What is the differences between a dualized SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI & a SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI who is not dualized?
Dualized Betas...
What is the differences between a dualized SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI & a SLE/LSI/EIE/IEI who is not dualized?
IEI, sp/sx 4w3.
What's difference between having a notion of the meaning of life, and experiencing the meaning of life.
STs: more empathetic, generous, caring; seem more "human"
NFs: more stable, driven, less moody; have a sense of direction
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
stable... oh yes... and productive....Originally Posted by Gilly
"What is love?"
"The total absence of fear," said the Master.
"What is it we fear?"
"Love," said the Master.
I chose Love
Are we defining dualization as just 'having a dual around' or does it have to be a romantic dual relationship?
What I mean is, does the fact that my father is LSI and my best friend is LSI make me a 'dualized' individual?
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3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp
I think it has to do with a significant interaction with a dual. If the interaction is with a partner... there are certain advantages but I don't think is necessary to be a romantic relationship.
I don't care who whips my butt into action.
"What is love?"
"The total absence of fear," said the Master.
"What is it we fear?"
"Love," said the Master.
I chose Love
They are fitter, happier, more productive, comfortable, not drinking too much, regular exercise at the gym, 3 days a week, getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries at ease, eating well, no more microwave dinners and saturated fats, a patient better driver, a safer car, baby smiling in back seat, sleeping well, no bad dreams, no paranoia, careful to all animals, never washing spiders down the plughole, keep in contact with old friends, enjoy a drink now and then, will frequently check credit at moral bank, hole in wall, favors for favors, fond but not in love.
allez cuisine!
I love Idolatrie
On the original thread question: Erm, I can attest to this somewhat because I have two very close LSI friends (not my duals?) and ever since university began for all of us, we've been separated. It feels like I'm empty, unfulfilled, not a bad pain or anything but a dull ache that is almost unnoticeable at times. We used to say that whenever we'd talk, LSIs and I, it would be like therapy for either of us. It honestly would be so helpful; I would go home and feel 10x better about myself, life, the world. Somehow we just understood each-other and without them in my life, I feel ... lost. I need direction or something. I don't know. I was a lot happier when I saw them everyday and I could vent out all my problems, actually GET solutions, workable ones, for them!
My IEI boyfriend and I just seem to reach a dead end with problems. It's not like being with someone who has Se and Ti in their ego. Jeez, it's really accurate when they say identicals can not help each-other because they're just so similar.
So dualised Betas become Delta? Talk about a rough deal...
3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp
dualised: cool
not dualised: a bit scary, either in a Se way or a Fe way
the same goes for the deltas, i think
way cool avatar. Makes me want to like u
n00bIEE
I become a Healthy Robot.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
... (noises)
... (more noises)
... (silence)
...
dualized betas make me jealous. Cause I feel like they're getting what I need. beware the envy of a 4.
that said, I do have a friend who's SLE and I always come away from our interactions feeling great. Like I can do anything. I get an extra measure of motivation from him and new hope. but it fades after awhile...
IEI-Fe 4w3
Didn't you start a thread about Se/Ni appreciation?dualized betas make me jealous. Cause I feel like they're getting what I need. beware the envy of a 4.
that said, I do have a friend who's SLE and I always come away from our interactions feeling great. Like I can do anything. I get an extra measure of motivation from him and new hope. but it fades after awhile...
Yup. I appreciate it when I can get it. But I don't get enough of it to consider myself dualized on a regular basis (he's married to another IEI and I'm married to ESE).
IEI-Fe 4w3
I love Idolatrie
I think I'm calmer, a bit more balanced, around my dual. Usually I spend a lot of time around unefille, but this past summer I was socialising a lot without her. And I think I felt more pressure to be 'on', more conscious of every little action and interaction around me. I think being around her creates a kind of little bubble or buffer between us and others, that we can slip into each other's orbit and find a really smooth mode of interaction where I don't need to hyperanalyse every little event.
I mean, I was hanging out with my identical a lot, and I also didn't really feel I needed to be 'on' around him, I could just say and do whatever, and he'd understand perfectly. In fact, that kind of perfect understanding really surprised me, I don't think I've ever found that before. But it is so much more complicated with him, because I don't think either of us has (or is willing to) define our relationship so that's always there in the background, being problematic.
allez cuisine!
