So, what's the deal with duality?

[wasp]

I might just be sentimental right now because I'm bleeding from the vag, but I'm curious to hear how these relationships play out in reality.

I read a short description on the forum that summarized duality relations as: a mutual understanding where intentions are easily and quickly understood, without any need to say a word, a natural appreciation for each other's strengths, without asking for anything in return, and the freedom to be yourself without the need to adjust to your partner, like in other relations. how does it work for the people who get along with (nearly) everybody, though? such as Ep types. how do you distinguish between a dual and someone who's just exceedingly affable and charming?

[niffer]

Duality is something that many people on this forum hate and mistrust. Which begs the question as to why they're even still willing to spend their time dealing with socionics at all in the first place, since duality is one of the cornerstones of the theory. What I really think these viewpoints boil down to is: 1) Hating blind optimism and not wanting to be associated with being a blind optimist sheep, and 2) Not wanting to get their own hopes up only to be brought down and shattered in the case they have a failed end game for themselves.

A good example of dual interactions would be you and I interacting @paranoid , and yes you're IEI final to me now.

[ClownsandEntropy]

Since when do people dislike duality? Duality sounds cool! I'm holding out for some duality!

[Tigerfadder]

Since when do people dislike duality? Duality sounds cool! I'm holding out for some duality!

Tbh, it is your very opposite. Even your conflictor display traits you can admire but your dual is like.. I can see how duality is awesome but even if both of you know socionics it is hard to justify. Better to go for benefit relation.

[Adam Strange]

When I was twelve, I had a list of qualities that my future wife needed to have. They included being intelligent, about my height, thin, red hair, have a job in the sciences but not Physics, and have an interest in Astronomy. I searched for her for many years, and finally found her and married her. It turns out she was SLI to my LIE, and as socially and intellectually compatible as we were, we eventually divorced.

Something had gone wrong; my list was incomplete or misinformed. But then I discovered the concept of duality.

I came to this forum to try to get a sense of what my duals are like, but my prejudices were formed from Keirsey and YouTube, and I expected my duals to essentially be brainless strippers (low Te, high Se). iJustine videos did not do too much to dissuade me from this image. And indeed, most of my early interactions with duals, both on this forum and in real life, did not go well. A dual has very different approaches to almost everything, so if you are expecting someone to have the same priorities as you do, you are going to be disappointed. However, if you are expecting a dual to have the same values as you do, and to bring to the table strengths in areas where you are weak, then you might be pleasantly surprised.

I should say that I've met several duals IRL since arriving at this forum, and while none of those relationships have developed into intimacy, they all have left an impressively deep mark on me (and none have been brainless strippers, but are instead kind of perfect in some ways), so I'm now looking exclusively for a dual. Among other things.

I think duality works best when two people have reached a point where they don't need someone who is just like themselves, or just like one of their parents (my father is SLI), but rather appreciate someone whose strengths are complementary to their own. Duals complement each other.

Now, as for duals doing more than complementing each other occasionally, there are other hurdles to jump. Are they hot? Are they close to your Imago? Are they mentally mature or insecurely insane? Are they in a recovery program? Are there any restraining orders against them? But these are questions for your own List, and are outside the purview of Socionics.

[Chae]

We're period friends! Get well soon ok.

From the Ep + Fi ego perspective: To me, getting on well with everybody is only a surface phenomenon. I know exactly who my favorites are. I might not be 100% vocal about that since I'd rather act on it. When I like you, you'll see me sticking around, which contrasts my chaotic nature. For others, as you say, there's an adjustment. It's just that I won't make a big fuss about it and see what to work with when interacting. I can feel what is genuine and what is not from my side, but others may not. That's why I experience exactly that relief you talked about when my natural mode is appreciated.

As far as interactions on here go, my sentiment is that I don't need a filter with PoLR members, I can be very natural around them. No need to sugarcoat anything. I can be a full-on nasty prick, it's part of my core nature. But they don't care unless it comes to our mutual liking. Which is, surprise surprise, . My dual is neither affable nor charming - because that's my part - but sober-minded and comfy (and slightly prickish as well, which I enjoy because I know how it's like, and together we can laugh. #EpicWin ). So distinguishing is no problem. A person who WON'T stand out to me as yet another person I can sync with is probably my dual. Because it's not a matter of syncing per se there, just uncovering what I'm truly made of. In other words, I don't add things to conversation, but choose to subtract. TL;DR: What's up with duality as I see it is that spotting a kindred spirit beyond the umbrella of pretense is easy when you know what filter you have interacting with the world.

