Looking at context and outter circumstances and Se-Fi of ESFps

[Beautiful sky]

Dear SEE types,

Ann and I were discussing if Se types can do what Ne types do in this thread...

What you wrote in red in that linked post is wrong.
----

delta NFs are very much interested in what's going on psychologically and emotionally within a person's psyche. Ne helps them step out of their own viewpoint, and into the shoes of others.

Ann, isn't this more Fi than Ne; stepping into someone's shoes or empathizing? Isn't Fi more of your own feelings about what's going on with someone else; for instance, when someone you know and care about gets hurt, you can either empathize with them or sympathize; I see empathy as "oh no, what you're going through makes me sad" in which case, I'm more inclined to post a sad impression like .

Sympathy is more like "that person is going through that emotion" and "aww, that's sad" and not "I feel really bad with your."

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post878441

Ne helps with seeing the essence of a person's situation, what that person is going through.

Could this be done with Se in your opinion? Why or why not?

I think Se types could step out of their normal frame of reference and do this, but I don't believe that this is something that an Se type would primarily identify themself with...unless this was their job. If it was their job, I can imagine how it might have been an idealization, but that after spending time doing the job that it would wear and tear on them, rather than having energizing moments like an NF would get.

With that said, however, I think that there are some psychologically therapeutic techniques that would be more suited to get from an Se+Fi type than an Ne+Fi type.

For example, an Se type would be more concerned with the outter circumstances of the situation rather than what's going on inside the client's mind. So if Claire needed help figuring out how to alter the external portions of her situation, an Se type might have more ideas on how to do so. (Clients needing this type of help would more likely drain the NF who is more interested in what's going on inside.)

Do you agree that this may also relate to you?

[anndelise]

Correction: Maritsa is wondering if Se types can step out of their own emotions/values and see things from another's pov.
I was saying that Se types CAN, but it would probably exhaust them to do that regularly, (like for a job), rather than be energized by it like an NF would. But that Se types would be more energized focusing on the external portions of a person's situation and how to alter those, which would likely exhaust an NF type.

For the full conver and context of the OP:

 

Let's go over post in the op


(dynamic) perceives internal reactions to sensory data. Each perception of the same thing can be different depending on the observer's changing internal state.

This, because the person is perceiving the way other people are reacting when talking about me.

What you wrote in red in that linked post is wrong.
----

delta NFs are very much interested in what's going on psychologically and emotionally within a person's psyche. Ne helps them step out of their own viewpoint, and into the shoes of others. So in the case of FiNe, they may initially start out with their own values/judgments, but their Ne opens their minds up further towards recognizing and observing that other people have their own values/judgments...and then stepping into those people's shoes, to get their viewpoints, as needed.

In the context of what she wrote, there were already plenty of writings about what infps thought were going on. Agarina has shown a full ability to comprehend the written word..and meanings from it. So it,s not a huge step to have included those observations others had written about, in that paragraph you're trying to type.

Having included other people's viewpoints does not mean that she used Fe to get those views.

Ann, isn't this more Fi than Ne; stepping into someone's shoes or empathizing? Isn't Fi more of your own feelings about what's going on with someone else; for instance, when someone you know and care about gets hurt, you can either empathize with them or sympathize; I see empathy as "oh no, what you're going through makes me sad" in which case, I'm more inclined to post a sad impression like .

Sympathy is more like "that person is going through that emotion" and "aww, that's sad" and not "I feel really bad with your."

Fi helps you use your own emotional reactions to guide you through your understanding of something. But these are YOUR feelings, noone elses. Just like those emotions help you develop your personal values, those values are YOUR personal values, not necessarily anyone elses.

Ne helps with seeing the essence of a person's situation, what that person is going through. Because Delta NF includes Fi, then the Delta NF is aware that as the person is going through a personal situation, then that person is also experiencing his/her OWN emotions regarding it. Delta NF would also be aware that the person has his/her own experiences, attitudes regarding things, and thus his/her own value system that s/he has developed and is responding from.

Now, if Claire tells me a story of her husband leaving her,*
A) if I used my own values that marriage should last forever, and if I would feel sad if MY husband left me, and if i assumed she shared my values, then I would assume that she would be sad too, and so I would feel sorry for her sadness. But this isn't empathy, because I'd be projecting MY OWN emotions on to her, and expecting that she feels the same way as *I* would.