Actually, if I took the past summer as an example, I think the effects of dualisation are clear. I spent it on vacation (for about 3 months) overseas without either idolatrie or my father. The previous year I spent about 3 months overseas away from home, but with idolatrie. If you compare the two experiences, it's pretty clear that the LSI provides stability, calm and grounding to the EIE.
Unlike last summer, when idolatrie and I had a lovely vacation together, having fun in an orderly, well-planned and rather productive/sober way (we had goals, we had early mornings and regular hours, we had a list of destinations and daily itineraries), I spent this vacation: sleeping in until 2 hours before I needed to go out, going out all the time, spending most of my nights in clubs/at parties/cabbing from one place to another, drifting from one hedonistic high to another, basically, completely unanchored. I had no routine, my emotional mood swings got pretty extreme at points and I just felt I couldn't come to a resting point at all, was swinging around like a pendulum in a storm.
I think the way it works is that I get really bored easily and I something that I can pour out my emotional energy at/into. Without my dual, I have all this excess to get rid of, almost, and so, in short, I go a little crazy/wild. On the other hand, when I am with my dual, I'm much more content to just stay at home and basically throw all my emotional energy at them, after which, I am nice and calm and they go from robot to human (I'm just joking...right?) And they keep their lives so structured and 'on-track' that it's so easy just to fall back on their structures when my own flimsy self-imposed ones collapse, as they routinely and inevitably do, giving way to my moods/whimsies etc.
I think the fact that my dad was LSI gave me a sense of stability when I was growing up and kept me from going as off-track as I have otherwise. I don't have stories about wild nights and emotional meltdowns (well, I do, but they could have been SO MUCH WORSE, you know? Because I can totally be that crazy bitch who starts setting things on fire and breaking glasses in the middle of an emotional 'moment' whilst in a public place, like a nightclub, after drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney to try and drown out the voices inside, especially during the more hormonal days of being a teenager), but I'm more emotionally healthy, mature and intact. And SANE. So, it's a pretty good trade-off, I think.
3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp
crazy.
sounds boringUnlike last summer, when idolatrie and I had a lovely vacation together, having fun in an orderly, well-planned and rather productive/sober way (we had goals, we had early mornings and regular hours, we had a list of destinations and daily itineraries), I spent this vacation: sleeping in until 2
that sounds mor like mehours before I needed to go out, going out all the time, spending most of my nights in clubs/at parties/cabbing from one place to another, drifting from one hedonistic high to another, basically, completely unanchored. I had no routine, my emotional mood swings got pretty extreme at points and I just felt I couldn't come to a resting point at all, was swinging around like a pendulum in a storm.
heh.I think the way it works is that I get really bored easily and I something that I can pour out my emotional energy at/into. Without my dual, I have all this excess to get rid of, almost, and so, in short, I go a little crazy/wild. On the
humans are good.other hand, when I am with my dual, I'm much more content to just stay at home and basically throw all my emotional energy at them, after which, I am nice and calm and they go from robot to human (I'm just joking...right?)
hahaAnd they keep their lives so structured and 'on-track' that it's so easy just to fall back on their structures when my own flimsy self-imposed ones collapse, as they routinely and inevitably do, giving way to my moods/whimsies etc.
have you done stimulants before?I think the fact that my dad was LSI gave me a sense of stability when I was growing up and kept me from going as off-track as I have otherwise. I don't have stories about wild nights and emotional meltdowns (well, I do, but they could have been SO MUCH WORSE, you know? Because I can totally be that crazy bitch who starts setting things on fire and breaking glasses in the middle of an emotional 'moment' whilst in a public place, like a nightclub, after drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney to try and drown out the voices inside, especially during the more hormonal days of being a teenager), but I'm more emotionally healthy, mature and intact. And SANE. So, it's a pretty good trade-off, I think.
McBain has been flushing too many spiders down his holes.
The difference between a dualized and a non-dualized Beta must look kinda like the difference between Silke and Aylen. Or between Strrrng and BnD/crazedrat.
Last edited by Amber; 05-03-2015 at 05:27 PM.