[Beautiful sky]

My dual is harsh and a hard ass who observes everyone and judges them, who acts like everyone's daddy and tells people what to do. LOL What's to like about that? lol

In all honesty I'm set up with them because I can read them, because I'm patient and forgiving.

[niffer]

HOLD UP @paranoid you have a vagina?

[Adam Strange]

HOLD UP @paranoid you have a vagina?

Her names for her ears are Ina and Vag. Some of her posts have the same effect on me.

[niffer]

Her names for her ears are Ina and Vag. Some of her posts have the same effect on me.

so this is regret

[Adam Strange]

so this is regret

Don't cry, niffer. We love you.

Besides, I can't stand to see a woman cry. It unnerves me.

[The Reality Denialist]

It's actually super comfortable to have appreciation of same kind of silliness from different viewpoints.

This is what happened in teacher's lounge:
SEI: I find this demonstration to do in classroom.
Me: Interesting. You know end result is quite analogous to inkblot test.
SEI: Aaah... ha ha. Never thought that. There would be bunch of pupils waiting for psychological examination in no time!
Me: Exactly.

[DirectorAbbie]

A dual is the person who values the same functions as you but has opposite strengths. As opposed to a conflictor, who has opposite strengths and opposite values, or a quasi, who has opposite values and the same strengths.
Niffer's opening sentence is basically hogwash. Duality is desired and sought by many forumites. I have even seen signs of gamodualurano.

gamodualurano n a. the belief that a dual marriage is heaven. b. the belief that all functional couples are duals.

I have interacted with many duals. I have also observed duals. And the communication part isn't as strong as we are led to believe. Some duals communicate almost seamlessly. Others have frequent misunderstandings. I think duals are only the third-best for communication: mirrors first (maybe second for some; I was raised by a mirror), then identicals, then duals, then supervision. But they are the most fun to be around out of those four, because they're different and supply a way of thinking that you like yet can't really supply to yourself.

[niffer]

Niffer's opening sentence is basically hogwash. Duality is desired and sought by many forumites.

Examples incoming. (Absolutely incredible how you missed the one just a few posts above your own!) :

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1179868
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1176172
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1176186
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ull=1#post1129
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l-not-Match-up
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ls-and-Duality <-- this one less so but it shows how some people are shaky in their faith of the theory or not too knowledgeable on it

Not to be a dick and hit your polr, but just because you have yet to see or notice something does not mean that it doesn't exist. You also seemed to fail to take into account how your own post contradicts your own claim against the desire for duality from forumites.

[Adam Strange]

I think about a third or a quarter of the couples I see might be dual pairs. I'm so jealous that they have found each other.

The fact that I usually like my duals and find them to be on the same page as me, but that I don't lust after them, makes me wonder how seriously broken I am. Like a monkey who was raised with a wire-frame and cloth mother.

[DirectorAbbie]

I stand corrected: some people seem thoroughly disillusioned. It appears to be a recent development (discounting the outlier).

I think the problem might be that instead of thinking duality means that instead of duals having a better likelihood than others of being good matches for them, they think anyone who is a dual should be someone they get along well with, discounting other factors. My overall experience with duals has been positive, but there have been exceptions. My overall experience with duals has also been platonic. And I'm not physically attracted to duals. (But to be fair, I'm not physically attracted to anyone.) I also haven't had much more romantic inclination toward duals than to others. But they have a very good likelihood of quickly becoming my friend, and even passing interactions with them are pleasant.

[DirectorAbbie]

I think about a third or a quarter of the couples I see might be dual pairs. I'm so jealous that they have found each other.

The fact that I usually like my duals and find them to be on the same page as me, but that I don't lust after them, makes me wonder how seriously broken I am. Like a monkey who was raised with a wire-frame and cloth mother.

No, that's normal. And lust is bad; I believe it would taint any relationship, except possibly a marital one.

I don't know about other dual pairs, but for EII/LSE pairs, we like to do an us-versus-them thing. Mostly lighthearted, like when BG and I agree on what time it really is to outvote a third person from a different timezone. And I think "on the same page," as you mentioned, is related to this.