B) but if I asked her questions and learned from her that she had married him only because she'd wanted to leave her parents home and couldn't find a way except through marriage, and that she was happy that he was gone and she could finally stand on her own two feet and prove herself to herself, then I would be using HER emotions, HER values, as a guide as to how SHE feels, regardless of how I would feel, and regardless of my own values. So I temporarily set aside my own emotions/values and look at HER situation through HER eyes, and I gain a clearer picture of what is going on in HER.

If I were a psychologist, option A would lead to Claire feeling as if I didn,t understand her, or that I was trying to force emotions and values onto her that didn't belong to her, nor her situation.
But option B would allow me to tailor any advice or assistance to suit Claire's particular situation and Claire's particular emotions/values. Claire would feel understood, and likely even feel that her responses are being validated.

Could this be done with Se in your opinion? Why or why not?

I think Se types could step out of their normal frame of reference and do this, but I don't believe that this is something that an Se type would primarily identify themself with...unless this was their job. If it was their job, I can imagine how it might have been an idealization, but that after spending time doing the job that it would wear and tear on them, rather than having energizing moments like an NF would get.

With that said, however, I think that there are some psychologically therapeutic techniques that would be more suited to get from an Se+Fi type than an Ne+Fi type.

For example, an Se type would be more concerned with the outter circumstances of the situation rather than what's going on inside the client's mind. So if Claire needed help figuring out how to alter the external portions of her situation, an Se type might have more ideas on how to do so. (Clients needing this type of help would more likely drain the NF who is more interested in what's going on inside.)

May I test your theory?

It's not like anyone here can stop you.?.
But if you are going to use your 'test' to prove something, please provide objective proof rather than your own subjective reasoning...if you present the facts, then it allows other people to draw their own conclusions as well (that whole repeatability thing ).

[Slacker]

I imagine they can, but man does that conversation remind me of some arguments I've had with my ESI brother, and he generally doesn't think that way at all.

[thePirate]

Correction: Maritsa is wondering if Se types can step out of their own emotions/values and see things from another's pov.
I was saying that Se types CAN, but it would probably exhaust them to do that regularly, (like for a job), rather than be energized by it like an NF would. But that Se types would be more energized focusing on the external portions of a person's situation and how to alter those, which would likely exhaust an NF type.

For the full conver and context of the OP:

 

Empathy is NTR.

[Slacker]

There are different ways of empathizing. Being empathatic is NTR, but the specifics of what throught processes you're using IMO are.

[mfckr]

.

[JWC3]

I act on occasion and empathy is my job when I do, it doesn't exhaust me at all.

I would say slacker is right, empathy is probably not type related.

[thePirate]

There are different ways of empathizing. Being empathatic is NTR, but the specifics of what throught processes you're using IMO are.

I know people of various types who fit the above description which they 'technically' shouldn't according to those parameters. It's bullshit, and furthermore unrelated in any way to Ne as a function (as well as 'type' as a whole).

[Slacker]

This forum is getting to be such a joke. Anything even vaguely possibly related to Ni is the sole property of Ni, but anything at all related to Ne is NTR.

[anndelise]

I act on occasion and empathy is my job when I do, it doesn't exhaust me at all.

What is your method?

[Beautiful sky]

There are different ways of empathizing. Being empathatic is NTR, but the specifics of what throught processes you're using IMO are.

then wouldn't you say that people confuse the meaning of empathetic and sympathetic?

[Beautiful sky]

Correction: Maritsa is wondering if Se types can step out of their own emotions/values and see things from another's pov.
I was saying that Se types CAN, but it would probably exhaust them to do that regularly, (like for a job), rather than be energized by it like an NF would. But that Se types would be more energized focusing on the external portions of a person's situation and how to alter those, which would likely exhaust an NF type.

I disagree that Se types would get exhausted of going through empathetic processes like Delta NF.

[aixelsyd]

Definitely can, but as anndelise said, it a lot of that would prove exhausting because it requires a certain readjustment in processing information than what is natural for the person (of the SEE type) but it can be done but perhaps with less clarity and ease than for the IEE type individual. We can't "see" everything, after all.

Of course, the SEE can hold his or her own empathetic process that is probably based on direct experience in the past or present, such as being "there" at the time when something happened to personally take in the immediate circumstances of the event that requires empathy.