Duals just make you lazy and needy if you rely on them to cover your weaknesses and do everything for you.Some of my SLE duals have helped push me out of my comfort zone and do things I didn't believe I could do or even know that I wanted to do BUT other types have done the same. ILI hit me with that Te until I had to suck it up and deal with it. If it wasn't for an ILI I would have never gone back to school. The biggest difference is that I am less inclined to get seriously angry with an SLE dual for pushing too hard. Of course all this is hindsight since I didn't even know what a dual was until I joined here. Romantic dual relationships should be like some kind of end of life reward. After the world has had it's way with you. <3
So dualised Betas become Delta? Talk about a rough deal...
Well, that would explain some things I have observed.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
This.
I recall strrrng grew up with LII father or so ... which confirms my hypothesis about dualization as an incorporation/strengthening of functions, not as laziness and dependency on duals/others.
i don't know whether there are really perceivable differences .. for me duality is a pretty invisible thing. internally i feel calmer, more confident, happier being myself, less anxious too, the feeling of 'perfect' moments (perfectly located in time and space, there is no one else where i want to be) but on the outside i'm pretty much the same, i think.
but then again, the closest i come to duality are a few very close interactions in a semi-work environment (not impersonal, though) in the past year in time periods of max. 1-2 weeks each (and then being separated for a long time). not sure how long it takes or what it needs until you see the 'results' of duality (like: "this IEI is actually productive", or something).
what really throws me off course is when we're separated. after i said goodbye to the SLE last time i was perfectly fine for two days. then my mood suddenly drops and i have to force myself out of bed for weeks. and the pain that something very important is missing.. like a pendulum swinging to the other extreme. :/
Last edited by lynn; 06-01-2015 at 06:47 PM.
IEE... but yeah, I agree. I think dualization implicitly has something to do with how naturally and fluidly one already is oriented toward their superid functions. without this, you're likely to get a more polarized experience, i.e. very relaxing but depressed after.
I talk to an SLE once every two weeks or so and it's always very natural and pleasant, and I've never experienced withdrawal. it's always the day after that I feel extremely Se, just disparately spanned across my environment in a kind of self-contained, surreal realm. Se is cool.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Full disclosure, as a couple of you know, I have had a dual friend living with me for a little while now because I owed them that. They have been a tremendous help in dealing with things around my house that I was clueless and/or lacked motivation to do. This frees me up from stressing over stuff I have no inclination to do so my comment about being lazy was more facetious than anything, although socionics is far from a serious matter in my perception.
But yeah one can become dependent on that but there is a certain need for healthy interdependence for someone like me. I have fought hard to be independent but when all is said and done, I can't do it all alone. They allow me to focus on things I would rather be doing like getting my computers organized and my home network running smoothly. I am not going to give them all the credit for my newfound motivation but I am sure it is an influence. Some of my "duals" on this forum have been equally motivating privately in different areas of my life.
The only reason I can see for feeling withdrawal from someone is that it is a romantic situation? Yeah I have had that happen with a couple different types so I don't think it is just a dual thing.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I experienced this brand of feeling of withdrawal outside romantic situations. I have EIE friends/acquaintances who I didn't meet for a while and I started feeling this. Also, last year I was talking to / meeting with an EIE guy for a while.. and I remember that afterwards, going home I actually felt a slight withdrawal thingie even tho' it wasn't really a romantic situation. Well sure he was into me pretty quickly but I wasn't.. I wasn't going much beyond just being friends. Yet, the communication and just being together was so good and then I got this feeling afterwards.
But overall, I don't really think I'm dualized much, I see this process as requiring more than just spending time sometimes with duals. Needs more time, more depth of communication, maybe more self-awareness too. I don't know.
Lol hmm I'm comparing this to the vacation I had with an EIE girl. I don't really want to say that it was that terribly strictly organized and planned out in much much detail as described here but yes pretty much it was organized by me. There was still some spontaneity though
Interesting viewpoint there. Does make sense considering my experiences.I think the way it works is that I get really bored easily and I something that I can pour out my emotional energy at/into. Without my dual, I have all this excess to get rid of, almost, and so, in short, I go a little crazy/wild. On the other hand, when I am with my dual, I'm much more content to just stay at home and basically throw all my emotional energy at them, after which, I am nice and calm and they go from robot to human (I'm just joking...right?) And they keep their lives so structured and 'on-track' that it's so easy just to fall back on their structures when my own flimsy self-imposed ones collapse, as they routinely and inevitably do, giving way to my moods/whimsies etc.