[Bertrand]

We're period friends! Get well soon ok.

From the Ep + Fi ego perspective: To me, getting on well with everybody is only a surface phenomenon. I know exactly who my favorites are. I might not be 100% vocal about that since I'd rather act on it. When I like you, you'll see me sticking around, which contrasts my chaotic nature. For others, as you say, there's an adjustment. It's just that I won't make a big fuss about it and see what to work with when interacting. I can feel what is genuine and what is not from my side, but others may not. That's why I experience exactly that relief you talked about when my natural mode is appreciated.

As far as interactions on here go, my sentiment is that I don't need a filter with PoLR members, I can be very natural around them. No need to sugarcoat anything. I can be a full-on nasty prick, it's part of my core nature. But they don't care unless it comes to our mutual liking. Which is, surprise surprise, . My dual is neither affable nor charming - because that's my part - but sober-minded and comfy (and slightly prickish as well, which I enjoy because I know how it's like, and together we can laugh. #EpicWin ). So distinguishing is no problem. A person who WON'T stand out to me as yet another person I can sync with is probably my dual. Because it's not a matter of syncing per se there, just uncovering what I'm truly made of. In other words, I don't add things to conversation, but choose to subtract. TL;DR: What's up with duality as I see it is that spotting a kindred spirit beyond the umbrella of pretense is easy when you know what filter you have interacting with the world.

I really like this because its easy to get the impression from IEE that they would want someone who's as gregarious as them; but the truth is they have that base covered and aren't really looking for more of that. The idea that they're looking for someone who even upsets that dynamic a little, but in doing so causes them to come to terms with their truest self is a little counter intuitive at first, but makes a whole lot of sense. Because if they can essentially manipulate every social situation to their liking, how else are they to find something grounded in what's real when its so easy to just "make things work" (fake it) with creative Fi? SLI sort of holds their feet to the fire a little bit and they appreciate that, because otherwise they can get bogged down in the futility of total relativism (I imagine there's some real dark nights of the soul for IEE). At first it sounds really great, and inasfar as shallow relations go, it is very effective; but at the bottom of it there's a kind of nihilism lurking if that's all there really is to human interaction for them. So they want someone they can trust isn't going to mindlessly fall into that dynamic and actually respect what that person brings, when most the world is just mad cause Fe PoLR spoiled the mood or whatever

sometimes I think IEEs must think I'm a total retard so this gave me a lot of hope that that's not the case

[Chae]

I really like this because its easy to get the impression from IEE that they would want someone who's as gregarious as them; but the truth is they have that base covered and aren't really looking for more of that. The idea that they're looking for someone who even upsets that dynamic a little, but in doing so causes them to come to terms with their truest self is a little counter intuitive at first, but makes a whole lot of sense. Because if they can essentially manipulate every social situation to their liking, how else are they to find something grounded in what's real when its so easy to just "make things work" (fake it) with creative Fi? SLI sort of holds their feet to the fire a little bit and they appreciate that, because otherwise they can get bogged down in the futility of total relativism (I imagine there's some real dark nights of the soul for IEE). At first it sounds really great, and inasfar as shallow relations go, it is very effective; but at the bottom of it there's a kind of nihilism lurking if that's all there really is to human interaction for them. So they want someone they can trust isn't going to mindlessly fall into that dynamic and actually respect what that person brings, when most the world is just mad cause Fe PoLR spoiled the mood or whatever

sometimes I think IEEs must think I'm a total retard so this gave me a lot of hope that that's not the case

Exactly. One man's retard is another one's treasure. <--- Duality in a frickin nutshell

Indeed, we have #GregariousGalore already, looking for the opposite that brings the "anchor" to the relation and sorts out the mayhem. Yes yes, the dark nights are there. From what I've got from any SLI, they skip that bs, including the emptiness/nihilism part. SLI says, "here, stuff yourself with cake and the world is different" When someone spoils the mood, I find that 1) interesting to analyze since it says a lot about social customs and 2) a refreshing feeling. The mood in general fluctuates anyway, what matters is that you're on good terms, that's Fi>Fe.

[FDG]

It's the most stable relationship when everything else also lines up

[Chae]

It's the most stable relationship when everything else also lines up

Yep, the everything else part is super important and highly complex. Paradoxically, socionics literature states that being in a duality constellation is the best to have when you're in difficult times or a difficult environment.