[Slacker]

then wouldn't you say that people confuse the meaning of empathetic and sympathetic?

Yes, although to some extent that is splitting hairs, and a lot of people feeling sympathy but not empathy are not going to realize what they're actually feeling, and you won't be able to convince them that they're really feeling sympathy but not empathy. So anyway it might be beside the point.

[Radio]

imo empathy could be vaguely correlated w/ F functions but not N. i say vaguely because a lot of what we understand as empathy is picking up on emotional and social cues when empathy is a lot more instinctual than that. if you punch a child in the nose, every person in the room is going to "feel" it regardless. watching a poor man starve to death isn't any more tragic for a delta nf than anyone else. what delta nfs are good at essentially isn't empathy per se but providing alternate perspectives, explaining people's motivations, perspectives, subjective points of view. how it differs from gamma sfs is that deltas' approach is very generic and the "perspectives" could be applied to an array of different situations because they're the "likely" options of how things must be like and how people are like. i find gamma sfs to be more narrow-focused and specfic than that, holding off until they're personally familiar with those people/situations or giving advice/explaining others' povs tailored from and for said situation.

[Beautiful sky]

I believe that Delta Fi is more an overarching thought of empathy of humanity rather (or having humanity in mind when thinking of empathy) than more towards individuals, even though Delta Fi can choose individuals to love and have genuine feelings for.

[anndelise]

I disagree that Se types would get exhausted of going through empathetic processes like Delta NF.

You argued in that thread that considering others' viewpoints was the domain of Fe, and couldn't involve Ne.

[Slacker]

Again, Maritsa, I think you're moving toward the idea that Delta NF is more evolved or something than other types.

[Beautiful sky]

You argued in that thread that considering others' viewpoints was the domain of Fe, and couldn't involve Ne.

Observing other people's emotions and repeating it is Fe; but true empathy is expressing your own emotions about what you felt. I believe what she did in that thread was not include her feelings but tried to tell everyone how things/emotions of the atmosphere was going.

[Beautiful sky]

Again, Maritsa, I think you're moving toward the idea that Delta NF is more evolved or something than other types.

You're right, I shouldn't move towards that direction. Thank you.

[anndelise]

... but true empathy is expressing your own emotions about what you felt.

For the readers of this thread, this is what I am arguing against...the idea that "true empathy is expressing your own emotions about what you felt".

[ashlesha]

imo empathy could be vaguely correlated w/ F functions but not N. i say vaguely because a lot of what we understand as empathy is picking up on emotional and social cues when empathy is a lot more instinctual than that. if you punch a child in the nose, every person in the room is going to "feel" it regardless. watching a poor man starve to death isn't any more tragic for a delta nf than anyone else. what delta nfs are good at essentially isn't empathy per se but providing alternate perspectives, explaining people's motivations, perspectives, subjective points of view. how it differs from gamma sfs is that deltas' approach is very generic and the "perspectives" could be applied to an array of different situations because they're the "likely" options of how things must be like and how people are like. i find gamma sfs to be more narrow-focused and specfic than that, holding off until they're personally familiar with those people/situations or giving advice/explaining others' povs tailored from and for said situation.

this is absolutely perfect perfect.

another thing re: this, i went to school for human services which incorporates aspects of both psychology and social work and worked briefly in the field. i know from experience and a lot of introspection that i dealt with while in that area of my life that i am much more comfortable and feel more helpful being able to provide tangible services for people (bus tokens, helping them with paperwork) than i am trying to put myself in their shoes with emotional problems that they're going through, especially if i don't know them and their situation is a blank slate to me, in which case i get kind of freaked out trying to offer help without a lot of contextual background, even if i do sympathize a lot with their situation.

[Slacker]

Hmm I think true empathy is putting yourself in someone else's place, allowing yourself to feel what they're feeling (or trying I guess), and maybe acting upon that. But not about expressing your own emotions. It's more taking in and sharing than expressing. IMO.

[mfckr]

.

[Beautiful sky]

imo empathy could be vaguely correlated w/ F functions but not N. i say vaguely because a lot of what we understand as empathy is picking up on emotional and social cues when empathy is a lot more instinctual than that. if you punch a child in the nose, every person in the room is going to "feel" it regardless. watching a poor man starve to death isn't any more tragic for a delta nf than anyone else. what delta nfs are good at essentially isn't empathy per se but providing alternate perspectives, explaining people's motivations, perspectives, subjective points of view. how it differs from gamma sfs is that deltas' approach is very generic and the "perspectives" could be applied to an array of different situations because they're the "likely" options of how things must be like and how people are like. i find gamma sfs to be more narrow-focused and specfic than that, holding off until they're personally familiar with those people/situations or giving advice/explaining others' povs tailored from and for said situation.