Yeah, that's a good way to describe that withdrawal thingie.
Heh, I also noticed this lately with my EIE friends. I temporarily feel more Fe after meeting them. That happens with a slight delay, so like, next day, yeah. It wasn't like this until recently. I'm not sure if it can also mix with the withdrawal thingie? And not sure why I'd experience this change? I'm curious if others here ever experienced anything like this. ?I talk to an SLE once every two weeks or so and it's always very natural and pleasant, and I've never experienced withdrawal. it's always the day after that I feel extremely Se, just disparately spanned across my environment in a kind of self-contained, surreal realm. Se is cool.
Do you mean experiences that support the theory and especially the concept of duality are more the exception than the rule?
Do people use duality as a metaphor for being adapted.
Or everyone is saying that you need a special someone, a dual to be not crazy.
I dunno if you're all romantics, idealists or leeches.
This is so cool, Bain. Happy for you!
I will just give one example of where being lazy and/or needy comes into play. I know how to put furniture together. I have figured it out for myself many times in the past. My ese sister and I put a whole room together by ourselves once. But with my friend, who is a dual, around, all of a sudden I kinda feel like I can't do things like that well enough anymore. I look at the instructions and get a headache. Recently I asked my IEI brother to put something together for me because I did not want to do it and I did not want to impose on my friend. My brother did it and it was put together wrong. He misjudged the force needed and screwed it too tight. The table was a bit lopsided and we were both just looking at it and decided "good enough". hahah
The truth is it wasn't good enough and it was bothering me. I wanted it to look perfect but I didn't want my brother to feel bad. I would have done it myself but I was not picking up on what he did wrong. I thought the parts may not have been aligned correctly at the factory and it might have been defective. I didn't put much thought into it. My SLE friend walks in and immediately looks at the table and knows exactly what went wrong and went to work fixing it. Took like 3 minutes. Seems like my brother and are starting to totally rely on him fixing things because we know he knows what he is doing. It comes naturally to him or something.
Before he was around, if we needed something done, we had to do it ourselves. I don't know if it is laziness or neediness but I have grown used to asking him to do things I do not want to do and I appreciate it when he does but I don't want to take advantage of anyone. There are areas though where he has made me do things I do not want to do and afterwards I feel good about it. Not resentful at all. I hate to appear weak and now I feel I may be subconsciously projecting weakness which makes my friend go into action mode to sort me out. He is also very good at praising my strengths and he downplays my weaknesses or just ignores them sometimes. He will tell me to "stop being a pussy" and do it if he thinks I am being lazy. It is like he can tell the difference. Maybe that is an intuitive sense he gets.
I realize there is a difference in romantic duality and friendship duality. I am not as emotionally invested as I would be if we were. I feel secure in our friendship and believe it is a lasting one. His Ni seeking is obvious and he takes every opportunity to listen to me when I am talking about things I am confident about. He takes my advice seriously and does not make fun of my spiritual ramblings and predictions. He actually gives me a lot of credit when it comes to forecasting how events will unfold. This friendship is very easy/comfortable. I did ask if I was asking for too much and he said no. He does not resent being asked for help. I think he kind of likes it as long as he is in charge and is appreciated for it. He has a lot of energy and is always doing things. I would be exhausted living his life.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
sadly, i think it's very easy to become dependent on a dual. for me it's not about the part doing stuff for me, or something like that, (i have other people to help me) but i'm dependent on the Se source of energy (together with Ti; SEE's can't help me with this at all) to feel less disembodied and actually leave my house without feeling that life's demands are to heavy on me. (i fall easily into long phases of inactivity where i feel lifeless and disconnected from the physical world or anything.) with a SLE around, or with the right ISTj together with a very vibrant ENFj, everything feel's fine for a moment ...
I could see you were saying a lot of the stuff about the theory that's stated by various socionics theorists is bullshit - which we totally agree on - but I wasn't clear on where you place the idea of duality in terms of that. Did you mean your experience does support the duality idea just as stated in orthodox socionics while duality* may check out less for other people?
*: I would agree that for a good relationship you do need more than duality, other factors obviously also matter so I'm not asking about that. Just simply about the factor of duality itself.
Socionics: The New Jesus!