[Tigerfadder]

Exactly. One man's retard is another one's treasure. <--- Duality in a frickin nutshell

I like this quote a lot!

[Tigerfadder]

On the topic, is the goal to find a dual and than do nothing just flow on each others energy? Or is it that you can live in symbios and become more than the sum?

If everyone went for their benefit (maybe women->male or opposite) the society would flow better, is this what is going on in Gulenkos mind? Also if everyone went with supervision the flow would be a bit different... And finally, it seem to be standards made by society what make you be attractive to some type or ITR and not other. If big money or whatever gain from everyone going into a supervision relationship, in this area you would be more attractive towards being supervised or supervising. You know... ;p

[Chae]

Gotta spazz since the opportunity popped up.

My dual is harsh and a hard ass who observes everyone and judges them, who acts like everyone's daddy and tells people what to do. LOL What's to like about that? lol

They literally do (=Te) everything for you o.O And then they are also caretakers who make you feel good hdlkdjöksj they are some fine humans how do we even deserve that. TeSi is almost like a fine-tuned machine on two legs who is also cute and sensual HRRGGHHH >////< They astound me so much. I mean, and the harsh judgy telling what to do part... we need people like that to get things done in Delta! Don't worry I won't steal your dual I'm just glorifying them a bit

[Rebelondeck]

I've said before that duality is indicative of what types may need, and not necessarily what they want; duality is about balance not passion. Also, people, who do not acknowledge their own shortcomings may not see the strengths in another and will have a hard time accepting the fact that they may need a certain 'type' of help, especially when ones that promise romance are readily available down the street. Unfortunately sexual attraction and compatibility are mutually exclusive. And, duality is really unnecessary for independent individuals who are not raising families; desire likely would be better fulfilled by alternate pairings even though the relationships may be temporary. In this age of selfies, most people seem to look at themselves (and others) more but analyse less so the odds are stacked against dual relationships........

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

I've said before that duality is indicative of what types may need, and not necessarily what they want; duality is about balance not passion. Also, people, who do not acknowledge their own shortcomings may not see the strengths in another and will have a hard time accepting the fact that they may need a certain 'type' of help, especially when ones that promise romance are readily available down the street. Unfortunately sexual attraction and compatibility are mutually exclusive. And, duality is really unnecessary for independent individuals who are not raising families; desire likely would be better fulfilled by alternate pairings even though the relationships may be temporary. In this age of selfies, most people seem to look at themselves (and others) more but analyse less so the odds are stacked against dual relationships........

a.k.a. I/O

I agree. It takes a lot of adjusting for a dual who hasn't known a dual to drop all the socially learned expectations and adjust to a dual. Since most women in society are S types N are bound to conform to S society

[Rebelondeck]

.......Since most women in society are S types.......

I recall reading somewhere many years ago that less than a third of people were N-types, less than a third of women were T-types and less than a third of men were F-types. If this were true, there wouldn't be enough duals to go around and large imbalances in type would imply that duality may not be a natural state. Survival of the fittest for the societies that existed must have caused any imbalances. Perhaps if societies liberalize and stay peaceful, type statistics will even out.

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

I recall reading somewhere many years ago that less than a third of people were N-types, less than a third of women were T-types and less than a third of men were F-types. If this were true, there wouldn't be enough duals to go around and large imbalances in type would imply that duality may not be a natural state. Survival of the fittest for the societies that existed must have caused any imbalances. Perhaps if societies liberalize and stay peaceful, type statistics will even out.

a.k.a. I/O

Why would you assume that duality is a universally advantageous condition? Like happiness, there is no reason to believe that it has evolutionary or reproductive advantages.

In fact, if you were attracted to someone with whom you were not very compatible, by the time you found that out, you'd most likely have some offspring. Then, you go off in search of someone else whom you find attractive (but who is also not entirely compatible, you slut). Thus, your genes would enjoy the widest mixing possible and would produce many variations, and this has been shown to confer fitness advantages to a population.

So, feel free to have sex with that person who is hot but wildly unsuitable to you. Natural selection will bless some of your offspring.

[Rebelondeck]

Why would you assume that duality is a universally advantageous condition? ........

