meant to illicit a response is a form of manipulation. Notice I never talked about the pay off for him..or "what is in it for him" although I had asked that awhile back and obtained a satisfactory answer.
Manipulation need not be nefarious, it does not need to be negative. It can be both open and covert.
Look, this was just my opinion to the OP. Sorrows said any reply, and this was mine. You can see this behaviour as helpful, and it is. And I seem like a dick for pointing it out. And yes I am aware of where and why it touches on for me..still, I can't put my finger conclusively on *why* I personally find it manipulative (*and* helpful)..it just is.
Maybe i just didn't need/want this kind of help. I'm not ungrateful.
Nah, just a thought. Nothing to feel bad about. Usually when people say manipulative they mean particularly malignant manipulations.
Let’s assume that everyone is oriented to accept the behavior of their dual. (Assuming their duals are not nuts.)
An LII at work today was complaining about a customer’s failure to model something correctly, and said he was dumbfounded. I told the LII that he should instead say he was amazed and disappointed, because I would not associate the word “dumb” with any condition that the LII might find himself in.
I felt a bit bad about this as I said it, because I thought it was manipulative although the intention was just to make him feel better about dealing with idiot customers (and it wasn’t a lie because the guy is really freaking smart), but the LII got really, genuinely happy. Maybe LII’s are blind to manipulation by flattery. Presumably, by ESE's, but maybe this extends.
That sounds like a bad pick-up line.
Yeah, I'd never use that in a bar.
Mhm, suuuuure.Yeah, I'd never use that in a bar.
Most Ijs are not very subject to manipulation unless they're not that bright; their disconnected thinking style gives them an objective perspective - that sober third person. INTjs can be naïve; I always seem to know what people are after but can be blind to their motivations. I have found that ESE motivations are written on their sleeves; although they do try to manipulate, they seem to do so with transparency but this process often translates into trying to wear someone down - a nagging approach.
a.k.a. I/O
Yeah, maybe not subject to manipulation as much as "oh this person has said a nice thing to me. Isn't that nice!" which made the LII feel happier. If the problem persisted he would not have dropped it, and he would have continued to complain about the customer - I don't think he could have been manipulated if the issue was still upsetting his Ti opinion about how things should be modelled. But I think he was just in a bad mood and the Fe was an effective way to make him feel happier. LIIs love happy, supportive, warm environments, and perhaps your comment may have just let the LII feel like "oh that's right, I'm in a happy, supportive, warm environment here."
Warm Regards,
Clowns & Entropy
I'm the only one who's been able to pull me out of my bad moods. Everyone likes a nonthreatening environment but I've preferred to have predictability over support, and I certainly dislike any coddling regardless of how happy and warm it is......
a.k.a. I/O
True, when people talk about a person using Fe they often do so in a manner that makes it sound manipulative. They do not consider that a Te person is just as manipulative when they come along and fix something they see as incorrect. Its not necessarily, most often not at all, malignant as you say.
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