I know Words is banned now but in case anyone else would ever get confused like him, I would like to point out that duality/a dual is a much more specific concept than simply being adapted or a special friend/partner and that's what gives the concept its value, it's about more than just generic talk about how it's good to be adapted and whatever. Of course that's also working with the assumption that it's a concept that is anchored to reality but IMO it is
Honestly your examples of being needy and lazy don't really sound as such to me. Why not delegate tasks that you are less efficient about doing, to other people if they are willing to do it? Then you can focus on what you're really good at and improve in that. And I suppose if you really need to solve such issues on your own later when your duals aren't around (hopefully only temporarily
Also, looks like your SLE friend understands how not to let you get overly lazy anyway. So I don't know how common that is with duals but that's very cool and it means duality doesn't have to result in that sort of bad laziness that you originally meant. I also relate to this myself, when helping EIEs, btw.
Hmm I guess it depends on the person too but I don't think I ever had a problem with trying to supply too much Ti to my duals. I think it kinda is natural for me to see when they need it and if not then I don't try to interfere. Like, why would I do that if I believe my dual is intelligent enough to figure out a hard task that they seem to be enjoying. The only exception so far was when one of my friends got into a very stressful life situation and she truly seemed helpless at figuring things out, then I'm sure I got a bit too interfering and she consequently became a bit overly reliant on me which I noticed quickly so then we were able to communicate that issue to each other so it was OK in the end. I'm not going to say it was not flattering in a sense that I was needed so much but I thought it was not good for her to be over-reliant like that. Really it was just her stressful situation clouding my judgment a bit too because I was involuntarily feeling too involved. I read somewhere in some article about stages of duality that duality can get into this stage - after duality already deepened a lot - where one dual in very bad stress can completely pull in the other one too. I would like to think that I can resist that if I recognize it in time, though
How do you think power dynamics are different between SLE/IEI vs LSI/IEI?
Btw, doing the taxes is fucking boring, trust me, lol. And bills, uh, keep that shit simple within a neat system.
Oh how does the Ti matter, why doesn't it work with SEEs? And what is it about LSI/EIE being around helping you, how?sadly, i think it's very easy to become dependent on a dual. for me it's not about the part doing stuff for me, or something like that, (i have other people to help me
How could you marry an ESE as an IEI Type 4?Surely, there must have been factors I don't know of (yet), but I know for myself as a fellow IEI Type 4 that it would be very unlikely for me to marry an ESE – dare I say close to impossible. Maybe it is partly you being Fe subtype that changes the dynamic for the better?
Yeah, absolutely.
Though it does not seem just a theoretical concept but something that has a basis in reality.
Again, I can only say the same, that's what SLE/IEI looks like to me..and yeah to the rest too, matches my experiences
Last edited by Myst; 05-29-2015 at 01:49 PM.
I am going through an amazing dual communication at the moment and thoughts like this make me smile. This relationship (if I can call it as such because we are not really committed in a usual societal understanding) is something really outstanding that we both have never experienced before.
I think that EIE/LSI as a rational entity presents a certain necessity to know where they both stand before switching their roles. The SLE/IEI dynamics is different since we don’t have this need to feel “equal” or to blur the lines. Our way of dealing with each other is quite gender marked (something that you may have associated with that caveman thing). I do enjoy the feeling being a fragile little thing and he totally enjoys to be the rock I can rely on. Our conversations are very fluid, both being quite closed/guarded in a different way, we are extremely sincere and open between us. We can also be extremely teasing but somehow none of us feels bad about it, I feel like I don't wreck him in his insecurities (he is really very very guarded).
In 24 hours I took 0 decisions and that was heaven. It made me feel totally energized and I talked more than I usually do. He on the other hand does need to take the lead but I have a kind of calming even balancing influence on him.
I could feel comfortable in an "equal" relationship, but I could not stand feeling superior. If that was the case, I would not even enter the relationship in the first place.
Interesting... I can relate to that in some way. I like this kind of dynamic in the beginning of a relationship, when both people engage in some sort of dance, and the other is sometimes close to "getting" me, but then I draw back again. Once the relationship is established, there may be some power struggles initially, but eventually I can see myself giving in at the end. Overall, it would not be a long drawn out battle, but more like a few battles in bursts for establishing greater tension, so that the accompanying release is more satisfying.
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