Obviously an LII who wasn't clear. I thought I implied the opposite. I think that type has to be adaptive to a certain extent depending on the society in which people are born. There has to be advantages to other than dual or there'd be more.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

Obviously an LII who wasn't clear. I thought I implied the opposite. I think that type has to be adaptive to a certain extent depending on the society in which people are born. There has to be advantages to other than dual or there'd be more.......

a.k.a. I/O

It is my turn to use the word "opposite" . I think that society adapts to the types of people in it.

If you've ever wondered why the US was so innovative and capitalist in the late 19th century, I think you could look at preferential emmigration of LIE's from Europe. LIE's are a type most likely to get up and move to some new place when conditions prevent their talents from being used, and I think a lot of them left Europe and moved to the US, and in the process, changed what the general society found to be acceptable.

I attribute the lack of innovation in the US in the middle part of the 20th century to the decline of immigrants in general, and LIE's specifically. I have a pet theory that all societies have an equilibrium point, with so many SLI's, SEI's, and fewer IEI's and LIE's, and this is necessary to have a generally stable social organism that can still adapt to some externally forced changes, without having so many change agents that the society becomes destabilized.

If, like @Aylen, you resist the idea that LIE's are special snowflakes, able to transform a society with new inventions and new methods of financing businesses, then you might want to take a look at this article:

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2017/03/...racy-possible/

Almost all the LIE's I know are pretty far from being social democrats. I'm easily the most liberal LIE I know.

I also know that Vienna prides itself on being a musical city, but it actually hasn't produced much new music since the Nazies rid the city of Jewish musicians. Just another example of how changing the makeup of a society will change the society itself.

[Rebelondeck]

@Adam Strange I would have attributed the success of the US to untapped natural resources, democracy and free enterprise not because of a certain type. I think there were quite a few movers and shakers that weren't LIE. Wasn't George Washington LSE? I think that he may have been ESE which was demonstrated when he allowed the US to become a democracy; it likely would not have happened if he were LIE......

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

Exactly. One man's retard is another one's treasure. <--- Duality in a frickin nutshell

Supervision: genious-retards? Only a mild brain damage.
Semi-duals: semi-ingenious package of occasional delight.
Mirage: Would work out in parallel universe.
Benefactor: You just need some adjustments.
Kindred: We have different maps so you head over there...
Quasi-identical: What the heck drives that person...
Mirror: Oh, the person is just bit different version of me.
Activity: Nice but maybe bit too nice.
Conflictor: If the world was full persons like you I'd commit a suicide. It's easy to ignore otherwise.
Super-ego: Whatever... that's kind of retarded but there's a room for betterment.
Look-a-like: Umm... yes... maybe
Extinguishment: Very similar result but just backwards.

[Eliza Thomason]

I am married 3 years to my SLI-Si Dual. Its so comfortable and so safe. I can really be myself completely. I love it. I still find myself amazed that married life can be so peaceful and so desirable, vs. a constant worry and a constant work, like my first "marriage". [The quotes are because my Church says that that marriage, which looked like a marriage to everyone in the world, was in fact "not a marriage" - and I believe Her].

Its so easy we can "forget" each other, and then I am the one to see us falling into that and I initiate more together-things, like, lets take a hike, or lets find a book to read aloud together (vs. just watching TV together, which we easily gravitate to - and I love watching everything entwined together on the couch. But, too much of a good thing sometimes...). Whenever we have a challenge, we work on it together. Big things like my Mom taking a turn for the worse this year so we had to work together in a new way, to small things - everything, really. Like its really been bothering me that we keep don't keep the floor clean; we both do other things and do that job last, so, we bought the robo-vacuum this week, after I researched it and brought the suggestion to him, and figured out how to best pay for it, and he was on board, so I bought it, and he is the one who unpacked it and got it going and set up. This week the toilet is leaking through the ceiling which I know nothing about but he looked up the part, I ordered it from Home Depot and drove out to pick it up the front desk. He put it in - I'm no plumber, but he can do this (he does not like it but he wants to save money), and run around doing all kinds of other things we need done, including making our meals, something nice after that un-fun work. When we have guests, or just because I feel like it, I can try any new recipes and not get overwhelmed because my husband is my sous chef. He just makes everything easier. Whatever comes up we find a way to work it out together. Its so easy, so functional. : )