About the child being punched in the nose example; why then is it possible for some people to enjoy and even laugh at black humor and others like myself not so much?

[Slacker]

Punching a child in the nose isn't black humor.

[Beautiful sky]

Punching a child in the nose isn't black humor.

Pictures where a child gets punched in the face may be...wouldn't it? How about some silly thing being done to another human being?

[Slacker]

No, a picture of a kid getting punched in the face wouldn't be funny.

Dark humor is funny due to context, so there has to be some context that is amusing, but I can't imagine any situation where a kid getting punched in the face would be funny.

[Beautiful sky]

No, a picture of a kid getting punched in the face wouldn't be funny.

Dark humor is funny due to context, so there has to be some context that is amusing, but I can't imagine any situation where a kid getting punched in the face would be funny.

I meant graphic depictions of violence that may be refereed to as black humor like this one for instance; stuff like this I just can't watch because of the picturing in my mind about what will/might happen in actuality and the moral lesson it perpetuates.

[Slacker]

if they actually showed the cat getting hit, it wouldn't be funny, because it would pass over to cruel. But the idea of the kids misunderstanding the idea of a pinata is what's funny with that.

I think you have a problem understanding context and that's your problem with dark humor. I don't think this is a socionics issue.

[anndelise]

No, a picture of a kid getting punched in the face wouldn't be funny.

Dark humor is funny due to context, so there has to be some context that is amusing, but I can't imagine any situation where a kid getting punched in the face would be funny.

I think she is referring to things like "funniest home videos" or such, where a parent is yawning and stretching and accidently punches his wild-running kid in the face, knocking the kid flat and a stunned look on the kids face...kind of thing.
The ones where a viewer can both flinch and laugh at the same time.


Edited to add: sorry Slacker, I was writing up as you were posting. Your response above also applies to my example here.

[Slacker]

Ooooh, well in that case sometimes it's empathy that creates the humor. Like you can put yourself in the place and remember or imagine yourself making that mistake.

[Aquagraph]

Observing other people's emotions and repeating it is Fe; but true empathy is expressing your own emotions about what you felt. I believe what she did in that thread was not include her feelings but tried to tell everyone how things/emotions of the atmosphere was going.

Ooh, the True Empathy... Do you have a trademark on it yet?

[Beautiful sky]

if they actually showed the cat getting hit, it wouldn't be funny, because it would pass over to cruel. But the idea of the kids misunderstanding the idea of a pinata is what's funny with that.

I think you have a problem understanding context and that's your problem with dark humor. I don't think this is a socionics issue.

It's not the context but the idea.

[Slacker]

It's not the context but the idea.

If you don't see the humor, you aren't the best source for determining what makes it funny.

[Beautiful sky]

If you don't see the humor, you aren't the best source for determining what makes it funny.

Things like your avatar are funny to me

[mfckr]

.

[JWC3]

What is your method?

It depends on what I feel like. In my experience most actors as inexperienced as I am don't really have a set method. In fact some more experienced actors approach different roles with different methods too, it depends on how challenging they think the character is mostly. If they think the character is harder to play they are more willing to branch out and try new things in order to connect to it sort of.

[anndelise]

It depends on what I feel like. In my experience most actors as inexperienced as I am don't really have a set method. In fact some more experienced actors approach different roles with different methods too, it depends on how challenging they think the character is mostly. If they think the character is harder to play they are more willing to branch out and try new things in order to connect to it sort of.

Will you give an example? Maybe pick a character you enjoyed and describe how you got into being him?

[Aquagraph]

@people who bother arguing with Maritsa,

Do you do it because you find it morbidly amusing, or because you actually believe you're going to somehow talk sense into her, or what?

I'm certainly not holding any silly notions about me being able to convince her but I do what I do for the sport of it.

She actually changes her mind sometimes but she rarely, if ever, admits it. It's just as if nothing happened.
I don't rely that this change is due to those who speak against her but do remember that she feels like she's being supervised by most people.